The reality is that welfare recipients can receive more money than they can from working at low-wage jobs. And that's a problem.

No kidding, genius. Of course, it's not a problem for the people on welfare...

No wonder. Japanese employers avoid massive layoffs at all costs. Instead, they chop ALL workers salaries across the board. After a few rounds of that, and hard-working, talented people hit the poverty line with welfare-type incomes.

A few more rounds, and Japan will become a virtual slave society.

Sign me up! I currently pay enough in taxes to support 4-5 people this way. I'm ready now for my own payout.

Gah! And of course the result of this will not be that minimum wage will rise, but that benefits will fall.

After a few rounds of that, and hard-working, talented people hit the poverty line with welfare-type incomes.

The notion that all welfare recipients are talented and hardworking is false. Many didn't do well in school, didn't go to uni because they couldn't get in and some can't be bothered to get off their backside and work. Indeed, there are those that DO need help do to circumstances but I am willing to bet if you sat down with many, many think they are "owed" a better job with a decent salary when they fail to realise they well, they don't. Turning your nose up at work to go on benefits is rather sick and social problem that needs to be dealt with. The way Japan's economy is going, there will be more folks wanting handouts who think they are above PT jobs at minimum wage. NO ONE is above that.

The notion that all welfare recipients are talented and hardworking is false

I hardly believe that was the notion given. gaijinfo was merely stating that hard working, talented people are not getting jobs they deserved/earned and are now at or below the paverty line because companies are trying to save themselves money by not paying higher salaried employees in favor of less expensive workers.

Why should companies pay more when they can get people to do work for less? If people were really that skilled, they wouldn't be out of work and on the dole.

tmarie -

I do agree with most of what you are saying though. It's the same in most "industrialized" countries these days. MOST people are thinking they are owed a job, etc. And refuse to try to find a real job and try to work their way up the employment ladder.

The average monthly income is lower

Yes, incomes are scarily low.

NO ONE is above that.... PT jobs at minimum wage.

I want to see you live in Osaka, with 2 kids with LESS THAN 100 000 YEN PER MONTH. . On your own, no other help. 100 000 is roughly the current local minimum wage for full time. Let's imagine you can land a full time, or more likely 3 part-times that make a full one. Your 100 000 yen barely covers your transportations (not paid by employer, for small PT, no teiki) and -if you are not an adept of the rusuban or coin locker baby- the baby-sitting fees during the 45+ hours of work (paid 40, but you should arrive 30 minutes before...) + 10 hours commute per week. Then you're left with what ? 10 000 to 30 000 yen for rent + food + etc ? Good luck. So it's very clear they live better off with welfare providing them free housing + 30 000 yen to pay for food, etc. And the calculation counts that the public jutaku rent+utilities is worth 150 000 yen/ month (official figure that nobody ever paid, if you are not on the welfare plan, you are either in the street or in private housing and the equivalent is a 35 000 yen/month 1K gokiburi mansion). And the izakaya economist can say : "On welfare, they give you 180 000 yen every month...".

Many didn't do well in school,

Many did. That changes what ? Full time minimum wage is poverty level for a single. No family can live on minimum wage PT. It's a problem with the rate of minimum wage.

And of course the result of this will not be that minimum wage will rise, but that benefits will fall.

Maria, that's what Tmarie and the usual populist say. But the guy quote is from a NPO an he probably meant it to say workers were getting very poor.

Wage slavery is the only way the current system can go. A scary reality that we all need to wake up to. And it isn't just Japan. It is shameful when hard working people cannot make a wage that allows them to contribute to the economy as active consumers and citizens. And it is equally tragic when welfare is the only option for a lot of people.

What Japan needs, what most of the world needs are viable jobs and the distribution of wealth back into the working classes. Too much is now centered in the wealthy classes where it does not help.

Why work when you can get everything free! The same thing is happening in the U.S.A. Freeloaders are making out like charms. Meanwhile the working stiff has to pay all those taxes, some of which go toward supporting the freeloaders.

There was a time when I was laid off and got divorced too. I intended to receive welfare then which was supposed to be 150,000 a month. I was thinking then, what if I don't reached 60. All the contributions in the social security and the nenkin bunkatsu I received from my ex would just go in the air as my son is past his minority age. So it might become another maizokin. I was thinking better receive welfare as early as then. It's not that I'm lazy. I'm actually hardworking.And I did well in school too though never got to finish my MA. And yes companies will never improve nor up the salaries as they can always rely on the steady inflow of trainees while most jobs are outsourced outside Japan particularly China. Just thinking, are most factories owned by Chinese with Jcitizenship? I wonder.

Cos, why are people having kids if they can't afford to look after themselves, let alone the kids? If you had a crap job and were barely making ends meet, having kids isn't the wises thing to do, is it?

Are you forgetting that Japan offers free health care, help with school fees, lunch fees for kids? And free pension/health care for poor parents, subsidized housing...? They also offer nearly free/subsidized daycare for those under a certain salary - while those making more might not get daycare at all and if they do, end up paying nearly three times more for the same service. People can still get this if they are making up to a certain wage. Thing is, some people would rather not work and get all of this.

I'm not suggesting no help for those who need it but people need to learn to help themselves as well. Refusing to get your foot in the door and work PT for minimum wage is disgusting - more so when they are expecting handouts from tax payers. Two parents working PT 40 hours a week - and really 40 hours a week? Salarymen work much, much more so perhaps they could work up to 50 hours? - would make about 340000 (50 hours by 850 yen but 4 weeks times two) before taxes. Yep, you can get by on that. Won't be a bed of roses but isn't it better to be out working and bettering yourself than sitting at home?

