Mariners malcontent centering on Ichiro

This is pure gossip with no evidence that it was fact, denied by anyone connected to the club and guess what ? Yep, it ends up as a headline on Japan Today. This news site should be up for some fiction awards I would have thought.

May be media press is defending Ichiro before somebody really deplores his selfish 200 hit count each season with minimum RBI and leaving bases loaded. However, article may be worth reporting under 'gossip' coloumn instread of 'sports' !

The title of this article is a terrible one in its attempt to turn an unfounded rumor into a statement of fact. Why would JT want to do this?

The reality is this: "Ichiro rumored to be the target of malcontent by unnamed Mariner's player." Or, why not simply add a question mark to the current title?

Kudos to JT for relaying the quote in Thursday's edition of The Seattle Times. The crap that comes out of this self-centred brat known as Ichiro is purely astounding. It comes as no surpise to me that some one would want to beat some sense into the guy. Just the other day Ichiro played another of his greatest hits, when he emphasised there were very few people in the baseball world he respected. Floating above the clouds aren't ya. You won't be missed.

northlondon et al, take a look at the Sports Illustrated homepage. Looks like this is more than rumor now. I admire Ichiro's skills, but I've always thought he seemed more concerned about his stats than winning or losing. Apparently more than a few of his teammates think so, too.

hoserfella: The SI/CNN homepage contains exactly the same rumor as printed above verbatim.

Why do you claim this is more than rumor? Or is there a link you can provide that is not a reprint of what can be read above?

As a former athlete, not being concerned about winning or losing can translate to not allowing what happened yesterday, the last inning or the last at bat to affect what I need to do now. Are there any examples of how Ichiro's play negatively affects the team?

Aside to chibaman: There are very few people in the baseball world who are truly worthy of respect.

Aside to chibaman: There are very few people in the baseball world who are truly worthy of respect.

What nonsense. You never hear real champions spout such rubbish. Only the pretenders and the arm-chair experts.

chibaman, someone who dishes out respect as easily as you appear to could never have played any sport at a high level. It's all about standards, and some folks have much more demanding standards of themselves and others.

Yabits: Why do you claim that it is nothing but rumor? Why would you claim that this has been made up out of thin air? curious.... Also as a former athlete myself, (2 Heismans and 3-time NHL scoring champ) I can tell you with the utmost authority that your winning and losing comment is bogus.

Hoserfella writes: "Why do you claim that it is nothing but rumor?"

Because I know how to read. "[Mariners] pitcher J.J. Putz said he doesn’t remember any such incident and said there was no meeting to talk about it."

Also as a former athlete myself, (2 Heismans and 3-time NHL scoring champ) I can tell you with the utmost authority that your winning and losing comment is bogus.

LOL! Yes, I'm sure you have as much "authority" as you do authenticity.

Yabits- I guess your reading skills and reasoning skills need work. All Putz did was claim ignorance on the clubhouse tension. He never denied it at all (but as a former athelete, you must know the importance of keeping things "in-house", eh?)

horsefella:

He never denied it at all

Sounds like from reading what yabits wrote: "JJ Putz said there was NO meeting to talk about it." that he DID deny it. You should understand that saying "there was NO meeting" = blatantly denying a meeting ever happened. Also, when a player says:

“You’re talking about a guy who is more prepared to play than anybody probably in this game,” Putz said. “He goes out every single season and has 200 hits and scores 100 runs. All of a sudden people talk about knocking him out. That’s the one thing that’s usually sacred in there. You have something to say about somebody, you walk up to them and say something.”

That to me signifies that this person is going all out to defend his own teammate. I can't find anything in the above quote that infers "ignorance" in it. I mean, I could say the same thing about a player who is playing on a last place team about to be eliminated from the playoffs saying "We can still qualify!" claiming ignorance for the fact that they are on a s*** team; can't I?

freakashow should be commended for astutely pointing out who really needs work on his reading and reasoning skills.

hooboy, yabits and friend. The point here has nothing to do with team meetings. The point is that there are members on the team who feel Ichiro cares more about his stats than winning. You gotta hand it to Putz for coming to a teammates defence, but the fact remains. There are/were tensions. Deal with it...

The point is that there are members on the team who feel Ichiro cares more about his stats than winning.

And I will ask again, since none of the people who are so anti-Ichiro seem to have been able to respond to it: Are there any examples of how Ichiro's play on the field demonstrates a lack of desire to win?

Yabits, as a former athelete, Im surprised that you dont see how grating it is for his teammates not to hear him say how he'd trade the personal accomplishments for a chance to play in the post season. In his interviews after the 200th hit, you'd have thought he just won the world series. Not once did he lament the obvious fact that he did it on the team with the worst record in the majors. Teammates notice this kind of thing in any sport...

sounds like this is all rumours, heresay, and BS...

