'Stupid' and 'insane': Some billionaires attack tax plan

“My plan,” the SpaceX founder tweeted Thursday about his fortune, "is to use the money to get humanity to Mars and preserve the light of consciousness."

Your reason not to pay taxes is you want to spend all your money on a big private spaceship so you can escape from an Earth that is falling apart and go live on a planet that has no air and the temperature is like minus 50 degrees on a warm day?

THAT is “stupid and insane”. Pay your taxes for Christ’s sake.

“My plan,” the SpaceX founder tweeted Thursday about his fortune, "is to use the money to get humanity to Mars and preserve the light of consciousness."

Respect Musk's big dreams, and he is doing more positives with his fortune than all the money changers in Wall Street and banking, but disappointed that he cannot be in front of this issue and contrast his production and use of wealth with say, Jeremy Diamond of Goldman Sachs.

The billionaire tax plan, Catsimatidis told The Associated Press, is “a little bit insane.”

After the revelations of the Panama and Pandora papers, I wonder how many temporarily distressed billionaires will come out defending billionaires any saying they should not pay more in taxes, despite their much greater use of public resources to make their fortunes.

Remember the definition of a capitalist: Someone who makes enough returns from their assets, rents, investments to be able to comfortably live off of them. The rest, how much many try to delude themselves, are slaves to a wage.

Elon Musk isn't happy.

Don't think he’s ever been happy!

Not every billionaire shares such outrage. A spokesperson for George Soros, the investor and liberal philanthropist, told the AP that Soros is “supportive of the proposed billionaires tax.”

And while Warren Buffett has yet to comment publicly on the proposed tax, the billionaire head of Berkshire Hathaway has long called for higher taxes on the ultra-wealthy like himself.

Now that’s my kind of billionaires.

Billionaires are pissed at being asked to pay a fair tax rate. Shocked!

Call me old-fashioned, but I say if you can afford to have your own private spaceship then you can afford to pay a bit more in taxes.

Either the billionaire....

Poor Elon, being asked to pay for infrastructure he utilizes and the education of the workers he will need to make himself richer than he already is.

Doesn’t government know that he’s smarter than they are and that the government should just let him do as he pleases with no constraints? In fact, why don’t we make him the un-elected ruler beholden to nobody?

“Wither the billionaire” ... Damn you, autocorrect!

Let the poor eat the rich.

ProPublica reported in June that some of the richest Americans have paid no income tax, or nearly none, in some years — including Musk, who, the report said, paid zero income taxes in 2018.

Critics argue that Musk's criticism of the billionaire tax proposal overlooks the fact that Tesla's rise has been aided by government incentives and loans.

The hypocrisy here stinks to high heaven. The tax rate for the filthy rich was much, much higher before Reagan and should be put back up considerably.

The gap is getting bigger between rich and poor and understand this, the rich do not give back profits to the poor or the public. They hoard it.

Just ask all those middle class and poor who've had to endure Reagan's or copy cat Abe's policies.

they run out of other people’s money

They got this the wrong way around. It's the government (along with the Federal Reserve) that issues the money. And they got rich by capturing a very, very big portion of it.

Anyway, space exploration was light years ahead back when it was done by government agencies. The private sector space programs, like journeys lasting a couple of minutes, are very underwhelming and a waste of, well, money.

Yeah I'm guessing if you have $300 billion and paying zero income the system might be rigged in your favor just a tad.

I pay my income taxes every year.

“We can get up and go somewhere else.”

Which he has done before. His sole allegiance is to his bank account. I guess that is consistent with those in the 'greed is good' world. Especially those who expect taxpayer's money to provide services and infrastructure that especially benefit the excesssively me-centric like Musk. And others who think 'freedom' means 'I can do whatever i want',, but like Ho Chi Minh said "Nothing is more important than freedom". I wonder how Musk would have faired had he moved to Vietnam instead.

Unlike JFK, Musk and ilk ask NOT what they can do for their country, what they care primarily about is NOT having to pay for services and infrastructure which the 'others' might also benefit from.

Many of the greed is good herd claim to be something they call patriots, while showing utter disdain for the US.

Ol' Musky complaining about having to pay taxes. Meanwhile, SpaceX is raking in those defense contractor dollars from the US government and Tesla's government incentives while he treats his employees like garbage and busts unions. Can't to see his company town on Mars.....I'm sure his cult will love it.

I never understood the cult of personality around this guy, he has one hell of a PR team.

Leon Cooperman, the outspoken billionaire investor who has long denounced Sen. Elizabeth Warren's own proposal for a wealth tax, has added his voice to the exasperation coming from some of the uber-wealthy.

In an interview with The Daily Beast, Cooperman said of the tax, “I doubt it’s legal, and it’s stupid."

Having Musk be the face of opposition to the billionaire tax is unfortunate. With batteries for solar panels, space exploration and electric vehicles, it can be argued that the production of his wealth is a net positive to society.

The same cannot be said about whining hedge fund ghouls like Cooperman. Or the host of tax-dodging real estate developers, like the former president; or bailout-receiving Wall Street bankers. With the Democrats like Biden, it is hard to see how much they will really go to the wall for this proposal, as Biden has long been a friend of Wall Street.

“My plan,” the SpaceX founder tweeted Thursday about his fortune, "is to use the money to get humanity to Mars and preserve the light of consciousness."

What the hell are you going to do on Mars?

10% flat tax. It pays for everything. Eliminate the entire 17,000 pages and 5.5 million words, all written by lawyers. And that doesn't include the tax codes in individual states.

And while we're at it, get rid of the lawyers, too. Send them all to Mars.

