Windows 7 strong, but don't pay to upgrade

"Klein2 at 06:38 PM JST - 15th October

I clearly do not belong in a Windows environment, but the alternative is hanging around Mac snobs or being a Linux geek..."

One of the more sensible things uttered here.

So please tell me how much a Dell would cost after you upgraded to specs for more than just checking your email for doing "real world" work.

Nothing. I use open source software. I tried a Mac once for doing "real world" work - and it didn't work out. I remember not being able to keep different applications running in different langugages at the same time and the OS wouldn't display which applications were currently running, in the toolbar, etc. I usually run 5-6 aps at the same time while working and need to quickly switch them. The Mac also garbled the names of files emailed from Japanese clients. The Mac couldn't cut it. I switched to Win 2000 with Office 2000, and all those problems disappeared. now I'm doing PC open source. My business runs on it...for free.

So please tell me how much a Dell would cost after you upgraded to specs that actually made it usable for more than just checking your email and installed all the software you need for doing "real world" work.

if you read what hakujinsensei said, you would already know the price.

to be fair, that price, that system, can work a lot more than just check email and install 3rd party software. if you want it work better, you can leave vista go for ubuntu or even win7. both request everything a lot less than vista, and run way better.

A lot of people have mentioned about Mac being multilingual and that's awesome, but the one outstanding factor that I always tell my Windows friends when suggesting they buy a Mac (besides performing better at "real world" tasks) is that a Mac is actually two computers in one. People tend to forget the fact that any modern Mac can also run Windows OS if you ever needed to.

I'm currently using Windows 7 N (for Europe which means no IE and no Media Player) and can say that this is the best windows ever. Runs as smooth as an XP and looks really well.

That's not saying much since XP never really ran that smoothly.

Strangely? Windows 3.11 is slower than DOS, Windows 95 is slower than 3.11... etc. Hardware now is so cheap this really isnt a factor unless you are running a backwards PC. The new operating systems do more, and require more resources. If you dont need to do more, use an older operating system. It's all about what you need the PC for, there are many choices out there. I'm all for choices such as Linux, however Linux is only really suitable for a minority of people.

Wow! I guess this statement actually makes sense in a Windows world. My computer (a Mac) is actually getting faster, the OS can do more and it's actually getting faster too with each upgrade. Leopard was faster than Tiger; Tiger faster than Panther; Panther faster than Jaguar and so on. Maybe it's us Mac user who are crazy for thinking that technology advances forward or that the OS should perform better on faster machines and become less bloated. Oh yes and those dreaded Mac prices. So please tell me how much a Dell would cost after you upgraded to specs that actually made it usable for more than just checking your email and installed all the software you need for doing "real world" work. In most cases, you'll find the Mac is much cheaper for what you get out of the box. But hey, maybe we're the stupid ones...... NOT!!!

every expert i came across, they recommended to do clean install, not upgrade the system.

even this link i took from MS social answer.

http://social.answers.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/GettingReadyforWindows7/thread/7fb2abd8-82f2-45c8-b328-a7ffa3b25508

Currently, there is not a direct upgrade path from Windows XP to Windows 7. You will need to backup your data manually and restore after doing a clean install.

BlackOut

I read it on a PC support page, because I was interested in reading about the new system. It was a PC support specialist trying to help those with XP upgrade to 7 The guy wrote nothing about Macs at all.

@hakujinsensei

lets have you guys post some links to pics n specs of the cool notebook computers you built for less

build for less at this moment seem to be impossible but this one close. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/building-dream-notebook,1026.html read step 3-5. it is not cheaper but it sound like a fun activity to do.

and it possible to do.

anyway i think it still better go with dell speck according to your link, and if anyone want to increase ram, that xps can host up to 8GB of DDR3 compare to only 4 gb of DDR2 by mac book. another big advantageous here.

to me the best investment go with pc technology, handsdown.

