Police officers run toward London Bridge on Saturday night. Photo: Reuters
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7 killed, 48 hospitalized after London terror attacks; 3 suspects shot dead

82 Comments
By Paul Sandle and David Milliken

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London, you are in our thoughts and prayers.

7 ( +10 / -3 )

The new normal for London and other western European cities.

0 ( +14 / -14 )

It's a war that is going on....

8 ( +11 / -3 )

It's a war that is going on....

It seems to be. Major incidents in at least three areas in London. This is bad.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

The new normal for London and other western European cities.

And not only. This is what, at least 50 attacks and 500 dead over Ramadan so far with most not being in the West.

14 ( +15 / -1 )

Come on UK Government - Hard action needed. There is some serious weeding out needed now! All the candles and vigils in the world is not going to stop this!

7 ( +15 / -8 )

Prayers for all affected.

Many sick people out there.

Waiting for more details, police did the right thing not revealing early findings.

Speculations, can cause more harm/damages.

10 ( +10 / -0 )

Almost made it 2 weeks.

Almost.

-10 ( +7 / -17 )

Apparently Vauxhall is an unrelated stabbing...

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-40147014

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Almost made it 2 weeks. 

Almost.

Yup! Here we go again, sad, very sad. This is sadly becoming the norm in the UK.

-8 ( +7 / -15 )

Life boats being used to move members of the public across the Thames to safer areas. The Tube has shut down. Armed police out in numbers. People injured and some feared dead. Let's hope as many as possible can pull through.

This is sickening.

10 ( +11 / -1 )

Europe are now suffering from their negative inheritances of the past. Colonization and exploitation of their colonies. They cannot refuse immigration from their former colonies.

-18 ( +3 / -21 )

Europe are now suffering from their negative inheritances of the past. Colonization and exploitation of their colonies. They cannot refuse immigration from their former colonies.

Without a doubt, but as long as they don't take a very serious and aggressive approach to this, the situation will only worsen.

-16 ( +2 / -18 )

What is wrong with these people, choosing to kill strangers who are happy to live without abiding by a medieval teaching is that it?, They see happy people not sharing their religious joy, they get frustrated and their choice is to kill? Quite disturbing to see a multicultural society suffer for their tolerance of others while not receiving the same in return.

8 ( +9 / -1 )

London, you are in our thoughts and prayers.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Living in a modern, urban environment comes with an ever rising price (an unpleasant fact that many of us wish to deny) since there are not a few maladjusted individuals who are unable to integrate through gainful employment or who feel alienated without a meaningful role to play in society. Despite the blathering of politicians ("strong'n stable" Mayhem comes to mind) who claim to know how to protect the public from "terrorism", the reality is that there is no way to stop such individuals from running amok short of applying Duterte methods or a Gestapo-style police state. A preferable way would be to create a fairer society characterized by a high degree of socio-economic justice with more opportunity for those living in poverty, and especially for those marginalized communities who feel they have no stake in the rewards of an affluent society. Foreign policy should also reflect the democratic values of social justice and respect for individual freedom (no support for dictators based on economic expediency) since in today's world of social media violent events around the world are immediately communicated and can have deadly consequences at home as the world has witnessed since 9-11.

10 ( +11 / -1 )

Totally agree high population areas/events equal to a higher risk for most crimes.

Terrorists want a high toll. Not sure if this was an attack.

Strange really high population areas like HK, Tokyo, Beijing haven't got hit yet. China does have a significant muslim population.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

i remember the carefree summer days, lazing about in Hyde park, then along came Blair and Bush.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

I am quite sure that the UK - gloriously multicultural and all the better for it - will stand strong and firm, will grieve, and will remain united, arms around shoulders, two fingers up at any suggestions of increased stereotyping, bigotry, or hatred for the innocent.

6 ( +12 / -6 )

"A preferable way would be to create a fairer society..."

You are aware, are you, that the Ariana Grande mass murderer was a student attending university in a business program, and his family had earlier been granted asylum by the British government, so they could flee oppression back in their own brutal society?

Britain is one of the world's fairest and generous societies, arguably the fairest. There is zero correlation between socio-economic achievement and radicalization.

