11, including child, 3, shot in Chicago park

Here we go again.

Cue the predictable 'so much for Chicago's gun control laws' nonsense from the firearms fetishists.

America, your children deserve better than this.

I'd like to thank those people for taking the freedom bullets that protect guns in this country.

It is time to spend more money on schools and youth programs rather than on the prison system.

“They’ve been coming round here looking for people to shoot every night, just gang-banging stuff. It’s what they do.”

... where were the cops? I mean if these people come around every night then surely they should have been stopped at some point?

Cue the predictable 'so much for Chicago's gun control laws' nonsense from the firearms fetishists.

No, it's not nonsense. Chicago has the strictest gun-control in the U.S. and some of the worst gun crime. It's attitudes like yours that sweep this under the table because it doesn't fit with your "All Guns Are Evil" philosophy. Gun control doesn't really work, because it only controls the legal guns. These crimes are committed with illegal guns.

The Sandy Hook / Aurora crazy-white-guy-with-legal-gun crimes that happen extremely rarely and the obligatory stupid knee-jerk over-reactions to them in regards to gun control, have ZERO effect on stuff like this. They do NOTHING.

In New York, if you are a legal gun owner you are only allowed to have 7 round mags (and 1 in the chamber). How many criminals are going to follow that rule? How many crazy-white-guys-with-legal-guns are going to follow that law?

Gun control laws in the U.S. are only put in place to appease the populace who just don't get the big picture.

Legal gun owners don't act like this:

“They’ve been coming round here looking for people to shoot every night, just gang-banging stuff. It’s what they do.”

So the gun control laws are pointless and only there so politicians can say "We're making a stand against gun crime!" when they aren't really. They're just ignoring it and letting the young black males of the U.S. kill each other. (And yes, most gun crime in the U.S. is by young, black, males with illegal handguns; not crazy white losers with AR15's).

Make possession of an illegal gun an automatic 25 year jail term with no parole.

Probie, hear! Hear! Thugs don't give a rip about ANY laws.

Chicago has the strictest gun-control in the U.S.

What exactly does that mean? Does it involve customs control at the state boundary, preventing firearms etc., being brought in from outside, where guns are more readily available? If there is no such restriction, then the term 'strictest gun-control' is meaningless.

If the 'strict' gun-control laws are full of holes, they are indeed, as you say, pointless.

I just had a look at 'Gun laws in Illinois' on Wikipedia. It says police must issue a Firearm Owner's ID card to anyone who wants one, so long as they meet a few very very basic conditions, like not having been convicted of a felony or act of domestic violence or not having been a patient in a mental institution within the last 5 years (duh). I can't see any mention of any obligation for a legal firearm to be kept safely under lock and key, except where a young person is present. State law says a stolen gun must be reported 'within 72 hours' - plenty of time for a thief to do irreparable damage.

If those are the 'strictest laws in the country', they're a joke.

remember, it's not the guns, it's the people who use them (which seems to be quite frequently in America)...

I thought guns were ILLEGAL to own in Chicago...how could THIS happen ?

Strange that every time one of their guns is involved in a massacre we seem to get a lecture from gun supporters.

Probie, you talk about ineffective gun laws when there's a massive lobbying group who works tirelessly to remove any restriction to gun ownership and acquisition. Do you support them?

Because it goes like this: STEP 1: Tell the world you agree to background checks. STEP 2: Put a hole in the law. STEP 3: Say that the police aren't effectively enforcing the law. STEP 4: Tell us that closing the hole wouldn't do anything anyway. STEP 5: Vote down the legislation to close the loophole since having it becomes a better option than closing it.....somehow.

We can't even create a registry because the threat of the US turning into Nazi Germany is apparently greater than the possible benefits of tracking guns. Or something like that. You're talking about the type of people who go to a Starbucks so they can meet others who are carrying guns.