@hakujinsensei

the dell comes with XP

no it come with vista 64bit.

mac comes with more cool software and it is integrated but open source is available for either for free so...

same go with any platform. open-source selections even alot more in PC world both for linux and ms.

what next

dell - 3GB DDR3 1067MHz / mac - 2GB DDR2 800MHz

dell- 250GB 7200 RPM SATA / mac - 160GB 5400-rpm SATA

what will i pick? if it free, i go with dell and remove that vista.

a lot of them are the same but dell offer "bigger, a lot faster hdd and ram." and i don't care the OS.

if i have to pay?

i will leave both, and stay with my old laptop, get win7x64, max my ram to 6gigs only if i want to.

if you want hardware, but you don't want the os,

some people switch their OS though.... the ones that do, lets have you guys post some links to pics n tutorial of the cool Mac computers that can totally change the main OS to something not mac ; )

not

update

but "upgrade"

Yelnats,

just to remind you, it is a window7 article.

if mac is really nice for you, then stick with it. no point to tell anyone to change unless if you want to buy one for each of us.

or if you really interesting in using or learn Win7 then use it for real, don't just, i heard this that then make some wrong comment about the system.

and i have never seen anyone advice people to update from xp to win7. if that is what Mac people try to do on MS platform, no wonder you got endless problem. learn it the right way if you want to work with win7.

I've been running the Win 7 x64 Release Candidate since it went public back in the Spring. Yes, I had to re-install a lot of stuff and there are some companies, <cough>Logitech<cough>, who have refused to release Win 7 drivers until Win 7 goes "live", but the computer works fine. I highly recommend Win 7 on a new computer.

WITH THAT SAID, as is the case with ANY O/S upgrade, the hardware specs of your Win98 or WinXP machine will probably not be adequate for Win 7 unless you invested in RAM upgrades. NEVER look at Microsoft's "Minimum" requirements and feel that is OK, because that is the MINIMUM RAM necessary to get Win 7 to even start. You need MORE RAM if you want to actually use another application on the Windows desktop.

I'm a net admin and I'd say 90% of the complaints I've heard over "slow computers" can be directly attributed to insufficient RAM for what they are trying to do.

Hakujinseisensei knows his stuff!

After upgrading, users will have to reinstall all their programs and find their files in the folder where Windows 7 tucks them away.

Now isn't that a waste of time. I never have to do that when upgrading on a Mac....and I heard that the upgrade to 7 from XP is a huge painful experience and most lose badly. Back up your entire ..things you need! Because the upgrade is going to clean you out.

Mac cross language platform is fantastic. I use it with multiple at home and especially on the job. So nice to be able to use different languages at a click of a key.

Only hassle I find with my Macs and it is not a Mac problem, but a photoshop tutorial problem. I do not want to jump up to CS4. No need but so many tutorials are doing just that. They should not leave us behind.

Hope all you Windows people have fun trying to get your printers and drawing pads and scanners and cards and cameras working.

Fixing a Dell to run like a Mac, does cost the same as the initial purchase of a Mac, that already has what you need in it. Not that stupid IME language download and other silly things like...virus scan.

"Strangely? Windows 3.11 is slower than DOS, Windows 95 is slower than 3.11... etc."

This is an interesting observation. I would say that the OSs continue to get more bloated and soupy. Hard to describe, but DOS was simply related to processor speed. It seemed to go about the same speed no matter what you did with RAM, unless you diddled the cache or used a faster processor. Then WIN3.1 started to take overhead, but it used the RAM "better". By the time we got to Win95 and Win98, which were better at paging and coordinating the RAM, in my opinion, we kind of reached the peak. Tons and tons of ram and a fast processor gave great production value. You could ramp up the hardware and really see the results on-screen. It seemed that useful programs worked quickly on those OSes.

Since then, things have gotten muddled. It seems that no matter how drastically one upgrades, the SNAP is not there. The processors are 6 or 7 times faster, but they are burdened with winking icons and retracing this or that.

I clearly do not belong in a Windows environment, but the alternative is hanging around Mac snobs or being a Linux geek, and I need to spend my time on other things. I am a Windows curmudgeon by default.

