Gender issues: Italian woman boxer hurt by opponent, quits bout after 46 seconds

Van Der Vorst still strongly disagrees with critics of the IOC's handling of the Olympic tournament, specifically the eligibility of women's boxers Imane Khelif of Algeria

This biological male boxer completely obliterated the Italian girl in just 45 seconds and floored.

The Italian girl left the ring in tears claiming it was unfair and the crowd agree with the girl.

Male boxers vs. girls is violence against women.

Khelif was literally born a women she just has a genetic mutation which causes her to have more testosterone.

A fair amount of olympic athletes are olympics athletes because of genetic mutations or major genetic advantages. Also she's only had 5 knock outs in 50 fights and has a 9-5 winning losing score so idk it seems like a skills issue for the Italian.

I just have to think conservative transphobes are just brainless at this.

Imane Khelif was AFAB, grew up socialised as female…. And still identifies as female. What do the bigots want her to do? Transition to male? I thought they hated that.

There are plenty of tall, muscly women who are dominating other sports, but notably they are white so are not getting the same abuse.

I’m also puzzled at the logic of a woman being born female, living life as a female, entered multiple Olympics as a female can suddenly be a man because she hits hard?

XY vs XX. Science.

Did we witnessing a brutal televised assault?

The poisonous toxic world associated with gender identity politics now insists that a person gender on a passport stands elevates about the law of nature, of science?

Then a new strain/low of IOC “Wokery” not only condones a staged violent forty five second beating from a biological male, in a boxing ring, to a biological female, but sets a horrendous frightening president that women sport will sooner or later slowly but surely become defunct.

Boxing is hideous , not even a sport and should be terminated at olympics .It's not the kind of thing we should be watching for pleasure .

Khelif was literally born a women she just has a genetic mutation which causes her to have more testosterone

The genetic mutation is that "she" has internal testicles.

Solution to this non problem should be women (real women) and others (men and those not real women).

Imane Khelif is a cisgender woman.

She was born female, was registered as a girl at birth, is legally a woman & continues to identify as a woman. She also comes from Algeria where it is illegal to transition.

Is transphobia now so bad that even cisgender women cannot be women if they don’t comply with a certain woman ideal-type?

Ted Cruz's, JD Vance's & Trump's tweets about Imane Khelif would indicate this is the case.

On Thursday, Khelif will fight Italy’s Angela Carini at the North Paris Arena.

Well, I have news—Carini abandoned the fight after 46 seconds (imho, this news should be on JTtoday—this deserves all the attention in the world) because, of course, she didn’t want to be punched in the face by a… man and put herself in danger (well done, Carini, I’m sure it wasn’t an easy decision but you’re safe and that’s the most important thing). A disgrace, IOC, and the moment the Olympics died a little. The other athletes should abandon their fights too and let him stand in the podium all alone. One of the (many) reasons why people still support Trump (he said he will ban biological males from competing in women’s sports).

—

Note: My bad—it IS on JT. Good job (as always), JT. Thank you.

Khelif was born with a rare condition "intersex" , XY (male) chromosomes are present, all can determine a number of male physical attributes.

The IOC subsequently self determined Khelif adhoc gender criteria all in the name of inclusion, no matter the brutal nature of boxing as a competitive contact sport.

To then refuse to say or provide the evidence for such a reckless decision, even how or why, simply stating that Khelif met their 'criteria'.

I don't know what the problem is. The chromosomes decide male/female. The person's feelings about whether they identify as a man or a woman don't enter into it.

The genetic mutation is that "she" has internal testicles.

She has had a vagina from birth.

In reality, she was born female and was registered as a girl at birth by a doctor.

Testosterone helps build muscle by generating proteins, which then increases muscle strength.

So yes, i think it is a bit unfair for her to compete with other females even if she herself is identify as a female. The main issue is that she hold a advantage in her physical strength over other females which makes it unfair to even call it a fair competition.

asdfgtr

Today 07:28 am JST

Khelif was literally born a women she just has a genetic mutation which causes her to have more testosterone

Nope XY chromosome not XX, not XXY, not YYX .

This is why Khelif was disqualified after DNA test.

@BertieWooster, Antiquesaving

> The chromosomes decide male/female. 

So you're saying that if you are born with a penis, then you may be a female?

Got it.

There’s two trans boxers in the Olympics 

Laughably wrong.

“I have not seen one single test that is proving that (the boxers are) transgender,” Van Der Vorst said. “That’s the reason why it’s not very respectful for the boxers who are competing here ... to speak about them in these terms. That’s what I’m trying to stress. When there is proof, yeah, that’s a different situation. But I haven’t seen anything that proves it.”

As is the JT headline. A deliberate click-bait to the knuckle-draggers. This will get them frothing at the mouth in an outrage.

An able body athlete can't compete in the paralympics , so why can a biological male compete in a female event?

It's not phobia, discrimination etc its logic female sports =for females

Male sports= for males

In reality, she was born female and was registered as a girl at birth by a doctor.

She was born female, was registered as a girl at birth, is legally a woman & continues to identify as a woman. She also comes from Algeria where it is illegal to transition.

Why is this relevant? Had this person been born in a country with a more advanced medical system, they would have been recognised as male but with a birth defect. Just because some poorly educated doctor in Algeria looked down at a babies genitals and ticked a box 20 years ago doesn't mean women boxers should be put in danger today.

She is not a Transgender, she born as a biological woman..

Just because some poorly educated doctor in Algeria looked down at a babies genitals and ticked a box

So you're saying that if you are born with a penis, then you may be a female?

Got it.

The reality for Angela Carini of Italy brutal beating, the physical advantages of the presence of male XY chromosome are clearly stated in the photo above.

Wake up.

M3 well researched stated, all in a single paragraph.

asdfgtr

Today 08:40 am JST

@BertieWooster, Antiquesaving

> The chromosomes decide male/female.