Much harder to find a job when you haven't been working for six months than it is when you're working PT. I wouldn't want to hire someone who thinks they are too good for PT work and I don't doubt many companies think the same. Help for those who help themselves. Those that don't? Meh.

I could start in about salary caps for spouses and how they hurt poor folks but you've heard it all before.

The Japanese minimum wage is disgusting. As far as I know it is around 850 yen per hour. This works out to about the same equivalent as a New Zealand wage except everything is around half price of Japan. And, New Zealand has a better welfare system for unemployed , older people and support for sickness beneficiaries. Something really wrong in this so called advanced country.

Are you forgetting that Japan offers free health care, help with school fees, lunch fees for kids?

That's what welfare is. If you are not on welfare, you pay.

They also offer nearly free/subsidized daycare for those under a certain salary

In theory... when in some places the offer covers 20% of the demand of daycare (even paying). There is a margin where people earn too much to get welfare, but not enough to pay the life expenses... And an increasing number of people are trapped in that margin by the system. So they renounce to work (not to "jobs" but to some occasional hours) to maintain rights to welfare, as otherwise they risk losing work hours (like just getting a reduced scheduled due to slow activity of the employer) and they have lost the welfare but will need months to apply again.

I could start in about salary caps for spouses

Same thing.

If you had a crap job and were barely making ends meet, having kids isn't the wises thing to do, is it?

If she loses her steady job or her bread-winning husband a few years after having kids, she kills them ? I think most people didn't arrive in the situation on purpose. We have not the crowds of ghetto people that make little ones like street cats, no birth control, just lay the brat and make the next one, and then count on welfare (in Europe, yes common, here, really rare cases). But even, in spite of having done good at school, I never got a stable professional situation as that's not even legally allowed for me in Japan. So I never considered making sprogs. I'm not wise, I wouldn't be here. The only stable situations for women here are being the shufu of some decent level seishain, being of the 1% families or being of the 1% of bread-winning women with a maternity-proof career. Out of reach for 80% of Japan before Fuskushima, going toward 85%... As now about 40% have kids, if you male them all "wise", that would become 15%, Japan would not have even half of the current natality.

I'm not suggesting no help for those who need it

There are different situations in different countries, but in Japan, unless you cheat with false documents (which is a crime like being a pickpocket), you're not getting welfare without need. That's limited to families without support and to sick persons.

Salarymen work much, much more so perhaps they could work up to 50 hours? - would make about 340000 (50 hours by 850 yen but 4 weeks times two) before taxes.

The number of hours (starting at 650 yen these days) is rarely "as much as the worker wishes", they are called the days there is work, not called other days. Like you, if you want to teach the double of hours you do now, it's easy ? You just ask and they give you more hours ? If so, that's exceptional. I don't know any one that makes regularly over 150 000 yen in a normal part-time. Even if they make 25 man in June, that will be 10 man in July. Better paid jobs are out-of-normal. You can get a deal to clean the pipes in Fukushima plant or in a soapland.

really 40 hours a week?

If they are lucky to find. I know countless shufu that get their 10 man for 40 hours office work, they will never be given one paid hour more, they will never be promoted even if they get a MBA in rocket science at the night school. But they are happy to have a guaranteed complete schedule, and a job they can keep probably till they're 60. Part-time does not mean less hours, it means paid per/hour. That's one thing if you get 5000~ 20 000/hour, scheduled for 3 months to one year, as a uni teacher, first tier part-timer, there is hope to make more. Another thing to have a shufu part-time rate full time, second tier, income is blocked but steady. That's not the same as getting 650~800 yen per hour and being called the morning or the day before if they can give you hours, third tier. I know the jobs are different, that's not the point. So, there are situations in-between, but 80% of workers are in instability and 1/3 of them have no hope in this lifetime to ever get more than the bottom work conditions. It's statistically more common to win a big lottery or marry a millionaire than to climb up the "ladder" out of this.

Just thinking, are most factories owned by Chinese with Jcitizenship? I wonder.

In some industries, kind of. Depends what you call "Chinese". But they don't mean to be patriotic to China, it's more that they have facilities due to family and community connections so they chose China over... Thailand, India, etc.

That's what welfare is. If you are not on welfare, you pay.

Wrong. Perhaps you should check your facts on that.

Same thing for salary caps? No idea what you're getting at there but no, women stay under a certain range so they get free pension/health care while WE pay for it. Able bodied women not bothering to work. They're the biggest leeches of the system.

Cos, statistically speaking, she never HAD a study job and relied on her husband to be the sole breadwinner - which is a rather stupid thing to do in the economical climate Japan is in. And kill the kid? Yes, that is EXACTLY what I said. No point discussing the issue if you can't behave like an adult and discuss the topic like an adult.

I never got a stable professional situation as that's not even legally allowed for me in Japan.

?? It there a no Cos law I missed because no you're really not making any sense.

Starting at 650 yen? Not in most cases. But continue to cherry pick if you like.

You're also trying to use yourself as an example? Classic.

And yes, you can "double your hours" for teaching. By getting other PT jobs. No one told you that?

And with the way the government is handling money, do you think it is just wise to start giving out vast amounts of cash to people who can't be bothered to even trying and help themselves? Where is that money coming from? Oh right, people like myself who if was laid off from work, would be heading to the nearest Hello Work to find ANY kind of job I could do. Shame others don't have the work ethic.