I had no idea the Mac-Windows wars are still going on... totally hilarious.

apples to apples... no pun intended. the cheaper books dont have the same hardware as the mac so quit saying you can get the same windows computer for significantly less. here is the scoop from dell and apples sites.

dell.... 999 bucks US http://www.dell.com/us/en/business/notebooks/laptop-studio-xps-13/pd.aspx?refid=laptop-studio-xps-13&s=bsd&cs=04&~oid=us~en~4~laptop-studio-xps-13_anav1~~

mac.... 999 bucks US http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook?mco=MTAyNTM5ODc

same chip, same graphics, same size screen, same battery, same gen dimentions...

differences? the dell comes with XP... but it has a bigger hard drive and some more memory which would be crucial using xp and having to reload programs with every open window. the mac comes with the mag safe power cord, OSX 10.5... the mac comes with more cool software and it is integrated but open source is available for either for free so...

for the same price, you get a dell or a mac.

I'll take the mac cause the OS X is hands down and I get a multi language computer and unless you are a guru you will spend much less time keeping it running smooth. could be wrong though, 7 may have changed everything.... kind of like chrysler did with the the K car....

some people build their own though.... the ones that do, lets have you guys post some links to pics n specs of the cool notebook computers you built for less ; )

Agree with the multilanguage statement, it's a shame Windows doesnt do that as standard too. You need to buy the ultimate version for that.

Nessie- if you uninstall windows you may lose your warrenty, check before doing it. I had to keep my Japanese version of windows 64 bit when I put on English 32 bit to keep my warrenty on my new laptop.

Sounds like they are catching up but for our market no-one has mentioned one of the best reasons, in my view, to buy a Mac in Japan - multi-language. My Japanese wife can have her account in Japanese and I can have mine in English - if she wants me to troubleshoot something I switch it to English, sort it out for her and switch it back to Japanese. On her Japanese vista vio she is on her own!

I heard about a guy getting a refund for Windows by uninstalling it and using another OS. Basically, he didn't sign the liscensing agreement and he fought Microsoft for weeks. It took him a long time, but he did it.

Has anyone tried this in Japan? I always wipe the Japanese system and install an English system, so I don't want to pay for both. The computers that come with English or bi-lingual systems tend to be office computers rather than home computers.

the fact that os x uses the open source world and contributes to it is one of the biggest reasons for the ease of use, stability and security that makes it desirable.

For sure. But why pay a lot of money for that stability and security when you can have it for free?

Love how people always talk about macs being more expensive. A comparable equipped dell is just about the same price as a mac.

Mmm. Last time I visited the Apple store, the prices made me dizzy. For a Dell, chances are they also charge a premium for their brand and advertising, just like Mac.

You can buy a good quality no-brand PC, or build one yourself, the same hardware quality or better than a Mac, and put a very good, free, stable OS on it, with looots of software available. After doing that, paying the price for a Mac doesn't make sense to me.

The taskbar — the strip of icons usually found at the bottom of the screen — now does more than show which programs are running. You can also stick icons for your favorite programs on it, to launch them quickly. It’s fast and convenient, combining the best features of the old Windows taskbar and Apple’s Dock.

Um, isn't this the quick-launch bar, like in Windows XP? I'm looking at it right now in fact, I launched this browser from it. On XP. Surely something's missing here...?

"in just two years the iPhone has taken 13 percent of the market globally in just 2 years, mostly from nokia. same plastic n silicon. that 13 percent of users are not stupid, they are discerning consumers "

that made me laugh... discerning... most of them? yeah right? just following trends like buy the latest fashion handbang.

i dont think most of the people that will use win 7 either will be discerning, just look at the holes in this article for example.

"Never, ever, ever, install a Windows release in the first available month."

plenty of people installed this up to over 6 months ago.

cant agree with a lot of statements in this article. Some is true, but others plainly not , like the upgrades, start up time, 64 bit, etc. Check out a more pro review for more reliable info.

I'm currently using Windows 7 N (for Europe which means no IE and no Media Player) and can say that this is the best windows ever. Runs as smooth as an XP and looks really well.

Strangely most tests reveal that XP is significantly faster than Vista and 7 so how does that work eh?

Strangely? Windows 3.11 is slower than DOS, Windows 95 is slower than 3.11... etc.

Hardware now is so cheap this really isnt a factor unless you are running a backwards PC. The new operating systems do more, and require more resources. If you dont need to do more, use an older operating system.

It's all about what you need the PC for, there are many choices out there. I'm all for choices such as Linux, however Linux is only really suitable for a minority of people.