Poor people need to realize their thinking is wrong and that’s why they’re poor.

Found the temporarily distressed billionaire. Yeah ,generations of wealth and accumulation of capital had nothing to do with it. Neither did leveraging that capital to access publicly funded patents and research, overuse public lands and publicly funded infrastructure and educational resources; all that means nothing. If I just stop thinking like a poor person , maybe buy a used copy of Art of the Deal and get that MAGA grindset, the money will flow.

One of the biggest problems with poor people is the lengths they will go to to undermine their own interests and defend billionaires.

Which he has done before. His sole allegiance is to his bank account.

Why not? He earned it. He can use and spend his money as he pleases.

I guess that is consistent with those in the 'greed is good' world.

No, we are a Constitutional Republic and we use the Capitalist system that has brought more wealth, growth and prosperity throughout the nation which allows anyone to partake in the system to generate as much wealth as they can, love it.

Especially those who expect taxpayer's money to provide services and infrastructure that especially benefit the excesssively me-centric like Musk. And others who think 'freedom' means 'I can do whatever i want',, but like Ho Chi Minh said "Nothing is more important than freedom". I wonder how Musk would have faired had he moved to Vietnam instead. 

The rich already pay more than enough in taxes. Now Biden wants the middle class to chip in. This is nuts? The cradle to grave social spending will never happen and will never uplift America in its form. If you want to move ahead and create wealth and prosperity, lower taxes, create economic incentives reward hard work ethics. Look at the Cuban community how they prospered, the Jewish and Asian communities particularly the Koreans and Vietnamese. Biden’s framework proposals will create more poverty as we are seeing and less economic opportunities as more businesses are leaving blue States and some the entire country and that never helps the US.

Unlike JFK, Musk and ilk ask NOT what they can do for their country, what they care primarily about is NOT having to pay for services and infrastructure which the 'others' might also benefit from. 

Utter nonsense, apply that to Amazon where people are doing a lot for the company and what are they getting? Musk is doing his part by offering better and more economic opportunities in his new State and that’s exciting. More wealth and growth equals more spending and more money is put and recycled back into the economy and that’s what you want. Robbing Paul to give to Peter is just a band-aid, a short term fix.

Many of the greed is good herd claim to be something they call patriots, while showing utter disdain for the US.

And this is why more and more people are voting less Democrat and the Dems know this.

That’s a puzzling statement sir, what is it about your thinking that makes you poor!

e.g. Increased income = increased spending (being stuck in the rat race). Believing that you can save enough money to get rich. Never investing a dime. Having a general negative attitude and continue to blame others (the government/the rich) for your own misfortune.

Who is John Galt.

Found the temporarily distressed billionaire. Yeah ,generations of wealth and accumulation of capital had nothing to do with it. Neither did leveraging that capital to access publicly funded patents and research, overuse public lands and publicly funded infrastructure and educational resources; all that means nothing. 

With your logic only individuals from already rich families will be rich. What about self-made millionaires or entrepreneurs?

Being rich isn’t a crime. Poor people need to realize their thinking is wrong and that’s why they’re poor. Not because of some evil rich white man. No citizen should have to fork over 50 billion dollars to the government. 

Oh I see, that's very interesting. Why are the rich, rich then? Surely all billionaires didn't make that much money all on their own.

“My plan,” the SpaceX founder tweeted Thursday about his fortune, "is to use the money to get humanity to Mars and preserve the light of consciousness."

Living on Mars. The light of consciousness. Yeah. Sure. This guy is already way out there but this tax IS also way out there. We should tax the insanely rich a bit more than the average Joe but this seems like punishment. They need a better plan.

The rich already pay more than enough in taxes.

No, they don’t. That’s the whole point.

Capitalist system that has brought more wealth, growth and prosperity throughout the nation which allows anyone to partake in the system to generate as much wealth as they can, love it.

Generations of Native Americans and African Americans would like to have a word with your blinders.

Look at the Cuban community how they prospered, the Jewish and Asian communities particularly the Koreans and Vietnamese.

Funny how you highlight certain groups and leave out others. You said "anyone" in your previous sentences. Is it "personal responsibility" you are hinting at? that notion seems to go out the door when the capitalists' fortunes take a downturn (2008, Musk and wall street receiving pandemic stimulus funds) and they need a bailout from those public taxpayer funds which they assiduously try to avoid using their own fortunes to pay into.

Utter nonsense, apply that to Amazon where people are doing a lot for the company

Unintentionally on point. many people are contributing a lot to the growth of Amazon, and Bezos is reaping the mega-lion share of the rewards.

More wealth and growth equals more spending and more money is put and recycled back into the economy and that’s what you want.

Which is what is exactly what is not happening if you read with Panama and Pandora papers. It is going into overseas tax havens.

Probably getting a lot bad votes for this comment… but the rich people are making this planet worse!

“We can get up and go somewhere else.”

One of the things about not being subject to the law is that you are no longer protected by it either.

So when you leave the US to escape taxation, you won't be begging the State Dept. to repatriate you if necessary, right? You won't be appealing to the DOJ for patent protection for your intellectual property, right? You won't be angling for Consular Representation when the local thug decides to engage in Hostage Diplomacy, right?

And the idea that people are going to leave the Democratic Party and vote Republican because the Democrats want to tax 700 ASTOUNDINGLY RICH people to pay for health, child-care and roads and bridges that don't collapse is so laughable on it's face, it begs a couple of questions that would no doubt get moderated.

I paid more in income taxes in 2018 than Elon Musk. I'm guessing everyone else here did, too.