Sounds like a few posters here just found out there's no Santa Claus. I got nothing against the guy, but stories like this just don't pop up out of nowhere. Where there's smoke, there's fire...

so, the honeymoon's over

I got nothing against the guy, but stories like this just don't pop up out of nowhere.

Well then, I guess you are implying that rumors heard in tabloids such as the National Enquirer and Sun don't just come out of nowhere too.

Where there's smoke, there's fire...

I guess you must have skipped your high school biology class. According to the American Heritage dictionary, smoke can be described as "a cloud of fine particles". It goes on to note that although smoke primarily comes from things that have been ignited, chemicals such as sulfur can also emit smoke (which stands to reason that sulfur doesn't have to be on fire). I also happen to know that when water is combined with frozen carbon dioxide you can see the same effect.

freakashow, If you read the story from the top, you'll see the newspaper in question is the Seattle Times; a fine, reputable paper. As for the National Inquirer, just ask John Edwards about their accuracy. As for smoke, I find that it originates out of certain posters' butts..

you'll see the newspaper in question is the Seattle Times; a fine, reputable paper.

Yes, but fine, reputable papers tend to quote their sources as real people. A “clubhouse insider”doesn't quite cut the definition as a "reputable source" now does it? I've heard of names like John, Sue, James, etc. Since when is "clubhouse insider" a real name? If you went to court with that, you would lose hands down.

I got nothing against the guy, but stories like this just don't pop up out of nowhere.

And I guess that stories about a "fella" poster don't just pop out of nowhere either, huh?

Sorry, this story hasn't just "popped out of nowhere" ! In fact I recall a lot of posters criticising Ichiro way on back. Comments about his arrogance and uppity attitude were common place. Mods here at Japantoday chastised them for making light of the situation and revealing what a hard head Ichiro really is. Well, it seems "they" were right ! Too bad the vast majority of those handles are gone. Discussions here about baseball are virtually nonexistent.

And I guess that stories about a "fella" poster don't just pop out of nowhere either, huh?

Huh? If I knew what the heck that meant, I might reply... In any case, freakashow, you are de facto implying that this has been completely made up by sources from the Seattle Times. Thats quite an accusation...

A lot of Seamen fans think the source is Carlos Silva:

"Maybe half of the team wants to do the best they can,'' Silva said. "Take the starting rotation...every time we cross that line, we want to do our best. No matter how many games we are behind. But maybe half of the team doesn't have that mentality. They are only thinking of finishing strong. And to put up their numbers. That's great, but that affects us. As a team, that doesn't work out.''

Silva's nickname (the other one that isn't Bison related) is The Chief. Here's another comment from him, referring to himself in the third person.

"Maybe Chief has to go and grab somebody from his neck and throw him into the wall and something's going to change,'' he said. "I'm very close to doing that, so write that down.''

Carlos Silva's stats for 2008

4-15 6.46 ERA

Good post nigelboy. Rumors from a credible teammate who actually worked for their money would be deemed credible. Rumors from a player who stunk and wants to point fingers at others for their ineptitude are just what they are: RUMORS. Seems like one poster in particular (bafly, aka horefell*) seem to think fabrications are more credible than facts.

chouwa, if you stop and catch your breath, you'll see that nigelboy actually seconded the notion that there IS in fact tension in the Mariners clubhouse regarding Ichiro! And if I use your curious reasoning, the only types that would be allowed to criticise others would be the likes of; Barry Bonds, A-Rod, Jeff Kent, Sammy Sosa, and other clubhouse cancers? Simply because their stats are good? Guess how many World Series trophies they have combined? You got it; ZERO! There's no "I" in "Team", chouwa. Its a cliche, yes. But if you were an athelete like Yabits and I, you'd understand...

But if you were an athelete like Yabits and I, you'd understand...

Well, I lettered in basketball and soccer in my high school days and played on my university's soccer team, so I guess I could consider myself an athlete.

And if I use your curious reasoning that stats don't mean much, then why do managers, teams, and the general public take them in the first place? Because they do mean something.

Yes, some statistics are crap, like the amount of points you average in a basketball game and your homerun total. Pure athletes like myself care more about other stats like field goal percentage, assist-to-turnover ratio, in basketball. As for baseball, I feel OBP, WHIP, and walk-to-strikeout ratios are better stats to look for. But nonetheless, they are stats.

