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17-year-old gunman kills 15 in Germany before taking own life

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This sholdn't have happened, either. < :-)

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My best friend happens to be German and you wouldn't find a more anti-gun person anywhere. This story is shocking and the victims and their families certainly have my sympathy.

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Yo Mods....why did you pull my post? I just used the same language another poster did on another gun shooting thread but just changed "America" to "Germany."

I'm sooooo confused as to why my post got deleted but his didn't.

Moderator: All you were doing was parroting another poster on another thread. Why don't you post your opinion on this particular topic? That's what the discussion board is for.

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This is a major tragedy, and fortunately one that happens rarely in Europe. Of course, even 'rarely' is too often.

"Steinhaeuser, who had been expelled for forging a doctor’s note, was a gun club member licensed to own weapons. The attack led Germany to raise the age for owning recreational firearms from 18 to 21."

Well, it's nice to see that some countries quickly react and change laws to make it more difficult to obtain firearms. In this case that didn't help, and as others have posted on other threads, there will always be those who want guns and can get them. This is not, however, any kind of 'proof', as I've no doubt some will try to use it, that guns are a good thing and a person should reserve the right to have them at home and/or on their person. On the contrary, this is rock solid proof that guns are good for nothing at all except murder.

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USARonin: "Maybe you should enjoy one or several, SuperLib... if your government hasn't taken that option from you."

Hopefully the US government will finally take some action on what happened there and indeed 'take away' the guns. They are unnecessary, and this act is proof as well.

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Two stories in two days from two different countries. In common? A rampaging indivual. High number of innocent people killed. Suicide by the individual attacker. And the use of firearms to carry out the scale of the attack.

Ban Guns people! Ban them! Get them out of the hands of individuals. Get them off our streets. We don't need guns. No private person needs a gun. They kill far too many people through accidents, incompetence of violence within family groups. They do not protect us, they do no protect those of you with the illusion that guns offer protection. They kill, the maim and they horrify us. Ban Guns.

With regard to some people's love for weapons, it seems human evolution has stopped. Evolve people and move on to a society where guns are abscent, illegal and shameful as they should be.

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TKOinD2: They do not protect us.

Actually guns or any lethal weapon in the hands of lawful citizens prevent more crime than they commit.

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Latest stories are saying that the school shooting vicitms are almost entirely female, and that the gunman targeted them with dilberate accuracy, shooting most of them in the head.

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Instead of pushing gun ownership, maybe you should be pushing better moral education and child-raising techniques?

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Aaaaaaaand there we go. Three in one week. Aren't guns great!!

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Actually guns or any lethal weapon in the hands of lawful citizens prevent more crime than they commit.

There is absolutely no research or statistical data to back this claim up whatsoever. Simply repeating the party-line of the NRA again and again doesn't magically make it true.

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Guns in the hands of lawful citizens do not prevent crimes. I can't think of one case reported in the news where someone averted a crime by brandishing a gun. In this case in Germany or at Columbine or Virginia Tech, would we really want teachers and students carrying guns? I think not. More people would get killed in the crossfire as panic erupted. You wouldn't know who the shooter was and who wasn't.

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Actually guns or any lethal weapon in the hands of lawful citizens prevent more crime than they commit.

...and I suppose you would prove this by looking at the U.S.A.'s statistics on gun crime, would you?

preposterous

Moderator: Readers, posts that do not focus on the shooting rampage in Germany will be removed. For discussion on the U.S., please go to the Alabama thread.

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Wow, pro gun vs anti gun. Is this the topic? Sad how this all happened. Peaceful place no longer peaceful and it will just get worse. Hopefully some of the kids did not even realize they were shot and hopefully they were able just to pass without the pain. I feel bad for the parents who were not able to say goodbye. I feel bad for the teachers who may have made a positive impact on other students. We do not know what drove this kid to madness, but hopefully, all these children and the other people killed will find happiness on the other side, other life or whatever you believe.

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He loved Beretta gun and wanted to shoot something. There were something he does not like in front of him. He just shot bunch of friends there. He needed really something before shooting.

