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We must not create a society where those who do not get vaccinated feel guilty or lose out. We need to be careful not to encourage peer pressure through vaccine discount programs.

37 Comments

Kenta Yamada, a professor of media law and journalism at Senshu University. Restaurants, hotels and even wedding venues have begun offering discounts to customers who are fully vaccinated against the coronavirus as part of efforts to jumpstart the economy following the pandemic.

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37 Comments
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The task: getting everybody vaccinated

The obstacle: not hurt people's feelings by having them people feel 仲間外れ (left-out)

The result: catch-22...?

(of course, the above doesn't take in consideration the "feelings" of those who want to get vaccinated but can't because of, you know, the government's abysmal failure in this crisis' management...)

16 ( +24 / -8 )

Segregation of non-vaccinated has already began and will only speedup. Companies in US giving employees a choice, vaccinate or lose your job. Shops and events require vaccination certificates to enter.

13 ( +20 / -7 )

It is naive to think you can convince society to ignore that some people are actively trying to reduce the risk not only to themselves but also to others while others are just planning to get a free ride using the immunity of others to protect themselves. It would be like asking people not to treat differently those that choose to have no manners or bad hygiene.

4 ( +20 / -16 )

Thank you Yamada san for standing up for human rights, fairness and common sense.

-12 ( +14 / -26 )

Sensible. Especially allowing previously sick people to waive the vaccine

-7 ( +12 / -19 )

The task: getting everybody vaccinated

The problem is the fact that that is the task for many; it shouldn't be. There is no reason to get everyone vaccinated, or anyone that doesn't need it or want it.

-13 ( +9 / -22 )

Thank you Yamada san for standing up for human rights, fairness and common sense.

Except of course when you don't share the beliefs of those that want to act against the recommendations of the health authorities, in that case you are completely fine with not being fair with them.

The problem is the fact that that is the task for many; it shouldn't be. There is no reason to get everyone vaccinated, or anyone that doesn't need it or want it.

This is false, there are plenty of reasons to get anybody that can get vaccinated protected, from importantly reducing their own risk to help protecting others from infection (including those that can't get vaccinated), making much more difficult the appearance of variants, releasing space in hospitals for other people to use (including people with other health problems), accelerating the return to a more normal life, etc. etc.

What you mean is that some people none of those reasons are important and their irrational fears are the only priority they have. Trying to impose respect for those people that do not feel other people are important enough to use a safe and effective health measure is not a very productive stance.

5 ( +16 / -11 )

In my opinion it is very wrong to shame people for not receiving a vaccine that has only gone through a limited testing period if their reasons are based on concerns about negative health effects. Most expats here are probably with a doctor that has limited health record information and knows nothing about their health history back at home, so how is it that these doctors are able to make a valid decision overriding your brain that is able to weigh dozens of years of events together in a matter of seconds? While doctors have a lot of knowledge about medicine, do they know the exact details and history about you? You should always have the right to decline a vaccine IMO.

-8 ( +10 / -18 )

Wrong Mr Yamada. This is exactly the society we need.

Those who reject science and logical thought to the detriment if society are not needed. Let them sit on the sidelines but with the option to rejoin if they see the errors of their ways.

8 ( +18 / -10 )

In this special case of corona pandemic, the vaccinations are one basic and necessary part of a countermeasure strategy, so the freedom of an individual not wanting to be vaccinated has simply to step back from our whole possible outlook for keeping general freedom, life , healthy people and a working economy. Such unscientific and selfish people have to be convinced and in case of continued stubbornness to be put sufficient pressure on. Important is , to not pressure or stigmatize all those in the society who really cannot or must not be vaccinated for any very special reason.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

@MrKipling Those who reject science and logical thought to the detriment if society are not needed. Let them sit on the sidelines but with the option to rejoin if they see the errors of their ways.

Sick! Imagine if this person really feels this way and this is not hyperbole. I will give the poster the benefit of the doubt. This thinking is exactly what is wrong with the world. We need to respect personal decisions. Disagreeing with science is not illegal and must not be a reason for discrimination or cancellation. So shameful!

-5 ( +8 / -13 )

This is false, for most young and healthy people, the risks of the vaccines are greater than the risks of the virus.

This is a complete lie. Why would you post something so blatantly and provably false?

You can't demand everyone to take unnecessary risks with these experimental vaccines

The vaccines aren't experimental.

Vaccinations do not lead to normal life; those are just empty promises. Look at Iceland and other highly vaccinated nations...

https://www.businessinsider.com/iceland-proves-covid-19-vaccines-work-expert-no-death-may-2021-8

12 ( +16 / -4 )

This is false, for most young and healthy people, the risks of the vaccines are greater than the risks of the virus.

