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2 gunmen killed outside Muhammad cartoon contest venue in Dallas

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By NOMAAN MERCHANT

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45 Comments
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Yeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaw!!

Good to see Darwin working the right way for a change.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

they should do more of these,, weed out these extremist scum and blow them all away.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Does Texas have a religious freedom law? Can the two shooters challenge the government for infringing on their rights?

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

One of the many differences between France and Texas.

"Can the two shooters challenge the government for infringing on their rights?" @SuperLIb. Maybe but the Second Ammendment is at least as equal in Texas.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

SuperLib - exactly what rights are you saying were denied?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Well I thought it was obvious that I wasn't being serious...

Two less religious nutters in the world courtesy of gun nutters. Maybe we are on to something here?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

"Leaving the world no poorer...two men die."

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Thank goodness we have armed and trained law enforcement in U.S. They stopped these two with only a single minor wound to innocent victim.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Yet another misunderstanding of the freedom of speech and freedom of expression laws.

Yes it is my freedom to express myself but this has rules that are often overlooked.

A perfect example that I normally use in the many seminar I've given in schools throughout london covers this. For example, if I decide to exercise my freedom and I swear at your mother (I spoke ill about your mother.) in doing so I would have impeded on your freedom, 'taken your freedom away'. At this point nothing is stopping you from exercising your freedom by, breaking my jaw.

The law of freedom of (speech, opinion, expression etc) is governed by other laws, if you spoken ill about the queen in public, you would be charged under public disorder.

Another quick example, I can not decide to whip out my penus and walk in public, by doing so I would be directly effecting the freedom of others.

Enough said.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

Yes is okay to express freedom of speed and denigrate the national flag, Jewish faith, Christian faith. It thould be limited and not include Islamic faith? I say do it everywhere, purge the radicals.

A recent poll I saw a few months ago the majority of Muslims here in USA would support Sharia law here in the U.S.! No thanks!!

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Here we go again.... islamic supremacy enforced by intimidation. And very rapidly the West is submitting to that.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Please don't miss understand me, I did not say that I supported the extreme actions by these gun man.

I've simply took a step back and with a cool head looked at the situation, if these two man were not put down, many would have lost their lives, yet these men simply had the wrong mentality (understanding), I think to myself, its still a loss of two lives, could it have been possible to save these guys. Some parents somewhere worked hard to raise these two.

Could the government got to these guys and change their prospective? Violence is never the answer, if your not happy about something you can gather support and protest against it or write to the local authorities etc.

I was simply pointing out that, if I spoke ill about the many sacrifice of the WWI and WWII that the man and woman made to achieve the peace that we have today. No doubt that there will be a public outcry. Moreover if i said a single thing ill about the holocaust No doubt that there will be a public outcry.

In my defence can i argue that I was expressing my freedom of speech? No I can't

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Stragetist:

" Moreover if i said a single thing ill about the holocaust No doubt that there will be a public outcry. "

There are plenty of holocaust deniers, but they don´t live under death threats. For that matter, you can google the holocaust cartoon contest organized by the Islamic republic of Iran -- there were some protests against it, but non of the cartoonists had to fear for his life.

q.e.d.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Okay, American "Freedom Defense" Initiative, I'll take you at your word that you're not a hate group and only interested in freedom of speech.... So how about, for your next contest we all draw pictures of Moses, using pigs' blood for paint?

But you'd never do that, would you? Because you're not actually interested in freedom of speech, only Muslim-bashing.

No intention to offend; just trying to expose these people for what they are....

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Haven't verified your finding yet, but you specified that it was done in "Iran" an anti Jewish nation.

Its like saying, if I supported Man United football club and I go to a pub that supports the same club Man United, I can speak ill of other clubs without fear of my life as we all are singing from the same himsheet

If the holocaust cartoon contest was done in the UK, US, or any of the western world, would it have been excused the same? Would the cartoonists have no fear for his life?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Well I thought it was obvious that I wasn't being serious...

SuperLib - If more than a few posters ask for clarification, than your statement is not obvious. Or sarcastic.

Its always a good idea to make your point without trying to be cute

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

"Okay, American "Freedom Defense" Initiative, I'll take you at your word that you're not a hate group and only interested in freedom of speech.... So how about, for your next contest we all draw pictures of Moses, using pigs' blood for paint?"

WIth all due respect Luca you don't know what you are talking about. Lots of other whack jobs sponsor art contests, protests, etc. and do not have to fear for their lives. Here are a few examples:

1.) Beakers/jars filled with urine in which is an upside-down cross in the name of art.