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Damn...seems like parents need to hug their kids more. More involvement with children and acts like this will be decreased.

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Ktwatt: Your conspiracy theroies are more bizzare by bthe week. He was obviously a mental, simple as that.

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Very unfortunate, so much potential gone so quickly.

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kwatt: are you ok buddy? Your control over the English language suprises me. Is that a conspiracy theory or what are you trying to say?

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Don't know why he suicided. I mean Germany, he'd have been out in 20 years, 30 at the outside. No better place to commit mass murder then the EU.

Very sad any way you look at it.

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Hmmmm... Lets see... I own a Yugoslavian SKS (With Bayonet & Grenade Launcher) A Chinese SKS, A Winchester 30~30 Rifle, A 410 Gauge, A 16 Gauge, A 12 Gauge, A 22 Rifle, and A Colt 45.

Never had any problems with them inadvertently going off. Never had any problems with crime. Never had any issues with wanting to kill a shitload of people regardless of what my circumstances were/are.

I grew up with guns in my home, as did my father, and his father before him, as well as his father before him going back many generations. We were raised to respect guns and use them wisely. My daughters know how to use them and they have been raised to be safe with them. They also have been raised in many self defense measures including...yes...GUNS! I don't know...

I guess I would rather have a gun and not need it... Than to not have one and need it.

Know what I mean jellybeans???

~LW~

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Actually guns or any lethal weapon in the hands of lawful citizens prevent more crime than they commit.

Of course they do. Lawful citizens don't commit crime, that is why they are called lawful citizens. People who use a gun to commit a crime are called "criminals".

"Hand guns are made for killing, Ain't no good for nothing else." Lynyrd Skynryd, song is Saturday Night Special. Truer lyrics never written.

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A German gun permit (which is really difficult to get) doesn't allow you to use guns for self-defense. You may take it back and forth from home to the local shooting clubs, but the use of guns outside the shooting ranges and hunting areas or for any other purpose including self-defense is illegal. Even with a gun permit you are not allowed to move freely around with a gun or shoot people threatening you. For the use of guns for self-defense you need a different permit which is only given to professionals - police and security personal.

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,612767,00.html (sorry German only)

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I'd like to know how this kid got so obsessed with killing. I like to pose a question which I hope doesn't get taken out of context. But I noticed my wife's nephew and my own nephews back home seem to be at an age where chasing girls, trying to get high and all that stuff don't seem too attractive. Instead, they sit back and play PS games such as GTA which in my opinion is awful.

Do any of you think this killing and the previous killing in Germany, as they are a highly tech place and gaming is high, has anything to do with the content of games, movies, and music?

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lets just all click our heals and wish guns away. if that doesn't work, call in the Gestapo.

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call in the Gestapo" YOu do know that is who took the Germans' guns away, right?

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What the heck is our world coming to? There is just way too many stories like this ...

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...guns or any lethal weapon in the hands of lawful citizens prevent more crime than they commit.

Exactly. If Germans had the same right of self defense, this story may have ended very differently. Lives could have been saved.

For the use of guns for self-defense you need a different permit which is only given to professionals - police and security personal.

It is inherently immoral for any govt to take away the right of self defense. Why should the govt privilege some and damn others? How wonderfully totalitarian minded! Preventing crime is a very good reason to own a gun. It may also save your own life, your family or country. Only gun people understand this. The ignorantly ranting weak-minded snob class will never get this.

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GJDailleult: "Of course they do. Lawful citizens don't commit crime, that is why they are called lawful citizens. People who use a gun to commit a crime are called "criminals"."

One of the best posts on the topic so far (and the wider topic of guns).

VOR: "lets just all click our heals and wish guns away."

Better yet, let's do something to increase gun control and make laws for obtaining them stricter world-wide, instead of entertaining the idea that we can or should do nothing.

This is indeed a sad incident, and my condolences to the victims and their families.

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30061015: "Exactly. If Germans had the same right of self defense, this story may have ended very differently. Lives could have been saved."