Am I wrong? And do you still feel like the system isn't rigged?

worth $300 billion........$50 billion tax bill leaving $250 billion.....that's $250,000,000,000........will he even notice it gone?? How much money does 1 man need?

preserve the light of consciousness

By abandoning an abundant paradise for a barren hell?

A pathetically dim light of consciousness there, Mr. Musk.

median wage in the US in 2019 $34,000 (rounded down for easiness)

50 billion is 16% of 300 billion

16% of 34000 is 5440......who would miss that money more, the billionaire with another 250 billion or the average worker with $28560 to raise a family on??

The media sure love to focus on Elon Musk while all of the other billionaires can fly under the radar. Why isn't anyone going up to Dorsey, Zuckerburg or Bezos on their opinion and happiness to pay more taxes?

so what is the tax rate on Mars ?

What?! I'm going to have to pay more in taxes than Joe Shmo?! I'm outraged!

“Increased Musk’s wealth by roughly $37 billion” merely means that a company’s stock value had a daily fluctuation. It doesn’t mean that Musk has $37 billion sitting around that he can spend freely. He has no more money in his wallet than he did a week ago.

The latest idiocy of the Democrats is that they want to tax unrealized capital gains. This would ultimately require every successful business owner to sell off parts of the companies that they built in order to pay taxes on increases in stock value for stock that they haven’t even sold yet.

Critics argue that Musk's criticism of the billionaire tax proposal overlooks the fact that Tesla's rise has been aided by government incentives and loans.

The solution then is to abolish corporate welfare such as this.

Let’s not have such government incentives.

Government is the source of so many problems, not the solution.

Will Musk be fighting the newly proposed tax incentives for EVs?

EV tax credit increase to $12,500 makes the cut in Biden's Build Back Better framework

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ev-tax-credit-increase-12500-biden-build-back-better/

Tesla buyers get up to $10,000 in tax credits, which means the government will forgo $10,000 in income taxes, if you buy a Tesla.

That's some free market stuff.

Yeah right. Recent Forbes headline: Bezos, Musk And Buffett—Paid Federal Income Taxes Equaling Just 3.4% Of $401 Billion In New Wealth, Bombshell Report Shows

Except that this is nonsense. They didn’t have $401 billion in income. Their companies are more valuable, but all they have is stock. That wealth is not money in the bank. It’s just the value of the company.

The idea of taxing anyone on the market value of their company is ludicrous. It’s saying that business owners have to sell off their companies in order to pay the government.

increased Musk’s wealth by roughly $37 billion — more than what the IRS collects in estate and gift tax revenue from the entire country in one year.

A good illustration of how pointless such narrow-based taxes are, and why many countries such as Sweden and New Zealand have eliminated such taxes over recent decades.

If the US wants a stable, significant source of tax revenues, introducing a consumption tax with a broad base is the best way to do it, coupled with adjustments down in income tax rates to compensate.

The problem the US has is they are talking about plans to spend trillions extra, when even the estimates for their new proposed taxes are a mere fraction of the extra spending proposals. That is insanity.

Inequality was not always a thing, especially post WWII. Then came Regan, "Trickle-Down" economics and massive tax cuts for the wealthy. And surprise surprise, in the same country where a guy decides to colonize another planet on a whim, old people cannot afford teeth and children go to schools with asbestos in the ceilings.

It is more than unconscionable, it's evil. And that is from an MBA who believes in WELL-REGULATED free markets (The zealots always leave out the first 2 words of a four word phrase) and capitalism.

This article is all but attacking Musk, no mention of the left aligned likes of Bezos, Dorsey, Zuckerberg etc.. as to what are there views, and Musk's wealth is is very different..eg Tesla just makes a tiny fraction of cars when compared to GM or Ford.

the wealth tax wouldn't diminish Elon's dreams of space, since the money isn't being used or in the act of activity in the companies he runs. But it would be perhaps an uncomfortable reminder to Elon that we live in a society and costs have to be paid.

There is a country in the world that did this successfully with high taxes on the wealthy and it paid for supporting its society.

It was the USA of the 50's to the 70's. That's when much of the infrastructure that's collapsing was first made. It had the lowest income inequiality between the CEO and employee, a time when one earner could own a house. The income split up to the 70's was around 40:1. Fast forward to today and it's over 400:1.

Elon shouldn't care about the money as the objective for him is to get to a dead planet that's poisioness to humans. Contrary to himself and reality he's already received money from NASA and government to be successful and that wouldn't change the results

To the notion that somehow this is expensive, tell that to the Repubs and their voters who gave away a trillion dollar tax cut during the Trump years. Your debt ceiling is higher every year. You are going to have to start paying your bills yo

No, they don’t. That’s the whole point.

Yes, they do. These people stop paying cold turkey, watch what happens within a month. Again, money is mobile and luckily most of these people (hopefully) will move their money.

If the Democrats are as intelligent as they are able to convince voters that they are, why can't they come up with their own money making plans?

The democratic party has always been about raising taxes by convincing voters that they will benefit from taking someone else's money, and then skimming a good share of it for themselves.

They were never seriously considering taxing their media controlling billionaire friends at least.

they have to pretend that didn’t work out ti justify taxing regular people instead.

“Oh we tried” is the common response as they remove all the reasonable benefits in favor of crazed socialist policies.

If the Democrats are as intelligent as they are able to convince voters that they are, why can't they come up with their own money making plans?

huh? Their own money making plans? What does that even mean?

The democratic party has always been about raising taxes by convincing voters that they will benefit from taking someone else's money, and then skimming a good share of it for themselves.

