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Microsoft, Apple tablets have most profit margins

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Not only is it profitable, it's possibly the best device ever made by any tablet manufacturer. Hell, it's being used as a voting machine! http://www.zdnet.com/voters-test-microsofts-surface-as-ballot-machine-in-us-city-7000006965/

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

it's possibly...

The worst is that his groundless analysis on Apple, Windows, Samsung are based not on facts but on his guessings.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

The Surface should be good for bipolar's who can't decide if they are a laptop or tablet. Everything about the Surface is about using in landscape mode. Even the stand only works in landscape mode. Its not about holding it in your hand, hence a tablet. Everything about the Surface is a laptop replacement. Since Microsoft won't even release sales figures until the end of next January who even knows how many were made, how many sold?

If they don't win in some big way come next year the stockholders could be calling for a new company CEO.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

The Microsoft new tablets will need more than "charms" to make an significant dent in the numbers of tablets being used when there are already so many iPads and Android devices.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

And Obama uses an iPad!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Readers, please keep the discussion civil. If you are not willing to be tolerant of opoposing views, then please do not post here.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I have never spammed nor ever plan to use spam in any post. Suggestions to that I do are contrary to civil discussions.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

No surprises here, lots of people don't think Amazon or even Google when it comes to tablets, not that competition isn't a good thing for us.

basroil use some common sense and don't trash talk others. You're spamming the same comments in response to other people's valid observations. Your last comment ironically sums you up. I take it you've never tried debating people in real life with that approach. Try it.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

bdiego, your false assumptions are quite irrelevant to the discussion.

Now that that's settled:

bdiegoNov. 07, 2012 - 03:08PM JST

No surprises here, lots of people don't think Amazon or even Google when it comes to tablets, not that competition isn't a good thing for us.

However, people do think Google for search, and Amazon for e-books, and that is very profitable for them. They are banking on long term customers to build up their company value to a service, rather than tie their company image to singular devices. It's the same thing that a lot of very successful companies do, like the eternal giants IBM and Cisco. Even if new technologies are made for consumption, they will always be there providing the back end that makes it work.

And android tablets are quite talked about actually, especially now that apple keeps shooting itself in the foot with the UK decision.

Also an interesting thing is the kindle itself is more or less an AWS advertisement, since everything that runs through amazon's cloud system is faster (thanks to back end code on AWS that improves kindle browsing performance)

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

MS Surface, for people who want to be productive. iPad, for people who want a big iPod Touch. Everyone says Apple's so innovated, all they've been doing is releasing the same product in different sizes and with cellphone capabilities.

I expect a year or two, Windows 8 will have a large presence in tablet market. If not be the top marketshare holder. When your latest computer comes with Windows 8, they'll feel right at home when they decide to get a tablet running it also.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

US Companies are operating by Margin..... not by mark-up. So it is normal to have high margins for US companies like Apple and Microsoft.

Usually when the tablets went out of China factory, the principal price is about US$100.

Japanese and Taiwan/Chinese companies usually mark-up of 50% to sell it out to distributors and telco carriers.... it will become US$150.

Most US companies have mandatory rules to have a Profit Margin of 65%. Profit Margin, in economics, is not the same as MARK-UP (used by Japanese and Taiwan/Chinese companies) so it does not mean 100 US Dollars times 1.65 equals US$ 165 Transfer Price to Distributors/Telcos.

--

Margin means the Principal of US$100 divided by (100% minus 65%) = 100/0.35 = US$285 transfer Price.

This is why CEO, Pres and Vice pres of US companies got a lot of bonus and perks

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Koriacan,

When your latest computer comes with Windows 8, they'll feel right at home when they decide to get a tablet running it also.

Except that the OS used on the Surface, RT, does not run Windows desktop applications. In fact, this is one of the biggest problems with it.

Compared to iPad and Android, there are very few apps that will run on the Surface.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@BertieWooster

The problem with any Arm based processor is that it won't run any desktop based software. They simply don't have the power to, nor are the programs even built to function on x86 hardware. The main selling point is the fact that going from your desktop to your RT based tablet, there is no GUI difference. 3rd party apps will be stuck in the Metro UI, but launching many MS apps will drop you into desktop mode. I don't have an RT based tablet, so I can't verify if any of the RT apps will work on a Windows 8 system.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Korican

I can't verify if any of the RT apps will work on a Windows 8 system.

Very few apparently:

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2012/10/19/microsofts-surface-is-apples-ping/#more-4739

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Korlacan KhanthavilayNov. 07, 2012 - 07:59PM JST

The problem with any Arm based processor is that it won't run any desktop based software. They simply don't have the power to, nor are the programs even built to function on x86 hardware.