You're bang on, so to speak -- if everyone pulled out guns to try and stop this guy, they might all start shooting each other as perceived threats, might accidentally shoot each other in a panic, or shoot themselves. Again, you're bang on... the potential for even more bloodshed from others brandishing weapons would have been a lot higher.

We have no statistics on how 'crime could be prevented' by people brandishing guns "for defense", fortunately. Instead we have this statistic of what happens when a person wields a gun, as we have stats for what happens when a person wielded a gun (or two, three, etc.) in Alabama, etc. In other words, there are at least three cases this week alone in only a couple of countries where having guns has led to disaster. Not surprising at all where two of those took place; completely shocking where this one did -- and the reasons is because it is expected in the former cases, not the latter (due to gun laws being stricter).

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If Germans had the same right of self defense, this story may have ended very differently.

You mean if those little kiddies had had guns in their hands instead of pencils?

I note that VOR still hasn't explained how he protects himself against other self-appointed defenders of the public safety when he pulls out his conceal-carry permitted gun, or how he knows which are the nutters and which the lawful citizens exercising their right of self-defence.

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No one knows exactly what happend to the 17 year old man. But he got a gun somehow not easily and used it to shoot people maybe his friends at school there. after all no one could stop him. He might have been mixed up with battle games, violence movies, etc that he probably loved/liked a lot. Same kinds of incidents happen again anywhere if guns are there.

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Preventing crime is a very good reason to own a gun. It may also save your own life, your family or country.

According to your logic all the security measures before you board a plane are BS. It would be much safer then to give away free guns before you fly, so that everybody can prevent possible crimes. How do you personally feel on an airplane these days? Do you agree that you aren't allowed any weapon on a plane and do you feel safer, or maybe not?

German gun laws are so strict, because the vast majority of Germans want it that way.

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smitty i understand where you are coming from. if there are no guns then no one will be tragically killed by them. i get it. the part i don't get is what makes people such as yourself think this pipedream can be achieved. If America, Russia, China, Israel, Hungary, Czech Republic, Israel and any other country that manufacturers firearms does not sign up and if the militaries of the world, private gun owners and terrorist do not completely disarm then we live in a world that is no safer. I'm all for seeing an end to these senseless killings but your fear of guns is seriously misplaced. Guns are here to stay. They are part of the human condition. The government forcefully removing weapons from private citizens or preventing them from obtaining weapons is only going to get more people killed. Don't believe me, look at a number of countries or American cities with draconian gun laws and watch how the crime rate climbed. If the government can guarantee my safety, then I'd be willing to listen, but both you and i know they can't. A police state like Germany is proof of that.

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VOR: Guns are most certainly NOT part of the human condition. It's only a 'pipedream' so long as people think it is, and in fact to the contrary do more to SELL weapons and arm themselves. True, there will be criminals that still have them, as will police, and the military, but this is no reason why 'lawful' citizens should have them for defense, because they can therefore be used at any time for crime (and as was pointed out, they are perfectly lawful citizens until the minute they commit a crime. It is only AFTER the fact that kids like this are criminals).

I do think that it will be hard to get a lot of people to relinquish their guns, and FORCING them to give them up will be even tougher, but that's no reason to sigh and say it can't be helped.

"The government forcefully removing weapons from private citizens or preventing them from obtaining weapons is only going to get more people killed."

EXACTLY! And yet another reason against the 'logic' that guns are necessary for defense. They have no guns to be taken away, they cannot kill those who are taking them (and taking them for the better!).

"Don't believe me, look at a number of countries or American cities with draconian gun laws and watch how the crime rate climbed."

Another weak argument. Of COURSE the statistics of crime are going to rise, because carrying a gun becomes illegal. It's like saying crime will rise on Japanese sidewalks if laws are enforced to prohibit people from riding bikes on them. The amount of gun-related murders are not going to increase, only statistical numbers of firearm violations.

"the government can guarantee my safety, then I'd be willing to listen, but both you and i know they can't."

So as a result you are determined to make you, your neighbours, and your country less safe. They in turn are determined to do the same, and you, VOR, live in a perpetual state of fear and the belief that you need your trusty guns to protect you as a result.