Rightwing nonsense. There is zero proof of this.

Anyway, space exploration was light years ahead back when it was done by government agencies. The private sector space programs, like journeys lasting a couple of minutes, are very underwhelming and a waste of, well, money.

That viewpoint was very similar when commercial air travel started for the rich, further space exploration and space tourism are two different things..space tourism will lead to democratization of space..and that definitely needs to happen.. and not to mention all the new technologies that will be invented along the way.

Rightwing nonsense. There is zero proof of this.

Yeah, there is proof. Look at every single black and Latino community. So for over 60 years how has income redistribution helped them?

Don't just vote me down. Tell us what your problem is with a flat 10% tax.

Come on. Do it.

“You’re talking about the people that create the jobs,” he said of billionaires. “We can get up and go somewhere else.”

Where ? How will that work ?

As a entrepreneur, why wouldn’t I? And Biden trying to steal as much money as he can from all of this 800 people amount to beans, let alone make a huge impact on the economy, that can go on for so long

Your empathy for this group, which of course you also have demonstrated for so many other groups as conservative s are won't to do,, is heartwarming.

Yeah, there is proof. Look at every single black and Latino community. 

Yes a real humanitarian.

Again, money is mobile and luckily most of these people (hopefully) will move their money.

These temporarily distressed billionaires auditioning to be the money managers for billionaires is what is wrong with society. Money is right and we must accommodate all it's whims if you want a shot at the jackpot. Which will not happen

read the article well..

SOME billionaires .... oppose ... the DEMOCRATIC PARTY plan ..

Where are the rest??

Did they welcome the plan? The so called DEMOCRATIC PARTY plan

If they are so much democratic worshippers then why did they wait for a plan to come to spend their billions to poor people?????

Especially the Twitter, Amazon, CNN, Facebook, Blomberg etc.. etc.. NO they will not.. They need the existence of poor people , angry people, stupid people to keep on attacking the one who give job and prosperity to nation. Because they are the so called democratic party Billionaires..

Now to multi - millionaires... Most of the democratic politicians are multi millionaires .... earned money through playing politics and kick back from foreign nations.... looting the tax money. WILL they pay back that to our govt? show the model ... Start with Biden family... and Pelosi......

That viewpoint was very similar when commercial air travel started for the rich, further space exploration and space tourism are two different things..space tourism will lead to democratization of space..and that definitely needs to happen.. and not to mention all the new technologies that will be invented along the way.

The analogy to commercial air travel is misleading, they always had a path to bringing costs down to make it affordable for regular people. No such path exists for space travel. Its expensive now and (among other things) owing to the energy required, which the laws of physics prevent us from reducing, it always will be.

The more apt analogy is mega-yachts. They started out as a thing only for the rich, today they remain a thing only for the rich, and there is no way that the cost of them will ever be reduced enough for them to ever be anything but things only for the rich.

Saying space tourism is going to lead to a "democratization of space" makes about as much sense as saying mega-yachts will lead to a "democratization of the oceans." Its just meaningless BS to justify rich people spending obscene amounts of money on toys for themselves while the rest of society falls apart.

Let the poor eat the rich.

The far left are hilarious, they want us to be a nation of paupers.

Do you know who will never allow that in their country? China. It's almost like the far left is paid off by China because every day they try to weaken America, and yet at the same time they either turn a blind eye to international politics or know nothing about it.

They were never seriously considering taxing their media controlling billionaire friends at least.

they have to pretend that didn’t work out ti justify taxing regular people instead.

“Oh we tried” is the common response as they remove all the reasonable benefits in favor of crazed socialist policies.

This, they won't attack the donor class. Besides, billionaires are notoriously good at commanding their army of accountants and lawyers to find every loophole they can to avoid paying taxes. The middle class can't say the same, so they always end up paying these taxes. And where does the money go? To low-class people who don't appreciate it and whose communities will barely benefit.

It was the USA of the 50's to the 70's.

Wait, didn’t JFK propose his famous tax cuts bang in the middle of that period, to get the economy going again?

Get to Mars while underpaying your workers. We do not need billionaires.

But he did not "earn it". He used other people to do that.

If he didn’t then it wouldn’t bear his name. You’re making the same ludicrous argument Obama when he talked about Apple and Steve Jobs. Just stupid! Apple wouldn’t be what it is today without the vision of Steve Jobs and the same goes for Tesla and everything else Musk touches.

A quick search and fact-check would show that most of the super-rich pay taxes at a lower rate.

Still, they pay, if they didn’t, the would would be in shambles, who do you think buys goods in Ginza and Rodeo Drive? The poor? The poor build hotels? They buy real estate?

Another of your favorite catchphrases but does not apply to the majority of people. Even people receiving unemployment benefits, paid first to qualify. The rich too received many benefits.

And the Dems want to continue the handout even though the country is open again for business. At least to bill Clinton’s credit, he made unemployment available for only six months and east Democrats think that they can continue this indefinitely. 

The structure of the society has to be paid for.

it cannot be paid for continuously by taxpayers and especially if the nation does not produce income, as long as we take it more than we put out and the nation fails to create and the demonization of small businesses and to completely tax them into oblivion and to take away incentives will not help economic growth, it will hinder it and more people will sit on their money. This is always the Achilles’ heel of the Democrat party and this is the reason why they always get caught up and lose on this issue every single election cycle.

You are strong on defense spending

Yes, do you think I want a military China trying to destroy the US trying to instill radical communism onto this country. Why would I want a weak US? I want a military beefed up in 45 US that can take on any adversary.

and so it needs to be paid for. The infrastructure is crumbling and in a dangerous state. Will you be happy when people are killed by collapsing bridges?