The first part is correct, but not the second. The APIs needed for almost everything are there just fine to run desktop software. The issue is simply the fact that ARM just speaks an entirely different language than x86 (desktop software). You can go the other way, from ARM's reduced instruction set to x86 without too many problems (like apple's rosetta or the x86 android builds), but going the other way is like asking scientists to publish papers with a 1st grade vocabulary. Sure it's possible (like the 8bit linux), but not going to be pretty (like the 30 minutes needed to print "hello world" on 8bit linux).

I don't have an RT based tablet, so I can't verify if any of the RT apps will work on a Windows 8 system.

From the developer's guide, you can see that RT to 8 is pretty easy, just a few tweaks and recompile for x86/x64. 8 to RT is slightly different because there are some APIs you can use on 8 but not RT. And of course local debugging is a pain, since you'll need to debug through the RT app

BertieWoosterNov. 07, 2012 - 07:10PM JST

Compared to iPad and Android, there are very few apps that will run on the Surface.

You'de be surprised actually. Especially when removing dual versions ("trial" and "full" versions of the same app), flashlight apps (1900 in apple store), fart apps (can you believe 1200 of those too?), and apps literally NO ONE DOWNLOADED (about 400000 in apple app store that have never been download.... even once... http://www.ijailbreak.com/applications/over-400000-apps-in-apple-app-store-have-zero-downloads/ kind of puts their entire marketing ploy into perspective).

Windows 8 currently has north of 5000 apps, and at least the 500 or so I have looked up are both reputable and useful. Not so much if you're always in desktop mode, but useful enough in a tablet when you would rather click on the news app rather than sit and type each of the major places (built in news app has ap, reuters, NYT, and a few others, and updates frequently enough. all it needs now is major event notificaiton, like if a president gets shot or another earthquake happens). It's more about app quality than quantity, especially when 99.99% of the downloads are the same few hundred apps.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Well anyway, Surface reviews have generally been mediocre. Good hardware, crap software. Windows RT is a confusing mess. There are only like 16 tablet apps.

costs about $267 in parts and labor when excluding its optional keyboard cover. It went on sale Oct 26 priced at $499, for a profit margin of around 46%.

Surface is a super rip off.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Exactly what was the point of that link? It doesn't tell me anything about RT apps working on a Windows 8 system. Just some fanboy complaining about a product they probably don't own. That or the fact that what they are complaining about is exactly how other Arm based tablets are.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

LostinNagoyaNov. 07, 2012 - 11:57AM JST

it's possibly... The worst is that his groundless analysis on Apple, Windows, Samsung are based not on facts but on his guessings.

Mods, while you're at it, can you please remove lostinnagoya's post for blatant insult?

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Korlacan KhanthavilayNov. 07, 2012 - 08:30PM JST

Exactly what was the point of that link? It doesn't tell me anything about RT apps working on a Windows 8 system.

Try this instead:

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=30703

Short answer is yes, longer answer is: Yes, but you have to recompile and re-debug (though generally all issues should be solved in RT tablet, assuming you use C++, otherwise, yes, absolutely no issues/problems expected, especially HTML5 based apps.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Guessing as long as the app isn't full customized for a specific processor, it'll work on both. Although, reading other articles, MS doesn't give 3rd parties full access to Win 8 RT anyways.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I"m sure glad when I turn my iPad or macs on they just work the way I want and need. Thw Windows Surface needs to be loaded with other languages before being able to change them, at least some of them. If they ever sell the Surface here will probably have Japanese with Japanese keyboard but to change to say Chinese will require the additional packs.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/language#1TC=t1

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Korlacan KhanthavilayNov. 07, 2012 - 09:03PM JST

Although, reading other articles, MS doesn't give 3rd parties full access to Win 8 RT anyways

It's mainly just the things needed to build a fast web browser that are locked off. They will probably unlock it at some later point in time, without ridiculous restrictions like apple's "here's our old version of webkit, that's the only thing you can use suckers".

System wide video codecs are also off-limits (you can't make ffdshow for RT), but that's 100% for battery life and security reasons. Third party codecs wouldn't have hardware support, so that drains the battery, and could possibly lock up the system if they put an app and all it's memory to "sleep", certainly crash any apps using it. As long as you use the WinRT libraries (as opposed to the full Windows SDK) and your own code it shouldn't be a big issue.

Certainly a lot easier to debug most parts because you can do most on Windows 8 rather than RT. Luckily, regardless of the success of RT in general, the Surface is profitable off the bat, so microsoft probably doesn't care what happens after the initial run is entirely sold out everywhere.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Businesses everywhere will love Windows because needs no language packs! Windows 8 and RT use language settings, which download in a minute, there's no need to restart, and no need to even download if all you use is the keyboard!. Only reason there's a download is because you get absolutely everything translated, from menus, popups, and the non-existent error messages, to apps, help pages, and more.