> So you're saying that if you are born with a penis, then you may be a female?

> Got it.

If by some freak of nature that was possible then yes if YY but good luck finding one!

Ask yourselves these questions.

Q. 1-) why do we have different categories in boxing (not allowing a 150 kg to fight a 51kg boxer)?

Generally accepted answer : because it gives them an unfair advantage.

Q: 2-) why don't we let men fight women in the same weight category?

Generally accepted answer: again because it gives them an unfair advantage!

Q:3-) if we have categories because certain physical aspects give unfair advantages then shouldn't transgenders be clarified in the same way and get their own category?

Q: 4-) if there is no unfair advantage like some like to pretend there isn't, why are there no female to male transgenders competing in the male categories?

Just to give a comparison.

Soccer/football, in the world cup there are around 80 to 96 men playing as women in the professional level but not a single male transgender, not a single female to male transgender in the Olympics or in any top level in sports.

All the female to male transgender in the Olympics outside boxing are competing as women and now even requested or tried competing as men.

But lets keep to the delusion that male to female transgender don't have any advantage!

carpslidy

Today 08:47 am JST

An able body athlete can't compete in the paralympics , so why can a biological male compete in a female event?

What if the athlete identifies as disabled (Transabled)? Should be Good to go then, based on precedent with transgender.

@Antiquesaving,

So you firmly believe that if you are born with a penis, then you may be a female.

Got it.

> why do we have different categories in boxing (not allowing a 150 kg to fight a 51kg boxer)?

Generally accepted answer : because it gives them an unfair advantage.

Ask yourselves these questions:

Doesn't being tall give people from an unfair advantage in the NBA?

By your logic, shouldn't the NBA be forced to create new NBA categories for people of more modest stature?

So is male violence against women now an Olympic sport?

The woke Olympics where a man can break a woman’s nose.

Whats next?

I am not for this but I assume the main concerning query I have, is what sporting morals this person and others are promoting. Yeah do your gender stuff but I question their need to compete in a now inferior competition. All sportsperson compete and keep on competing most of their life they even digress due to their age and ability but to digress due to your gender change is not sportpersonship.

asdfgtr

Today 09:19 am JST

@Antiquesaving,

> So you firmly believe that if you are born with a penis, then you may be a female.

Got it.

Not what I said but you can keep trying to twist things if it makes you feel better!

But you could try reality including what I wrote without editing it to suit what you want.

I said

"If by some freak of nature that was possible then yes if YY but good luck finding one!"

Did you forget to put in the YY and good luck finding one?

Why do people think they are winning something by editing out stuff others wrote to falsely claimed things?

why do we have different categories in boxing (not allowing a 150 kg to fight a 51kg boxer)?

> Generally accepted answer : because it gives them an unfair advantage.

> Ask yourselves these questions:

> Doesn't being tall give people from an unfair advantage in the NBA?

> By your logic, shouldn't the NBA be forced to create new NBA categories for people of more modest stature?

And I was expecting that exact reply.

Funny but that is the one thing all transgender advocates use, the NBA !

Can you find anything better?

Now here is s challenge, look up notable transgender athletes. Then look up the "trans men" list.

Let us know how many chose to compete as men and how well they did if/once they chose to compete as men.

The one we always get told about is Patricio Manuel and that she/he won the first 2 professional fights, but those saying this leave out she/he was fighting both no Ranking boxers, 3rd fight was against a 535 / 1,868 rank and Patricio was knocked out in 21 seconds!

All the other "notable" transgender men remained competing as women or were quickly gone/failed as soon as the tried competing as men!

The fighter was born a female, not a male. But if you want an opinion that would really matter, then ask the Irish female fighter that defeated her. Amy Broadhurst said, "Personally I don't think she has done anything to "cheat". I thinks it’s the way she was born and that's out of her control. The fact that she has been beaten by 9 females before says it all."

To everyone saying "but she was born a woman!"

Says who? Him? His coach? Why are we just supposed to take someone's word for that and run with it?

Note: To the ones downvoting my post/trying to find excuses because of the way he/she was born: did you see that first punch? He/she hits like a man—simple—you can’t blame a girl for not wanting to get punched in the face by some dude. Violence against women is now an Olympic sport and it’s unbelievable how some people are actually supporting this nonsense.

Everytime this subject comes up, the pro Transgender come out with the same 2 or 3 talking points

1-) what about tall players advantage in the NBA.

2-) what about the ones with xxy/yyx chromosomes.

3-) why do people only complain about transgender women.

These 3 will be repeated over and over again.

A:

1-) not relevant and applies to WNBA, no short people there either, this is just a sad attempt at justifying a delusion.

2-) extremely rare, I repeat extremely rare and that should be dealt with separately in this case the test came back XY and only XY.

3-) because no trans man has ever taken a position away from a biological male, a world record or succeeded professionally in the men's category, which should tell us something.

Now tell us again how we are transphobic.

This has gotten so strange that people are now being told if they refused to date a transgender they are transphobic.

This is where we are now, men beating up women

One look at this person shows that he/she has an unfair advantage because of her height, size, and strength. Men should NOT be permitted to fight women.

There should really be NO debate whatsoever on this. Common sense.

The Left used to be pro-women, but no longer. It's amazing how deeply held values change over time.

Intersex people aren't trans. They were born that way. They had no choice. It is very much like the way some twins come out co-joined. A biological reality. Intersex. Not trans sex. It's not that hard to follow.

Gene Hennigh

Today 10:36 am JST

Intersex people aren't trans. They were born that way. They had no choice. It is very much like the way some twins come out co-joined. A biological reality. Intersex. Not trans sex. It's not that hard to follow

Yes but in this case again tested XY not intersex XYY or YYX.

So it isn't the situation!

Anyone know why the boxing association had Khelif tested?