This is only a false belief you have that you have failed to prove with evidence but keep repeating, that does not make it less mistaken. Bring the evidence of this (as in problems that happen in higher rates on vaccinated than in unvaccinated people that are found more frequently than the problems caused by COVID) or else you just have to accept this is not true.

ou can't demand everyone to take unnecessary risks with these experimental vaccines just for the sake of a few who cannot get the vaccine.

Nobody is demanding, just demonstrating that this reason exist and can be considered important by people that think about other people apart from themselves, you saying there is no reason is therefore proved false. Also the approval in Japan for EUA do not define the vaccines as experimental, so you are mistaken also on this.

Then let doctors treat with ivermectin or HCQ+azithromycin, and hospitals will not fill up.

This is something proved false by science, pretending the whole scientific community of all countries in the world are hiding drugs that could treat their friends and family is not a believable argument.

Vaccinations do not lead to normal life; those are just empty promises. Look at Iceland and other highly vaccinated nations...

Vaccines definitely can help returning to a more normal life, even if the virus becomes endemic, no country in the world has reached vaccination levels where herd immunity can be said to be present, but those with higher vaccination rates have much less cases, complications, hospitalizations and deaths, which obviously is much more closer to normal.

Imaginary conspiracies are not an argument, just an excuse used by people that can prove their beliefs are true with evidence.

5 ( +11 / -6 )

You can't demand everyone to take unnecessary risks with these experimental vaccines

The vaccines aren't experimental.

Actually, they are. That is not in dispute by the experts. The inventor of the technology (Robert Malone), who is also an expert in bioethics and regulatory affairs, says they are experimental and that this is not disputed.

The actual documents from the FDA regarding these vaccines and their EUA classify them as experimental. Someone already provided the exact FDA quote here on JT a while back.

Until they get full approval (not EUA), they are considered experimental.

We should not force people to participate in experiments....

-7 ( +5 / -12 )

I'm all for peer pressure. If everyone could get vaccinated and out of the bars you could at least put the pandemic on hold, if not crush it sooner. I'm all for good feelings and all that in normal times. But these are not normal times.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

We must not create a society where those who do not get vaccinated feel guilty or lose out.

But so many of the non-vaccinated are in fact "losing out." Like how 90% of the people hospitalized or dying from Covid in the US are the ones who chose not to get vaccinated. Their decisions and choices made them losers. What's wrong with reminding them of this reality?

7 ( +11 / -4 )

I've reread the above from Kenta Yamada I think the is pure Twilight Zone material.

Don't make the vaccine rejectors. Oh yes, don't then to accept discount vaccinations. In order words be a staunch anti-vaccer. Just like a an anti-masker.

This in effect is encouraging the anti-vaccer to play the victim. We do not need that.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

Actually, they are.

No, they aren't. The vacinnes aren't "experimental" in the ominous sense that you're trying to make them out to be (meaning : dangerous and untested).

The vaccines are safe, you spread misinformation and one really wonders why in the war of humanking against disease, you would choose the side of... Disease.

5 ( +11 / -6 )

The actual documents from the FDA regarding these vaccines and their EUA classify them as experimental. Someone already provided the exact FDA quote here on JT a while back.

Until they get full approval (not EUA), they are considered experimental.

No they are not, in Japan they are not qualified as experimental by the PMDA (the FDA has no jurisdiction in Japan), so this is a false characterization.

We should not force people to participate in experiments....

And nobody is doing any forcing nor the people being vaccinated is participating in any experiment. Neither in Japan nor in the US, the vaccines are being used for their therapeutic value so the people are being treated, not experimented on. This is also a false characterization antivaxxer groups use to misrepresent the vaccines but when asked to prove it (for example asking the clinical trial code for the supposed experiment the vaccinated people are being included) nobody can do it.

4 ( +10 / -6 )

The vacinnes aren't "experimental" in the ominous sense that you're trying to make them out to be (meaning : dangerous and untested).

The vaccines are safe...

If they weren't experimental (or investigational), then why haven't they yet received full approval by the FDA? The mRNA delivery technology has been around for some time, yet never licensed....

No they are not, in Japan they are not qualified as experimental by the PMDA (the FDA has no jurisdiction in Japan), so this is a false characterization.

OK, so you accept that the FDA considers them experimental (or investigational), but that the exact same vaccines are not so in Japan?