Hmm... I cant imagine myself paying for an OS that need that I expend more money on hardware. Mac is cool but beyond my budget. PC is worth only the games and Linux need that I learn more programing. I hope that Chrome be free + ease to install and configure, that can convince me to run PC and Linux on my desktop.

When I got my computer Vista was supposed to be so much better than XP which was supposed to be better than 2000 and so on down the line and yet none of them seem to stack up against the reliability and speed of linux which you can get for free. Its a pitty that linux is not as versatile with drivers etc. Anyway, so how much better is windows 7 than vista when after the show they are now telling us that Vista was rubbish but it was said to be the answer to all, will 7 be touted as a terrible OS when win 8 comes out just like Vista? Sounds all a bit sales like to me. Strangely most tests reveal that XP is significantly faster than Vista and 7 so how does that work eh?

hmmm, I said bye to Windows a couple of years ago. I'm sticking with my MacBook Pro and Snow Leopard. There really is nothing in Windows that is attractive to make me switch back.

Never, ever, ever, install a Windows release in the first available month.

Interesting discussion. From my experience vista was an excellent OS a year after release, I didn't touch it on release (why would I when I can let other people test it for me).

Am running Windows 2k on one PC, Vista on another and on my laptop.

I've heard only good things about Windows 7 from people testing it, however I still won't upgrade on day 1, even though it will be free to upgrade a desktop and laptop.

Macs? I guess if what you need to do can be done one one, they aren't bad. But I'd rather build my own PC for under half the price.

abromofo, a hundai n benz are both made of steel, rubber, plastic n wire... it is not what it is made of but how it is made. the fact that os x uses the open source world and contributes to it is one of the biggest reasons for the ease of use, stability and security that makes it desirable.

in just two years the iPhone has taken 13 percent of the market globally in just 2 years, mostly from nokia. same plastic n silicon. that 13 percent of users are not stupid, they are discerning consumers responding to a positive user experience. Love how people always talk about macs being more expensive. A comparable equipped dell is just about the same price as a mac.

Like I said, I havent tried the new 7 yet but it is just a polished up vista as far as I have read. Of course OS x 10.6 is just a polished 10.5 but since 10.5 was light years ahead of vista in terms of reliability and having an intuitive user interface, my guess is that 7 is still far behind the curve... My curiosity is so peaked I am heading to Joshin right now to check it out ; )

Klein2... are you still using dos, unix or linux on the command line? Remember fortran?fast n simple but I have gotten lazy in my old age and found a GUI quite handy... especially when trying to keep the staff productive. I also can not imagine why in this day and age that anyone would buy office or photoshop when Open Office and Gimp and free downloads... I did seriously give linux a try a couple of years ago but there were a few things like language barriers, syncing, and ease of getting the staff up to speed that made the 120 bucks for the OS seem cheap when compared with my time ; )

Buy a Mac. Yeah, yeah, they are more expensive (ooh!). You can buy a Benz or a Hyundai too but...

But what if you were paying for a Benz badge stuck on a Hyundai?

The "inner workings" of Mac OS are a collection of (mostly free) Unix family software packages. It just has a pretty user interface on top.

And Mac adopted the same hardware architecture as PCs quite a few years ago.

I'm not saying Macs are rubbish, I'm just saying everyone should look closer, instead of praising Macs for being special and different. They ain't. But they are extremely expensive for what you get.

Are there actually losers out there hosting "Windows 7 Launch Parties"? Really? Us Mac users thought that was just a big joke. I love Macs but I would NEVER host a Mac OS Launch party unless of course Apple was paying me (a lot) to do so. Just goes to show how goofy Windows users actually are.

On another note, I think a journalist from MacUser magazine said it best:

"It’s amazing how future Microsoft products beat current Apple products time and time again, isn’t it? You’d think Apple would have just given up by now."

Windows 7 will give Windows users features that Mac users have been using for years and they're all excited about it. They talk about it like it was something new or futuristic. If you are using Windows, you are behind the curve and that's where you will stay until you switch to a Mac. No argument, no excuses. It's a fact. Get used to it.