5 ( +13 / -8 )

I used to work in a restaurant in that area, between the bridge and the HMS Belfast. I'd sometimes cross London Bridge or the Millenium bridge after my night shift to go look at St Paul's under the lights. I loved that area.

Such terrible news. My heart goes out to the victims and their families.

9 ( +9 / -0 )

Message to Akula. What are you talking about? Do you want the UK government to rounded up and intern its citizens?

2 ( +8 / -6 )

Sounds like the police did a pretty amazing job with this; from the first 999 call (presumably when the van started running people down) to the 3 ****s being shot took 8 minutes. That's a rapid response, and the death toll would've likely been far higher if it hadn't been.

To all those claiming western governments don't take the problem seriously; there's no way an armed police response would've been fast a decade ago.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Either learn to be a realist or die as an idealist. If you refuse to name the problem, ignore the root of the problem, you're going to keep having the same problem.

Multi-culturalism works, but idealist's need to understand some "culture's" won't integrate.   Just got home from work and heard the news.   Sure you can't read what a person is going to do, but you sure can take particular communities to task when extremism is propagated in their communities.   Only Muslim's can fix Islam, but too many refuse to look at the problems within Islam.

3 ( +10 / -7 )

This is quite sad. But the Brits will continue just as they have with a stiff upper lip.

If you are going to hate something, hate Daesh which is just plain filth or those who fund them. (Although last I read it did not state who was at fault.) But hating all Muslims in general will do no good. Closing down mosques only punishes the majority which are decent people. Who is to say none of the victims on the bridge were not Muslims? Maybe even British born Muslims?

9 ( +10 / -1 )

If you refuse to name the problem, ignore the root of the problem, you're going to keep having the same problem.

If you ignore the root of the problem, it will not be solved. This is correct. And naming/identifying the problem is important too.

However, hatred is not the solution. Of course we're angry and upset about what's happening. How can you not be. But there are so many out that want to 'name' the problem not in any idealistic belief that doing so will help come to a solution on how to solve it, but rather so they can say 'ok, now we can label this group the enemy', which does nothing to solve the problem whatsoever - it only makes it worse.

Anyone who wants to call Islam the enemy, and to declare we're in a holy war, is just making the problem worse. Extremists are the enemy - both of the west whom they are attacking, and of the Muslims who they are attacking in the ME. We need to unite with the Muslims to fight a common enemy, not try to label the whole religion as our enemy.

5 ( +13 / -8 )

Any proof of any Muslim/IS connection?

The 3 dead suspects can't talk.

Sorry, not willing to suspect muslims till actual connections and motives are known.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

@honestdictator

you sure can take particular communities to task when extremism is propagated in their communities

Looking at the 2005 bombers, the Lee Rigby murderers, and the recent Westminster & Manchester attackers, of those 8 terrorists fully 4 were born as Christians (2 with Nigerian roots, 2 with Caribbean roots) and later converted to Islam. It's a little more complex than just saying 'take particular communities to task' recognises.

when extremism is propagated in their communities

Give this a watch:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sMBrbGm7PyE

Extremist preaching is despised by British Muslim communities; they are trying to stop it.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Its well over due to stop being tolerant of people's that are not tolerant of the western way of life. This will only get worse.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

Manchester's One Love concert will take place tonight to raise money for those who lost loved ones in that sick attack.

I'm sure the people killed here will also be in the thoughts of those present.

It's still only June 4th. The storm may not be over yet.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Tony, no one is tolerant of the filth who do this stuff.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Tony, no one is tolerant of the filth who do this stuff.

I'd say the filth who carried out the Westminster Bridge attack would have been tolerated by the filth who carried out the Manchester attack.

The man who mutliated a soldier on the streets of London would have very probably tolerated the 7/7 bombers.

Many, probably not all, of the people leaving the UK to join ISIS probably wouldn't decry this kind of behaviour either.

No doubt some extremist preachers, including the now jailed Anjem Choudary, would not decry this and instead focus on UK foreign policy.

The scores of jihadis who've had plots foiled by the secret services would probably be tolerant too.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

I don't blame/condenm anyone till affiliation, motives, etc ate shown.

But agree they are low-lifes.