I do not believe at all that you are for these kind of tragedies, and that you are genuinely sorry to hear about them, but the reality is the logic you use to defend weapons of destruction like guns is one of the reasons why these incidents occur -- the guns are made for people to use because they 'need' them, or what have you. It's a cycle that is 100% based on causation.

Moderator: Readers, please keep your comments focused on the shooting rampage in Germany.

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tigris: Thank you for your comments related to German regulations on Guns. Actually I don't think these German regulations are very strict - they are quite balanced and based on reason. If you can prove you need a gun and you can prove that you are prepared to handle it correctly and follow the laws, you will get it.

As mentioned, self-defense is not regarded as a need to get a gun. On the other hand, police is prepared to act quite fast. On the website of the German ARD (a TV program comparable to NHK) they report, that the police arrived at the school 2 minutes after calling.

For the average German citizen the law means, that he will not get a Gun. In this respect it is strict. If a person becomes a member of a shooting club, he can experience how to handle guns in a special save environment. Looking from viewpoint of shooting as a sport, the law is not strict, but reasonable.

Finally, regarding police, they are allowed to carry guns in public and they are trained to to so. And regarding "self-defense", police-men are allowed to "protect others", e.g. to protect innocent bystanders they are allowed to shoot a dangerous subject carrying a gun.

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skip the song- you should do exactly that and skip the question. How old are your nephews? Who are their friends? Who do they hang out with? Before you go on about anything else, if you do not know the answers to these questions, I think you and the rest of the family should be spending more time together.

Again, we do not even know the mental status of this kid. Did the teachers he killed ridicule him? Was he molested? What happened to him to drive him this far? I am pretty sure it wasn't HItman, GTA or whatever movie or game or he would of went after different victims.

Did he feel so dispondent that he could not even talk to his own family. I mean his sister even went to the school. He went in there with a purpose and then he started killing random people. Whether he used a gun, a bomb, knife or whatever, the results may have been the same, less or more. If Germany calls for more control on guns, good on them. Is it gonna affect anywhere else, no. So why the talk of gun control in here? If he used a bomb, what would you complain about? The materials?

Anyway, the kid went and off'd himself in the process. Not gonna get to many answers, just all hear say or however you spell it.

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And another weak little man, no hugs from mummy and daddy, probably a spoilt middle-class pimply brat who will never be remember. Another loser.

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Boboh, if I understand what happened, he's not anything anymore, nevermind a 'loser'.

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kwatt, the guy was disturbed, probably a social inept guy holding some grudge against women. If violent movies or games are the cause, all the TV broadcasts even the news should be censored. and we could only play nonviolent games. I play warhawk, Resistance 2 and Killzone 2, it doesn't make me homicidal (only angry, why are the other players all better than me!;p)

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You mean it hasn't made you homocidal 'yet'.

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dennis0bauer - I do NOT think that violent movies or games are direct cause of shootings, but all people are unconsciously learning how to shoot, how to stab, anyway how to kill people by watching and imitating of enjoyable games/movies. Majority of ordinary people surely will NOT do it but those who have some kind of psychological or mental problems may shoot, stab, or kill people under such conditions. I mean that those violent games or movies might unconsciously be a trigger of killing people.

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all people are unconsciously learning how to shoot, how to stab, anyway how to kill people by watching and imitating of enjoyable games/movies

I play violent video games, and I have no idea how to shoot or stab people, unless you mean by moving a joystick. I don't think these kids killed peoople by moving a joystick.

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Nessie - Of course joystick does not kill any people. I mean people are doing image trainings in your mind through playing violent games or watching violent movies. I think that children maybe know best parts of body when shooting person with rifle/gun or stabing person with military knife, etc, something like that.

Moderator: Readers, you are drifting off topic. Please focus your comments on the German shooting rampage.

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If Germans had the same right of self defense, this story may have ended very differently. Lives could have been saved.

