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61 arrested over banned Paris Muslim veil protest

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Just in time for the 2012 election campaign. A summer and fall of Islamic protests, attacks and riots ought to sink any hope the Socialists have of taking the Presidency.

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If Muslim men feel that they have so little control over their sex drive that they need to have their women covered that must surely be their failing, not France’s. The French government have the right to create laws for their own country, as does any country and if anybody dislikes those laws they can either not go to that country or leave that country. Muslim countries have their laws and if you dislike them and feel that you couldn’t live by them you would not go there. You wouldn’t demand that they be changed to suit you. Well, you could but you wouldn’t get very far with it.

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If Muslim men feel that they have so little control over their sex drive that they need to have their women covered

I am sure there is some Muslim man, right now, accusing western men of dressing their women like prostitutes! He would be like your alternate universe clone.

This may be a surprise to you, but many women, whether they dress sexy or conservative, dress that way because they, the women themselves, want to!

Plenty of women who wear veils do so in order to avoid attention from males, some of whom will chase any woman with a beautiful face, follow them home even. Most males may not do that, but if 1 out of 100 does it can be quite disturbing for the woman, and a veil is protection.

Some men may force their women to dress a certain way, but the problem is those men and not the veil. So why crack down on the veil??

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Congratulations to France for tossing out the right of people to dress as they want, thereby giving extremists a platform to protest. Its like they planted weeds in their own garden and now blame the weeds for growing.

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If you cannot or will not obey the laws of the country you are living in then, you have three choises. 1.Obey 2.Petition to change the law 3. Leave.

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"Congratulations to France for tossing out the right of people to dress as they want, thereby giving extremists a platform to protest."

So let them protest. France, very admirably, has not taken that right from them or any of her citizens.

When some disgruntled "immigrant, who family and neighbors say recently became more devout" blows him/her self up we know people like Mangaman will blame everyone but the person who sellf-detonated.

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I am sure there is some Muslim man, right now, accusing western men of dressing their women like prostitutes! He would be like your alternate universe clone.

Point missed, completely.

Western men do not force their women to dress one way or another.

Far too many Muzlim men do. It is a social problem in France. Unveiled women in certain cities and parts of town are harassed and even attacked. The link is clear. Militant Islam is the problem.

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Mangaman: Congratulations to France for tossing out the right of people to dress as they want, thereby giving extremists a platform to protest

Well if you agree that they're extremists then you'd probably agree that it really doesn't matter what France does. That's why we call 'em "extremists" heh...

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mangaman:

" Plenty of women who wear veils do so in order to avoid attention from males, some of whom will chase any woman with a beautiful face, follow them home even. Most males may not do that, but if 1 out of 100 does it can be quite disturbing for the woman, and a veil is protection. "

If that was so, we would see women as walking tents in non-islamic societies. But we don´t.

" Some men may force their women to dress a certain way, but the problem is those men and not the veil. So why crack down on the veil?? "

Because the vail de-humanitizes the wearer. Seeing someones face is a way to communicate among humans as old as humanity.

If you cover your face, it is because either you have something to hide, or because somebody denies your humanity, and turns you into a piece of property. Which is exactly what fundamentalist islam does to women.

That is also the reason why the veil is banned in moderate islamic countries. They know what they are dealing with.

We are fooling ourselves if we ignore that context.

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Kapuna: If you cannot or will not obey the laws of the country you are living in then, you have three choises. 1.Obey 2.Petition to change the law 3. Leave.

I'm not saying they have to emulate everything the West does, and we've made our own mistakes, but we're at a point in our beliefs where the notion of someone covering their entire body from head to toe to appease their God just seems a bit silly. It's about a mindset that the West isn't comfortable with.

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Kapuna said: If you cannot or will not obey the laws of the country you are living in then, you have three choises. 1.Obey 2.Petition to change the law 3. Leave.

Which of course completely sidesteps the fact that lawmakers who cannot be bothered following the constitution and national motto ought not to trouble the people to make your three choices, but rather just get out of politics.

This is not a matter that a minority should even have to fight. Its about rights. Since that has been forgotten, the minority does not stand a chance. Basically what you have said is that runaway slaves deserved to be hung because that was the law and the majority agreed.

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SuperLib said: Well if you agree that they're extremists then you'd probably agree that it really doesn't matter what France does. That's why we call 'em "extremists" heh...