Might be being buddhist we don:t assign blame till all facts are known.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

@pacinct - The London Telegraph is reporting that knife wielding attackers were shouting "This is for Allah" during the attacks. I think these attacks were connected to Islam. Does this means all Muslims support the attacks or are like the vile perpetrators? Of course not. But I think once again the attacks will be found to be related to the religion.

Not being a Muslim I really have no idea how to approach this problem. Whatever is being done currently does not seem to be working, however.

One could only hope people from within the religion, who may have better ideas on how to address this issue, can work with the authorities to come up with a workable solution.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

Might be early reports.

I condemn IS, etc but anyone can scream anything, etc.

Many witnesses hear X and more so as time passes.

Conditioning also makes you hear things.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

I think if people wish to live in a foreign country (as I do) we should respect the local customs. I do not go as far to call myself a guest (guests do not pay taxes) but I do feel it is my responsibility to learn the language, respect the culture (not necessarily agree with all of it), and try to be a productive and law abiding member of society.

If it becomes too distasteful (as it seems to be for part of the Muslim population in the UK) then it would be better for them to return to Islamic countries where the overall culture and way of life is in line with their way of thinking, rather than shooting young ladies or running over and stabbing people.

Their actions also make it difficult for the majority of Muslims who want to just raise their kids and live a good life.

The one thing I do believe is if there are people known to be radicalized (with strong evidence of this of course) the government may want to consider going beyond a watch list as it does not seem to be working.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I am quite sure that the UK - gloriously multicultural and all the better for it - will stand strong and firm, will grieve, and will remain united, arms around shoulders, two fingers up at any suggestions of increased stereotyping, bigotry, or hatred for the innocent.

We will. And we will do it when it happens next time and the time after that.

However, standing strong is not in itself a practical defence against people who are planning to kill and give their lives in the process.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Sure Stranger !!

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

There is also a documentary, I believe - ''What British Muslims Really Think''

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Something has got to give. There is going to come a time when even liberals will say enough is enough.

I grew up with kids from all backgrounds, christians, atheists, muslims, hindus, sikhs, buddhists and we all got on well. I don't ever remember anyone arguing with anyone else because of religion, apart some racism from the white kids as usual. Those were the good old days. But things started changing in the nineties and I can't help thinking the newer immigrants were different.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

@Jimizo

You know, I was going to phrase my original comment "Tony, no one is tolerant of the filth who do this stuff, except the filth themselves" but I figured the last bit was so obvious as to be redundant. Evidently not.

My point to Tony was that no one else, including all but a small fraction of one percent of Muslims who do this stuff, tolerates people who do this stuff.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Recently this issue has been limited to Muslim perpetrators (for whatever reason). There is not a spate of terrorists running people over invoking the name of Jesus.

It is why I am of the belief solutions to the problem should come from within Islam, working in conjunction with the authorities.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Sure Stranger !!

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

Thanks. That appeared to be a balanced article, in that it reported on the results of the poll, and also brought up criticisms on where it may be flawed.

It's good to have some real numbers to work with though, so as to actually know what we're working with, rather than just a bunch of hyperbole.

There were a few points that were brought up, that stood out to me:

The survey does show that 88% of British Muslims believe Britain is a good place for Muslims to live.

Many British Muslims do not share the values of their non-Muslim compatriots, and say they want to lead separate lives under Islamic Sharia law, according to the findings of a new survey.

This shows that while they like Britain, there is an integration problem. For Britain to get past these terrorist incidents, that is the problem that needs to be fixed more than any other. Now right away, fingers are pointed on both sides. "They don't integrate!" says one side, while the other side says "they don't want us". And both are right to some degree. Integration doesn't just 'happen', it's something that needs to be worked towards on both sides. The more that Muslims feel that they are a part of Britain, rather than living in a bubble within it, the more they will assume the mantle of a citizen of the country, rather than a minority just living in it. And the more that 'white' (for lack of a better word) Britain sees the average Muslim as one of their own, the more they will be able to mentally separate the average Muslim that is just living their life, from the terrorist that is trying to take others'.

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

Something has got to give. There is going to come a time when even liberals will say enough is enough.

It was enough the first time it ever happened. Terrorism is horrible, and our species would be better off had it never happened.