Well the following PDMA document indicates they are investigating:

https://www.pmda.go.jp/english/about-pmda/0003.pdf

While these data were carefully reviewed, intensive post-approval activities are planned to be carried out. For example, all cases of vaccination to 10,000-20,000 healthcare workers, who are prioritized to receive vaccination first, will be followed up for symptoms and illnesses for about 1 month after vaccination. In addition, postvaccination health status survey will be conducted in a questionnaire form in general vaccine recipients with prior informed consent. Results of these activities and other routine post-approval measures will be released publicly once available.

I'm looking forward to seeing the results of their investigation....

We should not force people to participate in experiments....

And nobody is doing any forcing nor the people being vaccinated is participating in any experiment.

I didn't mean that they were physically being forced, but rather that people are being discriminated against and pressured to participate in an experiment. That ain't right!

-6 ( +5 / -11 )

We should not force people to participate in experiments....

How about the experiment to see how far the virus can spread when people make a conscious decision not to try and stop it, ie decide not to get vaccinated? That forces the rest of us, including those who cannot be vaccinated, to participate against our will in a potentially deadly experiment.

If you want to experiment / gamble with your own health by choosing not to get vaccinated in the middle of a global pandemic, fine; go off and do your experiment in private, far, far away from where the rest of us are trying to get on with our lives. And don't come asking for oxygen or a hospital bed when your experiment produces the expected results.

Why shouldn't those who choose to act irresponsibly be made to feel guilty?

12 ( +16 / -4 )

If they weren't experimental (or investigational), then why haven't they yet received full approval by the FDA? 

The have been fully authorized by the FDA, and the FDA is clearly saying you should get vaccinated without waiting for their approval.

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda

The FDA evaluated data from clinical studies that included tens of thousands of people for each COVID-19 vaccine. The FDA authorized the vaccines because the data from these studies clearly showed that the known and potential benefits of the FDA-authorized COVID-19 vaccines outweighed the known and potential risks.

So why do you pretend like the FDA's opinion matters to you anyway? Everybody knows that once the FDA fully "approves" the vaccines, you will just accuse them of being sold to Big Pharma or move the goalposts to anything else you can hang on to, because you only operate in complete bad faith.

8 ( +12 / -4 )

If they weren't experimental (or investigational), then why haven't they yet received full approval by the FDA? 

Mostly because they are unrelated things, things can stop being experimental without ever getting an approval from the FDA, including everything that is approved in other countries that never applies to approval in the US.

Also a drug can get a full approval for a purpose by the FDA while still be qualified as experimental for other purposes, making it both things (experimental and approved) at the same time. This is common knowledge for anybody actually interested in drugs and vaccines.

OK, so you accept that the FDA considers them experimental (or investigational), but that the exact same vaccines are not so in Japan?

So you accept the vaccines are not experimental here in Japan, and therefore you are mistaken if you call them that way? that is a huge step forward. Keep at it.

Well the following PDMA document indicates they are investigating:

This do not make the vaccines experimental, the PMDA could be collecting epidemiological information from drugs being approved decades ago and this would not magically make those drugs "experimental" again.

Unless people ill informed everybody in the field already know that Japanese people are humans as the rest of the people in the planet, so nobody is expecting anything from this information that has not been done better and in bigger scale already overseas.

I didn't mean that they were physically being forced, but rather that people are being discriminated against and pressured to participate in an experiment. That ain't right!

You forgot to "defend" the part where they were supposedly being experimented on, good thing that you now realize this is just antivaxxer propaganda without any basis.

5 ( +9 / -4 )

There is not even access to vaccines for young people. The only thing that is available are the JSDF vaccination centers that fills up each week within 10 seconds after launch.

At this point, might as well give up on getting a vaccine. The government will never allow access to vaccines to the majority of the population before the domestic vaccines comes online next year.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

One of the doctors in my family works the Covid ward at a hospital in Seattle. She is amazed at how many anti-mask and anti-inoculation people are on their death bed that ask her for a vaccine.

There is nothing she can do except make them comfortable as they die daily in front of her.

Some of their family members do change their attitudes rather quickly though and get the vaccine.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

Why ever not.

They can exercise their “freedom” not to be vaccinated but like every other decision it comes with consequences. If they choose to exercise their freedom in that way they must accept the concomitant consequences.

There is no such thing as untrammelled freedom in any human society. In a democracy the will of the majority rules and the minority have to accept that. Why should a minority of the ill informed or wilfully obtuse be allowed to endanger the health, lives and economic well-being of the vast majority?

