31 of 53 teen girls at polygamist ranch are pregnant or had baby

Folks are so adament that these people were abused, raped and/or made into a baby factory. Maybe you ought to look at the ages of consent on other countries.

http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

Who says that these people were being raised to be baby makers. Sure not everybody. I don't agree.

But then the Texas zealots just went berserk and off of a crank call, rounded up all the people they, the zealots, determined to be abused.

How could they make any investigation in 30 seconds. Hell, if they were individual families they wouldn't get to them for months if ever.

adaydream, Remember it was precisely one of those teenage girls who found some means to notify the authorities of this group's living arrangements. We cannot presume children who have been raised wholly outside the mainstream are in a position to give consent because they have been kept ignorant of other choices. Plus, to survive these communities have to kick out teenage boys because they represent competition for the older men who feel entitled to establish harems. Incidentally, they rarely enter into legal marriages in order to allow the young mothers to collect welfare. How many men are able to support 30 plus kids after all?

This was called in by a crank. It wasn't a valid call for help. It was a 30 year old black girl that called it in. She has a history of this.

Betzee, if these women and children were being protected, supplied all their needs and they desired to be with that husband, I'm cool with it. I'm not running around trying to correct each religion of my perceived sins.

All over the world polygomist marriages are sanctioned. The Mormons ceased it for one reason and one reason only, they wanted Utah to become a state. That was it. They never said they received another vision and the Lord said it should be stopped.

Betzee, a young man couldn't support anymore than one wife even if he could find several. It takes an older, wealthier man to support and manage his harem, as you want to call it.

There will be plenty of time for more discussion.

Be carefull when you see statements from what is considered the worst of the child protective services departments of any of the 50 states. These are Texans speaking, and that says a great deal.

Adaydream, you're missing one important fact. Due to the US seperation between church and state, if the law says you can not have more than one wife, or that if you're going to marry someone at 16, you'd better go the proper legal channels. Because it is illegal by state law to have polygamy, as well as the fact that none of the marriages were legally certified by the state they're in trouble for what they've done. Until US/STAT LAW changes that says otherwise, these folks are in the wrong no matter what other countries laws make for their own citizens.

HonestDictator I understand that. But the ranch was there for years. It wasn't as if it just popped up out there in Texas. They were aware of the FLDS being there all along.

Then this false claim comes in and the state just rips over 400 children away from their mothers, in a matter of a couple of hours.

So I'm not disputing that fact. I'm talking about how they went about it.

But personally I have no problem with pologamy.

I have more problems with the man who can't handle one woman and beats the children and wife. He's more a danger to other, then a god fearing, caring father.

Even if the initial claim was false there is a 16 year girl who has had 2 kids, which begs the question as to what age she had the first one and how old was the father. Since the cult members do not enter into legal marriages by our standards then clearly the law has been broken. It is essentially a cult and the old guys are having all the fun. They have set themselves up to basically exploit young women under the guise of religious freedom. These cults are always focus on sex and it attracts a lot of old men, who otherwise would have to work hard to score even in situations where the only criteria to do so is to have a few dollars. I just feel sorry for the women who have been used so skillfully by these perverted men who all should be in jail. Take the kids away, break up the the group ramp.

These cults are always focus on sex

Just because they do have sex, as most other married people do, doesn't mean that this group focuses on sex.

As for the mothers' young age, they just happen to be too young for Texas today. In a different place or a different time, it would be considered normal.

they just happen to be too young for Texas today. In a different place or a different time, it would be considered normal.

That's the usual defense of pedophiles.

The problem of that sect was not polygamy, as US autorities tolerated it. In fact, even if you cannot legally marry 3 women at the same time, it's legal to do it sucessively, or to marry one and live with 2 more girlfriends as commonlaw wives, having 30 kids if you wish. Between consenting adults.

The cops went there because of child abuse. That's a fact that over 50 of these wifes are underage. That's child abuse. That's rape. That's crime. And living in this community was being accomplice of such crimes. Whoever gave the phone call doesn't change the situation.

BTW, does their religion tell them to rape underage girls ? Can't they choose their 3 women among adults ? To me, it really looks like other cases over the world when Catholic priests, Bouddhist monks, religious leaders sexually abused children. That never was part of their religions, just powerful guys abusing weaker followers.