If you do upgrade, I would still recommend tackling that transition head-on by installing the 64-bit version of Windows 7

You need to have a 64bit CPU, unless you ask for it you're most likely going to get a 32bit 90% of the time. The writer explains what a driver is but fails to explain this valuable piece of information.

but don't pay to upgrade

There is nothing in this article saying why we should not pay to upgrade? It gives a pro's and cons but is there a free way to get the software? Why should we not pay for it?

Nothing's perfect, people. Especially when it comes to operating systems.

" a good excuse to get back into the game"

Yippee. The game of learning a new interface just so I can play insipid movies and rap music. Me first Me first. New interface. Yay! A pox on both your houses Mac and Win. You are trying to generate "loyalty and enthusiasm" for products that were fundamentally developed in the early 1980s: spreadsheets, databases, word processors, and media display. Office Org gives it away free, and everything else is just a toy. So what exactly am I buying again? Toys... for getting back into the game. Romper room consumerism. People seriously deserve to be unemployed.

Why was a file/directory based interface so bad anyway? Oh yeah, because most humans were too lazy to understand it. Therefore, interface "development" has been a continual process of dumbing functionality down to the lowest common denominator.

Meh. The longer I wait to buy Windows 7, the more likely it is I can just move to Windows 8 the next time I have to.

As I said in a different comment, if the number of users were the other way around, Macs would be hounded by viruses too.

And I agree. By my experience Windows 2000 is the best OS I ever worked with. Too bad they discontinued support without a worthy replacement. But I'm giving Windows 7 a chance.

hahaha, rock solid n fast... that was my Mac OS 9...

Happened to fire it up on an old book the other day looking for some long lost files... Could not believe how fast it was... UNBELIEVABLE but would I extol it? It is a new day and time to move on. 7 just might be a decent system, heaven knows they have been working at it for long enough ; ) I might just go over to a friends house n give it a whirl.

But I am pretty much stuck on Mac after all these years. Unix underneath to run the geekiest of things, security, lack of viruses, user log ins, iLife and iWork... For those of us in an international, being able to log in in the language of my choice and having my aps open in that language... my choice of 133 different ones I believe is the biggest factor for our orgainzation. Never having to buy 2 or 3 of the same aps so our different staff can use them only to be stumped when a system dialog box comes up in an unfamiliar language ; )

Being able to sync our calendars, mails etc. worldwide automatically with either .me, exchange or our own server keeps us all on board with what everyone is doing.

I suppose that if someone was buying a net book, and was only going to be doing mail n surfing the web it might make sense to take the cheap route... but then again that sounds like a good job for an iPod touch at 2 man yen. But if a guy had to use photoshop or illustrator, a MacBook at 10 man yen seems like a steal compared to a marginally equipped 6 man yen netbook...

Of course there is the gaming factor but with crossover n other virtual systems that seems like a non issue.. besides I prefer the short skirted variety of gaming anyway....

Great, the tired old Windows-versus-Mac discussion, yet again. Neither side is convinced by the other's (usually subjective) arguments and nothing ever comes of it.

MS Millennium ed. was a total dog, ditto Vista. I run XP on work PCs and have to run anti-spyware, anti-virus and download colossal numbers of patches, all of which takes time that I don't often have. The boot up times are annoyingly slow too. Privately I use Macs; they pretty much always work, are easier and more fun to use. Vista stole all its good points (like the search function) from Mac OS Tiger. What's astonishing is that with 20 times the money, Microsoft still sell a product that is around a fifth as useful, enjoyable and user-friendly as Mac OS. It's a fact - it's indisputable but puzzling. I really hope MS can improve their OS and at least make it more secure seeing as the business world relies on them.

The two above comments are wrong. Windows 2000 was a brilliant OS, rock solid. Never had any problems, while my Mac workmates (I work in media) were having to phone up the "Mac Care" technicians from time to time and paying for upgrades in order to run pretty standard applications. XP has been great as well and 7 promises the same.

True, Vista and Millenium were dogs, but I just avoided using them.

I can't help but laugh at people who think This Time It Will Be Better. It was supposed to be better years ago, and it's still not there

Buyers of this 'new and improved' crapware deserve the anguish, regret and frustration they will inevitably find. Buy a Mac. Yeah, yeah, they are more expensive (ooh!). You can buy a Benz or a Hyundai too but...