2.) Demonstrations by the Westboro church at the funerals of dead soldiers with placards saying "God hates fags."

3.) And just type in "George W. Bush funny" into your Google image search machine for a whole catalogue of nasty stuff/funny stuff.

Yes, Luca, it's about freedom of speech.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@sam

I'm talking specifically about the AFDI, otherwise known as "Stop Islamization of America", which says nothing about free speech. They're quite simply anti-Muslim. To quote them:

In any war between the civilized man and the savage, support the civilized man. Support Israel."

You really don't recognise an agenda in there somewhere?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

@Luca. Point taken. But the events I listed above also have an agenda. The cross-in-urine group is taking a shot at Christians, the Westboro church is, well, their just nuts and the Bush-haters just hate Bush. You probably could make a case that the majority of all speech has an agenda. But the point is that the previously mentioned groups were allowed to make their voices heard---regardless of how vile some of these groups and their messages are---and did not have to fear for their lives. Muslims who wish to live in America MUST get it through their heads that religion is not sacred in regards to free speech rights in the US. And while I am no fan of Israel, I would have to agree with the AFDI that people who become violent at a cartoon are certainly acting like savages.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@sam

Sure. We basically agree. My only problem with these folks is that they try to disguise their anti-Islam stance with their "freedom of speech" nonsense. It's perfectly okay to be anti-anything, including anti-gay or anti-Muslim or anti-Christian, if you can honestly justify such prejudice, but disguising such a view as "pro-free speech" is just wrong.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

thats why youve gotta love America, these extremist will have a hard time converting or killing the infidels when 60 million of the population own guns. America while not only having a huge nuclear arsenal also has the largest civilian weapons arsenal on the planet. bring it on you extremist scum

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

A recent poll I saw a few months ago the majority of Muslims here in USA would support Sharia law here in the U.S.! No thanks!!

Which poll was that?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@Luca.

Well, no Luca. In this particular case you sound a bit like people (usually from the Left) who say they are all for free speech until it's speech they don't like.

Yes, the AFDI does not like Muslims and they are against the Islamization of America. They are not disguising their views in any way, shape or form. If you are a Muslim or even religious you probably consider them bigots. But still, they have the right to say what they want to say. Same goes for Jermiah Wright, the preacher who basically says white people are evil, or the Skin-head/Nazi-types who deny the Holocaust or my least favorite, the Westboro church. Now if the AFDI or Reverend Wright or Westboro openly advocates violence; then we are talking about something entirely different. But sponsoring a "let's-draw-the-prophet" contest is not enciting violence and falls under the banner of freedom of speech.

One a different note thanks for the debate. You are one of my favorite posters on this site as your ideas are always well thought out, well written and you never revert to name-calling to make a point which is why I engaged you on this point. Thanks again!

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

'thats why youve gotta love America, these extremist will have a hard time converting or killing the infidels when 60 million of the population own guns. America while not only having a huge nuclear arsenal also has the largest civilian weapons arsenal on the planet. bring it on you extremist scum'

The best way to prevent people being converted to extremist forms of religion is good education, not guns. The last thing we need are nutcase converts able to get their hands on firearms legally. Nutters going on rampages with firearms isn't unheard of in the US.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

You can't be saying that the 60 million of the population owning guns also the largest civilian weapons arsenal on the planet has been all good news, lets not forget sandy hook and the other school shootings in the US. The US gun law has been questioned and made headlines numerous times. Does the good outweigh the bad?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@sam

Cheers. I suppose no two people will ever agree on everything, however intelligent they are.....

And it's "luca" with a small "l".... ; )

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@luca. Got it! :)

1 ( +3 / -2 )

My only problem with these folks is that they try to disguise their anti-Islam stance with their "freedom of speech" nonsense.

I think you have that backwards. Freedom of speech is widely recognized in international law as a basic human right fundamental to democratic societies, what it can be limited by are long-standing laws prohibiting the incitement of hate based on a person's race or ethnic/religious background.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@Lizz

No. This group was set up after 9/11 (coincidence?). They have absolutely no interest in the right to free speech except as it pertains to anti-Muslims. They are a divisive and unpleasant group of people. Don't give them the time of day.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

'I think you have that backwards. Freedom of speech is widely recognized in international law as a basic human right fundamental to democratic societies, what it can be limited by are long-standing laws prohibiting the incitement of hate based on a person's race or ethnic/religious background.'