Some of the comments here reminded me of the flap over the democratic election of a conservative Muslim to the presidency in Turkey last year. At the age of 30 he was introduced to his (only) wife when she was just 14. As a concerned secularist pointed out, “If you ask her, did she choose freely to wear the head scarf? She’d say ‘yes.’ What does that mean?”

That is the crux of the matter in determining consent amongst parties who have widely divergent social status within their community. In the USA we have laws set at the state level regarding consent. It does not appear they were followed here and therefore the authorities should investigate.

It may be that the old guys married a succession of young women, often sisters, to legitimize the unions and then set up common law households comprised of current and former legal wives who collect welfare as single mothers since they obviously have no job skills to support their broods. Society absolutely has not only the right but the obligation to step in in such situations.

31 of 53 teen girls at polygamist ranch are pregnant or had baby

Shazaam. Some teenagers are actually legal adults. Why, some "teenagers" could even be 19 years and one day short of 20.

Everton2, based on your argument, then why do we sit around and snicker when an 60 or 70 or 80 year old. We snicker about the age difference and we all know why he married the young girl. "SEX and this is a young thing draped on his arm when he goeds out.

These women and children were being loved cared for.

Right, break up the "Cult" as you call it. Break up families. Send brothers and sisters all over the state and they may never see each other again, except on some "60 Minutes" where two family members who find each other 40 years after being split up.

Alright, think what you will about this sect and whether the children were abused etc. Personally I am an atheist and for once I find myself in support of the religeous order. Not because I agree with them or don't think their choice of living arrangements is a little nutty but for the reason that there is no way these kids will be better off in state custody. Taking that idea further, this is the only life they've ever known, do you suddenly expect them to start playing Nintendo and going to public school and actually adjust successfully?

usa, at least the children are supposed to continue to be home schooled. They will not be sent to public school or forced to be a part of the world they don't know.

If these Texas zealots have to ruin families in this manner, I wish they would have at least distributed the children to Latter Day Saint (Mormon)families who at least know the religion and can best deal with the stupidity of the Texas government and not be shocked with their paticuliar rites and practices.

This came to light in 2001, as reported in the LA Times below, when a man named Tom Green courted publicity by opening the doors of his polygamous household, which included at least one set of sister wives, as well as one wife who was pregnant at age 13 which made it statutory rape.

According to law enforcement officials and others familiar with how plural marriage operates, the problems usually associated with polygamy include:

High levels of incest, child abuse and wife battering. But the crimes are rarely reported because of the secrecy surrounding polygamous communities, law enforcement officials say.

Widespread reliance on welfare. In the tiny town of Hildale, for example, along the Utah-Arizona border, as many as 50% of the residents are on public assistance, according to state and federal records. The fraud occurs when plural wives claim they don't know the whereabouts of their children's father.

Unusual levels of child poverty. For example, across the street from Hildale in Colorado City, Ariz., every school-age child in town was living below the poverty level, according to U.S. Census Bureau estimates from 1997, the most current available.

Wide-ranging tax fraud. Polygamists often underestimate their income or, as in Green's case, don't file returns at all.

Limited educational opportunities. Last year the prophet of the Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints Church, a group excommunicated more than a century ago for practicing polygamy, ordered the town's children to stop attending public school, resulting in the closure of the local elementary school.

Overtaxed public services. Medicaid pays for more than one-third of the babies born in Utah, and plural wives account for a disproportionate share of those births, child welfare advocates say.

http://rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy69.html

I am talking about the Texas event. The event this article is about.

Okay, okay, I know that what you mentioned may very well be what's going on. Let's go to the streets of Kansas City and all the mothers that apply for welfare and say they don't know where or who the father is.

We can go to the hills of KY and find families where the father has been producing children with both his wife and daughter since they were both 14.

There are instances of cheating and abuse all over the country. There are children who are picked up dead and alive along the side of roads everyday, where they were abused.

This family ranch was a healthy community of happy men, women and children. They may not have been living the life that you want, but it works for them. I don't remember seeing high electric wire fences. If they wanted to leave, they walk.

This particular event of taking children into custody was started by the fake 911 phone call from the 30 years old black woman. Not some proof of child endangerment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy

This is a basic article on polygamy that even references 22 communities where polymany thrives. It's not something that's hidden.

But Texas went in and just rousted up everybody from birth to 18 years of age and claimed child abuse, with no proof.

Who's next, the Amish coomunities?

adaydream, this is what we know from the article: A total of 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 are in state custody after a raid 3 1/2 weeks ago at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado. Of those girls, 31 either have children or are pregnant...

