tokyo 2020 olympics

New Zealand says huge focus on trans trailblazer at Tokyo Olympics

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Hubbard, an intensely private person

too late for that!

7 ( +10 / -3 )

I understand the decision to want to include everyone in the Olympics and it is the right thing to do.

However there are biological differences between men and women which cannot be modified by making the transition from one gender to the other. In this case I believe that she, due to her transition, gains some advantage over other women competing which is not fair to the other women.

Recognitions and rights for transgender people have increased dramatically over the past few years with much more recognition from governments, etc.

Would it not be more appropriate to adding a transgender portion to the competition? I understand some may see this as a form of denying her the ability to identify how she wishes to but on the contrary it would eliminate any skepticism over any medal she receives.

I am willing to recognize this is a complex issue however if she wins I must confess I will be one of the skeptics of her medal.

I do wish here well and certainly I hope no harm comes to her psychologically but I also completely emphasize with the other woman athletes.

12 ( +14 / -2 )

@Burning Bush

No it does not. People can identify as whatever they want. I have no problem with it. I am not questioning the validity of how she chooses to identify herself.

The statement is what I said it is and nothing else. If she wins the medal I am skeptical because biological factors may contribute to this. I do not question the validity of how she chooses to identify.

8 ( +11 / -3 )

@Tokyo-Engr

The idea of having a separate division to allow for trans-athletes is great, (present it as an open division and let anyone who wants to compete) but it is fundamentally impossible. Trans-athletes, to a point, conflate gender and so sex so they don’t see a distinction between their identity and sex. Creating a third division would likely be taken as an insult as it would force the realization that trans-athletes are not what they identify as.

Simple example, create a woman’s division and trans division. The first thing the trans woman is going to say is “I am a woman and this is discrimination”

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@isoducky

I cannot imagine all of the unintended consequences but that is my idea. You are right it may receive backlash but what else can be done. The fact that this lady is now competing has now opened the bottle and the genie cannot be put back inside so someone needs to figure something out.

@Burning Bush

I do not question the validity of how she chooses to identify.

But you seem to agree that this individual's identity choice does not change the material fact that this individual is biologically different from a woman.

In effect, you imply that biologically speaking, this individual is not a woman.

I do not know enough about the process for changing genders to fully comment on what you say. From what I have read and understand is that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to make a complete biological change. That is why I would have questions if she wins and why I am limiting my thoughts on how she identifies. She is competing and that is the way it is. As I said above the genie cannot be put back into the bottle.

I would have no issue stating that biologically speaking and with the scientific information available to us now I think this is a fact. She chose to identify as a different gender and since the issue can be quite toxic at times I choose to stop at that.

Again; I wish her well but I also have empathy for the other women in the competition and would understand their concerns if they have any. Have any of them expressed concerns? I honestly do not know.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

As a New Zealander, I am embarrassed that Hubbard is being allowed to go the Olympics. Gavin Hubbard was nowhere near Olympic standard, competing as a male.

11 ( +14 / -3 )

@Burning Bush - For further clarity, in my next to last paragraph it should have said she was biologically born as a woman in the beginning.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

they should honestly just have a separate category for these people to compete.

In effect, you imply that biologically speaking, this individual is not a woman.

not according to his chromosomes, bone density, mitochondrial uptake, muscle blood oxygenation.

if you only had a full body xray as reference, the shape of the skeleton would say the opposite of what he believes.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@gaicuckojin

they should honestly just have a separate category for these people to compete.

In effect, you imply that biologically speaking, this individual is not a woman.

not according to his chromosomes, bone density, mitochondrial uptake, muscle blood oxygenation.

if you only had a full body xray as reference, the shape of the skeleton would say the opposite of what he believes.

You and I agree that a separate category is probably the right answer. I understand about the chromosomes and mitochondrial uptake. I do not know enough about the differences in oxygenation or bone density to comment.

It would seem these things would have been considered before making this decision by the IOC and New Zealand and they are reasonable questions to ask. How were these questions dispositioned? I do not know if these items were even addressed (similarly as said above I do not know how the other women feel).

if she chooses to identify as a woman that is her choise and I will respect that. However she certainly must understand that she is entering hot waters by participating and as people are pointing out there are certain biological differences which would call into question any medal she wins.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

This transgender business will never be resolved until they have their own games just as the para-olympians do, and so divided into two categories, men who were once women, and women who were once men. Unfair on them? Depends on your point of view. Faiir on the rest? Definitely!

6 ( +7 / -1 )

This transgender business will never be resolved until they have their own games …

Sorry, but I think you have missed the whole point behind transgenderism. I think their contention - and it is still contentious for some people - is that transwomen ARE women therefore creating separate Games would be discriminatory.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

If this person wins, there will always be an asterisk attached to the win, as she is competing against those who didn't grow up with a male body, male musculature and skeletal structure and went through male puberty.

What's the point of separating women from men sport, if we're going to let women who grew up as men perform against the women who didn't get the advantage of growing up male? That's the whole reason we separate sport by sex, because we've agreed that there's not fair competition between the two sexes (for most sports). So how does it make sense to then let those who grew up with the same advantages that have us separating sport by gender in the first place, compete against those without those advantages.

Any argument to let trans women compete against female-born women has decided that this difference in ability to compete between male and female doesn't matter anymore. So maybe they should be accommodated, and we should scrap gender separation in sport altogether. No mens/womens, just the sports. Everyone competes, the winner wins.

It would solve this problem of "discrimination" against trans people by allowing them to compete against women. It would be a true meritocracy, where the only thing that matters is your skill, not what's between your legs, at birth or currently.

That's fair right?

3 ( +6 / -3 )

This again?

Did anyone ask the competition what they think?

4 ( +5 / -1 )

In effect, you imply that biologically speaking, this individual is not a woman.

I, for one, am not implying anything: that’s a man. The bone structure is different and testosterone level would disqualify natural women from the competition. If this person wishes to live as a woman, fair enough. I will use whatever pronoun this person chooses but this person is not a woman and it is unfair to allow this to compete against women and no amount of being woke will change this.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Meanwhile Caster Semenya who was born female is banned from taking part because her natural

testosterone level is higher than the normal woman, this coming after she took part in previous olympics and dominated, It is just so discriminatory they don't even bother any longer to conceal their racism.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

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