To be honest with you both parties, but especially the Democrats have been complaining about infrastructure for over 25 years and they never have done anything about it, but this time around now they want to do something about it?, I do believe that our bridges and many of our infrastructures need to be overhauls, but that is not what the Democrats are going to do, they could’ve done it years ago and they haven’t.

Poverty is still too high but decreasing. Are you saying the other minority group, black do not prosper because?

Of Democrat policies, name me one city in US where blacks and Latinos are prosperous and the average income is over $70,000 a year with low crime rate and schools with low dropout rates and black families they have low incarceration rates in black neighborhoods with low crime.

That is the way all societies work. You pay in with taxes but may not always benefit. Taxpayers without children still have a portion of their taxes spent on education. You can't have a system where people only pay for what they use.

And you can’t and will never have people pay taxes if they feel the government is doing what it wants and the taxpayer is not seeing any benefit.

Compare the lowest paid Amazon worker with Jeff Bezos.

So then maybe the über-rich liberal should make better working conditions for his people, but the government adding increased taxes on the middle class won’t help, people will continue to cling to their money.

Tesla is not a big "employee" with about 70,000 employees.

That’s a lot of people and most get paid well. It pays a lot to live in a State with low taxes and to have a decent salary based on your skills and talent, of course they should be compensated.

I’m sick and tired of Elon Musk. 

Is someone forcing you to read and comment about it? Things don't go away if you keep paying attention to them.

defending the right of billionaires to remain virtually tax-free

Come on he’s not saying that.

avoid paying too much incomes taxes by using the capital gains system which is taxed at lower rates.

That’s not the point.

Look, I have made millions of yen recently, and I won’t pay much tax on it at all this year. Why not? Because it’s money made on paper, not realized yet.

If the rich don’t realize gains then they don’t pay capital gains because there are none.

Capital gains tax are due when capital gains are realized.

The dopey proposals this time have suggested the wealthy must pay tax without realizing gains. In effect, forcing them to sell assets .

leftsist consistently spout that rich people dont pay taxes, that they underpay their employees and that they themselves didnt generate their riches themselves as some type of indisputable truth.

Its not indisputable fact, actually.

Just because Bezos appears to do that, doesnt mean it applies to everyone else.

and Warren Buffett keeps talking but I dont see him writing any checks to the US Treasury for any extra than he has to.

Is there anything wrong with these salaries?

Compare these to liberal icon Bezos and Amazon.

"Amazon reveals how much it paid its median employee last year: $29,007"

https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employee-salary-pay-median-worker-compensation-compared-jeff-bezos-2021-4

Average Salaries at Tesla

Roofer $26.20 per hour

Production Associate $19.97 per hour

Senior Engineer $160,526 per year

Solar Installer $22.95 per hour

Electrician $34.67 per hour

Service Technician $24.53 per hour

Material Handler $21.95 per hour

Warehouse Associate $18.98 per hour

Order Picker $12.96 per hour

https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Tesla/salaries

What is wrong with all people paying a fair share of taxes?

What is a “fair share”?

The rich already pay the vast bulk of taxes in the US.

If someone is wealthy because they work for nothing, live frugally, but have lots of unrealized wealth, what do you want to tax them on?

You want to force them to realize some of that wealth and have it converted to taxes?

Shame on them for working and living frugally, yeah!!!

earning less than $500,000.

actually $400,000 which in some high cost areas is not much at all.

You arent "rich" in NYC or Silicon Valley with that amount if its a couple and you have kids in school.

so leftists expect Musk to just give 50 billion of his 300 billion "wealth" to the government, just because.

to pay that, he would have to sell Tesla stock, right?

which would cause the stock to drop 50% then he is only worth 150 billlion, yet still has to pay 50 billion tax? then everyone who holds Tesla stock loses half their investment too and tax revenue from them decreases as well.

None of this happens in a vacuum. If anyone thinks Elon Musk has a pile of 300 billion dollars cash in his pantry, you arent getting it. He would have to sell stock, negatively impact the market and then he has less money left to pay employees and fund innovation.

As Elon said, he has better ideas what to do with this money than the government does. (3.5 billion for hearing aids for old people!?)

“My plan,” the SpaceX founder tweeted Thursday about his fortune, "is to use the money to get humanity to Mars and preserve the light of consciousness.

Anybody think Musk is spending $50 billion of his apparent $300 billion wealth every year in his quest to get to Mars? Its pretty deceptive to claim you are using much of you own wealth when you cant access most of it.

The U.S needs an audit at every level of government, just like any company would do from time to time. You wonder if anything like that actually happens within governments. Cost/Benefit analysis.

I doubt much will happen before midterms, meaning more Republicans and the end of any billionaire tax.

What do these billionaires want to cut from spending? I would be interested to know. That would be quite telling actually.

The cost of building a Tesla Model 3 is around $28,000 for both materials and labor. The rear-drive Standard Range Plus model starts at $45,190.

now do Nike?

Shoes made by child labor cost cost $16 and sell for upwards of $100.

I never hear any leftists complaining about that. CEO of Nike is super woke, would that have anything to do with the silence?

The dopey proposals this time have suggested the wealthy must pay tax without realizing gains. In effect, forcing them to sell assets .

Well, OK, but how would you deal with the underlying problem that has led to a focus on wealth tax rather than income (or capital gains) tax in the first place?