How can the police enforce a law saying convicts and the insane can't carry guns when they can just move in or hang around people who have them and get easy access? Why are there no laws about safe storage when kids are around? Gun supporters in Tucson actually set up a table next to a police buy-back program and offered higher prices to people turning guns in. What were they trying to prove? That a tiny spec of guns being removed from the street upset them so much that they spent money getting them out of police hands? The same police that are obviously just incompetent in terms of keeping guns out of the wrong hands.

Gun supporters say that the solution to gun problems is more guns, that we need better enforcement of laws they water down, that adjustments to the law wouldn't change enough to make it worth the time, and we should be reducing the number of gun laws, not increasing them.

WA4TKGSep. 20, 2013 - 05:14PM JST I thought guns were ILLEGAL to own in Chicago...how could THIS happen ?

The people who did this are criminals who seem to think that a fun night out involves killing some little kids... I doubt that they CARE what the law says or that they bothered to apply for a gun license anywhere.

The issue here is, "Where were the police?". The issue isn't where the guns came from, America is awash in guns, they probably just waited outside of the nearest Walmart and waited until a granny came out carrying a basket full of assault rifle ammunition, then clubbed her over the head and got all the guns they needed.

"they probably just waited outside of the nearest Walmart and waited until a granny came out carrying a basket full of assault rifle ammunition"

Wow, you've just dumbed down the opposition rhetoric to NRA levels there, I'm impressed.

Just remove guns from every single person in America outside of the emergency services and armed forces... stop and search if you have to. Draconian measures are needed to protect your citizens, America... or you will return to the days of the Wild West... or worse.

Surprise surprise. You reap what you sew.

@Thunderbird

Agree with your sentiments, but not about the wild west. It's a sad but true fact that homicide rates were lower and gun control laws much stricter in frontier towns than they are now. Possesion within city limits was illegal, except for law enforcers. Anyone entering a town was required to drop their weapon off at the sherrif's office and get a receipt.

Civilised times, long gone....

The dreadlocks guys in the gray sedan are celebrating now. Their friends are worshiping them now.

What is the problem here? It's a badge of honor to have served prison time!

Removing all guns is not likely. Even if it were the law of the land honorable citizens like these gentlemen in the gray sedan would still have them.

@Probie,

Legal gun owners don't act like this

Let's see how upstanding, fun-loving, law-abiding gun owners behave, according to some pesky medics:

To determine whether firearm ownership and specific firearm-related behaviours are associated with alcohol-related risk behaviours, the author conducted a cross-sectional study using Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System data for eight states in the USA from 1996 to 1997 (the most recent data available).

Altogether, 15 474 respondents provided information on firearm exposure.

After adjustment for demographics and state of residence, firearm owners were more likely than those with no firearms at home to have ≥5 drinks on one occasion (OR 1.32; 95% CI 1.16 to 1.50), to drink and drive (OR 1.79; 95% CI 1.34 to 2.39) and to have ≥60 drinks per month (OR 1.45; 95% CI 1.14 to 1.83).

Heavy alcohol use was most common among firearm owners who also engaged in behaviours such as carrying a firearm for protection against other people and keeping a firearm at home that was both loaded and not locked away.

The author concludes that firearm ownership and specific firearm-related behaviours are associated with alcohol-related risk behaviours.

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/early/2011/06/13/ip.2010.031443.abstract

I thought guns were ILLEGAL to own in Chicago.

Read the description of the 'strict' gun-control laws set out in Wiki. It is NOT illegal to own a gun at all, in fact the police must issue a gun-owner ID card to anyone who wants one, just so long as they're not a felon or a madman. Concealed carry is OK so long as it's not on public transport, in a bar or restaurant that serves alcohol, a public gathering or public facility or private property where the owner has put up a sign saying concealed carry is not OK. These are the strictest gun control laws in America.. They're soft and ludicrous to the point of insanity. I think they must have been written by the nra.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Illinois

@Mark G

Removing all guns is not likely. Even if it were the law of the land honorable citizens like these gentlemen in the gray sedan would still have them.