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Vaccines definitely can help returning to a more normal life, even if the virus becomes endemic, no country in the world has reached vaccination levels where herd immunity can be said to be present, but those with higher vaccination rates have much less cases, complications, hospitalizations and deaths, which obviously is much more closer to normal.

Someone with more expertise than you says otherwise

Delta variant renders herd immunity from Covid ‘mythical’

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/10/delta-variant-renders-herd-immunity-from-covid-mythical?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Also just the countries that have distributed more vaccines are doing worse than those that haven't, just look at ourworldindata.com

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

joffy...

@MrKipling Those who reject science and logical thought to the detriment if society are not needed. Let them sit on the sidelines but with the option to rejoin if they see the errors of their ways.

Sick! Imagine if this person really feels this way and this is not hyperbole. I will give the poster the benefit of the doubt.

No hyperbole on my part. Quite the opposite. My wishes for those who are hard core anti vacc cultists get moderated. But suffice to say that when I read today that an avid anti vaccer DJ in the states died today, my first thought was not .."how sad"

2 ( +4 / -2 )

"We must not create a society where those who do not get vaccinated feel guilty or lose out."

Actually, we must. We are seeing the result of that not happening, which is why the number of infections and the actions of the government here are embarrassing on the world stage. People who do not want to get vaccinated should not be allowed in any private businesses, workplaces (unless they own them, in which case they should have to inform customers they are not vaccinated), schools, on public transportation, shopping centers and stores, and the whole shebang. The only exception should be those who cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons.

It's time to stop coddling the people who don't want to get vaccinated. They are morons. If it only brought risk and harm to themselves, I'd say have at it, but they take it home to their family, give it to their friends and colleagues, or just others they come in contact with. Let the government class it as something under the "self-defense" act so they can suddenly bypass any debate or talk and just ram it through -- that's what they do with something they want.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Please, whatever you feel about vaccination politics, the bottom line is the elder members of your family.

Take the shot.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Last missive written in haste and O Gawd.

The big problem is that anti-Vaxers can get infected. When that happens it is too late for vaccinations. You need a hospital bed--hoping they are available. Also, people not vaxinated can infect other people.

The benefits of being vaccinated include safety for you and your family and friends. What do you get by not being vaccinated? Ego massage. Beer and fired stuff at your favorite eatery. Not much of a choice in my view.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Must absolutely, definitely not use peer pressure. This is Japan, after all.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Rhetorical question: would you patronize "restaurants, hotels and even wedding venues" whose entire staff was unvaxed? Imagine several people infected with one death, and it's traced back to your wedding. That'd be a life-ling memory (as long as that death is not you). Would you eat at a restaurant or stay at a hotel with unvaxed staff? I wouldn't if there were choices. Look at the NFL: initially, the players did not want to get vaxed, so the commission came down with this ruling: if your players are not fully vaxed, not only must you forfeit the game (not a postponement like what happens with bad weather - an outright forfeit) but your team must also shoulder the costs of that forfeiture - damages to the stadium, concessions, the opposing team, etc. And guess what? A month later, NFL vaccination rates were 98% - and this is among primarily black people, who tend to distrust the jab. Sometimes a little encouragement is useful.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Well, whether or not the vaccine is available, there are two main possibilities on the horizon. Pretty soon, with more contagious variants appearing, if you are not vaccinated, preferably with Moderna or Pfizer, you will most likely be sick or dead. Hurt feelings are not the focus.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Someone with more expertise than you says otherwise

Your link do not support your mistaken conclusions, returning to a more normal life is a perfectly possible outcome even if the immunity against variants is not 100% effective, trying to misrepresent a logical theory into a completely illogical conclusion is just disinformation.

Also just the countries that have distributed more vaccines are doing worse than those that haven't, just look at ourworldindata.com

Looked at them, they are doing much better, less complications, less deaths, better control. I mean I would have to be extremely dishonest to pick examples where other forms of control like hard lockdowns are the ones keeping the cases controlled and try to use it as if that demonstrated that not vaccinating was the cause. Fortunately I am not, so it becomes obvious that countries that vaccinate less and have delta cases are doing much worse than those countries that vaccinate, which are much closer to going back to a more normal life.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Multiple vaccines were mandatory when I entered public schools back in the day. Vaccines are not controversial for highly transmissible diseases such as measles. This guy may be right about consumer goods or iPhones, but he is quite wrong about public health measures.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

“We are seeing concerning evidence of waning vaccine effectiveness over time and against the Delta variant,” Walensky said.

Walensky continued, “Reports from our international colleagues, including Israel, suggest increased risk of SEVERE disease amongst those VACCINATED EARLY.”

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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