The reason they are proposing to tax wealth (or at least one of the reasons) is that wealth has a different growth dynamic from income which poses a macroeconomic problem. In our current economies, the return rate on capital (ie wealth) is higher than the growth rate of the economy. Mathematically this means that wealth will accumulate among those who have it at increasing rates year by year - ie the proportion of overall assets in the world owned by those who had the the most wealth to begin with will increase at the expense of those who did not. Basically anyone who doesn't have enough surplus wealth to take advantage of this system because they have to use what they have to pay rent, buy food, etc will find their overall ownership of assets decrease proportionally.

This is the dynamic we have seen play out in recent decades - the proportion of world assets owned by the top 0.1% have increased substantially, while the proportion owned by the bottom 99.9% of us have decreased.

There is no mechanism in the market to address this problem, so just saying "leave the government out of it" effectively means "just let this go on and on, I don't care." If we just let it play out like that, the 0.1% (or 0.01%) will just continually increase their ownership until they control almost everything, which is the dystopian path we are on now.

A wealth tax is partly at least intended to address this problem. I'm not sure the current proposal mentioned in the article will do much, but at any rate this is a serious problem that I haven't seen any other proposals for dealing with put forward, particularly by those trashing it.

The simpletons ( democrats ) eat the rich instincts as a solution to all of their own inadequacies, laziness and notions of entitlement is a mindset that will do so much more harm than good. Killing potential and harming those that hold onto it ( and around the, ) the most. Attacking a genius and maverick like Elon Musk is proof of that pudding.

Take your revolution back to the sandpit, if you don't mind. The adult world will get on with trying to survive and thrive in a competitive, rules-based, and meritocratic landscape. There's little time for whinging there.

I know I know, nothing worse than an ex-lefty!

Tesla business model is literally based on receiving massive government incentives for electric cars and selling regulatory credits to other automakers. When they stop receiving taxpayer money then maybe Elon can talk again. Maybe.

This is a slippery slope. First, they'll tax the billionaires who founded their companies with government assistance. Next thing you know, they'll be telling Elon he can't get his cadmium from mines that use child slaves. Where will it end?? Won't somebody please think of the billionaires??

The National Debt increased by $7 trillion during Trump's term.

And it’s ballooning under this administration and fast.

Nice try. Nike CEO:

He is the co-founder and chairman emeritus of Nike, Inc., and was previously chairman and CEO of the company. As of July 23, 2020, Knight was ranked by Forbes as the 24th richest person in the world, with an estimated net worth of US$50.7 billion.

oh trump is a billionaire now? Thought he was a “broke” failed businessman. Interesting.

Topic is Musk and billionaires like Trump, not Nike.

Peter NeilToday  09:54 am JST

Don't just vote me down. Tell us what your problem is with a flat 10% tax.

Come on. Do it.

See, I knew you wouldn't.

You make noise about everything, because you relish arguments and hate solutions.

That’s right, it’s not good to tax them multiple times, after business operations and again, into their already taxed and then lower assets. I doubt it is even constitutional. In addition, the challenges and necessary researches everywhere and setting it all into reality, products and mass employment, nowadays need big investments, as well as the poor in society and in the world need their charity contributions. If the state taxes the super riches more, all those investments and contributions are cut or impossible anymore and then the same sum or more is needed to be paid out of the collected taxes. Doesn’t make sense, and much money triples useless into sand , greedy illegal pockets, from possible employment into welfare and so on.

“The topic is billionaires!”

CEO of Nike is a billionaire.

“Oh I don’t wear those and I’m talking about other billionaires, just Trump and Musk!”

CEO of Nike has 25 times the wealth of Trump.

“but Truuuuump paid $750 in taxes”

cause he is a bankrupt failed businessman, remember? The law allows you to write off losses.

“no he’s not! Yes he is!” Explodes due to excessive flip flopping

Musk only owns 21% of Telsa's stock.

Of a 1 trillion dollar+ valuation company.

zichi,

The rich already pay the vast bulk of taxes in the US.*

Fact checks have disproved that so many times.

Where did you manage to give yourself that idea?

Since 2001, the share of federal income taxes paid by the top 1 percent increased from 33.2 percent to a new high of 40.1 percent in 2018.

In 2018, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97.1 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 2.9 percent.

The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (40.1 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (28.6 percent).

https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income-tax-data/

Anyone who talks about “fair share” without defining what they mean, never seems to have a clue what they are talking about.

The top US 1% paying 40% sure seems fair to me, and that would seem to be higher than the glorious days of the greatest president, Obama

 He continues to borrow money aginst his stock which avoids paying higher tax rates.

is this illegal or against any tax law?

By the way, you do know that Dem Nancy Pelosi and her husband just doubled their 1.5 million dollar investment in Tesla from a few months ago, right?

Criticize in public but thank in private, I guess. It used to be that millionaires were "rich", but too many Dem politicians became millionaires, socialist Sanders has three houses now.

so now Billionaires are the boogeyman. But just ones whose politics are unclear.....Jay Z and Beyonce will be fine.

Steve Jobs did the same. Took $1 in income and the rest in stocks. Avoid paying income taxes. Steve Jobs died 10 years ago.

But he built the company

Keeping more of your income to buy luxury goods does not mean they are paying a fair share of the taxes.

If you are rich you are.

Even if the super-rich paid most of their income at the income rate of 37% they would still have plenty of cash to maintain their lives.

Who are you say how much a person should have or shouldn’t.

Many businesses also received handouts including the Trump business.

We are not talking about Trump, he’s not the President and he’s not the one that implemented these crazy tax rules.

America spends more on defense

Not enough, even Gen. Miley voiced that deep and growing concern.

You are now a structural engineer?

No, but I know what Congress didn’t pass.

