4 killed in Pennsylvania health club shooting

America proves once again its right-to-bear-arms policy is a global joke.

If only these gym patrons had pistols on their person, they would have been able to stop this madman mowing them down from behind.

If only these gym patrons had pistols on their person, when the police or SWAT team arrived, they would have instantly been able to determine the evildoer because he would be the one.....um.....holding the gun.

Oh dear.

Let me see, the NRA says, guns do not kill people, only people kill people? The NRA should be ashamed of themselves. RIP dead Penn. folk.

Screw the victims, let's debate gun control.

Superlib, with much tighter gun control, there probably wouldn't be victims.

egg...chicken......sorry you can't see which comes first.

I'm with you. I just want to make sure that we have a blanket ban on expressing any sympathy for the victims, something we'd do for anyone who gets shot in any country other than America. The bodies are too fresh and it would be a sin to let them go to waste by NOT using them as ammo in a gun control debate.

SuperLib: "I just want to make sure that we have a blanket ban on expressing any sympathy for the victims, something we'd do for anyone who gets shot in any country other than America."

You always come on here and try to negate others' points by pretending they express no sympathy for the victims. I think what you REALLY want, or what you seem to want, is for that and that alone, and for it not to turn into a debate on US gun control (or the lack thereof). First and foremost, tough luck. While I don't think a SINGLE anti-gun poster feels anything BUT sympathy for those who have been gunned down and their families, we also have every right to express our desire NOT to see this again, and to throw up our arms when it happens day after day after day after day after day.

Secondly, would you like to know why you see less sympathy in general? it's easy if again you think of the day after day after day after day after day part.

RIP, people.

SmithinJapan - "Secondly, would you like to know why you see less sympathy in general? it's easy if again you think of the day after day after day after day after day part."

Right on.

SuperLib appears to only want to deal with the symptoms of U.S. Gun OutOfControl policy, rather than deal with the cause, which will be far more effective in the long run.

Yes, it's lame, and no, it's not surprising coming from SuperLib.

RIP, people.

RIP, people?

You boys are getting soft. If you really cared about these people, and if you really cared about well-being of Americans (which I know is a top priority in your lives), you wouldn't be saying such things. Just saying it means the next person is waiting to get killed because you didn't change the gun control laws. You're wasting our time.

SuperLib: "If you really cared about these people, and if you really cared about well-being of Americans (which I know is a top priority in your lives), you wouldn't be saying such things."

Hahaha... SuperLib is back to the 'non-American' finger-pointing when his comments appear as absurd as they are. Oh, and the attempted dig was NOT subtle, my friend. Anyway, you make no sense, as is usually the case when you try to deflect from the issues. Sure, people died, and it's down-right awful, but you ask people on here to completely ignore HOW they died. What's more you sarcastically comment that if we don't ask why and simply bow our heads for those who died we must therefore be insensitive and not care about them. Sorry, but you got that 'reverse logic' thing going again. You see, people who DON'T raise the issue of gun control and try to show the morons in the world who think guns are just and need to be kept that they are utterly wrong, this thing will continue to happen, and once again we'll have people like yourself asking others to silently pee on their graves and line up for the next bullet (which is around the corner).

It's YOU who have to change your own laws, my friend, and I think it's sad that you require people like Sushi and myself, the non-Americans with opinions, to show Americans who believe in the right to bear arms the error of their ways. God knows you guys can't help yourselves. Need proof? just look at the headline again. Hell, do a google on "shooting in 'America'" and see how many 'hits' you get.

SuperLib - "Just saying it means the next person is waiting to get killed because you didn't change the gun control laws. You're wasting our time."

No, you're wasting your own time and trying to blame non-Americans for your own lack of will and ambition to try to fix the rampant U.S. Gun OutOfControl policy.

It's clear what you will do at this point.

Nothing.

Meanwhile, more of your countrymen will be killed by guns.

No doubt, when the next massacre happens in America, we'll see you repeat the same lame line - " I just want to make sure that we have a blanket ban on expressing any sympathy for the victims."

SuperLib, I'm surprised you haven't laid the blame for today's massaacre at the feet of Bill Clinton and the Democrats.

Anything, ANYTHING to deflect blame from YOUR lack of will to do anything at all to help solve this problem.

You've still got time. :-)

Don't like the gun violence in America? Don't live there. I would rather you change your address than the U.S. Constitution. Want all countries to be the same? I don't. I want to be able to have a choice of diverse countries to live in.

