Toyota puts liquid hydrogen-powered car into 24-hour race

They just won't give up for hydrogen technology

https://theconversation.com/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-electric-vehicles-because-theyre-hampered-by-the-laws-of-science-139899

The race at Fuji Speedway in Shizuoka Prefecture will be held through Sunday.

It's only race in Japan no worldwide, what is the class of this vehicle? Hydrogen only car, so who is racing who is the winner?

the plan stalled after a vehicle caught fire during a test run.

Mmm, no thank you!

Such hydrogen is still one of energies. Trucks, any big vehicles seem good for hydrogen power. Major countries, companies are developing hydrogen technology for the future.

""Offering a wide range of green vehicles, including hybrid cars, is more effective in cutting their carbon footprint than just focusing on electric vehicles.""

WRONG, EV is the only path forward if we are serious about saving our world. Toyota is lagging behind in the EV race and trying to justify it. Soon China will overtake the EV market and Toyota and others automakers will be left in the dust unless they evolve and accept reality.

It's only race in Japan no worldwide, what is the class of this vehicle? Hydrogen only car, so who is racing who is the winner?

Which part of this do you not understand? -

By subjecting the liquid hydrogen car to endurance races, Toyota intends to improve the nascent technology's functionality and address some of its challenges, including how to keep liquid hydrogen at an extremely low temperature.

China has already surpassed Japan in autoexports as of 05/2023.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/China-surpasses-Japan-as-world-s-top-auto-exporter

The only people that think EV is the solution are people that live in the western highly developed countries.

As it is now if just every car not truck etc... Just passeger cars converted to EV in Japan or the USA, etc...the power grip would collapse, simple!

And unless someone here gas a way of creating 4 to 6 times more electrical power in example California within the next 10 year it is going to be interesting to watch the power rationing.

I think most screaming about EV is the future have never left the comfort of the clean western countries

China is the country with the most EV vehicles. It accounts for 60% of global sales. One-in-four cars sold is EV.

They just won't give up for hydrogen technology

and no one else is either.

German cabinet approves legal framework for hydrogen core network

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/german-cabinet-approves-legal-framework-hydrogen-core-network-2023-05-24/

Maybe now that the Tesla Model Y became the best selling car of the world, beating out the Toyota Dinasour at half price, maybe Toyota will wake up

Yeah, because of tax incentives and price cuts. Toyota dominates the rest of the top 10.  And Telsa had to come down in price.

China has already surpassed Japan in autoexports as of 05/2023.

And in those exports were Toyotas and other Japanese brand cars.

I wonder how an Electric car would do.

Liquified Hydrogen or any other liquid or compressible gas will eventually dominate.

EV will have its place but the simple fact of power distribution and recharge problems will limit it to developed zones.

Just looking at Poland, to comply with EU regulations Poland somehow needs to convert most homes from coal to electric, at this time the power plants, infrastructure, grid is not there and will take decades to build and this in in Europe, add in all cars EV as another EU regulations and it is near impossible for Poland to comply by the deadline.

Now move to Africa and South America.

Desert countries have vast expanses with zero power lines and no refueling stations, the same goes for mountain regions, Savanah regions jungles etc.. villages with only the most basic electric needs.

We can even add in large parts of Canada, Russia and the USA.

So what do they do today?

Well simple most travelling in these places carry spare fuel tanks/containers.

In Tanzania it is a common sight to see truck with multiple drums of diesel strapped to the back or roof.

This is repeated around the developing world unless you plan on creating a miracle and electrifying the roads through the Namibian desert, the Sahara desert, Gobi desert the Amazon forest, etc..(not to mention where will this electricity come from!)

Hydrogen possibly alcohol in liquid form that can be stored in portable containers as spare fuel, will be the choice from much of the world.

I know the replies solar/wind.

Where and how? Who is going to live in the middle of the desert to maintain the solar station? Solar in the jungles, northern Canada and Russia no sun for months really!

Wind again same problem who will live in these isolated areas to run the station? And again wind in the Amazon jungle Northern Canada and Russia where even car engines freeze if not kept running at night or the engine heated to start.

Wind turbines in these areas freeze ice buildup etc..

The problem with this debate is as usual the left all or nothing attitude.

The future will be a mix if intelligence prevails.

In highly urban areas EV will be the more practical for local travel and work.

But outside urban areas other more portable and practical systems like hydrogen will be what is used.

FrenchFox

Today 11:43 am JST

I wonder how an Electric car would do

Simple answer is it would fail.

3 drivers rotate, and refueling are the only stops (not sure if they change tires)

The race distance over the 24 hours is over 5,200 km

So the Tesla S can Go 1200 km fully charged, at rapid charge the car would need a minimum of 60 minutes either in multiple small stops or 1 or 2 long stops.

So the care would be fully out of the race one hour of the 24 hours race.

