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As Mariupol hangs on, the extent of the horror not yet known

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By Cara Anna

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Moscow had offered safe passage out of Mariupol

But Moscow has shown safe passage could just as easily mean civilians will be used for target practice by Russians training new troops. The Kremlin has zero credibility, look at Russia' record bombing hospitals, schools, weddings and family gatherings in Syria. The Kremlin has relied on its media, especially its social media keyboard armies to push propaganda saying the "'otherguys did it", which is also pushed farther on global right wing media. Putin, the ex-Stasi, ex-KGB agent knows how to use propaganda and probably has lots of other former agents in his inner-circle who are equally adept at spreading lies. Of course both sides use propaganda, but the extreme right has been especially effective at convincing their intended audience that Russia was somehow forced into the current situation where they have to slaughter more women and children, and the elderly.

9 ( +19 / -10 )

“They don’t let us pass through everywhere — there are shootings.”

I believe that this statement is true... but when she says "they", who is she referring to?

The Russian forces want citizens to leave so they can clear out the Azov Battalion that is hunkered down in civilian buildings.

The Azov Battalion wants civilians to stay to use them as human shields to protect them from the advancing Russian forces.

Who is shooting at the civilians trying to leave?

 and hit a military training base in the Rivne region of western Ukraine with cruise missiles.

Konashenkov said 80 foreign and Ukrainian troops were killed in the Rivne attack.

Russia obviously has cruise missiles that are very accurate, so they can hit any target in Ukraine, including the Presidential office. However, they only seem to be hitting the bases that have foreign mercenaries or NATO equipment.

-14 ( +11 / -25 )

Mariupol officials said at least 2,300 people have died in the siege, with some buried in mass graves, but fears grew that the number could be far higher.

There is no excuse that Putin can bring to the table for an invasion that is producing multiple Stalingrad type situations across Ukraine.

13 ( +20 / -7 )

Bronco: they only seem to be hitting the bases that have foreign mercenaries or NATO equipment.

Or civilians.

9 ( +19 / -10 )

How many innocent women and children did the Russians murder today?

11 ( +17 / -6 )

 I think you'll find that's why the Russians haven't been hitting the barracks of the regular Ukrainian army.

I agree with your assessment, in addition, most of Ukraine's air force has not been attacked, as has been left untouched by Russian missiles.

In return, the Regular Ukrainian Military did not attack the Russian convoy that was "stalled" on the highway as sitting ducks for one week.

Putin told Ukraine's top generals that this is not a fight between the regular forces of both countries, it's merely a campaign to rid the Ukraine of the Azov Battalion and their members from government posts.

There's a reason that Zelensky had to ban all opposition parties and has a curfew in the big cities. Huge segments of Ukraine's society do not agree with the extreme national philosophy of the Azov Battalion, who politically are called The Right Sector.

-21 ( +6 / -27 )

U.S. Sending Soviet Air Defense Systems It Secretly Acquired to Ukraine

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-sending-soviet-air-defense-systems-it-secretly-acquired-to-ukraine-11647878422

6 ( +9 / -3 )

Russia should look within and accept peace with the world because not matter what, the world is going to take care of Russia on it's own terms.

10 ( +15 / -5 )

It's bizarre that this AP article makes no mention of the 120,000 ethnic Greeks who live in Mariupol. There have been Greeks living in the Black Sea area for over 2,500 years.

The Greek City Times website has been reporting on the situation in Mariupol since the war began. On March 1st ethnic Greek residents of Mariupol reported that the "fascists" of the Azov Battalion were killing people who tried to leave the city.

https://greekcitytimes.com/2022/03/01/greek-in-mariupol-fascist-ukrainian/

The Russians organized evacuations of Greeks from the area. Evacuees relocated to Athens reported that the Ukrainians threatened them, while the Russians aided their passage to safety. Apparently the Azov neo-Nazis killed an an ethnic Greek and shot two more, for only speaking Russian.

https://greekcitytimes.com/2022/03/18/greek-refugee-from-mariupol/

It's remarkable that any story about Mariupol fails to mention Azov, which is based in the city and is fighting the Russians. The inclusion of a quote from a Chatham House "expert" and "unnamed" American sources perhaps indicate why this is.