Very true, but the key is ""may" and "could have" instead of would have. It is just one possible outcome out of many. The idea of having a gun for self-protection is not illogical, but it ignores the fact that it creates the risk of other things happening, and those risks are far greater than the risk of being in personal danger and not having a gun for protection. That is a statistical fact. I'll assume the kid's father kept one gun in the bedroom to protect his family from intruders. Understandable, except now he has got a dead son and 15 innocent victims, but no intruders. If people say they are aware of the risks but still want a gun because they themselves are intelligent and responsible enough to minimize them, then that is a personal decision. Myself, I am convinced that I would be able to drink and drive safely without causing an accident. However, society doesn't allow me to make that decision, because a) the stats say other people can't do it safely and b) I may be deluding myself. Guns however are treated differently.

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What's wrong with German people? Morons!

Moderator: The question is: What's wrong with you?

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This could have happened anywhere in Europe. I don't think we need to demonize Germans.

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rollanarte: Again, they aren't nearly as bad in Europe as their American cousins. You could probably fit all the EU's gun deaths for a decade into one year in the US. So, indeed, no need for you guys to demonize Germany or Germans at all -- they look a whole lot better statistically, since you brought it up, and what's more they actually change the laws when things like this happening instead of just saying, "Well... shucks... that's darn tootin' bad, but it's in our blood! Nothin' to be dun!".

This is a tragic event, and it's made even more sad when people seem to use it to try and undermine those who are in favour of getting rid of weapons or controlling them so that things like this happen less frequently or not at all. As with the kids in Columbine, if this young man could have gotten some help and support, they might have realized there's life after high school.

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Looks like gun control efforts in Europe are all for show.

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This is tragic.

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"A gun is a tool Marian no better or worse than the man behind it"

Shane 1953

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Incredibly sad. Shocking for its rarity and extremism, no run of the mill day to day drab response fits this incident.

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I guess gun control doesn't really work as it appears the kid used his father's legally registered weapons. I have a friend living in Germany that says the kids are so tightly wound that the surprise is it doesn't happen more often. Anyway peace be with the victims and the shooter can enjoy eternity in hell.

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What is it about German society that makes someone do this?

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I guess gun control doesn't really work as it appears the kid used his father's legally registered weapons.

That's a bit like saying 'I guess making people pass a driving test before they're allowed on the roads doesn't really work, as it appears people still have traffic accidents.' As long as there are vehicles on the road some accidents are going to happen; as long as you let people have guns at home, even legally registered ones, some people are going to use them to kill. Effective gun control would remove the guns, not simply register them.

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Iam from Germany, and at 1. i will say that we are very deeply shocked. Kim K. has stolen the Baretta from his Father, he hid the gun in bedroom. The Father owned at least informations 15 rifles inside the safe, except for the named Baretta with more than 200 Bullets. Also notice that Kim K. was in psychological therapy, due to depressions indication. So far the latest informations from Germany

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Where were the guns? This criminal (with mental issues) could have easily been stopped. How about owning a Taser?

Recession = the crazyness in people comes out.

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Sorry but I really don't think it's that there is no gun control that makes people use them to kill people on a whim. Germany is one example here that it's the personality. In actuality The availability of guns in the USA is high but we only have a few incidents of younguns going to school and shooting people up whereas in Germany, Canada and other countries we also have similar incidents on a lower scale because they have lower populations AND better gun control. So why does it happen in these countries? Well from my observations of Japan, The USA and Canada (I love this country btw despite the many america haters there.), There is a real tendency for the younger generations being quite unable to control their emotions. Japan has more stabbing and vehicular homicide type of incidents than gun incidents. I think it's a mental problem with the younger generations and even some of the older generations too. People go on rampages for different reasons but many involve low self esteem as proven by the tendency to suicide after the rampage is done. I suggest we stop pampering our kids like little babies for everything and be a bit tough on them so they can grow up with a backbone and some self esteem of their own and not every little thing hurt their fragile feelings making them so sensitive that they get the urge to 'get back at' the general population. Like someone said above, A gun is only a tool. So is a car, a knife a boxcutter for example. So lets not solely blame the guns. Lets put the onus on the individual more.