That's why I said stop and search is needed to remove all guns from society, it may cause a few feathers to be ruffled, but what's better... street massacres or gangsters without their guns?

Actually, the crime rate overall AND the murder rate are both lower than they have been in a long time. This in spite of increasing gun ownership. The only thing that is "up" is the hysterical coverage of crime by the 24 hour media machine desperate to fill in their empty time slots.

a common fallacy of people who think gun control legislation are going to make the criminal element suddenly think, "Oh wow. I have a gun. I'm breaking the Law. I'll get in trouble! I should give it up!" Really need to have a class in Aristotelian Logic before they try to 'help'.

Vast Right-Wing ConspiratorSEP. 20, 2013 - 07:54PM JST Actually, the crime rate overall AND the murder rate are both lower than they have been in a long time.

What about spree killings?

@Vast Right-Wing Conspirator

Actually, the crime rate overall AND the murder rate are both lower than they have been in a long time.

Yes, 11,000 gun homicides per year is quite an acceptable level of violence. As you said on another thread, most of the statistics are young black men anyway.

What's all the fuss about, huh?

It's been, what... three days since the last gun massacre? Paint me surprised. But hey, to be fair, if the perpetrator had been using a hello kitty stuffed animal he could have accomplished the same thing given the intent, no? There's NO WAY this has anything to do with guns!

Sadly, the people that argue this kind of logic forget that the logic is quite a bit different for them -- that guns are necessary to be protected from... guns. Countries with no gun problems know you do not 'need' to own one for protection. The US will never learn.

Anyone who listens the the hugely popular podcast "This American Life" may remember a poignant recent two part episode called "Harper High School" . 29 Harper students were shot in 2012. 29.

Well this is the exact same neighborhood that Harper high school is in. After listening to those two podcasts about that area in Chicago, I can empathize with those who live there a lot more than before.

I highly recommend you listen to that podcast. Here is the link.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/487/harper-high-school-part-one

In a lot of ways, I think the US is beyond conventional gun control arguments. Nearly 50% of households have a firearm. Those guns aren't going away, unless you support actually confiscating them. Given the reality that guns are, and will continue to be, available, what is the answer?

Madverts, I'm not sure about spree killings, and they really don't matter in the big picture. They are horrible, and make the news, but are statistically insignificant. Ditto murders committed with "assault weapons". They are only used in something like 2% of homicides, yet people continue to freak out about them.

I guess this proves the point that gun control won't work in America because you need the majority of a nation's people to actually have a certain amount of decent respect for others' lives, and a natural feeling of selflessness and self-sacrifice. Call it a pipe dream, but the U.S. is beyond repair.

The NRA are way too strong, gun control is a pipe dream. NRA with their donation, lobbying and lying.

NRA and lobbying and lying. - Our Excellent Adventures I have no problem with lobbying but I do have a problem with organizations, as part of their lobbying donating money to a political campaign. I know, some how this is ... www.ourexcellentadventures.com/2013/02/13/nra-and-lobbying-and-lying

..."assault weapons". They are only used in something like 2% of homicides, yet people continue to freak out about them.

Vast, we're talking about people's lives, not high scores on a console game.

Imagine you experience the miracle of childbirth. The excitement of the first smile. Crawling for the first time. Graduating through diaper sizes. See her maneuvering her way upright around the coffee table, and one day letting go, taking her first wobbly steps before falling delighted on her big, diapered rear end.

And so on, you have this beautiful adventure that you want to celebrate from the rooftops, watching this little miracle who looks a lot like you: your eyes, your hair color, growing from a little princess into a young woman with the world as her oyster. Then one day a kid with a gun who never knew love takes her life.

Multiply that heartbreak by two hundred for the assault weapons victims who'll die this year, and you might understand why people "freak out about them".