Not only do the devices have good margins, the purchases will too.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

you can't just plug in a Japanese or Chinese keyboard into a computer with an English version of Windows and hope it will work, it won't.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I'm fine with Windows RT not coming with system wide codecs or ability to have them. Those combo pack codecs tend to have 1-2 broken codecs in them anyways. ffdshow is good nowadays, but I remember when a few codecs in them were broken and your video simply came in green, depending on what codec it was using. K-Lite was the same way. I ended up having like 7 different codec or whatever to play certain video file types or file types encoded in certain codecs. Like I had ffdshow, ogm, mkv, vobsub, etc.

Also you can just plug in a Japanese or Chinese keyboard and it'll work. Work correctly, different story. It'll just default to standard English layout on an English version of Windows. Not a big deal, since having every single language out there loaded by default would bloat Windows. I have Win 7 Ultimate on a desktop and it gives me the option to download like 60 different language packs or something ridiculous, all weighing in at around 200-500 megs a piece. There's simply no need.

There's also no need to install the language packs anyways, unless you want your whole version of Windows to read in whatever language you choose. If you want to use Japanese, Chinese, etc. Simply set the unicode to the language you want (done in regional settings). Everything will be in English, with the option to use IME to type in whatever language it is that you want to use. Requires a restart, but no downloading needed.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

It seems Acer is not the only OEM who is stepping back from Windows RT products after the announcement of the Surface RT tablet. http://microsoft-news.com/digitimes-other-notebook-oems-also-stepping-back-from-windows-rt-tablets/

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I have Windows 8 english and japanese keyboard and it works out of the box!

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Don't think any power users care what happens with Windows RT.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

For those who can't do without it, Microsoft is to offer Office for iPad for free next year:

http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/11/07/free-microsoft-office-app-for-iphone-ipad-to-be-released-in-early-2013

1 ( +1 / -0 )

For those who can't do without it, Microsoft is to offer Office for iPad for free next year:

Word/PowerPoint/Excel are already available with the free app CloudOn, read/edit.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Don't think any power users care what happens with Windows RT.

Microsoft certainly does. If these new tablets are not a success the company will be looking for a new CEO come next year. There's a strong backlash from Microsoft's oEM partners over the release of the Surface tablet. Some of the major partners have decided to delay the release of their own tablets until after the tablet pro is released next year.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

have Win 7 Ultimate on a desktop and it gives me the option to download like 60 different language packs or something ridiculous, all weighing in at around 200-500 megs a piece.

I can see that would be important with the Surface Tablets since the 32GB model is already using 16GB for OS/tools. Not so much left for personal data, still there's always the SD slot with a maximum of 64GB and the USB 2.0 port maybe connect an external drive?

Sure glad I don't have any of those problems with iOS6/OS X 10.8.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Zichi-san,

Sure glad I don't have any of those problems with iOS6/OS X 10.8.

Amen to that!

Downloading language packs?

OS/tools basic install uses up 50% of your storage? Gosh, the way Windows accumulates crap, that's going to be pretty constipated in a few months.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Gosh, the way Windows accumulates crap, that's going to be pretty constipated in a few months.

The Surface arrives constipated and comes free with the price.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

BertieWoosterNov. 08, 2012 - 09:04AM JST

Downloading language packs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6szuN4loEw

What, you thought that iOS didn't have language packs? Worst of all, they are all tied into your keyboards, so if you get rid of a language you get rid of the keyboard. Not so in WIn8/RT, display language and keyboard language are separate, and you can have Japanese keyboard without installing a language that takes up 150MB with all the help files.

OS/tools basic install uses up 50% of your storage?

Really? What does the same price give you in iOS? less than 13gb typical compared to 20gb on surface. Os itself isn't that big, and if you really want to you can get rid of hibernate and page file, giving you back 4gb. The primary storage is only meant for programs anyway, you can always use a 64gb microsdxc card to store everything else, just $30 for what competitors charge $200 for (and they only really provide less than 60)

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@BertieWooster

the Windows Surface 32GB arrives, well actually it don't arrive here, but in those countries were it does arrive, comes with about 16GB for personal data because of bloated software. The 32GB new iPad with retina display arrives with about 28GB for personal data. There's an old adage, "you get what you pay for!"

3 ( +3 / -0 )

iOS on the iPad takes up 1GB.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

There are a number of serious problems if users of the Windows Surface have to use SD cards for personal data. Very ease to steal especially, in an environment like and an office. Go the toilet and leave the card in. The card could have encrypted data and password protection but would the majority of users know how to do that. Very easy to lose especially when moving around.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Surface is perfect for business clients, because unlike crapple os, it supports full device encryption which is enabled by default, including ability to use bitlocker like encryption on the removable media (doesn't support active directory and group management so isn't exactly bitlocker). ipad doesn't even have data encryped by default, and requires you to wipe the device to enable data encryption. Worse yet, if you connect the device to a synced computer, you can read all the content even if it's been "wiped"!