Which is like saying that since some will disobey the law, laws are useless. No, it does matter what we do. The veil ban paved a road and opened a door and gave them a platform.

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Mangaman: Which is like saying that since some will disobey the law, laws are useless.

How is that like anything I said? heh.

Perhaps you were referring to reasonable extremists who only create platforms with honesty and fairness. In that sense, I suppose France just lost a chance for those extremists to say how wonderful France is. I was talking more about the run-of-the-mill extremists who will create platforms based on hate and anger regardless of the situation. For those guys, what France does is irrelevant. The outcome will always be the same or else we wouldn't call them extremist.

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Mangaman:

" Congratulations to France for tossing out the right of people to dress as they want, thereby giving extremists a platform to protest. "

So you think it is wrong that e.g. the US restricts the right of people to cover their faces in white hoods and burn crosses? For better or worse, we live in a world of symbols.

As I pointed out before, the moderate islamic countries (the few that are there) also restrict the radical islamic tenting of women.

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So you think it is wrong that e.g. the US restricts the right of people to cover their faces in white hoods and burn crosses?

So you think Muslims are equivalent to the Klan? I don't. Restrictions were on the Klan because they are a hate group that incites killing.

As I pointed out before, the moderate islamic countries (the few that are there) also restrict the radical islamic tenting of women.

I don't look to them for justice or my opinion of what is right.

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"... lawmakers who cannot be bothered following the constitution and national motto ought not to trouble the people to make your three choices, but rather just get out of politics.

"Basically what you have said is that runaway slaves deserved to be hung because that was the law and the majority agreed"

What a lame analogy Mangman comes here with, especially in light of the fact that the word Islam literally means submission.

I am no expert on things French but it seems to me that the French government is being faithful here to the principles of liberty,equality and fraternity by preventing community representatives of a totalitarian ideology maskig itself as a religion from imposing medieval dress codes upon half the population.Job well done.

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Now, what I would really want to see is Muslim women protesting say in Saudi Arabia, Teheran etc..asking for their rights, this stupid attempt in Paris by Muslims in FREE Western Europe is BS, they have all the rights in the world to do what ever they want, but once they try to protest in Saudi, Iran etc..the Taliban will chop off their heads. so they should say MERCI and be happy to live in a free country like France.

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I stand by my old position. They should be able to wear their veils in public but they still need to take them off for photo identification, for police, and at the request of store owners looking out for their own security. If memory serves correctly their husbands can already accompany them to their ID shots. This used to just be about police being able to inspect veiled women now it's been escalated way out of proportion.

Though, on a lighter note. I don't think our Lyon office is due for a visit for a few months. I hate being sent when the host country decides to riot.

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Mangaman:

" So you think Muslims are equivalent to the Klan? "

I pointed out that "the right of people to dress as they want" is not as generally accepted as you claimed. There are restrictions for dress codes already; prohibing facial masking in public would not be something unprecedented.

" Restrictions were on the Klan because they are a hate group that incites killing. "

And you can say exactly the same thing about some radical islamic groups.

Own goal.

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The question:

" They should be able to wear their veils in public but they still need to take them off for photo identification, for police, and at the request of store owners looking out for their own security. "

Well, you realize of course that that is the logical next step. Once you accept that muslim families can burkha their women, then all the rest follows gradually. It is the creeping Shariah. Don´t think for a moment, you can stop it at some point by appeasing it.

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Let those women wear the veil where they want. It is ridiculous forbidding it. WilliB, you better read up on Sharia, most of it isn't 'creeping'. France is just becoming another dictatorship.

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Well, you realize of course that that is the logical next step.

I think the french are perfectly capable of stopping at a reasonable level of enforcement. While all parties involved have had a hand in escalating the issue the feeling I get is that the French see the possibilty of that next logical step as a certainty, which it need not be. The Muslim community isn't exactly helping the matter.

I think that whole country has an issue with the idea of a strong reasonable position. This represents another key item that other countries should pick up from U.S cities like Dearborn. They addressed the issue and we now have a stong, successful, very productive muslim community.

I blame Europe's welfare systems and shorter work days. People over there have way to much time to think of new and creative ways to cause trouble and create injustices where none existed before. Honestly if our American employees acted anything like our European ones they'd be fired inside 10 minutes with the sole exeption of those in Denmark, God knows I love those people. The sense of entitlement is overwhelming and I really do feel that both the French ban and the Muslim reaction to the ban are linked to that.