Well because Khelif had extremely high testosterone, and the results came back XY again only XY meaning not intersex.

Now what if a biological female boxer started taking testosterone injections and hormones and tested positive for those?

Answer, they would be disqualified for doping and banned probably for life even if they only took enough to be equal with people like Khelif and transgender women.

So just that should tell us that there is an unfair advantage otherwise let the biological women use male hormones to the level of Transgender women!

Yeah I know that's not fair, it isn't the same thing, etc...all the same excuses rejecting science and facts.

Born male have higher testosterone, larger hearts, larger lungs, higher blood volume and none of the 3 later change even after fully transitioning.

Testosterone may go down but the heart, lungs and blood volume remain larger and higher.

Boxing is hideous , not even a sport and should be terminated at olympics .It's not the kind of thing we should be watching for pleasure .

This, thank you! I do not understand what you would do this to another human for "sport". It is barbaric and belong to any other time.

If it was so fair, where are all the transgender men competing against men? It doesn't happen. We all know why. Set limits for the body chemicals and muscle density, then setup boxing to forget about male/female and have matches set based on similar characteristics. Seems like that would be "fair".

I think everyone is misunderstanding this, this is not a trans athlete, this is someone born a woman but with naturally high testosterone levels.

Most skilled athletes are born with some natural advantages, that's how they get to the level they do even when they do the same training as others.

Problem is that we don't allow someone to for example raise their testosterone levels artificially, so it does feel like an unfair advantage, but that's basically the same case for every athlete, some more than others.

We could ban everyone that goes over a specific level, natural or unnatural, but that would be unfair for those born that way, it's not an easy decision.

If a man wants to become a woman or a woman wants to become a man, that's their business.

However, it is unfair to allow these men who have become women to compete with women, especially at the highest levels of sport competition like the Olympic Games. The two are simply not equal. On the other hand, if it's a woman who's changed into a man, then it's more of an uphill battle . . . but still the two are not equal in terms of physical performance.

That wasn't a fair fight, Khelif should only be allowed to fight against men or others who changed their gender as well

JRO: You're missing the forest because of the woods. This female is a multiplex rarity and passes the sportsperson pub test. The Tokyo games where standard where not as the same as Paris games tell you that they got it completely wrong. Having to adjust the standard, you now see no gender change competitor in any women events then female Syc Swimming where the gender change is not a digression but more competitive for the gender change competitor.

All of this transgender stuff in the press these days is so confusing, it is out of control. If Khelif was a new born in today's world she woud be considered a female, just like she was when she was actually born, her parents knew she was a female as did the doctor who registered her birth. The whole issue can be, and is, very complex, in years gone by no one bothered or cared about the XX or XY thing, because it was not understood, and even now, medical experts are still arguing over it. About the fight itself, there is no doubt that Khelif had the physical advantage, and that in itself shoud have been enough not to stage it in the first place.

Bogus. There needs to be a separate category. What a travesty!

Cannot change sex or chromosomes. It is funny how the Olympic Committee does everything to ban athletes from having trace elements of steroids, hormones, and other performance enhancing drugs, yet give a pass on transgenders that regularly inject steroids, hormones, etc into their bodies.

South Park described the situation a while ago and hit the nail on the head.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=URz-RYEOaig

The pc crowd can pretend all they like, but reality bites when a man fights a woman. Insanity.

It’s never an issue the other way is it? Trans “men” never want to fight real men or compete against them. But it’s verboten to mention THAT.

This is for example like saying only men with type O blood are allowed to use steroids and play in the same sports as men who can't use steroids. The unfair advantage is what makes it wrong especially in sports that are this physical. There needs to be more rules to make it fair. Otherwise it is no different than just having the sport fully integrated where gender doesn't matter

Or if in the future people can get cybernetic enhancements they should only play against others with cybernetic enhancements. In my opinion what happened at the Olympics was abuse against women

@ JRO

Khelif’s XY chromosomes denote a male.

JRO

Today 11:40 am JST

I think everyone is misunderstanding this, this is not a trans athlete, this is someone born a woman but with naturally high testosterone levels.

Again this is false!

The DNA came back XY not XX not even XYY or YYX.

So not a female not a woman!

I know feeling matter more than scientific facts.

Funny but during the COVID pandemic all the same people now telling us that chromosomes and scientific facts don't matter were the same people screaming at the top of their lungs "follow the science".

Well I now as back then still say that!

Follow the science and the science says XY is male, the science says male naturally have bigger hearts, lungs more blood volume and higher hemoglobin on top of higher testosterone.

Feelings have no place in science.

But it is hilarious to watch the "follow the science" people now say ignore the science!

Everyone is saying Imane is Trans. She's not. Someone thats Trans is going trough a transformation she hasn't had any meds or surgery.

The DNA came back XY not XX not even XYY or YYX.

Source? The IBA said that their “gender tests” are undisclosed.

Additionally, Khelif competed in the 2020 Olympics and the 2022 world championships without trouble - and was eliminated by fellow women both times.

She is a woman. This is not up for debate. All of a sudden, the “it’s easy to tell man and woman, just look at their genitals” crowd are becoming armchair geneticists. We’re not buying it.

I saw the fight. The Italian boxer was jabbed twice, that’s it. I’m not sure why people are suddenly clutching their pearls that boxing, a sport about punching people, involves people getting punched.

stormcrow

Today 11:46 am JST

On the other hand, if it's a woman who's changed into a man, then it's more of an uphill battle . . . but still the two are not equal in terms of physical performance.

What the article failed to mention is that there are more than just the 2 transgender mentioned here that are competing in the Olympics today.

So why wasn't this mentioned?

Because all the rest are transgender men AKA women that identify as male, so why wasn't this pointed out? Because they are all competing in the women's category of their respective sports and not in the men's as they claim to identify as.

This is because not one would qualify to compete at the men's level.