This is below the age of consent. And it won't be so happy for the teenage boys who are pushed out of the community so the old guys can monopolize the girls their age who, in a free choice environment, might prefer to pair up with them.

My knowledge of these practices come from Jon Krakauer's book Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith, written in the wake of the Green family revelations, which detail the shadowy world of Mormon fundamentalism. From amazon.com: The Mormon Church was founded, in part, on the idea that true believers could speak directly with God. But while the mainstream church attempted to be more palatable to the general public by rejecting the controversial tenet of polygamy, fundamentalist splinter groups saw this as apostasy and took to the hills to live what they believed to be a righteous life. When their beliefs are challenged or their patriarchal, cult-like order defied, these still-active groups, according to Krakauer, are capable of fighting back with tremendous violence....

State officials took custody of all 463 children at the ranch controlled by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, saying a pattern of teen girls forced into underage “spiritual” marriages and sex with much older men created an unsafe environment for the sect’s children.

Gosh, I guess I just added this to the article just 5 minutes ago I guess, or did you just skip over this part.

My experiernce in this is, I am an excommunicated Mormon. I learned the ideas, and reasons for polygamy. Even though the LDS church doesn't practice or preach on the subject as a rule, it was never stopped by the prophet because God said it was now wrong. They quit practicing it for the state of Utah, so that it could become a state.

Out of all the abuse cases that have come to light in the world in the last, let's say 10 years, how many were FLDS polygamist marriages? Or were they just mean men who abused women and children who have no afiliation to the FLDS? How many children abuses were at the hands of FLDS families?

These are loving men who take care of their families. Maybe you don't agree with it. I know it's illegal.

But to up-root 463 children because of a call that you don't even know the validity of, without any investigation. To take these children away from their mothers. To put them in the hands of people, who may mean well, but who don't believe in the Mormon faith and pretend to think they can care for these children properly.

Hell, most people don't even believe that Mormons are Christians. These are some of the most devout people I have ever been blessed to know.

Take your book and prop up a wobbly table.

adaydream,

These are loving men who take care of their families...

Unfortunately that is not generally the case. To create polygamous families, there have to be more females than males:

Observers say the boys at the West Texas compound are believed to be favorites of Warren Jeffs, the so-called prophet of the FLDS even as he serves time in prison for arranging the marriage of a 14-year-old girl to her 19-year-old cousin.

But in the sect's much older communities near Salt Lake City and in Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., welfare workers have long known about boys separated from their families, put out on the streets and considered "dead" by their loved ones after drawing the ire of church leaders.

"Many of these boys come from good families. But their fathers know that if they don't put their child out on the street, his entire family will be put out on the street," said Shannon Price, director of the Diversity Foundation in Salt Lake City that helps victims abused by the sect.

The FLDS has traditionally kept the number of boys in their communities low. That way the male leaders can have their pick of young "plural wives," without the worry of younger competition...

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/04/20/20080420polygamist-ON.html

Let's go back to Texas for a moment.

Apparantly you have forgotten about this situation and want to focus on the culture more than these children.

Did the Texas gestapo have to take custody of the 463 children three weeks ago?

Did the state of Texas overstep it's boundaries by kidnapping 463 children and not just walking in and arresting all the fathers for abuse?

Was there creditable evidence, besides this fake phone call, that something was going on abusewise inside the FLDS ranch? Were there any accusations, hospital reports, neighbors reporting abuse, anything besides this fake call?

I contend Texas took the low road and is abusing the children by taking custody of them, removing them as far away from their mother as 500 miles.

I learned the ideas, and reasons for polygamy. Even though the LDS church doesn't practice or preach on the subject as a rule, it was never stopped by the prophet because God said it was now wrong. They quit practicing it for the state of Utah, so that it could become a state.

The Mormon Church, well represented by members in the Utah government, has been reluctant to address, which would require exposing, the problems of this breakaway fundamentalist sect which practices plural marriage precisely because it fears non-Mormons won't be able to disintguish the two. If Tom Green hadn't actively courted publicity nothing would have happened to him and his multiple wife, 30-plus kid household.

