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Japan wants TSMC, Sony to build 20 nanometer chip plant: report

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20 nanometers? We're approaching 1 nanometer now. Also why would TSMC want to invest in Japan where innovation and technology is crap?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@Tom Doley the investment is mostly for automotive chips.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Awesome. Keep production out of China, and Japan is the perfect place to do it if you want it done perfectly.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@Tom Doley

Japan still dominates cutting edge chip technology. Even when applied in cheap economies or to cheap chips/displays/etc - much of the design/build costs & capital expense globally still goes to Japanese companies. And the Japanese invest atrocious amounts of money back into R&D. This is something they do very well.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@A Johnson

Can you tell me which of TSMC, Intel and Samsung are Japanese companies? Tell me a single Japanese company producing 5nm chips... Socionext is planning on trying, maybe. Asides from the TSMC 7nm/5nm and beyond design center in Yokohama there's nothing.

NXP probably even makes more advanced stuff than Toshiba or Panasonic. That's not even considering Hynix, micron, Qualcomm, Broadcom, another half dozen companies that are on the same level or above anything in Japan.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@Hillclimber

Yeah, nah still not even close. Maybe, "Japan dominates photoresists production in the world and produces the majority of materials used in chip production". I'd give you that

Photomasks, substrate, wafer tech and die tech, none of that is "dominated by Japan". 2016 is a life time ago.

Ah, ok let me give you a hint the T in TSMC stands for Taiwan.

Not annoyed, just a party pooper. I'm not good at sitting on my hands when someone brags about how good they are, when there demonstrably aren't. Like the child in the kings clothes; when I see a naked idiot, I call him a naked idiot.

About materials asides from the photoresists, that's once again wrong.

Other places did surpass Japan and have left then behind. The advancement in this field doesn't stop. Exactly, your analogy is perfect. Japan knows the great old recipes, still cooks the old recipes. Grows the Ingredients and gives them to the exciting new talent to make new recipes.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@Tom Doley

why would TSMC want to invest in Japan where innovation and technology is crap?

Japanese embedded chipmakers want to outsource their chip fabrication to TSMC.

Embedded chips don't require cutting edge process.

@A Johnson

Japan still dominates cutting edge chip technology. 

Japan does not.

@Hillclimber

The fact is Samsung and whoever else you mentioned all use Japanese made materials to make their chips

Samsung does not, Samsung has been Japan-free since the beginning of this year and this is why Abe's material retaliations against Korea no longer works.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Wait another 20 years and the few remaining fragments of Japan's semiconductor industry will be sold off to foreign buyers, as is the case with Toshiba right now. That is the fate that awaits Japanese companies run by dinosaurs. Perhaps Japanese should learn English and migrate to Canada, Australia or the US. There is no hope for them in Japan.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Samsung does not, Samsung has been Japan-free since the beginning of this year and this is why Abe's material retaliations against Korea no longer works.

Can you clarify this better? I wish an essay if you can write one.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Samsung does not, Samsung has been Japan-free since the beginning of this year and this is why Abe's material retaliations against Korea no longer works

I can disprove this claim in 16 different ways.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

@Kiwikid

Well, 3 of Japanese companies ie canon, screen and tokyo electron are collaborating with TSMC to set up a 2nm plant in Japan by the middle of this decade. Canon's advanced nano-imprint lithography has the ability to compete against ASML's advanced EUV lithography and insiders say it can be a lot more better( kioxia is already rumored to be building an advanced fab using this technology). Japan is close second to united states in advanced semiconductor patents. Japan has the technology but has trouble finding investors.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@Septim Dynasty

Can you clarify this better? I wish an essay if you can write one.

At the beginning of Abe's materials retaliation, Samsung summoned major Japanese suppliers and told them that they must move their supply chain out of Japan by the end of 2020 or Samsung would cut them off. In other word, build factories in Korea or supply them from Taiwan/China.