But it did. Now we need to deal with it in realistic ways that will reduce incidents of terrorism to as low as possible (as we'll never get rid of it entirely).

The idea that 'liberals' somehow don't want to terrorism to end is pretty ridiculous. What possible motivation could we have for wanting more people to die?

We just have differences in opinions about how it should be dealt with.

So what I'm curious is how you think it should be dealt with. "Enough is enough", so therefore...? What is the end of that statement? How should the issue be dealt with?

3 ( +8 / -5 )

The sad thing now is that the armed officers will be questioned, did you you the right amount of force? did you give a warning? did you do this? did you follow correct procedure? if this was not carried out correctly, they can be arrested and charged with murder! how bad is that when your trying to protect people? the police have my full support in this as it is a difficult job.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

took my baby daughter and wife home to london for 2 weeks and chose not to go to Borough Market the weekend before last as it was bank holiday and with what happened in Manchester i thought it was not the best option. The family took the mickey out of me for it, now 7 days later to the day and hour this happens. Sends shivers down my spine.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Totally agree high population areas/events equal to a higher risk for most crimes.

Terrorists want a high toll. Not sure if this was an attack.

it wasn't a bridal shower, that's for sure.

Strange really high population areas like HK, Tokyo, Beijing haven't got hit yet. China does have a significant muslim population.

Not yet.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

Might be early reports.

I condemn IS, etc but anyone can scream anything, etc.

Many witnesses hear X and more so as time passes.

Conditioning also makes you hear things.

Absolutely right that we do not jump to conclusions. It is possible that multiple witnesses are under a mass delusion but it is most unlikely.

The most likely answer is often correct.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Honestly doubt we will see those.

In my hometown we got hit wirh PLO, etc attacks in my youth.

Nothing since and a yearly woodstock style festival attracts around 3mill visitors more than the population of my town.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Hey peeps above, Tokyo has been hit by terrorists, albeit home-grown ones. And China has been hit by Islamic terrorists many times, with both bombing and stabbing incidents, mostly in the west.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Sure Stranger !!

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

Thanks. That appeared to be a balanced article,

No, I don't think so. Gatestone is owned by Nina Rosenwald, a Sears Roebuck heiress, known as the "Sugar Mama of Anti-Muslim Hate".

https://www.thenation.com/article/sugar-mama-anti-muslim-hate/

http://www.alternet.org/investigations/one-americas-most-dangerous-think-tanks-spreading-islamophobic-hate-across-atlantic

She is connected to an awful lot of very unpleasant people on both sides of the Atlantic. I'd be very wary about anything she sponsors....

2 ( +5 / -3 )

@Jimizo

You know, I was going to phrase my original comment "Tony, no one is tolerant of the filth who do this stuff, except the filth themselves" but I figured the last bit was so obvious as to be redundant. Evidently not.

My apologies. It's just that you can't be too sure these days with posts on this topic. You hear too many weird and not so wonderful things like Islam and Islamism or Islam and Jihadism have no connection whatsoever or IS is a purely political movement.

One poster told me emphatically that people who carry out Jihadist atrocities are not Muslims. They just can't be because, well, they just can't be.

There are posts that bend your mind on this topic. Your post certainly wasn't one of these.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

pacint:

Strange really high population areas like HK, Tokyo, Beijing haven't got hit yet. China does have a significant muslim population.

China DOES have a problem with islamic terrorism. This is one of the reasons why subways in some cities have extremely strict security checks, compounding the problem of over-crowding. There have been many attacks, not just in Xinjiang, but in the larger cities, though I haven't heard of any in the past year. Just search the internet. Knives and cleavers, as well as cars, are a common choice of weaponry.

But then again, people usually only care if these attacks take place in western countries. This is a regular occurrence in some Asian countries.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Terrorists want a high toll. Not sure if this was an attack.

These road attacks are never going to result in a huge death toll but IS recruits that don't have terrorism training or experience can at least drive a car. They are looking for softer targets of symbolic importance in the West.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

True ISIS been calling for use of cars to hit soft targets.

Might have gotten ideas from Akiba incident.

They do claim a lot of responsability for various attacks, not sure how much is true.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I know about the problems in china, again why no big targets/attacks.