AS, all true, but during a race an EV could come into the pits and swap out the batteries.

Hydrogen is meantime here to stay and growing exponentially. If they can make green hydrogen in large quantities for ships and trucks and plant machinery, cars should be an easy spin-off.

Japan and Germany will be the only countries betting on the inefficient hydrogen vehicles - a bet they will loose.

Hydrogen is meantime here to stay and growing exponentially. 

still dreaming ? Just look at the sales numbers of battery vehicles vs hydrogen.

nandakandamanda

Today 01:48 pm JST

AS, all true, but during a race an EV could come into the pits and swap out the batteries

Only if it is not a stock car!

It would have to be a specially designed car in order to do that.

As far as I have found all cars must be "stock-car-based touring cars, including cars that meet the GT3 regulations.".

This would rule out all specially modified cars,

Now a pilot project was launched to swap batteries

More time is needed to remove the titanium and hardened aluminum ballistic plates that now shield the battery pack, so the swap process takes approximately three minutes.

This is a little deceiving the swap takes 3 minutes, not the removal and replacement of the rest, it also necessitates quite a bit of specialized equipment.

The project was terminated largely because it failed.

Why? Because it was far too complicated.

I personally think the battery swap should be the real future of EV.

If the governments would agree on a universal single battery pack for all vehicles an automated system of swap by robot would be possible.

Small packs each car having as many packs are the model can hold or need (modular system) pull in the system removes evaluates instantly the battery health are repla only what is needed charges the amount replaced minus remaining charge and charge capacity remaining..

But at this time no such car or system exists so no electry car could successfully compete in this race.

Looking at other endurance races, Audi RS Q e-tron was used in Paris Dakar but despite the hype this was not an EV but a hybrid ICE generator powered car with electric motors.

When an electric car can do Paris Dakar and place in a reasonable standing without any more support that iCE cars then perhaps EV will be fully practical, until then EV are good city cars nothing more!

Tokyo Banana

Today 03:05 pm JST

Japan and Germany will be the only countries betting on the inefficient hydrogen vehicles - a bet they will loose

You sure?

Now you live in Africa!

You have the choice and EV car or a hydrogen car.

Your Town has already very limited electric grid, the next major city is across a large most savannah or desert region no power lines.

Or you live is northern Canada or Russian, it is -40°C and 500km between towns again no power lines.

So you can get an EV and hope you make it to a place with enough electricity or you can carry and store spare fuel tanks.

Which are you going to go with.

Having lived in the far north of Canada, having driven distances with no gas stations or electric grid connected along the way, I drove with spare fuel tanks.

I will choose options 2 the hydrogen car once distribution networks are available.

Now installing a distribution network is far simpler than running million even trillions of power lines through northern Canada and Russia, through the Sarah desert, the Amazon, the African savannah, etc...

OK Europe and major cities EV great, but you forget the rest.

Quick battery swapping would be practical, but would you want to install a major component of your car that regularly and not know the condition of said part or whether it's damaged, defective, etc. I wouldn't. Plus, to make it as convenient as gasoline/diesel, you'd have to have unmanned/automated stations where a large number of these batteries are stocked on premise. Not at all practical.

Now you live in Africa!

You have the choice and EV car or a hydrogen car.

are you saying Africa does not have a sun and roofs to put on solar panels ?

Just Google Solar E-Cycles.

Or you live is northern Canada or Russian, it is -40°C and 500km between towns again no power lines.

How many millions cars does Toyota sell in there ? You can come up with edge cases but they won’t matter in the mass market. On top of that Norway has 80% ev adoption rate to further ridicule your argument !

EVs are very doable for city transport.

Morocco is building huge solar farms and wind turbines to be a net exporter of electricity to Spain.

You can't drive a fossil fuel car across the Saraha without taking extra fuel with you.

EVs are not the answer everywhere.

Norway, very cold in the winter has the most EVs per sq km than any other country.

are you saying Africa does not have a sun and roofs to put on solar panels ?

Ah the roof solar panel thing again!

Look up Elon Musk's reply to that.

Even if you covered you car with every cm of solar panels you would get about 10 minutes of power from a full day of sun.

This was directly from Elon Musk.

It would take 8 hour of full sun on 40 large solar panels to charge the smallest Nissan leaf.

And comparing an E-cycle to a car, are you seriou?

Norway, very cold in the winter has the most EVs per sq km than any other country.

Nope not very cold

Norway is the coldest Nordic country at a yearly average of 1.5°C, while Denmark is the hottest, at 2.7°C. That's a difference of 1.2°C. Canada is at -5.35°C, for reference.

In winter, the average temperature in Norway is -6.8 degrees Celsius, but the local conditions may vary quite a lot. Around Oslo, snowfall is common and the average winter temperatures are just below zero.