If I were a baseball player and were a pitcher, I would really care about stats like how many hits a batter gets on sliders vs. breaking balls, vs. fastballs, etc. or stats of what percentage of a batter will hit first-strike balls thrown at them. After all, good pitchers like Greg Maddux pay attention to them. Also, the smartest man in baseball Billy Beane cares a lot about individual stats like OBP when choosing players to draft. Bad managers don't pay attention to stats and say to their hitters, "Swing away!" and to their pitchers "Pitch whatever you want!" I guess that's how you play, huh?

Billy Beane the smartest man in baseball?? lets see...Oakland A's......Oakland A's....Oh, Yeah! Now I remember! They are that sub-.500 team from the A.L.West that... SUCKS YEAR AFTER YEAR! anyway, now that Ive exposed just how much you really know about ball, what has this got to do with Ichiro? Does OBP, WHIPs and first-strike nonsense explain his popularity in the Seattle clubhouse somehow?

Chouwa, sounds like you suddenly picked up "Moneyball", read the 1st and last paragraph, and then burped out everything in one, violent, confused heave.

Are you daft? Yes, I've read the book before, but where in it does it even mention Greg Maddux?

lets see...Oakland A's......Oakland A's....Oh, Yeah! Now I remember! They are that sub-.500 team from the A.L.West that... SUCKS YEAR AFTER YEAR!

Uh, no. The Oakland A's do more with the payroll they have than any other major league team has done. According to Wikipedia:

"Beane became GM of the A's in 1997 and since then he has crafted the Athletics into one of the most cost-effective teams in baseball, applying sabermetric principles toward obtaining relatively undervalued players. For example, in 2006 the A's ranked 21st of 30 major league teams in player salaries but had the 5th-best regular-season record. This reflects a typical pattern throughout Beane's stewardship."

Although they haven't won the World Series during his tenure, they have remained competitive almost every year. It's not his fault that his bosses are such tightwads.

Chouwa, sounds like you suddenly picked up "Moneyball", read the 1st and last paragraph, and then burped out everything in one, violent, confused heave.

Oh, and besides, "Moneyball" is about baseball, not basketball or soccer (my specialties).

Am I daft? Well, let's see... When I asked you a pointed question about Ichiro, you; 1. gave me stale, 2nd-hand theories about Beane and the A's which were easily de-bunked, 2. went off on a tangent about Greg Maddox (whom I had never mentioned), 3. concluded by admitting you are over your head in baseball arguments and would rather stick to soccer or basketball. Meanwhile, you completely ignored the Ichiro issue!!

All of you posters up there don't seem you know what you are talking about: Ichiro and the Mariners suck big time anyway. The real story should be Akinok and his Rays. Iwamura is a bigtime player and is the polar opposite of Ichiro. He doesn't get the big stats like Ichiro, but Akinok is a valuable cog in the Tampa machine. He is also a known comedian and loved by all his teammates and fans (the ones that actually come out to see them play, since Tampa Bay's been having problems getting attendance numbers). Heck, Akinok doesn't even care about his stats, as he doesn't get many homers (as does the rest of his team), but gets a ton of timely hits and has a high RISP (Runners in Scoring Position, for those of you who don't know baseball).

Sorry hoserfella

My intention was to point out that those who might be having tensions with Ichiro need to look at themselves in the mirror and that the "flaws" in character should be geared towards some of his teammates than Ichiro. Maybe Ichiro should of made comments like that of Silva to stirr things up in the clubhouse. He certainly has a right to do so since I can only see two other palyers (Ibanez/Lopez) who carried their own weight.

Ichiro's being doing the same thing year in and year out but nobody even metioned any clubhouse tensions when they were winning with the likes of Boone, Edgar, Olerud, Moyer, and Cameron.

Ichiro is an arrogant individual. On the flip side, no one in the game works harder to prepare himself. I'd take that over a 4-15 6.46 ERA overpaid larda$$ anyday.

Nigelboy, Id take Ichiro for my leadoff spot, too. He can flat out play. I'm just surprised to see how sensitive certain people are when it comes to him. Somehow he has become this god-like figure who is above reproach...

why does he stay in seattle, that baseball team is a cancer. He should move to a franchise where he has a chance to win the WS. Like Matsui tried to do, he just picked the wrong team.

oh, and if billy beane had the mariners payroll, it would be WS time for sure. Beane makes mistakes but he is the best GM in baseball. Others now try to be like him, in boston for example, and since they have 130 million dollar plus staffs they win it all.