People shouldn't lump religion in with race or ethnicity. Religion is an opinion and I'm all for satirizing any opinion. That said, these idiots don't strike me as fair-minded.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Lubracasi:

" "Okay, American "Freedom Defense" Initiative, I'll take you at your word that you're not a hate group and only interested in freedom of speech.... So how about, for your next contest we all draw pictures of Moses, using pigs' blood for paint?" "

You are completely wrong. You can draw pictures of Moses all day long, and nobody would threaten your life for it, so in no matter, shape or form is this a free-speech issue. Drawing Mohammed on the other hand is. And cartoons are only the tip of the iceberg. What islamic supremacists want is to stifle any criticism of islamic doctrine. Remember the Pope Benedict speech in Regensburg? A intellectual speech, containing a quote from an 11th century Byzantine emperor got the same virulent reaction with death threats and riots. And THAT is the issue.

Strategist:

" If the holocaust cartoon contest was done in the UK, US, or any of the western world, would it have been excused the same? Would the cartoonists have no fear for his life? "

No, they would not, and you know that. There are plenty of antisemitic cartoons, and for matter we also of "Piss Jesus", "Madonna in cow dung", "Jesus sucking the capitalist pig" and similar "artwork", and while you can be sure that some people are offended by that, what you don´t see is Catholics rioting and issuing death threats.

Salman Rushdie (if you remember him) nailed the issue: "The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible."

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Don't mess with Texas

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@WilliB

You are right that it is very unlikely to see an orthdox Jewish person would jump in a crowd of "antisemitic cartoon event" and start shooting. But then, it is also very, very unlikely to see a holocaust cartoon festival being held in public to begin with.

How much of "freedom of speech" is being excersised when it comes to holocaust and other Jewish related subjects? Marco Polo magazine that had to shut down due to its "no gas chamber" article in Japan? A Charlie Hebdo editor who got fired for his Judaism cartoon?

"The Holocaust Industry" by Norman Finkelstein, anyone?

http://anonhq.com/charlie-hebdo-fired-anti-semitic-cartoonist-ridiculing-judaism-2009/

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/31/world/tokyo-magazine-to-close-after-article-denying-holocaust.htmlff

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@ williB

"There are plenty of antisemitic cartoons" "some people are offended by that,"

Because its considered to be invigorating statements or act, the end results would be public disorder, and that is an offence under the British Police laws.

Do you remember the summer riots in the UK on London Streets? A few youths used social media to encourage and build momentum for the riots that followed, I was part of the MAT at the time, in the end some of the youth got charged for invigorating public disorder, you could argue that they were only exercising freedom of speech etc, point being they were found guilty and served a sentence.

I've heard of Salman Rushdies exploits, how he managed to get away with the remarks made towards Her Majesty is beyond me.

Yet if you make even the slightest joke that you somehow support terrorism views on say a YouTube video, you can be sure that the feds would take an express jet and be at your door with a ticket to Grantenamo the next minute.

Double standards on the freedom law I suppose, I have yet to find a law that does not have some form of double standards. Its but man made, man is but human, human by their very nature are flawed. Please don't put "gods" law to me. I do not believe in a god to begin with.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Okay, American "Freedom Defense" Initiative, I'll take you at your word that you're not a hate group and only interested in freedom of speech.... So how about, for your next contest we all draw pictures of Moses, using pigs' blood for paint?"

I think it's disgusting, but as an American, I totally support any artists freedom of expression and most level-headed logical thinking people will agree that and that would be the majority, the religious nutters would most likely disagree.

'thats why youve gotta love America, these extremist will have a hard time converting or killing the infidels when 60 million of the population own guns. America while not only having a huge nuclear arsenal also has the largest civilian weapons arsenal on the planet. bring it on you extremist scum'

Yup! Also, these guys must have been out of their mind to remotely think that the US is France and they can just waltz in and fire up the place and thinking that the the exhibit would be a bunch of artists without ARMED security and special forces. One word for that: Dumb!

The best way to prevent people being converted to extremist forms of religion is good education, not guns.

Guns are not the issue, but if you insist, as an American, I have the right to bear arms and protect myself and my family.

The last thing we need are nutcase converts able to get their hands on firearms legally. Nutters going on rampages with firearms isn't unheard of in the US.

There are ways that you can lock up or section off these nut jobs without infringing on the rights of law-abiding Americans that are following the law and are responsible gun owners.

A recent poll I saw a few months ago the majority of Muslims here in USA would support Sharia law here in the U.S.! No thanks!!