Mr. Looney Tunes will never kill anyone again.

sarge: "Mr. Looney Tunes will never kill anyone again."

Only took a few deaths to crack that joke, eh?

The NRA doesn't consider a gun as the weapon but a tool for hunting. They don't care who is possessing a gun, or how a gun is used in the public place. Yeah, they are right. There are always some crazy people hiding in the grass and popping out of nowhere and pulling the trigger. So many local communities are highly vulnerable to the shootings, because there's no specific measure to track down these small number of crazy people who are possessing the guns.

RONANCIANNAN states

"Don't like the gun violence in America? Don't live there. I would rather you change your address than the U.S. Constitution. Want all countries to be the same? I don't. I want to be able to have a choice of diverse countries to live in."

Hmm. Good Point. The gun violence IS one of the reasons I left the states. I lived in Pittsburgh before, and know the general area well enough to know that in general, the people there are decent friendly people.

Now, if Ronanciannan were to say in front of the victims' families that the killer was merely exercising his "choice" to have a diverse country to live in... when he took out his guns and shot their relatives, would they nod and agree with him? Or would those decent, friendly people exercise their "choice" to become savage in a desire for retribution.

I am an American, and I am all FOR gun control. There is a BIG difference between the constitutional right to bear arms in the defense of the land and the desire to create anarchy and death with those same weapons.

Mr. Looney Tunes is only a minor example of gun un-control. Looking around pittsburgh to other areas, and there are plenty of cases where gun violence has caused death and misery. Its not L.A., but there are still drive-by shootings in places like Wilkinsburg, etc.

The U.S. Constitution is DESIGNED to be changed. The Founding Fathers recognized that the document wasn't the "be all to end all" and inserted language that allowed it to be modified. The part of the Constitution that the gun nuts live and breathe by was a CHANGE to the Constitution and it wasn't even the FIRST change! I have no problem with it being changed again.

Anyone who declares the Constitution should not be changed as needed is going directly against the wishes of the people who wrote the thing in the first place. That makes them un-American.

Regarding the story, this guy had multiple semi-automatic handguns and I'm sure the NRA's response will be something moronic like, "Well he wasn't an NRA member... and anyway, if everybody in the gym had been packing heat, this would have never happened."

I took the trouble to read previous posts (on similar stories) made by some of the contributors here at the top of the thread.It is pretty nauseating to see how much repetition, nasty snark and deep cynicism is evident in the posts of some here.

Do they realize, do they understand that they give the very clear impression that they WAIT for stories like this?

I'd grant some of them the benefit of the doubt but I notice that the outrage about gun ownership only appears when shootings occur in the United States.

Of course, some blame should go to the media feeds which this site (and most) subscribe to. Stories about American citizens exercising their 2nd Amendment rights and successfully defending themselves and their families against armed criminals don't draw the same numbers of eyeballs, not to mention frustrated, envious non-Americans.

Stories about American citizens exercising their 2nd Amendment rights and successfully defending themselves and their families against armed criminals don't draw the same numbers of eyeballs, not to mention frustrated, envious non-Americans.

Um yeah, whatever. And meanwhile the countdown begins until the NEXT mass slaying at a shopping mall, public school or post office in the US. The 2nd Amendment body count continues to climb. It's over 20,000 a year in the States. Japan, which has tight restrictions on shotguns and rifles and a total ban on handguns had 19 firearms fatalities in 2008.

smithinjapan ( 11:34 ) - It wasn't a joke.

Ban guns. In the more sensible UK, I hear you are not allowed to carry a knife, but we carry guns?

Fascinating. Turns out the guy was a racist; he wanted to shoot up a bunch of white women, because he was convinced that all the white ladies were out banging black guys while he wasn't getting any. The election of the multi-racial Obama and getting dumped by his last girlfriend started him down the slippery slope to self-immolation. Wonder if his girlfriend left him for a black guy?

Lastbesthope: "I'd grant some of them the benefit of the doubt but I notice that the outrage about gun ownership only appears when shootings occur in the United States."

You're not really serious, are you? As opposed to shootings in what countries? Germany? Canada? Both had gun rampages within the past few years where people came on and posted, but in those cases there was a whole lot of, "Haha! Told you so!" coming from gun-nutters in the US who claimed strict gun-control laws have nothing to do with the slaughters, and there was a whole lot more sympathy by others. In either case, and related to the US, there is FAR FAR better gun control, and the cases are something like 1:10000 deaths by guns in the US.