All taxpayers see the benefits in their daily lives. The military, the police, the roads, education for their children. All governments including Biden can do 100% of what it wants.

But not in the way this administration is talking about increasing them, this is why the Dems are politically in trouble.

Biden is not proposing any tax increase for people earning less than $500,000.

Not one person believes that. Even the Washington Post gave him 4 Pinocchio’s

When you need a LONG post to justify not taxing the wealthiest members of society in order to pay for the neediest as well as to make needed investments in infrastructure without taxing the middle and the poor, you're losing the argument.

A winning argument should be short and effective.

"They don't pay as much as they should. They utilize government subsidies. They can afford it."

See? Something like that.

Steve Job's wife is a billionaire too. Criticize him and how he made his money on one hand, but happily take his money for your leftist causes on the other? that smells funny.

Laurene Powell Jobs donates $3.5 billion to climate change group. Philanthropist Laurene Powell Jobs, the widow of Apple founder Steve Jobs, will invest $3.5 billion over the next 10 years to address the climate crisis

When they stop receiving taxpayer money 

Hello, it’s the government that is giving out corporate welfare.

Corporate welfare should be abolished, but that’s the opposite of what the US administration has been proposing.

I don’t get it.

Government says “come and get it!”, so companies go and get it, then when they do, big government types say “shame on companies for coming and getting it”.

When you need a LONG post to justify not taxing the wealthiest members of society

Facts are as above that the top 1% alone in the US pays 40% of the taxes, so what on earth are you even talking about?

Elon Musk: Beware! If they can tax a billionaire like me, they can tax you regular people too!

Regular People: We’ve been paying our taxes this whole time, bro.

Who are you say how much a person should have or shouldn’t.

That's an argument that works both ways.

Who are you to say that those on low incomes should pay proportionally way more in taxes than the super-rich?

*“My plan,” the SpaceX founder tweeted Thursday about his fortune,* "is to use the money to get humanity to Mars and preserve the light of consciousness.

This little bit of humanity has no interest in and no intention of ever going to Mars, and my consciousness is doing fine without Elon and his pals ever leaving Earth's atmosphere. Of course he's free to waste his money on whatever he sees fit - after he's paid his fair share of taxes to support the infrastructure that allows his workers to earn his billions for him.

“We can get up and go somewhere else.”

I thought the Land of the Free taxed its citizens wherever they went?

Your comment falls under what Samuel Clemmons called "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics."

As a percentage of their own income (which is all that really matters) Billionaires are massively under-taxed.

But yeah, that is totally a winning argument for your side. Keep making that one.

@Peter Neil

Don't just vote me down. Tell us what your problem is with a flat 10% tax.

Come on. Do it.

I think you should take something for your swelling.

The reason is simple : it is unfair.

There is some territorial average optimum amount of money household have to get in order to live a comfortable and secure life depending of its composition. That should be the center for tax level, the farther you get from it the higher the difference in tax level. Taxing at the same level a single house family with no special feature regardless of them earning 100.000, 400.000, 700.000 or 1.000.000yen a month is not fair. So tax are progressive and digressive.

The Revolving Door sitcom.

FAIR SHARE OF TAXES: No billionaire spared.

glad you are now aboard the ALL billionaires (not just Musk and Trump) train.

Now what is "fair share" actually? in a number? 50%? 75% 90%?

She is worth about $21 billion. Paid $2.5 billion in state and federal taxes between 2012 and 2020.

ok so thats her fair share? about 12% over 8 years.

I pay more than that.

Where did you manage to give yourself that idea?

Since 2001, the share of federal income taxes paid by the top 1 percent increased from 33.2 percent to a new high of 40.1 percent in 2018.

In 2018, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97.1 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 2.9 percent.

The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (40.1 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (28.6 percent).

https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income-tax-data/

Anyone who talks about “fair share” without defining what they mean, never seems to have a clue what they are talking about.

The top US 1% paying 40% sure seems fair to me, and that would seem to be higher than the glorious days of the greatest president, Obama

Its important to note that what you are describing is the share of Federal Income Tax, not the total tax burden. Most other taxes are more regressive than Federal income tax in the US, so the top 1% have been estimated to pay about 24% of total taxes overall, not 40%. That share is only slightly higher than their share of overall income.

Now what is "fair share" actually? in a number? 50%? 75% 90%?

I'm not sure what the optimal tax rate would be, but it certainly isn't fair that Warren Buffett pays a lower tax rate than his secretary.

and Warren Buffett keeps talking but I dont see him writing any checks to the US Treasury for any extra than he has to.

This misses the point entirely. Taxation should be a mandatory part of living in society, not an option to be overlooked whenever they please.

Taxes paid as a percentage of TOTAL taxes are irrelevant. The key point is what percentage an individual pays as a percentage of HIS/HER INCOME when considered at an effective rate.

This is all that matters when it comes to taxation in order to compare individuals of differing incomes on an apples-to-apples basis to assess "fairness." (Sidebar: This is the kind of thing that is covered during the first semester during introductory financial accounting of any reputable MBA program. I will withhold any other commentary for the present.)

As a percentage of their income on an effective rate basis, The Billionaire class are massively under-taxed: a point I might add was pointed out by none other than the Oracle of Omaha - Warren Buffet, who noted that his secretary pays a much higher percentage of her income in taxes than he does, and also that it's not fair.

So, "We astoundingly rich are already taxed enough!" Um, the data would seem say pretty clearly otherwise.