Canada linger between -5 and -15 degrees Celsius. It rarely gets below -20 or -30 degrees Celsius,

Toronto winter -7~-10°C, Montreal -10~-15°C these are South Edmonton -15~-20°C Winnipeg -15 ~-20°C Yellowknife -25 and lower.

Batteries work best between 40 to 80 degrees F (5-30 degrees C), according to Natarajan. “Anything below 40-degrees F over a prolonged time would mean reduced performance,”

40F =4°C Canada is way below that for a long time.

Norway is too cold for diesel in the winter.

What is the coldest it gets in Norway?

-51.4°C

The absolute lowest and highest temperatures measured at official weather stations on the mainland are -51.4°C and +35.6°C, respectively.

https://climateknowledgeportal.worldbank.org/country/norway/climate-data-historical

I would call -51.4°C, very cold. In fact, you can die in those temperatures.

EVs will not be for everywhere but there are many countries and cities where they can become a valuable means of transport.

"Africa" is a huge continent of 54 countries. Solar power and wind turbines are already helping to generate power. Africa has a very long coastline. 30,500 kilometers lengthwise.

A record 86,032 electric vehicles were registered in Canada in 2021, making up 5.3% of total vehicle registrations for that year.

https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/market-snapshots/2022/market-snapshot-record-high-electric-vehicle-sales-canada.html

For 2022 as a whole, meanwhile, one in every 11 vehicles registered — 8.9 percent — was a ZEV. “Not only has the market share of ZEVs increased, but the overall volume of ZEVs has also seen substantial growth. Year over year, the total volume of ZEVs in Canada has increased by 38.8%,” reads the report.

https://electricautonomy.ca/2023/02/13/canada-zev-sales-q4-2022/

Last year, Norway had the highest number of EV sales per capita, with 20 cars purchased for every 1,000 people, accounting for 65% of all car sales7.Mar 30, 2023

And comparing an E-cycle to a car, are you seriou?

you are the one who is advocating a hydrogen car for Africa. So your are the Joker. Once a significant fraction of population there can afford a car you can be sure than sufficient electric infrastructure will be there; in the meantime you will have e-cycles or e-scooters (latter transition is happening in China and Indonesia).

You can promote Hydrogens all you want; once subsidies run dry Japan will realize with a bitter hangover that they are 10 years behind the Chinese.

Liquid hydrogen pipe dream for consumer & commercial transportation. Maybe shipping or aviation? EVs involve no new infrastructure, battery improvement exponential, etc.

Soon, EV batteries will not only be far cheaper but far superior in every respect, from range, charging time, safety, materials being environmental and low cost etc.

Batteries in near future will offer thousands of kilometers on single charge while solar panels continuously charge with EV vehicle costs far lower than they are today.

wallaceToday  05:22 pm JST

Norway is too cold for diesel in the winter.

Nonsense. Two of many examples available to contradict your claim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V42b83zt0s

https://www.vegvesen.no/en/vehicles/professional-transport/truckers-guide/

Harry_Gatto

   wallaceToday 05:22 pm JST

>    Norway is too cold for diesel in the winter.

> Nonsense. Two of many examples available to contradict your claim.

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V42b83zt0s

> https://www.vegvesen.no/en/vehicles/professional-transport/truckers-guide/

In the UK in the coldest winters, we had to make a fire under the diesel engine of the truck to get it started.

In Norway, 'winter diesel' contains more paraffin and is usable in quite low temperatures.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vJjKwSF9gT8

For anybody interested a above is a nice video showing how ridiculous hydrogen combustion is for cars - using numbers and real world examples

People without knowledge saying stuff they know nothing about.

In cold countries cars are often equipped with block heaters.

These are common and in many cases standard equipment to heat the engine to make starting it in winter easier.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_heater

Block heaters are frequently used in regions with cold winters such as the northern United States, Canada, Russia and Scandinavia. In some countries where block heaters are commonly used, carparks are sometimes fitted with electrical outlets for powering the block heaters.

Some people think they know everything even when they haven't lived in the environment they are talking about.

AS

Some people think they know everything even when they haven't lived in the environment they are talking about

there are users up there putting those cars to test and documenting it.

from https://www.carscoops.com/2023/02/tesla-model-s-sets-cold-weather-distance-record-in-norwegian-test/amp/ :

„The Model S's range dropped just 16% in cold-weather testing, as compared to the Toyota bZ4X, whose range dropped by 35%“

Yeah, I would stay away from Toyota.

Tokyo Banana

Today 06:44 pm JST

Interesting you pick a sedan vs an SUV!

SUV are notoriously inefficient.

But I guess that was the goal compare something that was sure to loose funny how that works.

Tokyo Banana

Today 06:15 pm JST

> For anybody interested a above is a nice video showing how ridiculous hydrogen combustion is for cars - using numbers and real world examples

Anyone interested in the facts and reality of EV

https://youtu.be/z2HneqfZGsM

https://youtu.be/ptI6BRVC1Kw