My country is middle european(refugee problem mostly rapes) no major attacks there nor in swiss, italy, greece.

Do we integrate them better? What is the difference?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

These guys stab a young woman 10 or 15 times shouting, "This is for Allah!"

What kind of sick mind can do this? All I can figure out is they're misfits, they're full of guilt for the way they've mucked up their lives, and rather than work it out they've decided to follow a dumb cult that teaches them they can enter paradise by committing evil in the name of Allah. Pure selfishness. Pure evil.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

America should just open their borders to anyone that wants to get in the country. No danger there right?

Who exactly proposed such a thing?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Japan very strict screening has worked.

Will "human rights" western nations implement tough draconian laws on such criminals?

Can talkers and violent men live together?

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

@Jimizo

Thanks for that.

Clearly it's foolish to pretend that this has nothing to do with Islam, as some posters do; it's also foolish to tar all Muslims with the actions of a tiny fraction, as some posters on here do.

Just read this on Twitter (from William Gibson): "Terrorists and fear-mongering conservatives are twin halves of the same two-stroke engine."

Indeed:

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@pacint: Strange really high population areas like HK, Tokyo, Beijing haven't got hit yet. China does have a significant muslim population

Well China has enforced lots of restrictions, imagine the out-cry if such restrictions were enforced in the UK or any democratic country.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-burqa-abnormal-beards-ban-muslim-province-xinjiang-veils-province-extremism-crackdown-freedom-a7657826.html

Looks like local home grown radicals, If these were the battle hardened type's they would have been armed with automatics not knives. There is still a chance to isolate and eliminate these mullah radicals, Sadiq Khan could do that, but unlikely to step-out of the politically correct narrative.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

This was posted on May 24th following yet another attack by radical Muslims.

"The so-called 'hate-preachers' are often quoting from the scriptures and when they say revolting things about infidels, women or gays, they have verses to justify it. This is their religion as they see it and they have the right to practice their religion."

It is because of these scriptures and the Imams that preach hatred and the believers who follow them and the apologists like many posters on this board that Islam is not compatible with democratic society.

One further point: Islam means "submission" and there is no other word that contradicts our belief in "freedom."

Islam, get your actor together or go back to the deserts.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

True that.

Yet my hometown holds the annual music festival on a narrow island(1 subway station) 3 mill global visitors.

Island has a major river one-side and a canal to take the spring overflow on the other.

The island is manmade recall it being build/digging the canal.

No motorized vehicles allowed.

Couldn't get easier for an attack.

Yet, 30+yrs ago my Town build the 1st mosque to islamic standards for our muslims residents.

Lilke I said no probs except for newcomer teenage, etc refugees.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Plastic monkey wrote:

America should just open their borders to anyone that wants to get in the country. No danger there right?

Who exactly proposed such a thing?

Hillary Clinton.

"My dream is a hemispheric common market with open trade and open borders."

May 16th, 2013 to BANCO International.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Islam is not compatible with democratic society

Then how would you explain Malaysia & Indonesia being the most democratic countries in ASEAN?

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Malaysia legal system was based on British law which muzzled the Imams. That is changing now as Shariah law started gaining traction and implementation of Shariah began in 1993. The future will be interesting. Indonesia? Many avoid it because of its Islamic ties.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@Sam Watters

I posted what you quoted. The point I was making was that the constant talk about violent acts 'twisting' and 'perverting' the faith isn't convincing. There are revolting things in these scriptures and calling these verses revolting can lead to charges of 'Islamophobia', racism or in extreme cases, get people killed.

It's very hard to have an honest discussion on this topic. Honest discussions are the best way forward but being labeled a bigot or being murdered can put people off.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Sharia law is no problem back home. Why? We don't accept any law besides the state one, period.

Funnily we also got ranked NO.1 for muslim integration on the globe. US and UK ranked way lower.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Then how would you explain Malaysia & Indonesia being the most democratic countries in ASEAN?

By whose standards?

In recent news, the democratically elected former Jakarta governor was thrown in jail for 'blasphemy' with some calling for the death sentence. Two gay men were also flogged in public.

Leaving the Islamic faith in Malaysia is to say the least problematic. I wouldn't recommend being homosexual there either. Members of other faiths aren't in the best situation either.