Good post zurcronium. Beane is the best GM in baseball. It seems some posters like to talk two ways out of their a*** On one hand they're saying stats don't matter and Ichiro only cares about them. On the other hand they are saying that he can play really good.

freakshow misses the point again!! My only point (which he STILL refuses to discuss) is that Ichiro's selfishness regarding his numbers has upset his teammates. I never said the guy couldn't play, in fact twice I said he was a very good player. Posers like freakashow think picking up "Moneyball" for 5 minutes makes them an expert. By the way, Freakashow. Are we any closer to you addressing Ichiro's lack of team spirit? (I'm guessing no...)

My only point (which he STILL refuses to discuss) is that Ichiro's selfishness regarding his numbers has upset his teammates

And that was my other point. When your team is losing, it appears that Ichiro is selfish because he's trying to get hits for the sake of the record. When your team is winning, the same thing translates to "contributing to the team". Does hits mean anything in baseball? Does scoring runs mean anything in baseball??

When your team is 35 games out of the pennant race, yet you celebrate with a big smile for getting your 100th run and 200th hit with 3 games to go in meaningless games- thats bush league. Ichiro takes pride in his individual stats yet doesn't seem to care about how the team is doing.

Sorry hoserfella

Bush league is a guy trying to steal second base when his team is up 12 runs in the 8th inning.

nigel, how about attempted bunts when you are down by 12 runs in the 8th?

nigel, how about attempted bunts when you are down by 12 runs in the 8th?

Sacrifice? Or trying to get on base?

nige, Im going to go out on a limb and say you may be unfamiliar with some of the unwritten rules in baseball. There are 2 situations where one should not bunt; 1. trying to break up a no-hitter (unless its a very close game), and 2. When your team is up or behind by a lot of runs... In any case, Ichiro should have muted any self-congratulations during such a terrible season.

nige, Im going to go out on a limb and say you may be unfamiliar with some of the unwritten rules in baseball

You shouldn't have.

trying to break up a no-hitter (unless its a very close game), and 2. When your team is up or behind by a lot of runs... In any case, Ichiro should have muted any self-congratulations during such a terrible season.

1 I agree. #2 I agree only when your team is up big.

all apologies, Nige. As for #2, while bunting while behind by a bunch of runs would not upset the other team at all, it would surely piss off your manager who needs a big inning, not more small ball.

all apologies, Nige. As for #2, while bunting while behind by a bunch of runs would not upset the other team at all, it would surely piss off your manager who needs a big inning, not more small ball.

Now you're being silly. I asked you first hand if it was to "sacrifice" or "to get on base". You didn't answer. My answer was based on "to get on base". When you're down by a lot runs in late innings, your job is to get on base at any cost whether that's leaning towards the pitch to get hit or taking a pitch on a 3-1 count, or even bunting trying to get on base because in those situations, the infielder typically plays deep. And of course, the situation varies depending if you're leading off an inning or there is no one on base in which getting on base is your foremost job as a slap (non-power)hitter. But of course, if there are runners on base (1st and 2nd, or bases loaded) your job is to drive him so bunting is not encouraged.

while bunting while behind by a bunch of runs would not upset the other team at all, it would surely piss off your manager who needs a big inning, not more small ball.

What? Don't you know anything about baseball at all? You play to your strengths at all times. That is the true meaning of teamwork. Although I agree that IDEALLY it would be better to go for a homerun when you are down by a lot of runs, you don't start hacking away in the process of doing it if it is not something that you are meant and paid to do. Take a look at a leadoff hitter's position. Most of them don't go for homeruns because they are not paid and are not in the position to do so. One of my favorite hitters (albeit on a team I hate) Chone Figgins, has never reached double digits in homers in a season ever, yet he does what he is meant to do and get on base, steal and disrupt the pitcher's concentration in the process. It is why they have players like Vladdy to do it.

At least nigelboy looks like the only other poster on this thread that knows something about baseball. You are correct that getting on base should be the first priority. I agree with one point that you have stated, hoserfella: Never bunt to upset a no hitter; or a perfect game for that matter.

Nevertheless, GO AKINOK AND THE TAMPA RAYS!

Nige, whether you are sacrificing a man to 2nd or simply trying to get on, it doesnt matter. Bunting is playing against percentages which usually results in an out. If your only aim is to get a run on the board to make it 6-1 instead of 6-0, you won't get too many managerial offers in baseball. Hotbox08- see the above

freakshow misses the point again!! My only point (which he STILL refuses to discuss) is that Ichiro's selfishness regarding his numbers has upset his teammates. I never said the guy couldn't play, in fact twice I said he was a very good player. Posers like freakashow think picking up "Moneyball" for 5 minutes makes them an expert. By the way, Freakashow. Are we any closer to you addressing Ichiro's lack of team spirit? (I'm guessing no...)