The hardware might leave good profit margins on components, but it the software has so many business oriented features that it might as well be considered selling it at a loss. Hell, the only reason Microsoft isn't selling the pads direct to businesses is because they don't want to cannibalize their win8 pro devices!

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Microsoft certainly does. If these new tablets are not a success the company will be looking for a new CEO come next year. There's a strong backlash from Microsoft's oEM partners over the release of the Surface tablet. Some of the major partners have decided to delay the release of their own tablets until after the tablet pro is released next year.

You do know there are 2 types of tablets right? Window RT and Windows 8 Pro. If RT bombs and 8 Pro takes off, MS still wins.

I can see that would be important with the Surface Tablets since the 32GB model is already using 16GB for OS/tools. Not so much left for personal data, still there's always the SD slot with a maximum of 64GB and the USB 2.0 port maybe connect an external drive? Sure glad I don't have any of those problems with iOS6/OS X 10.8.

I'm sure glad I don't have to keep paying a high price for memory I already bought once. I can just swap my microSD card to the next device I buy. Allowing me to save hundreds of dollars.

Also pretty much all your Surface Pro tablets will be 64GB and higher. The higher tier models will be rocking 256 GB.

the Windows Surface 32GB arrives, well actually it don't arrive here, but in those countries were it does arrive, comes with about 16GB for personal data because of bloated software. The 32GB new iPad with retina display arrives with about 28GB for personal data. There's an old adage, "you get what you pay for!"

So what do you get? Same amount of memory and Apple tax?

There are a number of serious problems if users of the Windows Surface have to use SD cards for personal data. Very ease to steal especially, in an environment like and an office. Go the toilet and leave the card in. The card could have encrypted data and password protection but would the majority of users know how to do that. Very easy to lose especially when moving around.

If you are worried about theft in your office place, you have more problems within your company than someone stealing a $30 memory card. Cause if they are trying to steal data, they more than likely already have access to it to begin with.

There are also higher odds that the whole device will be stolen, than wasting time trying to get an SD card. Maybe you should try locking up your device. Which is easier? Pick up the tablet, run away...or...Pick up the tablet, look around the tablet for the SD card slot (which sometimes is hidden behind little doors for aesthetics), push in the card to pop it out, then run away. Both instances you will lose your information. Both instances, the user is going to know their items were stolen (since the OS will tell you the SD card was removed).

This is just a stupid arguement point for the lack of a basic tablet feature on Apple products. Actually, a basic technology feature in general. What tablet, laptops, phones, etc don't come with an SD card slot, except Apple. Even majority of mp3 players come with them.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

This is just a stupid arguement point for the lack of a basic tablet feature on Apple products. Actually, a basic technology feature in general. What tablet, laptops, phones, etc don't come with an SD card slot, except Apple.

As they say, you can buy a great product that does everything you need it to, or you can buy an apple product.

While the hardware margins are high for apple, they are so by simply scrapping everything they can, including very useful things like USB/HDMI, secondary storage, and even basic hardware encryption (which devices like blackberries have had for ages). Profits over performance must be the apple motto.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Wish I only dealt with basic hardware encryption. I deal with the Sectera Edge smartphone.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Korlacan KhanthavilayNov. 08, 2012 - 06:36PM JST

Wish I only dealt with basic hardware encryption. I deal with the Sectera Edge smartphone.

I wish I could give you more thumbs up. Now that's security in the disguise of a phone. Interestingly enough it's based on Windows kernel (think still old CE, you probably know more, even if you can't say), so when General Dynamics makes their Edge II it might very well be Windows Phone 8 or even WinRT based (heavily customized though)

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Think it'd be a while before a new Edge comes out. Luckily I don't deal with too many of them. Majority are just regular RIM blackberry phones.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

After more than two decades at Microsoft, Steven Sinofsky is forced out of the company, given the instant boot, effective immediately. He was the executive in charge of the new Windows 8 operating system and the driving force behind its new OS. Was the boot for the disappointing sales?

He was president of the Windows Division.

Microsoft have refused to give any sales figures for the new tablets and enterprise customers have given Windows 8 the thumbs down.

He was expected to be the next CEO of the company.

Guess he can ask Apple for a job?

Tablet Surface buyers have been complaining their covers are falling apart and cracking exposing the wires.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Microsoft shares drop another 2% after Ballmer was said to have commented that sales of the new Microsoft Surface tablet computer are coming along “modestly.” Also the instant dismissal of Microsoft President, Steven Sinofsky.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

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