Exactly, now try and go to a Muslim country and try to impose Christian or Jewish values. I know exactly how that will end up, you either be dead or imprisoned, PEROID! But the radicals Islamists insist that we have to understand and accept Sharia? Exactly, NO thanks.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

NYToday:

" But then, it is also very, very unlikely to see a holocaust cartoon festival being held in public to begin with. "

They have one as we speak in Teheran. And you find plenty of tasteless antisemitic cartoons in Western newspapers. What we don´t see is death threats as a response.

Strategist:

" Please don't put "gods" law to me. I do not believe in a god to begin with. "

This is precisely the point. What the islamists want is to enforce Shariah blasphemy laws onto us, even those of us who don´t believe their god. Do you really want to submit on the blasphemy laws of an alien religion?

Can you imagine others did that? How about if Scientologist threatened to murder anyone who draws Ron Hubbart? Would you defend that too?

By the way, the Dallas contest was an art contest, not a cartoon contest, and the winner was a former muslim.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@clamenza. I have no recollection of every conversing with a "clamenza.

If,however, you are in fact "hoserfella" and now hiding behind a new identity then our debate was about someone comparing Barrack Obama to Hitler. It was a long and heated debate and while I attempted to be polite (as discussing race-relations in America is a tripwire venturee) during the debate you were dliberately rude, snide and obnoxious and you deserved what you got.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

'The best way to prevent people being converted to extremist forms of religion is good education, not guns.'

'Guns are not the issue, but if you insist, as an American, I have the right to bear arms and protect myself and my family.'

Yet another Bass non sequitur. Please read the post I was replying to. Guns are the issue in the post I was replying to.

'The last thing we need are nutcase converts able to get their hands on firearms legally. Nutters going on rampages with firearms isn't unheard of in the US.'

'There are ways that you can lock up or section off these nut jobs without infringing on the rights of law-abiding Americans that are following the law and are responsible gun owners.'

How exactly do you do this? It's eluded everyone as far as I can see. The US does an appalling job of keeping guns out of the hands of lunatics. The moment anyone suggests greater gun control the NRA and similar rightist crackpots start screaming about their rights.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Being held in Texas and personally knowing many Texans and how they think, I can't help but wonder how many (those members of the audience from TX anyway) in the audience were armed. The terrorists probably would have found themselves more outgunned once they got inside than from the outside security details. I know for a fact that lots and lots of people conceal & carry in Texas. The southern states of America are a gun happy bunch, and Texas is probably the gun happiest one amongst them.

Don't mess with Texas.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

stormcrow:

" The terrorists probably would have found themselves more outgunned once they got inside than from the outside security details. "

Irrelevant here, since they were shot by police. Just as was the case in the recent identical Mohammed drawing attacks in gun-controlled Paris and gun-controlled Copenhagen.

And that a lack of gun control does not protect you from the jihad should should be clear to Americans since9/11, since the NY times square bombing, the Boston Marathon bombing, the Fort Hood shooting... you can continue the list at will, it is long. The idea that removing gun control equals safety from jihad is a naive dream.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

@Willi, bass

I'm not disputing the idea that freedom of expression shouldn't be threatened by religious extremism (and let's face it, Muslims currently lead the way in that regard), but pointing out that the AFDI are not in the least interested in free speech, but merely in attacking Islam.

If Islam disappeared tomorrow, so would this group. Which tells you all about their true agenda.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The Islamofacists were given a U.S. civics lesson about our Constitution, beginning with the 1st and 2nd amendments. Meanwhile, the winning entries in this contest were the chalk outlines the police drew.

Freedom lives, terrorists dead. It's a great day to be a Texan!!!

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

"Pamela Geller, president of the AFDI, told the AP before Sunday’s event that she planned the contest to make a stand for free speech . . . that would award $10,000 for the best cartoon depicting the Prophet Muhammad." - article

Hopefully Ms. Geller will embrace similar efforts that depict Jesus, The Pope and/or any other religious figure from Gandhi to Mother Teresa or God as buffoons.

AFDI has an agenda that demands mocking the Prophet Muhammad.

Free speech, in this case, may prompt fair criticism of a contest that celebrates poor taste and promotes the denigration of the Muslim faith.

Fair for debate then but let them host the event in a broader perspective and welcome all mocking cartoons which portray faith in it's worst light.

The proof then might be that AFDI is simply using freedom of speech as a cover for freedom to hate Muslims. Or, perhaps, Ms. Geller is just a bigot with a half wit notion that confrontation will enlighten the world to her prejudice.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

...a contest that celebrates poor taste and promotes the denigration of the Muslim faith.

As it should. Being a Muslim shouldn't entitle one to a free pass to bypass the Enlightenment if that person is living in a modern, secular society.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

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