My apologies, hoserfella. You did indeed praise Ichiro's playing skills. Yet, you seem to have failed to read any of my posts, or maybe forgot what I wrote. I have already addressed the rumors about Ichiro. You yourself said that it is a fact that Ichiro is the source of disruption in the Mariners clubhouse. I responded by saying that you can't tell that for a fact based on a "rumor", especially when many of his own teammates claim otherwise. You also went on to say that JJ Putz never denied the rumor. I wrote that he did, and I backed it up with Putz's own statements.

You also mentioned that I know nothing about baseball and teamwork. Yes, I may not know as much about baseball as you do, but that does not mean you know more about teamwork than I do. Teamwork and rumors DO NOT only happen in baseball. Rumors are flown everywhere; at work, at home, in politics, entertainment, and yes, sports. And rumors can even be spread from seemingly credible sources. Just because one person is saying something about someone, doesn’t mean it’s true. We can play the “he said, she said” game all you want, but until more credible sources come forward; a rumor remains a rumor. Also, you don't have to be an athlete to know anything about teamwork. In fact, many sports don't even require teamwork, like tennis, karate, boxing, and golf.

Yes, you are right, I am an amateur when it comes to talking about baseball, but I do know the difference between a rumor and fact. I also know what it means to be on a team. You forget, I have played sports competitively before; just not baseball. I sincerely hope that you don’t believe everything someone says about someone else; especially if it is only one person saying it. As for me, I always like to give people a chance to actually get to know them before passing any form of judgment. I pray that people will do the same with you.

Peace.

freakashow

Freakashow, Im touched. I think there's something in my eye. Theres nothing wrong with admitting your baseball knowledge isnt quite up to snuff, if fact it takes a big man to admit when he's wrong. However, I have some issues with the above..

You also went on to say that JJ Putz never denied the rumor. I wrote that he did, and I backed it up with Putz's own statements.

Putz didnt deny or confirm the rumour. Is said that he wasn't aware of it. go back and check if you wish.

I responded by saying that you can't tell that for a fact based on a "rumor", especially when many of his own teammates claim otherwise.

Putz was the only one interviewed. who are the rest you refer to?

Putz was the only one interviewed. who are the rest you refer to?

Sorry, my bad. I forgot to mention John Riggleman. Also, in a another article, former teammate Jose Guillen (now with the Royals) and teammate Raul Ibanez said:

Being in the middle of the outfield allows him to direct traffic, cover a lot of ground and move whichever way he desires. The amount of ground he covers often leads him into far left or right-center field, but has not become a nuisance to his outfield teammates, Raul Ibanez and Jose Guillen.

"It's good when you're playing with a guy who can cover so much ground," Guillen said. "Everybody can see it. He goes to left field, he goes to right field. He's pretty smart, and he knows what he's doing."

http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070802&content_id=2125455&vkey=news_sea&fext=.jsp&c_id=sea

freakashow, did you just Google "Ichiro", "teammates", and "covering ground"? intersting, yet doesnt explain much about this thread...

did you just Google "Ichiro", "teammates", and "covering ground"?

No, I didn't Google anything. I remembered off the top of my head reading about Ichiro's teammates in the outfield comments. I decided to include a source, since it wouldn't seem authentic without it.

Oh, and to add, to find the article and quote about Ichiro, all I did was to look it up on the Mariners official website. You should check it out.

Oh, dear. Well, freakashow, if thats what the Seattle Mariner's official website says, then I guess all is well in the Pacific Northwest afterall...

Nige, whether you are sacrificing a man to 2nd or simply trying to get on, it doesnt matter. Bunting is playing against percentages which usually results in an out.

Of course it does. When your sacrificing (bunting) with runners on base when your down big, that's obviously not recommended. But when your bunting to get a base hit, depending on the situation I cited previously (see my post at 03:33 PM JST - 2nd October) that's a whole different matter all to itself.

"If your only aim is to get a run on the board to make it 6-1 instead of 6-0, you won't get too many managerial offers in baseball."

What??? The point of getting on base as a slap hitter is for the other power hitters to drive you in. If a slap hitter simply wanted to make it 6-1 instead of 6-0, he would simply go for the long ball. Talk about "playing against percentages which usually results in an out." (your quote)

Moderator: Readers, back on topic please. Posts that do not refer to Ichiro will be removed.

Ichiro's teammates obviously have a reason to gripe. His 2008 batting stats, when compared to his career averages, were down across the board ! Everything from Runs, Hits, Doubles, Triples, Homeruns, RBI's, and worse yet his Batting Average were all off. Slap hitters at 34 years of age are pretty much worthless. Time for Ichiro to hit the weights, bulk up, and fine tune that homerun swing, or his days in the majors could be numbered.