But let's not talk about that, lets continue with the delusion biological men and women are no different and biological men don't have any physical advantages over the same size biological female, science is wrong and transgender and their supporters feelings are right.

It’s never an issue the other way is it? Trans “men” never want to fight real men or compete against them. But it’s verboten to mention THAT.

This is just untrue. Mack Beggs was a teenage wrestler who wanted to wrestle with the boys. But Texas rules meant he had to wrestle with girls, even though he didn’t want to, they didn’t want him to wrestle with them (because they respect his identity) and the parents didn’t either.

More pertinent perhaps, though, is that THIS YEAR there was a trans man boxer in the Olympics, Hergie Bacyadan.

”It’s verboten to mention that” = you haven’t bothered to do even the most cursory of research.

Because all the rest are transgender men AKA women that identify as male, so why wasn't this pointed out? Because they are all competing in the women's category of their respective sports and not in the men's as they claim to identify as.

Source? I’m happy to wait.

Express sister

Today 01:25 pm JST

The DNA came back XY not XX not even XYY or YYX.

> Source? The IBA said that their “gender tests” are undisclosed.

Actually you need to provide the source of !

I will.

On 24 March 2023, IBA disqualified athletes Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif from the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships New Delhi 2023," the IBA said. "This disqualification was a result of their failure to meet the eligibility criteria for participating in the women’s competition, as set and laid out in the IBA Regulations.

Based on DNA tests, we identified a number of athletes who tried to trick their colleagues into posing as women. According to the results of the tests, it was proved that they have XY chromosomes. Such athletes were excluded from competition," Kremlev said.

Khelif and Lin Yu-ting were not named directly but we're disqualified at that time of this statement.

So unless you have another reason for disqualification when the IBA clearly stated that athletes were disqualified for XY chromosomes, I am ready to hear it, but come with some facts like I just did.

Express sister

Today 01:25 pm JST

Tell us, if all the XY male etc...has no bearing then why are there no YY competing at the top levels in the men's categories?

We heard a lot about Patricio Manuel boxing and how great he/she was doing and all the hype that Patricio beat 2 men in the first 2 professional fights, funny no one mentioned they were both unranked.

Patricio's 3rd fight however was against a ranked fighter 535 / 1,868 ranking and it took 21 seconds for Patricio to be knocked out.

Even if Khelif is as you claim a woman with XY or XYY or YYX, how is it we don't see even one like that competing in any of the men's categories?

As a person who is against violence against women, I think it's wrong that a person who carries the Y chromosome should ever hit a person who doesn't.

The Y chromosome turns on testosterone production and gives them a physical advantage.

Men should not hit women.

The left is out to lunch.

Personally, I’m fine with this insanity. I don’t watch the Olympics anymore (Im through with the corruption) and have no clue who wins gold medals etc or care in the least. So this bizarre trans lgbtq+etcetc stuff is just the icing on the cake.

More, please!

Algeria's Imane Khelif, right, looks on after knocking down Italy's Angela Carini in their women's 66kg preliminary boxing match

The photo caption is wrong. This photo was taken after the referee stood together with both boxers for the decision announcement and then held Khelif's hand up in the are to award the win. This is why neither is wearing gloves or headgear.

Carini being on her knees is not the result of being "knocked down", and she is this way due to emotionally collapsing in anguish and resentment after feeling the need to forfeit.

Moderator: Yes, you are right. The caption has been corrected.

Express sister

Today 01:35 pm JST

Because all the rest are transgender men AKA women that identify as male, so why wasn't this pointed out? Because they are all competing in the women's category of their respective sports and not in the men's as they claim to identify as.

> Source? I’m happy to wait

You can look for yourself but hey I will help.

Nikki Hiltz and Quinn both have flip flopped between saying they are trans men and non-binary and back and forth but remain on the women's teams.

There are a few more.

Funny thing was both came out as trans men, then when asked why if they claim to be men they don't try playing in men's leagues they then changed to "non-binary" !

How convenient.

Express sister

Today 01:52 pm JST

Tell us, if all the XY male etc...has no bearing then why are there no YY competing at the top levels in the men's categories?

> Probably because there are no people with YY chromosomes. Given transphobes always harp on about grade 2 biology, perhaps it’s a subject you could revisit

Sorry if it was difficult to realize a typo should be XX as is all my previous comments.

But I think you knew that.

So I will ask again with correct typing.

Tell us, if all the XY male etc...has no bearing then why are there no XX competing at the top levels in the men's categories?

Ball is in your court!

Tell us, if all the XY male etc...has no bearing then why are there no XX competing at the top levels in the men's categories?

Ball is in your court!

As has been mentioned, a trans man competed in the men’s category in boxing in the Olympics his year.

Ball is in your goal. 1-0.

we live in strange times.

when man who feels like woman compete with woman at olympics.

dont need to say more.

these olympics will come to history as most weird ones.from many aspects.

feel sorry abt italian lady.

Express sister

Today 02:19 pm JST

Tell us, if all the XY male etc...has no bearing then why are there no XX competing at the top levels in the men's categories?

> Ball is in your court!

> As has been mentioned, a trans man competed in the men’s category in boxing in the Olympics his year.

> Ball is in your goal. 1-0

Are you talking about Hergie Bacyadan?

He/she lost to Li Qian in the women's category!

Hergie Bacyadan was not fighting in the men's.

But if you know another one please give us the name.

But thank you for making my point Hergie Bacyadan is a trans man but is still competing as a woman.

This is actually not a trans. It seems that she has the Swyer syndrome also called 46,XY. In Swyer syndrome, individuals have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome in each cell, which is the pattern typically found in boys and men; however, they have female reproductive structures. So she is born as a female. And in fact Algeria would not have permitted one of their athletes to be a trans as a side remark.