-14 ( +8 / -22 )

U.S. Sending Soviet Air Defense Systems It Secretly Acquired to Ukraine

Should try watching RT or videos on Rumble. The Russians and allied militia have been capturing huge amounts of NATO weaponry. They showed javelin missiles specifically. Rows of them and the DPR militia training with them.

-13 ( +5 / -18 )

Russia should look within and accept peace with the world because not matter what, the world is going to take care of Russia on it's own terms.

The "world" does not equal USA, Canada, Western Europe, Japan, Australia.

There are many other countries and regions including some which are quite significant. Like China for example. 5000 years of history, the most populous, 3rd largest land area, comfortably the largest real economy. You should look into it. Not as significant as Australia for example but not completely insignificant either. The there is India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Vietnam, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Argentina, South Africa, Nigeria and many more. The "world" is a big place. You should check out an atlas sometime.

-14 ( +7 / -21 )

The Russians organized evacuations of Greeks from the area

Are those the same fascist forces who invaded the country? How nice of them.

Maybe, you know, if they hadn't have invaded Ukraine, they wouldn't have had to organize evacuations of Greeks.

10 ( +16 / -6 )

"Are they trying to starve those people to death?"

Yeah, it sure looks like it. You know, if the Ukrainians were a different race/religion/culture of people, this would be genocide. But this? This is just extermination followed by territorial acquisition, a land grab. Putin wants the whole enchilada, and that's why it's so important to get arms and supplies to the Ukrainians in any way possible. It would also be a good idea, and they're probably doing this, to train groups of tough Ukrainians in the U.S. with the special forces. It really is essential to see the Ukrainians succeed and Putin fail. Give the Ukrainians every bit of aid and assistance humanly possible.

If the Ukrainians lose, Putin will just kick his heels and start dividing up Ukraine with his supporters. I would also say that Mother Russia is going to have some serious problems with terrorism in the future because of this. It'll take about 10 years, just as 9/11 did after the first Gulf War.

12 ( +16 / -4 )

Maybe, you know, if they hadn't have invaded Ukraine, they wouldn't have had to organize evacuations of Greeks.

See what the Greek evacuees now in Greece are saying: https://www.helleniscope.com/2022/03/20/mariupol-evacuees-show-the-culprit-for-the-bombings-ukrainian-extremists/

-16 ( +4 / -20 )

See what the Greek evacuees now in Greece are saying:

And? Russia still invaded Ukraine. And they funded the seperatist movements in Dombass and Lukhansk, which lead to the creation the Azov Battalion.

9 ( +14 / -5 )

Maybe, you know, if they hadn't have invaded Ukraine, they wouldn't have had to organize evacuations of Greeks

And if Western countries hadn't been arming, training and funding neo-nazis in Ukraine since the US assisted coup in 2014 the Russian wouldn't have invaded.

-17 ( +9 / -26 )

And? Russia still invaded Ukraine. And they funded the seperatist movements in Dombass and Lukhansk, which lead to the creation the Azov Battalion.

And NATO funded the ultra-right coup against the democratically elected government which led to the conflict in Donbas and Lugansk.

-15 ( +6 / -21 )

Before our very eyes Mariupol is fast becoming the Grozny of the Ukraine which was always Putin's brutal Plan B if boots on the ground couldn't get traction and subjugate the Ukrainians in a Russian Blitzkrieg. Putin's devilish addendum of abducting civilians en masse and bringing them as hostages to Russia looks and smells like another of Putin's crimes against humanity adding a final moniker to "False Flag Vlad" for the history books ("Ivan the Terrible" is known to Russians as "Ivan Grozny").

7 ( +13 / -6 )

The real problem is that the reactions from the free West are completely missing or only cowardly. If you all wake up only if they already have expanded from Portugal to Alaska and including whole Arctic, then it is probably much more too late and extremely difficult to formulate an appropriate answer to their real intentions. Of course it’s not about about a handful neo nazis anywhere in the Ukraine, that is believed neither here nor by Russia or Putin themselves. It’s about quite some more… very much more.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

And if Western countries hadn't been arming, training and funding neo-nazis

How many neo-Nazis are there in Ukraine? Heck, how many in the Azov Battalion? The reports of read say there are 2000 members of the Azov Battalion, of which 200 are neo-Nazis. Are you really suggesting invading and killing 10s of thousands of Ukrainians is justified because of a few hundred neo-Nazis? Heck, if the presence of neo-Nazis justifies invading a country, what country is next? The US? The UK?

in Ukraine since the US assisted coup in 2014 the Russian wouldn't have invaded.