"We will leave!" Ok, don't let the door hit you in the behind. But don't reside here, maintain any vacation homes here, have any businesses of any kind (including subsidiaries) here, or expect the US govt to lift a finger to protect your interests. Good luck getting the same backing from Lichtenstein or where ever you land.

"This will make people leave the Democratic party in droves!" Really? Let's see how people feel about that when they are getting tangible benefits without increases in THEIR taxes or the national debt. I will take that wager.

zichi,

It’s a figure based on data from the US IRS….

And even if you demand that the 1% pay 24%, that is still 24 times their proportional share.

Is 24 times their proportionate share not “fair”?

Most other taxes are more regressive 

So what? Taxes are part of a system, the point of taxes is to get revenue, and the reason for that is to redistribute it to the needy - it makes no sense to talk about one cog of the overall system and complain that it is regressive.

That's an argument that works both ways.

Not really. Because the rich are the ones that’s keeping these people and the organizations that support the,

*This little bit of humanity has no interest in and no intention of ever going to Mars, and my consciousness is doing fine without Elon and his pals ever leaving Earth's atmosphere. Of course he's free to waste his money on whatever he sees fit - after he's paid his fair share of taxes to support the infrastructure that allows his workers to earn his billions for him.*

We will always have the poor, taking money from the rich won’t solve anything. Never has and never will.

I thought the Land of the Free taxed its citizens wherever they went?

And you are seeing the people rejecting it.

Taxation should be a mandatory part of living in society, not an option to be overlooked whenever they please.

Therefore, introduce a consumption tax and adjust income tax brackets.

Thats how you tax rich people.

but it certainly isn't fair that Warren Buffett pays a lower tax rate than his secretary.

sounds like we should start with Warren Buffett then? Cant Buffett fix that himself by writing a check to the US Treasury? then this wouldnt be true anymore.

Biden kept whispering last night in that creepy voice "pay your fair share", over and over.

Ok, sure. What is our "fair share" so that we can pay it?

None of you know. So its just a way to criticize that we dont do it until the end of time.

(Wo)Man up and give a number.

also based on the math, Forbes found that this means "Buffett's secretary" is paid between $200,000 to $500,000 per year. not really an accurate representation of a "secretary" wage is it?

Yes, he did. For the past 10 years, it has been Tim Cook

But you will see the photo of Jobs, there you go.

The poor pay more tax per dollar than any super-rich.

And the rich keep the nations afloat.

This is an opinion forum so basically anyone on it.

Ok

He's not the president

Then focus on the current one that is implementing the policies more people are rejecting.

Overspending on the military does not make America any safer.

Yes, it does if you have the proper gear and proper military leadership that is ready and willing to use it and is backed by a President that will use anything at his disposal to keep the nation safe.

They are still there and in control.

Until next year. I think even Pelosi sees the writing on the wall, her retirement is coming.

Which taxes have been increased?

So you are now a supporter of the new BLM?

On the average Americans yes and no one said anything about that group.

And even if you demand that the 1% pay 24%, that is still 24 times their proportional share.

Is 24 times their proportionate share not “fair”?

Actually what that means is that a group of people who earned about 21% of total income paid about 24% of total taxes, so they are only paying about 1.2 times their proportional share, not 24 times.

The whole idea of an envy tax is silly. First of all, the notion that rich people didn't "earn" their money is wrong. The vast majority of millionaires did not inherit their wealth- they earned it. Same with the multimilliionaire and even billionaire class. Up to that level, nearly 60% did it on their own. Less than 10% inherited it. So they are not a network of lazy bourgeoisie.

One posted did say something true about 'inheritance' though. He/she stated that it matters "who your daddy is". Actually, it really matters "WHERE your daddy is". Having two parents in the home is one of the greatest predictors of financial success. There are exceptions of course (Bezos for one) but intact families create wealth.

during introductory financial accounting of any reputable MBA program. 

was there a thing called "numbers" that were used for financial calculations? Im sure it wasnt "fairness x equality =equity and diversity".

sounds like you took an English class when all you can say is "fairness" and other vague wording when the results demands a numerical calculation. Does "fairness" have a number that can be calculated?

"hey how much profit did our company make it Q1?" words such as "some" or "enough" or "a reasonable amount" are not used. its a number.

what is the number of a "fair share" for billionaires, "Mister I have an MBA"?

It is not about over-taxing the rich. It is about getting them to pay a fair share

They already do. My dad used to tell me, there’s no way he would ever allow the government to take any of his heart and money and his people need and want money and without the government, then the government should do a better job at creating job and economic opportunities so that people can climb up from the ladder and grow into economic prosperity, and I truly believe that.

ok, fine. lets do "fairness". How about the people who pay more taxes get more votes?

people who pay no tax cant vote. If I pay 25 times the tax of someone else I get 25 votes to their 1.

Its not like the guy who donates the cost of the basketball net gets the gym named after him, right?

People who pay the most taxes get the most say in how they are spent by getting more votes to elect the people trying to spend it. its not "fair" if I have to pay disproportionate amount of taxes to a government that then takes my money and spends it against my values.

sounds like we should start with Warren Buffett then? Cant Buffett fix that himself by writing a check to the US Treasury? then this wouldnt be true anymore.

I've already explained this already. Taxes shouldn't be optional, that completely changes how they are perceived.

also based on the math, Forbes found that this means "Buffett's secretary" is paid between $200,000 to $500,000 per year. not really an accurate representation of a "secretary" wage is it?

So what? This isn't a point. Buffett should pay more in taxes than his secretary whether they're making $500,000 or $50,000.

Therefore, introduce a consumption tax and adjust income tax brackets.

You mean so poor pay even more in taxes? No thanks.