Not democracy as I see it. My idea of democracy includes the rights of others to live and think as they choose as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others.

8 ( +9 / -1 )

Yeah Indonesia real glowing light for democracy ;)

141 men arrested just this week for liking men.

This blind tolerance in the name of tolerance is the issue here and why this will keep happening!

6 ( +8 / -2 )

@sam watters,

Ok, so you've given a historical reason why Malaysia is more democratic than their ASEAN neighbours (and thrown in a random comment about Indonesia), though of course Myanmar was also a British colony yet somehow the Islamic one turned out more democratic than the Buddhist one (wonder how you explain that?); but anyway this argument shows that you do acknowledge that those two Muslim countries are more democratic than their Buddhist neighbours. Can you square this with the contradiction it creates against your previous statement that Islam is not compatible with democracy?

Hundreds of millions of the world's Muslims are presently living in democracies, in Malaysia, Indonesia, Bangladesh, and as minorities in India, Europe, the US, etc. The vast, overwhelming majority of them are not terrorists. This doesn't mean there's no problem; but your demonstrably false black and white claim that Islam is incompatible with democracy in no way helps deal with the problem. In fact, that sort of rhetoric only helps those who are the problem.

You talk of hate preachers in mosques as though that's what they all preach, but that's just more damaging rhetoric. Have a gander:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/more-than-30000-ahmadiyya-muslims-from-across-the-world-meet-in-the-uk-to-reject-isis-and-islamic-a7191306.html

@Jimizo,

To be sure, Malaysia & Indonesia are flawed, corrupt democracies; but they are democracies. Recent events in Aceh & Jakarta have indeed been troubling; but Indonesia is a Muslim-majority democracy.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Nothing will be done. The hundreds of extremists who are being "watched" will continue to be watched until they get around to committing attacks. Political correctness trumps security in the UK. If coming to someone else's country and not working, going on welfare, and plotting against the people who put bread on your table is part of your culture, well, the rest of the people in the UKneed to just respect your culture, step aside, keep paying their taxes so you can not work, and let you have at it. To do otherwise would be insensitive, to speak out against it would be bigoted.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

If you ignore the root of the problem, it will not be solved. This is correct. And naming/identifying the problem is important too.  However, hatred is not the solution.

@strangerland Where did I ever say, "Hate and despise" them?  You assume that defending your country against harmful ideals that lead to even more harmful acts that cause innocent people to lose their lives = hatred? 

The problem with the idealist is that you're dealing with a problem that is not a "cake and eat it too" solution.   There are times when you'll find you just may have to use draconian measures to deal with a draconian ideology that is inflicting harm to the whole of a society.

Nationalism isn't good, and neither is prejudice, but it's blatantly apparent that a specific group of people are propagating these problems influenced by a harmful ideal.   You're going to have to get your hands dirty or it's never going away.  

Put your foot down and say, "This is how our country's laws work, you're breaking our laws, you're harming our society that was built on our laws and history.  Either adapt or be removed."

Because the main problem is they will not adapt, and their children who are indoctrinated by the harmful ideals on your own country's soil, become oh so easy to fall for extremist views due to the core problem.

You have to point it out to them over and over and over again... and if they don't get it, you're going to have to make them get it.   Or just sit by and while you're not ignoring it, you're also not figuring out effective measures to deal with it and eliminate it completely.   Putting up with "some attacks" succeeding every once in a while isn't a fix. The water still leaks from a half fixed broken water pipe.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

It is because of these scriptures and the Imams that preach hatred and the believers who follow them and the apologists like many posters on this board that Islam is not compatible with democratic society.

This is historically applicable to Christianity. It's not as if the Crusades were to build goodwill between neighbors.

You equate this:

"My dream is a hemispheric common market with open trade and open borders."

with this:

America should just open their borders to anyone that wants to get in the country. No danger there right?

Thats a stretch for anyone that is intellectually honest and/or doesn't take things out of context.