Not true. Putin made it very clear in his speech that he doesn't recognize Ukraine as being a sovereign, independent nation.

Lastly, I'd like to point out how bizarre it is that you're opposed to US intervention in Ukraine, yet are silent on Russia meddling in Ukraine. Hmmm

10 ( +16 / -6 )

How many neo-Nazis are there in Ukraine? Heck, how many in the Azov Battalion? The reports of read say there are 2000 members of the Azov Battalion, of which 200 are neo-Nazis. Are you really suggesting invading and killing 10s of thousands of Ukrainians is justified because of a few hundred neo-Nazis?

Maybe but Zelenskyy is cozying up to them, new laws restricting language, clear and documented violations based on race or ethnicity, other NATO nations are sanctioning them, Poland is checking for tattoos at the border, the CIA has been training them for years.

If Ukraine won't do anything to stop their growth, somebody has to. History shows it.

-15 ( +5 / -20 )

How many neo-Nazis are there in Ukraine? Heck, how many in the Azov Battalion?

Azov Battalion alone has 10s of 1000s of members. They have been getting massive state support and NATO support for 8 years.

-13 ( +8 / -21 )

Heck, if the presence of neo-Nazis justifies invading a country, what country is next? The US? The UK?

Please don't give the Russians any ideas! The US also has a Russian-speaking population as well as lands that were formerly Russia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language_in_the_United_States

7 ( +10 / -3 )

There have been Greeks living in the Black Sea area for over 2,500 years.

...and yet not willing to stay and fight invaders...sigh, I bet real Greeks probably frown upon them.

3 ( +9 / -6 )

Azov Battalion alone has 10s of 1000s of members. They have been getting massive state support and NATO support for 8 years.

source? RT?

wiki says 900

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

given no financial support, shunned by all, I can't see how they're even remotely a threat to Ukrainian when compared to Russia.

11 ( +16 / -5 )

Vladimir Putin is like something out of the Old Testament, where Egyptian, Assyrian and Babylonian rulers laid waste to the countries they invaded. It is good to see his barbarism being denounced by most countries. We can perhaps only hope that his karma catches up with him soon and delivers a painful and humiliating end.

7 ( +12 / -5 )

wiki says 900

Nice one. Here is the current Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

-16 ( +4 / -20 )

Thank you for sharing, Ingvar!

In 2017, the size of the regiment was estimated at more than 2,500 members,[22] but by 2022, it has been estimated to be 900 members.[2]

14 ( +17 / -3 )

certainly is a shift amongst the usual posters to say that Nazis are kinda situationally "ok".

Well you know they were bad, but they are on the team we want to support right now and there are only a couple of thousand of them, so its really not that bad.

Interesting change in messaging to say the least.

-14 ( +6 / -20 )

Holocaust survivor, 96, killed in Ukraine after Russian forces shell apartment

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/holocaust-survivor-96-killed-ukraine-russian-forces-shell-apartment-rcna20942

7 ( +11 / -4 )

Bronco

Putin told Ukraine's top generals that this is not a fight between the regular forces of both countries, it's merely a campaign to rid the Ukraine of the Azov Battalion and their members from government posts.

Their members don't have any government posts.

Ingvar

Should try watching RT or videos on Rumble. The Russians and allied militia have been capturing huge amounts of NATO weaponry. They showed javelin missiles specifically. Rows of them and the DPR militia training with them.

That's called propaganda. RT is state Russian TV.

Alfie Noakes

since the US assisted coup in 2014 the Russian wouldn't have invaded.

The coup was a popular Ukrainian uprising. Putin invaded in 2014 because he lost his puppet. And since then Zelenskiy was democratically elected. So quit it with the US assisted coup. Putin was withholding money from Ukraine unless Yanukovych cracked down hard on the protesters in 2013 / 2014.

11 ( +18 / -7 )

Maybe but Zelenskyy is cozying up to them,

Right, but they didn't exist prior to 2014. They were founded as a direct result of Russia funding separatism in Eastern Ukraine.

new laws restricting language, clear and documented violations based on race or ethnicity, other NATO nations are sanctioning them,

Without knowing the specifics of the laws restricting language usage, I'd say I generally agree with such laws, but again, this doesn't justify invading Ukraine.