Now this does not exclude the valid question whether or not she has some physical advantages given her higher production of testosterone associated with her syndrome. That’s a perfectly resonable question to ask

It should be simple: If you have a vagina, you're a female. If you have a penis, then you're male. It's as simple as that.

daito_hak

Today 02:33 pm JST

This is actually not a trans. It seems that she has the Swyer syndrome also called 46,XY. In Swyer syndrome

Possible, but the reason Khelif was tested was because of high testosterone something Swyer syndrome doesn't have.

There are other abnormalities in with the external genitalia look female but no or in rare cases a few number of internal female orgasms are present.

Meaning no ovaries, no uterus etc..and often male testis are present internally leading to the high testosterone levels.

We have seen people live and say they are a doctor getting away with it for decades but turned out they never went to medical school.

In this case this would apply to people that refuse to accept that gender is a complicated construct and that the best experts in the related fields completely support the people that define their own gender according to their own will and based on simple biological determination.

These people like to make appeals to authority and impose their personal opinion as if it was more valuable than what the actual experts say about the situation. They are pretending to be something they are not.

One look at this person shows that he/she has an unfair advantage because of her height, size, and strength. Men should NOT be permitted to fight women.

I don't think that's a fair statement to make. Just because someone "looks" like a man, doesn't mean they are. I've seen a lot of butch looking females, who are actual women. On the flip side, I've seen a lot of feminine looking men who are actually men.

The one way that can't be disputed is by looking at what's under the hood. When a doctor holds a baby for the first time, it's easy to see for them if it's a boy or a girl. That should be the determination in a case such as this.

As for the testosterone debate. That's a bit trickier. If they tried to increase their testosterone artificially, then that's wrong and should be banned. However, if they were naturally born with more testosterone, then it's not their fault. It would be hard to draw the line as to determine how much is too much.

Transgender athletes of course, should not be allowed to compete in female sports. But why punish someone who was naturally born with more testosterone than others? If we start to go that route, then there would be several top female boxers and mixed martial artists who would conceivably fall in that gray zone.

As for the testosterone debate. That's a bit trickier. If they tried to increase their testosterone artificially, then that's wrong and should be banned. However, if they were naturally born with more testosterone, then it's not their fault. It would be hard to draw the line as to determine how much is too much.

Transgender athletes of course, should not be allowed to compete in female sports. But why punish someone who was naturally born with more testosterone than others? If we start to go that route, then there would be several top female boxers and mixed martial artists who would conceivably fall in that gray zone.

And that is what you call a nuanced opinion.

The black and whiters could learn a lesson.

virusrex

Today 03:24 pm JST

You claim to be a person of science.

Are you going to deny that those born male do not have on average in general a physical advantage over those born female?

Are you going to reject the science that born males have a larger heart, larger lung capacity, higher blood volume and Higher hemoglobin?

If so then you are not a person of science but of feelings and opinion.

Science not feelings has proven the above and proven these do not change even after transitioning.

A biological female transitioning to male does not increase their heart size, lung capacity or blood volume.

And a born male transitioning to female does not suddenly have their heart shrink lungs shrink and blood volume drop.

This have be scientifically proven.

Are you going to say that all the research and data is false and feelings are what matters?

Are you going to deny that those born male do not have on average in general a physical advantage over those born female?

This person wasn't born male, so your question is lacking context within the discussion at hand.

A biological female transitioning to male does not increase their heart size, lung capacity or blood volume.

This person didn't transition, so your question is lacking context within the discussion at hand.

Let's stick to the topic at hand. It's already nuanced enough, without bringing in other agendas.

Having said all of that, I do believe that the type of sport a person competes in matters. Even though I would not ban someone who was born legally female, but with a higher level of testosterone from playing female sports, I would consider having them banned from contact sports like boxing. People's lives should take precedence above all.

You claim to be a person of science.

Really? where exactly?

You understand that when you make an imaginary claim the center of your argument it can be defeated simply by asking you to prove that claim was made.

Are you going to deny that those born male do not have on average in general a physical advantage over those born female?

That is irrelevant to your claim that chromosomes or physical characteristics are the only factor to determine gender. In this the science clearly and unequivocally contradicts you.

Of course a completely differnt topic is about having advantages, differences in physical ability are common, and regulatory bodies do not automatically disqualify participants in sports activities for them, left handed people can have advantages in some ball sports, the same for those with abnormal height, weight, elasticity.

If so then you are not a person of science but of feelings and opinion.

Because you believe all participants have exactly the same physical abilities or else there is no valid competition? you need to provide a citation where this is a requirement.

Science not feelings has proven the above and proven these do not change even after transitioning.

Which again in no way support your claim that gender is decided purely on biological terms, now you are trying to discuss competitivity and fairness, and are confused about what it means, thinking it requires absolute uniformity on capacities when this is not thecase.

Not to count that since this case is not about any kind of transitioning makes your arguments irrelevant.

There will always be differences in capabilities, but these differences can be considered fair, specially when they can be demonstrated to be natural, just because you don't want to consider a person a certain gender that does not make it so, in this the scientific knowledge completely contradicts you.

How come none of you complained when she competed in the Tokyo Olympics only a couple of years ago?

Futaro Gamagori

Today 03:49 pm JST

How come none of you complained when she competed in the Tokyo Olympics only a couple of years ago?

Not sure where you have been, but the reason for most of the sports now banning men competing as women, is a direct result of all the people complaining about it is the previous Olympics and other international competitions.

Not sure where you have been, but the reason for most of the sports now banning men competing as women, is a direct result of all the people complaining about it is the previous Olympics and other international competitions.

She competed the last Olympics, who complained about her then?

Antiqueaving,

You posted this:

On 24 March 2023, IBA disqualified athletes Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif from the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships New Delhi 2023," the IBA said. "This disqualification was a result of their failure to meet the eligibility criteria for participating in the women’s competition, as set and laid out in the IBA Regulations.