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This melée reminds me of "Doom" and "GTA" all rolled into one. I will expect a self-made video on YouTube soon.

Kids these days are a scary lot.

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Badsey - I do not know where your comment is coming from? Doom is about a Space Marine sent to Mars and GTA is a game about doing things for gangs and trying to get to the top of whatever? How does it relate or you just trying to get a reaction? There is no game that has been published that is about killing children. Name one.

kwatt - There is not enough visual memory to help you shoot a gun. If maybe you played a gun arcade, maybe, but they sure do not teach you about recoil and proper alignment. Even though this kid may have been mental, his dad probably taught him how to shoot at the range. As far as I know, I am sure he did not spray and pray. If you think Jack Bauer, James Bond and Jason Bourne are going to teach you to kill, you are very sadly mistaken.

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A car is a tool. Its purpose is to facilitate transportation. A knife is a tool. Its used for cutting things. A gun is a tool. Its used for killing things. It's really pretty simple.

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“If the government can guarantee my safety, then I'd be willing to listen, but both you and i know they can't. A police state like Germany is proof of that.”

Just wondering if the above comment is trying to use this incident as proof that we and our kids should pack guns for protection since the government can’t protect high school kids from their rampaging peers. Even in a crazy scenario where all the kids and their parents packed guns, a shooter would simply know to plan ahead and catch everyone off guard.

If this German kid’s dad was a gun enthusiast, how do you know he didn’t get the idea to shoot people from the gun culture that surrounded his upbringing? Just because you are responsible with guns doesn’t mean every gun owning parent is.

“Myself, I am convinced that I would be able to drink and drive safely without causing an accident. However, society doesn't allow me to make that decision, because a) the stats say other people can't do it safely and b) I may be deluding myself. Guns however are treated differently.”

Exactly, remember the question is not personal points of view or whether the individual feels more secure owning a gun, the issue is whether or not society as a whole is better off because guns are more readily available.

Because it’s pure speculation that music, movies, video games made this kid or inspires kids to go on shooting sprees, it’s obviously not reliable evidence and therefore we cannot attack the problem from the direction you keep hinting at. We can only focus on the known. Focusing on games, movies, music as the “real” problem is interesting only because the military relies on all of the above to pump up kids and sell the military as an exciting job opportunity.

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Germany should be embarrassed.

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Incredibly sad. Shocking for its rarity and extremism, no run of the mill day to day drab response fits this incident. Like in the States, you know, 'Oh, that again...' stuck on the end of the weather news.

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Gun control does not work for those who intended to maim or kill. They will find a way to get gun even with the most stringent laws. I am saddened for the families in Germany and in Alabama.

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Let me clarify my original post... A car and a knife have primary functions (in modern society) not related to killing, therefore they are useful, if not necessities. A gun on the other hand is made to kill, which is not something we need to do in our day to day lives.

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Au Contraire, MrOzD: Guns in the hands of citizenry are the counter to dictatorial governments. Guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens are the teeth of the Constitution of any country.

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OhioDonna: They will find a way to get gun even with the most stringent laws.

Which of course fails to explain why countries with actual gun controls have fewer gun murders. Notice that I did say country. You cannot gun control a place like D.C. and expect gun murders to go away. Its like an island smack in the middle of a sea of guns.

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Guns in the hands of citizenry are the counter to dictatorial governments.

Nothing like have a semi-auto rifle when faced with mines, grenades, automatic weapons, helicopter gunships, napalm, satellite surveillance, Gen2 night vision scopes mounted on high power sniper rifles, tanks, and highly trained military. Ah, heck, just give me a shotgun!

Why, so armed, you might do as well as the Branch Davidians, or the Ruby Ridgites, or the Warsaw Ghettoans, and manage to kill a few before you get obliterated.

Guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens are the teeth of the Constitution of any country.

I think they might be more like a grease for the wheels of the martyrdom train.

Moderator: Readers, please stay on topic. Your posts should focus on the shooting rampage in Germany. Posts that do not will be removed.

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