If Ukraine won't do anything to stop their growth, somebody has to. History shows it.

There are 2 problems with your argument here:

1) Azov battalion/neo-Nazis don't actually hold any meaningful power. How many parliamentary seats do they hold in government.

2) The Russian government/invasion force is full of neo-Nazis as well. I have a really hard time believing the Waggener Group is going to get rid of neo-Nazis in Ukraine. It's also worth pointing out the fact they're moving Ukrainians into "filtration camps," which don't sound too far off from concentration camps, or Gulags, if you will.

https://fortune.com/2022/03/20/us-credible-information-russians-creating-lists-ukrainians-to-be-killed-or-sent-to-camps-ambassador-united-nations-concentration-filtration-camps-batsheba-nell-crocker-michelle-bachelet/

9 ( +14 / -5 )

Sadly, even western intel says Mariupol is completely defenseless against standoff missiles fired from hundreds of miles away, and Putin is notveven targeting a specific target, he's just destroying for the sake of it.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Lastly, I'd like to point out how bizarre it is that you're opposed to US intervention in Ukraine, yet are silent on Russia meddling in Ukraine. Hmmm

Because the US is very, very far away from Ukraine, whereas Ukraine is next door to Russia. And the Ukrainians have been killing Russian residents of Donetsk and Lugansk since 2014. They're still killing them now, something else that goes unreported by the likes of AP.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Putin's invasion of Ukraine is wrong, just as every mass slaughter of millions of men, women and children by the US over the last 70 years is wrong too.

-16 ( +6 / -22 )

certainly is a shift amongst the usual posters to say that Nazis are kinda situationally "ok".

Where has anyone said they're "okay?"

7 ( +12 / -5 )

How about you post reports of refugees fleeing to Russia, have their voices be heard too.

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

Azov Battalion alone has 10s of 1000s of members. They have been getting massive state support and NATO support for 8 years

even the Canadian army trained the bro-nazi groups (reports also available on canadian media)

-5 ( +5 / -10 )

How about you post reports of refugees fleeing to Russia, have their voices be heard too.

Go for it.

7 ( +10 / -3 )

Because the US is very, very far away from Ukraine, whereas Ukraine is next door to Russia. 

Oh, so sometimes it is okay to meddle in the domestic affairs of other countries?

 And the Ukrainians have been killing Russian residents of Donetsk and Lugansk since 2014.

Russian residents, or ethnic Russians? Those are two different things. Either way, do you think that might have something to do with Russia propping up separatist movements in Crimea and eastern Ukraine? Funny that part gets left.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is wrong,

Glad to hear you come right and say it.

just as every mass slaughter of millions of men, women and children by the US over the last 70 years is wrong too.

I don't really disagree with this, but how is this related to Russia bombing Mariupol to oblivion?

9 ( +12 / -3 )

Azov came up before in 2014. At the time they had about 500 members but Russians were saying they controlled the entire government, military, etc. Somehow out of 44 million people they were just everywhere running everything.

That bwing said, I guess they are pretty good if 150,000 Russian troops are kept at bay by a group that is less than 1,000 people.

7 ( +12 / -5 )

There are 2 problems with your argument here:

Fair points and I got off track, my main, not an argument but an understanding of Putin’s and Russias sentiments, is more about NATO encroachment. The NAZIs in Ukraine are nasty and I know Putin has used them to invade, similar to WMD’s in Iraq. They all do it so I don’t like to bother with these so much.

-12 ( +2 / -14 )

Because the US is very, very far away from Ukraine, whereas Ukraine is next door to Russia.

Why would mere physical proximity be a basis for justifying a war?

And the Ukrainians have been killing Russian residents of Donetsk and Lugansk since 2014.

Yeah, there is a war there, in which Russians have been killing Ukrainian residents of Donetsk and Lugansk - part of Ukraine, not Russia - as well it should be noted. Also most of that violence and death happened 8 years ago, after which it settled into a low-intensity conflict. Which is now a high intensity conflict over a much larger area with orders of magnitude more victims, almost all of them Ukrainians suffering at the hands of Russians.

They're still killing them now, something else that goes unreported by the likes of AP.

Yeah, I wonder what could be distracting the AP these days.....

Two wrongs don't make a right.

True.