None of us WAITS for these articles, my friend, but unlike you we don't hide when they come, or try to sweep them under the rug like SuperLib does, either.

"Stories about American citizens exercising their 2nd Amendment rights and successfully defending themselves and their families against armed criminals don't draw the same numbers of eyeballs"

Show us a single one, please. I'm sorry, but such articles WOULD draw a lot of eyeballs because the gun-nutters and the NRA would use it as fuel for their cause, shoving it down everyone's throats and gloating all the while. I remember ONE case on here where an old lady pulled a gun on a guy purportedly trying to steal her guy. That's it. Instead of that perhaps you were referring to the many, many cases of where family members THOUGHT they were protecting themselves and shot the Japanese guy heading to the Hallowe'en party who had the wrong address? The many cases of kids shooting their parents by accident? Parents shooting their kids by accident simply because they heard a noise in the house? Are those the kind of 'right to protect families' your talking about?

"...not to mention frustrated, envious non-Americans."

Yeah... I don't know about other posters but I sure am envious that it wasn't me, my loved ones, or my country-men who got gunned down by some nut who was exercising his rights! Pfff... where do you guys come up with this 'logic'??

Lastbesthope: "I notice that the outrage about gun ownership only appears when shootings occur in the United States."

Sorry, just noticed again the absurdity of your statement. You do understand that gun ownership the way it is is ONLY the way it is in the US (at least among nations that are not war-torn or third-world... in other words, 'advanced' nations)?

It's like saying people only ever complain about Kim Jung Il in reference to North Korea.

Smithinjapan, if your going to ban guns in order to save lives then you will also have to ban cars before guns, considering there are more guns in the US then cars and yet less people are killed by guns then cars in the US. There are around 300 million legally owned firearms in the US belonging to over 60+ million people resulting in around 200k firearm incidents. There are around 30k people killed per year by guns, legally owned and illegally owned, nearly half of those are suicides. There are around 285 million cars and over 6 million accidents with over 42k people killed in the US. If your going to ban guns for the sole reason of saving lives then you first need to start with cars before guns.

if you take 30k divided by 300 million you get .0001, as you can see that the guns are not the problem it is the people. Why not ban matches and lighters? I mean after all they are only designed to start fires.

Ok here is an article:

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/04/cleveland_man_caught_in_gun_co.html

another one: http://virginiashootingsportsassociation.blogspot.com/2009/06/gun-owner-defends-self-in-norfolk-hotel.html

and another one: http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2009/07/24/82-year-old-man-defends-himself-against-a-violent-home-invader/

These articles are much more common in the then you would think, they just don't make international news smith, next time google these yourself.

Smith your just going to have to admit that with over 300 million legally owned firearms in the US and only 30k people being killed, guns are not really a problem, I mean for crying outloud why ban something that has a death rate of .0001?

Moderator: All this is off topic. Posts that do not refer to the Pennsylvania shooting will be removed.

Here is another article for you smith of a mother defending herself and her children with a gun from homeinvaders who just happend to be prisoner escapees

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-18149-SelfDefense-Examiner~y2009m7d28-Idaho-mother-defends-her-children-from-home-invading-prison-escapees

Mods if you claim that all posts that don't refer to the penn. shooting are going to be removed then why are posts such as smithinjapan which are not talking about penn. shooting still up but mine are taken down?

Moderator: We want all readers to get back on topic, irrespective of what was posted before. You may take the lead.

This shooting is yet another horrible example of why guns need to be banned, or at the very least gun control needs to be souped up. Until then, while I'm not waiting for it, since I know it's going to come I'll see you on the next shooting massacre post.

Ah just another day in the happy land of guns.......

Topic, the guy was a sick sob who owned a gun legally. He blamed young women for not going to bed with him because they did not find him sexy enough. He then took out his legally owned gun and killed 4 women and wounded 10 others because he could not find love/get laid.

The guy was sick and should of offed himself instead of the women.

BTW 19 years without getting any! Yes nineteen years! Not 19 weeks, not 19 days, no 19 years! This guy could not get any in the States? Man there was something down right strange about this cat! This guy was a bloody freak show and no one noticed? To boot he owned a gun? WTFO?

Guns do not kill people, sick people who legally own guns kill people.

I wonder if the NRA would defend this freaks right to own a gun now?