Find love, my friend.

Nearly 50% of households have a firearm. Those guns aren't going away, unless you support actually confiscating them.

The only difficult is to change the gun laws, not to apply the change. Mentally sane people would voluntarily hand over their guns if the law was changed. Hunters and security staff would certainly accept to store out of their houses when not on duty, just like they have no problem with storing their money in banks (how many keep gold at home ?), it's just a habit to take.

Kennytheking,

Most people in America actually do have decent respect for others' lives, and a natural feeling of selflessness and self-sacrifice. Given the opportunity, of course.

It is time to spend more money on schools and youth programs rather than on the prison system.

Agreed, the state of Minnesota, more specifically the city of Minneapolis started doing that and it has had a major impact on reducing youth crime rates.

... where were the cops? I mean if these people come around every night then surely they should have been stopped at some point?

Were the cops aware of this behavior in the first place? Did anyone tell the police that they were doing this?

Chicago doesn't actually have that many cops for the size of its city. New York City for example I read has twice as many cops per capita as Chcago

Yes, 11,000 gun homicides per year is quite an acceptable level of violence. As you said on another thread, most of the statistics are young black men anyway.

He or she is not saying that it is acceptable level of violence, what he or she is saying is that the violence is decreasing and that is what is most important because realistically no law that you pass is going to cause that to just drop to 1,000 within a year or two years, etc.

You have to be realistic. Look at New York City, in the early 90's it had over 2,000 homicides, today it is now below 500, it took them nearly 20 years to achieve that.

Probie: You are completely ignoring.the fact that most gun crime is committed by people with illegal guns.

And you're completely ignoring the fact that loopholes, watered down laws, and voting down common sense legislation might, just might, have an impact on our ability stop the flow of illegal guns. Complete disconnect there.

Saul: a common fallacy of people who think gun control legislation are going to make the criminal element suddenly think, "Oh wow. I have a gun. I'm breaking the Law. I'll get in trouble! I should give it up!" Really need to have a class in Aristotelian Logic before they try to 'help'.

I think you'll find that if you apply that logic to most laws then you'd come to the same conclusion that most laws are useless. So let's throw them out? Let's give a collective shrug and walk away from the problem? Criminals are criminals because they ignore the law and they aren't going away anytime soon. Why should that stop us from passing laws related to safe storage of guns around children? Because gang bangers won't do it?

Just another day in Chicago-Liberal Land.

" And you're completely ignoring the fact that loopholes, watered down laws, and voting down common sense legislation might, just might, have an impact on our ability stop the flow of illegal guns. Complete disconnect there."

In a word : Hogwash. Look at how "successful " the War On Drugs has been over the past four+ decades. The FEDERAL ban on various substances has failed magnificently. Do you actually think even a Federal ban on private firearms would prevent the large criminal culture from obtaining firearms? Don't delude yourself. Four+ DECADES of drug-running is all the evidence needed. Is Europe drug-free? No. Are there firearms? You bet. Though I do agree firearms should NOT be available to minors without direct parental supervision.

I grew up with rifles, shotguns, and pistols in the house, ALWAYS under lock and key, and learned the safety rules at an early age. I wouldn't ever point one in the direction of a person unless absolutely necessary.

Please tell me where I've lobbied for a ban on guns.

I grew up with rifles, shotguns, and pistols in the house, ALWAYS under lock and key, and learned the safety rules at an early age.

Then I applaud your family. But I want some way to force people to be as responsible with their guns as you are. Make responsibility a requirement, not a choice. You keep your guns, fewer accidents occur (especially with kids), and it's a win-win.

Criminals with illegal guns - that's it in Chicago. Go after the dealers, send in the national guard, and clean up the city. It is appalling the Americans would rather argue over their party stance rather than save their inner cities. Politicians don't care about Chicago, Detroit, etc... They would rather send all their jobs and money overseas. Clean up the mess at home.