The leaked excerpt [of the speech you quoted] does contain the words "open borders," but that alone doesn't make Trump's claim correct. Experts suggested Clinton could have been talking about free travel or open trade, or immigration policy. It's just not clear. What's more, Clinton's official immigration position does not contain a proposal for an open border.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/12/donald-trump/trump-ive-been-proven-right-about-clinton-wanting-/

1 ( +3 / -2 )

To be sure, Malaysia & Indonesia are flawed, corrupt democracies; but they are democracies. Recent events in Aceh & Jakarta have indeed been troubling; but Indonesia is a Muslim-majority democracy.

According to Pew, over three quarters of Indonesia's Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia. It seems democracy survives there by allowing religious intolerance and bigotry - jailing 'blasphemers' and punishing homosexuals by whipping them in public.

This is arguably the best the Muslim world can offer as an example of democracy. I think you can forgive people for questioning whether democracy as the west sees it is compatible with the kind of beliefs you find in 'moderate' Indonesia.

Many of the Muslims in Europe come from places less 'moderate' than Indonesia. This is a cause for concern.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

There's no reason why the extremist preachers who inspire such killings shouldn't be put into solitary confinement or deported and have their passports revoked.

No reason, except for the British laws which protect such people. This is the problem.

But let's not think about reality. Instead, let's ignore it and all hold hands and call this kind of thought hate speech... all the while protecting those who want to kill us.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

[The idea that 'liberals' somehow don't want to terrorism to end is pretty ridiculous. What possible motivation could we have for wanting more people to die?

We just have differences in opinions about how it should be dealt with.

So what I'm curious is how you think it should be dealt with. "Enough is enough", so therefore...? What is the end of that statement? How should the issue be dealt with?]

First off, if we go to war it better be for a good reason. Not simply because daddy couldn't finish the job the first time. Stop invading countries on false pretenses. Also stop alienating countries for stupid reasons. Iran is doing much better and it is annoying the Reps. Stop letting countries hide terrorists. We know where they are, we simply choose not to go after them. And stop funding countries who support terrorism, namely Saudi Arabia. And the US supports Saudi, so what does that tell you?

If want to know who wants to keep this madness up, it is the ones who are the biggest suppliers of weapons and those who wants to keep the Middle East in chaos and war rather then peace. There is no profit in peace.

And to those blaming all Muslims for this, with out trying to sound mean or heartless due to what has happened recently in the UK, the Middle East/Muslims have to put up with Daesh and their ilk terrorizing, shooting, raping, torturing, bombing, etc. them almost on a daily basis and casulties are usually much higher. So with all due respect, it is not Muslims in general, only a very small minority.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@Jimizo,

Mate, I'm not presenting Indonesia as the world's leading example of democracy. I was presenting it as SE Asia's leading example of democracy (and it is) as a counter to Sam's black and white claim that Islam is not compatible with democracy. It's not a black and white issue; flawed though they certainly are, there are Muslim democracies. Over half of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims presently live in democracies.

@sourpuss

There's no reason why the extremist preachers who inspire such killings shouldn't be put into solitary confinement or deported and have their passports revoked

Sounds simple, but it's rather hard to do that if they're in Libya or Syria and don't have British passports for us to revoke in the first place.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

This has nothing to do with Islam, a religion of peace and tolerance. They will never have our hate. Now I am gonna go light a candle in the wind and sing one of Lennon's best. I'll be back to check on my up votes in a short bit....

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

"This has nothing to do with Islam, a religion of peace and tolerance."

It has a lot to do with Islam....

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Kind of surprised they "Shot the Suspects Dead", they were only wielding knives. I think having them, or at least one of them, alive would be more useful. I think they need to be asked some polite questions about who their friends are.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The guys were wearing suicide belts, which turned out to be fake. They had to shoot them full of bullets to prevent a possible detonation; shot them 50 times apparently. Of course it would be better to arrest at least one if them alive if possible, but in that situation they have to eliminate the threat first & foremost. I reckon they wore the fake suicide belts in order to ensure they would be killed.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Sorry, I don't apologise for my thoughts here. There is a real and present danger from the Muslim Religion being hijacked by Extremists and with their own justification based upon the texts within that religion that purports violence towards others.

Surely, Something needs to be done about that. Just like if any other propaganda comes out suggesting that the Jewish Holocaust never happened ? We need to eradicate such "literature", and with it, the justification for that Radicalisation.

Now the question is, just how to do that ?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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