Given that the material Japanese produced were useless for Japanese use(Japan does not have advanced semiconductor processes necessitating them), Japanese suppliers complied, by opening factories in Korea or supplying Samsung from Taiwan/China.

At the same time, Korean suppliers were given large orders to build the economy of scale, Samsung and SK Hynix previously operated in their comfort zone, preferring to work with whom they were familiar with, but Abe's retaliations forced Samsung and SK Hynix to take risks on local suppliers and that risk paid off. This was a painful transition, but it worked.

This is the reason why Abe's materials retaliation is no longer in the news even though it is still in effect, Koreans can now do business without materials supplied from Japan.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@Samit Basu

Naahh, recent semiconductor resilience survey conducted by the south korean govt has stated that South Korea still depends for crucial materials(as much as 97%) on Japan. Japan has about 30 years of lead in that area.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@ Samit Basu

TSMC is extending it's Lead over samsung every second as we speak. Even in the dram market, even though samsung has a higher market share, the US rival Micron's(Industry leader) profitability growth is going to be extremely difficult for samsung to tackle and South Korea's gonna get it's taste of Japanification very soon(a lot faster than china).

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Japan still dominates cutting edge chip technology. 

I work in the industry, so I can say with absolute confidence that this is an absolutely clueless statement.

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@Sindhoor GK

You say that as if Samsung is doomed because TSMC has a current lead in 5nm and 3nm segment. Samsung and TSMC are still the top dogs, and really the only ones remaining, in the technically complex semiconductor manufacturing industry. I see no danger of Samsung following the same fate as Japanese chip makers, just because of TSMC's current edge. Even though TSMC has better transistor density in their 5nm chips, customers really care about yield and competitive prices for chips, which Samsung offers. And as long as Samsung keeps pumping money into their chip division to boost capacity, they will be fine. To be more competitive Samsung ought to spin off their chip making division and collaborate with SK Hynix.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@Shidhoor

Japan has the technology but has trouble finding investors.

If the technology is so cutting edge, the US, Korea, Taiwan and even the jgov will flock to it. But they don’t do they? You rely too much on far right fake news. A little common sense would help.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@Tom Doley

J gov tried thrice. But the investment into chip manufacturing isn't small. The second time they aimed to try, the global financial crisis hit us like a truck, the third time they tried, 2011 happened. Jgov is giving money to Japanese universities to develop the technology and the universities are so far doing a great job. But commercialization of that technology isn't an easy feat. It needs billions of investment. There is absolutely no way any advanced semiconductor manufacturer can manufacture chips without Tokyo electron, lasertec, nuflare,screen. Jgov is helping to set up 2nm production line by investing $470 million( a far cry from billions being invested in other countries) and TSMC isn't named publicly(the gov said 3 japanese companies and 1 foreign company but given that it's 2nm process, it's a blind guess that it's TSMC).

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

And as long as Samsung keeps pumping money into their chip division to boost capacity, they will be fine. To be more competitive Samsung ought to spin off their chip making division and collaborate with SK Hynix.

Semiconductor industry's history tells us that this isn't going to be sustainable for long.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@ Shidhoor

We are in 2021, not 2011. Technology has advanced since then. By your own admission, semiconductor history has told us that Japan’s lead is bygone memories. Japan is at the lower end of the supply chain, completely replaceable by other companies around the world.

If you want to defend the far right outdated stories, blame Abe for wasting 400 million dollars on abenomasks.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@Tom Doley

https://asiatimes.com/2021/04/as-chip-tech-moves-ahead-is-china-falling-behind/

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tech/Semiconductors/Canon-and-Tokyo-Electron-to-join-Japan-advanced-chipmaking-project

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Japan is at the lower end of the supply chain, completely replaceable by other companies around the world.

okay...lol.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@ Shidhoor

Trying to grasp the last straws I see. Did you comprehend the article you just linked? Obviously not.

Regain lost ground?

Seeks to establish next generation?

Nothing about Japan having leading technology. It’s all about trying to develop and catch up by around 2025.