Based on DNA tests, we identified a number of athletes who tried to trick their colleagues into posing as women. According to the results of the tests, it was proved that they have XY chromosomes. Such athletes were excluded from competition," Kremlev said.

But are the two paragraphs not quite separate statements. It's not clear whether the second relates to Khelif and Yu-ting.

Regarding the first paragraph, the link below also includes this:

Point to note, the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential.

So it doesn't seem clear what kind of test was done.

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

Whatever, I feel sorry for people in this situation. It must be frustrating.

virusrex

Today 03:49 pm JST

Ah the avoidance.

Nice try.

Ok if you are right.

Please list the female to male athletes that are top ranked in men's categories!

Good luck.

The fact not a single female to male has ever succeeded in the men's category in any major sport , show logically say something.

But I guess it is just their feelings

The fact not a single female to male has ever succeeded in the men's category in any major sport , show logically say something.

This person was not a female transitioning to the men's category, so your comment has no relevance within the context of the discussion at hand.

This biological male boxer completely obliterated the Italian girl in just 45 seconds and floored.

The Italian girl left the ring in tears claiming it was unfair and the crowd agree with the girl.

Male boxers vs. girls is violence against women.

This is sadly the new woke era. I watched that madness unfold live and was just disappointed and disgusted this was even allowed. Anyone thinking that a biological born male has the right to fight against a biological born woman needs a brain alignment. The guy was faster, stronger and this woman was just outmatched in every conceivable way, an embarrassing moment for the Olympics and for in 20 years from now people will be asking and rightfully how we could have allowed this this shameful moment in time to happen. Because of what this man did, she was traumatized, she quit the sport, shameful.

Here is a summary of all the arguments by those that support this and transgender women in women's sport:

Ignore biology, ignore facts, ignore reality, ignore the results, ignore the actual women, everyone against this is a bigot, transphobic, far right, did I forget anything?

Oh and here are the top 3 counters to facts.

Why aren't people complaining and trans men ?

A: because no trans man has ever made it to the top tier in the men's category.

What about the MBA and tall people?

Yeah this will be used on every comments section and in every New interview.

It is the same talking points and zero science and the feelings will be used.

"If they feel they are women then they are women."

But feelings are not facts and boy did we hear a lot about follow the science in 2020 and 2021 and one of the biggest "follow the science" people here is now saying feelings are what counts.

How ironic is that?

This is sadly the new woke era. I watched that madness unfold live and was just disappointed and disgusted this was even allowed. Anyone thinking that a biological born male has the right to fight against a biological born woman needs a brain alignment. The guy was faster, stronger and this woman was just outmatched in every conceivable way, an embarrassing moment for the Olympics and for in 20 years from now people will be asking and rightfully how we could have allowed this this shameful moment in time to happen. Because of what this man did, she was traumatized, she quit the sport, shameful.

Yes, exactly.

Ah the avoidance

What avoidance? I addressed the claims you made that were unscientific, clarified that advantages are not automatically unfair and that in this case there is no transition happening at all.

If your new point is that transition is what makes it unfair (which again is not so automatically) you would be arguing that her case is not problematic since it is a natural advantage and it is a woman according to science.

You are automatically assuming an advantage is unfair, and I already demonstrate this is not the case.

This is sadly the new woke era.

There is nothing wrong with following the science, this article is not about a biological male it is about baselessly claiming the advantages she was born with are unfair, but failing to make any argument apart from antiscientific prejudices. Gender is not something that is decided purely by biology, athletes having natural advantages are not something rare, if anything it would be the opposite, and not all advantages are automatically unfair, since she has not transitioned the argument you need to make (and support with objective arguments that would apply the same for all participants) is that the advantages she has are unfair because they ruin competition. Do you have those specific arguments?

Ignore biology, ignore facts, ignore reality, ignore the results, ignore the actual women, everyone against this is a bigot, transphobic, far right, did I forget anything?

Strawman fallacies, the argument is that gender is not only biological, what you should ignore are claims that run contrary to what the scientific consensus can demonstrate, and that people that people that say a born woman is transgender are obviously mistaken and confused in their arguments.

A: because no trans man has ever made it to the top tier in the men's category.

You understand you are saying that for you some natural advantages (arbitrarily) are bad but others don't, while are natural disadvantages are good.

"If they feel they are women then they are women."

And they are, and until an unfair advantage that ruins competition is demonstrated they should be allowed to compete. You are skipping this very important requirement and pretend your opinion about their gender is enough to decide the situaiton.

But feelings are not facts

And since the scientific consensus is that gender is not something decided purely by biology then your feelings about it are not facts either. You still need to follow the science even if you don't like what it says.

She has had a vagina from birth.

Yes, but no womb or other "women's bits". But with internal testicles just like the South African runner Caster Semenya. Not her fault, not "trans" but also not a woman. So shouldn't be in the women's event.

albaleo

Today 03:55 pm JST

So it doesn't seem clear what kind of test was done.

A little more searching would have brought up several articles on this.

The 2 were disqualified in New Delhi for failing the gender eligibility tests.

Seems straight forward enough, not testosterone levels or any other thing people are trying to claim.

But more information

IBA president Umar Kremlev also told Russian news agency TASS at the time that both Khelif and Lin had "XY chromosomes", according to a report from Reuters.

https://www.sportbible.com/boxing/olympic-games-imane-khelif-reason-why-compete-ban-175201-20240801

So seems clear why and both withdrew their appeals.

If they were really sure they are female then, I would have expected them to go through with their appeals.

virusrex

Today 04:42 pm JST

And since the scientific consensus is that gender is not something decided purely by biology

Actually that is not true.

There is absolutely no consensus, to be exact there is a serious debate with more and more actual scientists and doctors coming forth against the transgender agenda despite the threats.

And yes threats.