Today polygamy is viewed as a decadent, hedonistic lifestyle by many and at odds with the conservative, family-oriented Mormon Church which has put it in an uncomfortable PR position. Years ago I went through Joseph Smith's house in Salt Lake City. All the people on the tour were non-Mormons. It was emphasized as we went through the rooms that Joseph Smith's 17 (?) wives were in fact overwhelmingly widows in the dangerous frontier whom he was "caring for" out of paternal benevolence. The guide didn't exactly spell it out, but the clear impression was that these were chaste unions. In the final room someone asked, "Um, how many children did Joseph Smith have?" Something like over 50 was the answer. He took care of 'em all right.

It's much better to confront the past openly.

adaydream,

They may not have been living the life that you want, but it works for them. I don't remember seeing high electric wire fences. If they wanted to leave, they walk.

Cults are about mind control and in that way different from prisons.

I'm well aware the children may not fare well in foster care. I myself once considered reporting child abuse in the form of things like throwing a child's possessions in a dumpster and making this sobbing kid pick them out. But I didn't contact them because I thought the girl, in the end, was better off with her biological family. It's a difficult call. But in this case I think it was the right one given the environment these children were growing up in. You talk about loving families whereas I see abherrant behavior which would not have prepared them for anything except replicating this lifestyle. Foster care, by contrast, may open other doors for them.

Cults are about mind control and in that way different from prisons.

So is the media, and the movie industry, if you really look into it.

they just happen to be too young for Texas today. In a different place or a different time, it would be considered normal.

That's the usual defense of pedophiles. That's a fact that over 50 of these wifes are underage. That's child abuse. That's rape. That's crime.

Exactly, that is considered a crime in Texas. The same thing in many other places would not be considered a crime, rape, or child abuse. Or even within Texas, but only a few years ago. I believe the age of consent for marriage was raised in Texas very recently. That was my point.

And living in this community was being accomplice of such crimes.

Thats one of the craziest things I've ever read. If my neighbour allegedly abuses his kid, the police will take my kids away?

Whoever gave the phone call doesn't change the situation.

But you do have to wonder why that phone call was made. Really! I suspect there is something beneath all this, other the concern for the welfare of children.

The group set up shop in Texas in this way:

Men from the sect first showed up in Eldorado, population 1,800, in 2003 and said they were looking for a hunting retreat.

But soon after the men starting building up an exotic game ranch on the outskirts of town, it became clear that this was no hunters lodge.

The YFZ Ranch, which stands for Yearning for Zion, became a bustling mini-city. Sect members built dormitories, a cheese factory, a medical clinic and a concrete plant. They gated off the entire 1,691-acre compound and put up surveillance towers that were sometimes guarded by armed men.

But the most striking feature was a white temple rising stories high into the west Texas sky, built with masterly precision from limestone quarried on-site.

Schleicher County's justice of the peace began flying over the compound out of curiosity and spotted girls and women in long pioneer dresses seemingly out of the 19th century.

As residents read about the sect's history of sexual abuse, and the reports of "lost boys" exiled as teenagers to reduce competition for wives, pressure mounted for Sheriff David Doran to bust up the YFZ Ranch.

Finally, on April 3, after receiving the 16-year-old girl's cries for help, authorities descended on the ranch in force. They said their initial goal was to find the girl and her alleged abuser, Dale Barlow, 50, who she claimed had recently beaten her so badly that she suffered broken ribs.

But once inside, Texas Rangers and child welfare officials said they came upon evidence of abuse too widespread to ignore.

According to an affidavit, investigators soon saw numerous underage girls who were pregnant, and interviewed others who told of entering into polygamist marriages as soon as they reached child-bearing age....

Texas seized control of all 416 children on the ranch, arguing that none were safe in a communal climate where abuse seemed to be a part of everyday life.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-compound12apr12,0,3631382,print.story

Normally children can only be removed from parental custody if they are deemed to be in imminent danger. This "unhealthy environment" rationale is a bit of a stretch, but I think Texas did the right thing. Adaydream seems to be confusing his experiences as part of a mainstream Mormon community with a fundamentalist offshoot that was anything but.

several things in this article, about this sect. The argument is both statutory rape and polygamy.. Ok, so if it is illegal to have to have more than one wife (and it should be) and most state laws don't allow sex of people under an age specified by each individual state which I believe the youngest is 16, why does the US government allow people to immigrate with multiple wives and wives some as young as 12 as long as it happened in their previous country?

Personally, I think the place should burnt to the ground.

We're so concerned about these people that make a choice to be in this polygamist community.

Comments like "Personally, I think the place should burnt to the ground."

I hope these posters take their holier than thou attitudes and clean up the envirement they live in.