Japanese companies still rank high in global market share as suppliers of chipmaking equipment and materials.

Ranking high in market share as suppliers does not mean they are the only suppliers. I would further bet that Japan’s leading market share will decrease from now on since the pathetic export controls forced the Korean companies to source Japanese supplies elsewhere.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@Tom doley

read the first article i linked?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Ranking high in market share as suppliers does not mean they are the only suppliers

if that's what you think, i'm sorry you have no idea how the semiconductor industry works.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

 pathetic export controls forced the Korean companies to source Japanese supplies elsewhere.

Samsung and SK are scrambling to set up investment offices in Japan to secure their supplies. The main aim of the export restrictions is just to give South Korea's competitors like TSMC, Micron build up a lead on longterm scale, it's already working. Micron is now scaling up it's production facilities in Japan, TSMC(apologized for not setting up a 5nm plant in Japan due to extreme pressure from US government) is setting up research facilities in Japan and is working very closely with Japanese companies(for the upcoming 2nm plant).

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@Samit Basu

At the beginning of Abe's materials retaliation, Samsung summoned major Japanese suppliers and told them that they must move their supply chain out of Japan by the end of 2020 or Samsung would cut them off. In other word, build factories in Korea or supply them from Taiwan/China.

Given that the material Japanese produced were useless for Japanese use(Japan does not have advanced semiconductor processes necessitating them), Japanese suppliers complied, by opening factories in Korea or supplying Samsung from Taiwan/China.

At the same time, Korean suppliers were given large orders to build the economy of scale, Samsung and SK Hynix previously operated in their comfort zone, preferring to work with whom they were familiar with, but Abe's retaliations forced Samsung and SK Hynix to take risks on local suppliers and that risk paid off. This was a painful transition, but it worked.

This is the reason why Abe's materials retaliation is no longer in the news even though it is still in effect, Koreans can now do business without materials supplied from Japan.

This is excellent. Can you put some sources here as well?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Yep, whatever, this coming from someone dwelling in 2011. Your far right government reminisced about its former glory for far too long and thought it’s supplies were indispensable. How wrong were they.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@septim dynasty

It is true that Japanese companies are scaling up production in south korea and taiwan but the important ones aren't doing it.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@Tom Doley

Okay...whatever.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@Sindhoor GK

The main aim of the export restrictions is just to give South Korea's competitors like TSMC, Micron build up a lead on longterm scale

Abe san had no such grand vision like you claim. Abe san was ill-advised by Japan's rightwing MITI bureaucrats that Japanese materials were irreplicable and Korea would surrender in 2 months if Japan banned their export. To the dismay of Abe san and MITI bureaucrats, Korea was shockingly immune and was able to switch suppliers in 2 months.

it's already working.

No it's not.

working very closely with Japanese companies(for the upcoming 2nm plant).

It's a 20nm fab, not 2nm. The title of this very article says 20nm.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@Samit basu

i aren't talking about this one lol. this is just for automotive chips.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@Samit Basu

METI has been in talks with TSMC and others since 2013.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Semiconductor industry's history tells us that this isn't going to be sustainable for long.

How so? The history you are talking about is when the there were many players in the chip making industry. But now it is being massively consolidated with chip designers like Intel outsourcing manufacturing to Samsung. Both TSMC and Samsung are trying to up production capacity to meet the increasing demand for chips. And this has worked for Samsung. Their foundry market share has jumped to 19% in 2020 from 3% in 2016 leaving traditional foundries like UMC and Global Foundries in the dust.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

What do you need all such sophisticated chips in cars for? Cars could drive for decades without even one chip, and that was fun driving them. Nowadays you can’t even repair them yourself, waiting in congestions and before thousands of forbidding signs is normal and soon they will forbid the usual motors and replace it with a battery and some little mechanical parts like in toy cars. Maybe the final product will soon be only a very big chip with four wheels attached, but prohibited moving. lol

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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