The spudo science of psychology and a portion of psychiatrists came up with this so-called consensus.

But as we have been seeing in resent months even the threats are no longer working.

Transitioning of children being stopped in the previous most liberal countries. More and more science based banning of trans athletes.

If it was so fact based then why do all the ones in power threaten anyone that says otherwise, why do they shut down research if it starts showing results they don't like.

Any professor, psychologist psychiatrist, doctor that dates disagreed, gets threatened with suspension or recertification a situation we have never seen with any other subject.

This alone tells us how weak the supposed consensus is.

When you have to resort to threatening to remove the license and certification of a professional because they disagree and are conducting research that may contradict what you say then you know that your position is weak.

There is nothing wrong with following the science,

You can believe you are Peter Pan as well, you’re right to do so, doesn’t make it true.

this article is not about a biological male it is about baselessly claiming the advantages she was born with are unfair,

Absolutely and should have never been allowed

but failing to make any argument apart from antiscientific prejudices. Gender is not something that is decided purely by biology,

She was a he, can’t fit a triangle in a square peg

athletes having natural advantages are not something rare, if anything it would be the opposite, and not all advantages are automatically unfair, since she has not transitioned the argument you need to make (and support with objective arguments that would apply the same for all participants) is that the advantages she has are unfair because they ruin competition. Do you have those specific arguments?

She was a he, he is a biological born male. No matter how scientifically you want to stretch and filet the argument, the bottomline is, he should have never been allowed to take on this woman, and he should have had the common sense to abstain from fighting any woman.

bass4funkToday 05:18 pm JST

She was a he, can’t fit a triangle in a square peg

But you can fit both triangles and squares into the set of people you would be attracted to because you don't perform a blood test before the first date.

Mr Kipling

"She has had a vagina from birth."

Yes, but no womb or other "women's bits". But with internal testicles...

This is documented where?

But you can fit both triangles and squares into the set of people you would be attracted to because you don't perform a blood test before the first date.

And still in the end you come up with a guy thinking he is a woman and is allowed to participate in a sporting event with an actual woman.

There were warnings against stigmatising Khelif and a "witch hunt" over her eligibility. IOC spokesman Mark Adams attempted to shut down any uncertainty by insisting: "They are women in their passports and it's stated that this is the case, that they are female."

"Khelif, 25, has always competed as a woman — including during the Tokyo Olympics — and there’s no indication that she identifies as transgender or intersex, the latter referring to people born with sex characteristics that do not fit strictly into the male-female gender binary."

Logan Paul admits to spreading misinformation about Olympic boxer Imane Khelif, sparking a heated debate on gender in sports.

The facts are that she is not trans, was not born a man and those are the requirements.

Perhaps the requirements need to be changed for people with female genitalia but having a genetic abnormality that gives a male chromosome.

I would be open to that.

But she is not violating the rules in place as they are currently and she is objectively not a trans woman.

Musk has also been known to spread transphobic hate on Twitter, the social media platform that he owns. Last month, Musk stated that his trans daughter Jenna Wilson was “not a girl” and was “tricked” into authorizing trans-related medical treatment for her when she was 16. Wilson later took part in an interview with NBC, where she called referred to Musk as an absent father who was “cold,” “cruel” and “narcissistic.”

Nature can sometime deal you a rotten hand, IOC spokesman Mark Adams belief that gender anomalies can simply be forgiven ignored in a contact sport, waved away with a review of ones passport has contributed created this IOC PR media circus.

The facts are that she is not trans, was not born a man and those are the requirements. 

Mormons think polygamy is natural and normal, doesn’t make it right.

Perhaps the requirements need to be changed for people with female genitalia but having a genetic abnormality that gives a male chromosome. 

I doubt that’s the case

I would be open to that. 

I would be open to you competing with the sex you were born with.

But she is not violating the rules in place as they are currently and she is objectively not a trans woman.

The IOC, the boxing federation are another woke destroyed institution that has utterly failed at protecting women, he should not be anywhere near women.

Here are a few corrections.

Yes there was controversy at the Tokyo Olympics but with the COVID measures in place around the world it was muted.

The reason Khelif was able to compete was because the IOC ironically banned the IBA because the corrupt IOC said the IBA was too corrupt and had problems, now that is funny.

So IBA rules and testing were not followed.

Once tested the results were clear XY chromosomes and high testosterone which means Khelif probably has male organs (testicles) internally.

The IOC is known for corruption so do we know if the decision to permit these two was not related to that?

But again, we never see it the other way, no woman no person with XX is competing at any top level in the men's categories.

This simple fact alone should make any intelligent person ask why that is.

The answer is simple, because they are at a physical disadvantage and cannot succeed beyond the most minor levels.

The fact that so many here will say there is no advantage, it doesn't matter, etc .. but ignore the fact not a single XX not a single trans man is competing in men's categories and succeeding and that most trans male athletes still chose to compete in the women's categories is strange.

Seems straight forward enough, not testosterone levels or any other thing people are trying to claim.

Not at all, specially with who was in charge then.

Actually that is not true.

Completely true, can you bring any institution of medical science in a related field that contradicts this already stablished condition?

No?

That is because there is a consensus.

Fringe people exist for about every topic, so unless you think there is no consensus about the microbe explanation for infection or the shape of the planet Earth this is as clear as it can become.

And yes threats.

No, that is irrelevant, anybody can produce scientific literature for free, pretending all institutions on the planet are being intimidated is again just an excuse for having the evidence against you. Flat earthers and antivaxxers use this excuse all the time to "prove" they are right. You are on their side when you use this.

Transitioning of children being stopped in the previous most liberal countries. More and more science based banning of trans athletes.

Both claims completely, utterly irrelevant to the consensus of gender not being only based on biological terms.

Absolutely and should have never been allowed

Because you say so? sorry but appeals to authority from anonymous accounts are meaningless.