Deregulate labor and people will be to busy for this nonsense.

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Foxie:

" Let those women wear the veil where they want. It is ridiculous forbidding it. "

In extreme Shariah societies, it is not the women who decide that they "want" it. It is men who enforce it. Women do not have the option of independent decision under Shariah.

I grant you that there are some (including Western converts) who actually want to wear it. But if you allow the tenting of women in public, that opens the door for Taliban-like enforcement.

Try to look at the big picture for once.

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Question:

" U.S cities like Dearborn. They addressed the issue and we now have a stong, successful, very productive muslim community. "

LOL! And in what way, exactly, has Dearbornistan addressed the issue?

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And in what way, exactly, has Dearbornistan addressed the issue?

Women who opt for the veil have their passport pictures and state ID's taken with the veil off, they need to be prepared to show their face to police for identification, and they must remove the veil at a storekeeper's request or when in a government building, schools have their own rules. I've lived and worked in just about every area of Metro-Detroit until I finished college and I've never had a problem with the muslims.

It's not hard to establish reasonable guidelines or to follow them. European governments and their muslim communites are making every possible mistake in dealing with each other.

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let them wear what they want to wear.

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It is very nice when one keeps his/her religious belief close to one;s own heart. Faith, religion etc should be very personal. Not to be openly exhibited or forced upon our neighbors. Are the children asked if they really would like to dress in the attire of their tradition, religion etc. Might be interesting to do a survey on young adults of these communities if it is their desire or some other factor for them to dress in that way.

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Cannot forget the incident when a friend and I walked out of a restaurant where there were two women in burqas. The burqas were very beautiful. But every time the women lifted it to put a morsel of food just made me loose my appetite. Not sure if I reacted the wrong way, but I could not stand it anymore.

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Jkanda:

" It is very nice when one keeps his/her religious belief close to one;s own heart. Faith, religion etc should be very personal. "

They should. But there is nothing personal about the aspirations of the islamists. They want to make Shariah the law of the land. To see how that looks when applied, go to Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia.

And don´t expect the tented women to have any say in this. The argument that being put under the burkha is somehow an expression of freedom is cynical beyond belief.

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northamerica:

" let them wear what they want to wear. "

No. The demand is here: Let them wear what their husbands, fathers or other male owners want them to wear.

And out go our Western ideas of equality.

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@mangaman I strongly suggest you talk to muslim apostates. They've been there and they've done that and they'll inform you exactly how they feel about Islam having been born and raised in either a muslim community, society, and or government. There is a reason apostates and ex-muslims have formed their own organizations to speak out against Islam... they know it for what it is not the "Its only another religion" thinking that you're coming from. France has a right to ban what they see fit. Islam has a potent formula for dealing with "free" democratic countries and its called using the rights and laws of that country to islamic ideals. The burqa has no right in a democratic society as it hides the idenity of the person behind it. Safety of the majority vs "freedom" for a few, thats a choice that those. Even in SA there was a nice clip on youtube of a female reporter stating in a debate with an (obviously male surprise,surprise) imam that since SA wanted all women on TV to wear burqas, and she stated quite beautifully, "I'm muslim just like you, I pray like you, eat like you, and I can go to heaven or hell just like you even though I'm a woman. But why should I have to cover my face which is my only identifying characteristic on television?!" So no the burqa is not always the woman's choice. In an extremely male dominated religion (women are stated as not being equal to men at all in the qu'ran which you obviously haven't read or don't know anything about). I stand by this statement on the rights of religion, "Everyone has the right to believe in whatever religious practices they want to as long as it does not violate BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS" And I hate to inform you but Islam's base ideology from past to present completely violates basic human rights as well as the democratic ideals that many "western" and some other countries have fought hard to implement in their societies. So before you continue on that idea that Islam is "just another religion" talk to some apostates and educate yourself more on the situation.

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WilliB.

I was in Iran, Azerbaijan and Dubai for a short time for work. Do you know what? I saw some amazing rebellious spirit from the native women. A couple, in their 50s invited me to join them for coffee and "some drinks" to their home. I only met them on the street and asked them directions. Then there were other younger women, who were willing to join the group of foreigners to do fun things like drinking and dancing. In a way, I am waiting for the day that they will rise above the religious fanatics.

My mother met an islam lady doctor, who confided in her about how she has to live her life, first under her father's control and now under her husband's control. She is going to break loose one day too.

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