She was a he, can’t fit a triangle in a square peg

Still completely false, no matter how you want to call her she was born and raised a woman.

She was a he, he is a biological born male

Still false and still your appeal to authority meaningless.

Mormons think polygamy is natural and normal, doesn’t make it right.

With the essential difference that at least for the occidental society there are sociological arguments that demonstrate an objective problem with that.

For the determination of gender that do not absolutely depends only on biology this is not the case, trasphobia would be what can be proved negative.

The reason Khelif was able to compete was because the IOC ironically banned the IBA because the corrupt IOC said the IBA was too corrupt and had problems, now that is funny.

Nothing funny, the IBA was corrupt and had problem partly because of botched up invalid arguments for the determination of competitive, having invalid parameters, arbitrary, badly supported by science and that eliminated athletes considered perfectly normal was a consequence of having inept people in charge.

Once tested the results were clear XY chromosomes and high testosterone which means Khelif probably has male organs (testicles) internally.

Still just your claim without any reference to prove it. Repeating something even after repeatedly being asked to bring references instead means you understand this is just a personal claim you are making.

But again, we never see it the other way, no woman no person with XX is competing at any top level in the men's categories.

This is just you again running away from the actual argument that differences exist and they are not automatically unfair or against fair competition.

@aaronagstring

As is the JT headline. A deliberate click-bait to the knuckle-draggers. This will get them frothing at the mouth in an outrage.

Yep. Looks like JT has changed its original outrage farming, click-bait headline:

https://japantoday.com/category/paris-2024-olympics/Italian-woman-boxer-floored-by-transgender-opponent-quits-bout-claiming-it-is-unfair

virusrex

Today 07:23 pm JST

Still just your claim without any reference to prove it. Repeating something even after repeatedly being asked to bring references

Actually I have and multiple times.

IBA president Umar Kremlev said DNA tests “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded."

And I posted the links previously.

I guess actually reading my comments was too dangerous it might not click with your non science.

No?

> That is because there is a consensus.

> Fringe people exist for about every topic

Fringe, that is precious.

Those so-called "fringe" turned out to be right when it came to the transitioning of children and those "fringe" are still sounding the alarm despite the threats.

Funny how that is!

That fringe is composed of a lot of women who are the ones most affected.

Again I say if you are correct, why don't we see trans males taking the podium in male events?

Both claims completely, utterly irrelevant to the consensus of gender not being only based on biological terms.

Sorry do you read the news or just what you agree with.

Did you miss Sweden and the UK stopping transitioning of children? And other countries are now following their lead!

Did you miss Swimming, the World Athletics Council track and field, NAIA, Cycling, etc...and more are being added as the science and facts are being accepted over feelings.

Antique saving

thanks for a clear presentation of the points

Actually I have and multiple times.

Not at all, as clear as you have been unable even on this topic as well, once again you make a claim, proof is asked and your answer is that you have no proof, the same as when you claimed other people said things and you had to go back on that when you could not prove it.

And I posted the links previously.

You have been unable to post any link, just claim you did, which is not the same at all.

Fringe, that is precious.

How would you call a doctor that say microbes do not cause infection or that vaccines poison the soul? that is a valid way of calling people that contradict the consensus without offering any scientific evidence or argument to do it.

Those so-called "fringe" turned out to be right when it came to the transitioning of children

Still not, this is as strong as an argument as saying people turned out correct when they said vaccines would kill billions. Just a baseless claim.

That fringe is composed of a lot of women who are the ones most affected.

Is this the first time you find out people that lose use any and all excuses they can to justify losing? what do you think the women that won against Khelif have to say? that it was unjust and that they recant their wins?

Sorry do you read the news or just what you agree with.

Instead of the links only you can see and that prove what you say? still no single institution on the whole world supporting your personal claim.

Did you miss Sweden and the UK stopping transitioning of children?

You mean the change based on a review found severely lacking and that is rejected by the most important medical association on the UK?

https://www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-to-undertake-an-evaluation-of-the-cass-review-on-gender-identity-services-for-children-and-young-people

Did you miss Swimming, the World Athletics Council track and field, NAIA, Cycling, etc...and more are being added as the science and facts are being accepted over feelings.

Which one said gender is purely biological which is the claim you are supposedly trying to defend? which one said any kind of advantage makes competition unfair? Which one an athlete born and raised a woman can't compete as a woman?

None? then why are you trying to misrepresent their position.

virusrex

Today 08:02 pm JST

Ok got it, Sweden is wrong, the UK is wrong all the research you disagree with is wrong and everything is as you claim, got it.

Oh and puberty blockers is reversible, at least that is what the so-called scientists that you agree with say, but not the actual science as we are now finding out as you can check with the NHS, Mayo clinic, etc..despite the claims just a few years ago, now that more and more adults that underwent pre pubescent transition therapy are now trying to detransition and finding out that once the process is stopped restarting it is no so easy.

But hey what do they know, your groups "feelings" are netter that science and facts.

Ok got it, Sweden is wrong, the UK is wrong all the research you disagree with is wrong and everything is as you claim, got it.

The BMA is the one saying that your argument is invalid since the measure you are trying to defend is based on very flawed science.

Oh and puberty blockers is reversible, at least that is what the so-called scientists that you agree with say, but not the actual science as we are now finding out as you can check with the NHS, Mayo clinic, etc..despite the claims just a few years ago

Goalpost moving much? do you think pancreas or appendix grow again? no? that means surgery to remove them must be also bad and should be banned, right?

What part of the arguments of the BMA depend on reversion? I mean, you are trying to refute what the doctors are saying, trying to use irrelevant things to do it would be less than rationa

But hey what do they know, your groups "feelings" are netter that science and facts.

Feelings are what people try to use when they are called for their lack of actual references, even when they claimed to have many, the scientific consensus is based instead on actual evidence.