 Putin's invasion of Ukraine is wrong

Then why has everything you have written on here since it started sought to deflect blame from Putin, placing it on either the Ukrainians or the US or NATO? Is Russia never to blame for the stuff Russia does in your worldview? I seriously don't get it.

just as every mass slaughter of millions of men, women and children by the US over the last 70 years is wrong too.

And what is with these "What about...." statements like this? I was mad as hell when the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and every other bad thing it did not because I don't like the US but because I think invading other countries is bad. Which is why I'm just as mad as hell at Putin right now and NOT trying to equivocate or apologize for that war monger. Russia is the one invading countries right now, the US is the one NOT invading countries right now.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

Alfie Noakes

And the Ukrainians have been killing Russian residents of Donetsk and Lugansk since 2014.

They wouldn't have if Putin hadn't invaded that region in 2014. The only reason that there is a civil war there is Putin.

6 ( +12 / -6 )

Ok, so to simplify, the 900 or less neo-nazis in Mariupol = bad. But they are obviously just an excuse for Putin to bomb/starve millions of people in Ukraine and grab land.

.

6 ( +10 / -4 )

And if Western countries hadn't been arming, training and funding neo-nazis in Ukraine since the US assisted coup in 2014 the Russian wouldn't have invaded.

Not so.

The machinations of NATO and the Western powers in Ukrainian affairs have certainly given Putin a flimsy excuse to invade, but the Russian ruling cabal have always taken a proprietary attitude to their "little Ukrainian brothers" and considered the territory as part of 'Greater Russia" ( Lukashenko, the goose of Belarus is already oven-ready to rejoin). The anniversary of the Crimea's incorporation was the right moment to strike after 5 years of sowing political dissension among Americans and softening their backbones and will to take a stand against the pals of 45. We shouldn't need reminding that it was the Russians who invaded. Why should only Russians get to draw redlines? The build-up of Russian military forces along the borders of Ukraine was an unmistakable signal of intention to invade. What if the Ukrainians had drawn their redlines and NATO, taking seriously Putin's game of destabilizing the region, had been invited to step in to face Russians on the other side of the border in order to concentrate minds in the Kremlin to "make love not war" with Ukrainians?

CHECK!?

3 ( +8 / -5 )

'Impossible to intercept': This is Russia's new deadly weapon"

"US officials confirm that Russia is the first country to use hypersonic missiles ever in combat. CNN's Brian Todd tells us what this means for Ukraine. "

"https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/03/21/hypersonic-missiles-russia-new-weapon-putin-ukraine-tsr-todd-pkg-vpx.cnn"

All this "propaganda" that Ukraine is winning, NATO should intervene because Russia is weak, is a fallacy that, if acted upon will leads us all to disaster.

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

To give you a comparison there are estimated to be about 5,000 to 8,000 Ku Klax Klan members in the US. That's 5x to 8x times the number of all of Azov.

Now imagine someone telling you that the Klan runs the US government and military and is committing genocide in foreign countries.

Tell me when you stop laughing.

For the Donbas War, I'm seeing deaths at less then 6,000 for both sides over the last 8 years. I'm seeing similar wounded numbers (about 12,000).

One is genocide? OK.

8 ( +13 / -5 )

When the west gives in to Russia and Putin, the standard of value of U.S. and the west will begin to fall. So far, the west has shown incompetency against the barbarous war crimes. U.S. and the west is showing to the world that they cannot stop crimes against the humanity.

-10 ( +0 / -10 )

Peeping Tom - where are you seeing that NATO is intervening? If Putin attacks NATO territory, then I think you may see a response from NATO, but Putin hasn't done that (yet).

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Civilians flee for your lives, it is a matter of time before Mariupol will fall, the same for Odessa and kyiv..

Carry out peace negotiations as soon as possible because Russia is unstoppable.

-13 ( +4 / -17 )

lol @TokyoLiving

8 ( +11 / -3 )

In this wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion in regard to the number (which is 10s of 1000s) would you be so as to cite exactly where this quote you cited is?

in 2017, the size of the regiment was estimated at more than 2,500 members,[22] but by 2022, it has been estimated to be 900 members.[2]

In says that it "included" 900 volunteers. Well, yeah it "included" that number and a lot more. But of course the hardcore neo-Nazis are leaders while lots of the fighters aren't hardcore fascists but join due to the US$1000 monthly base salary with lots of bonuses. No way Ukraine can afford that. I wonder who is paying them.....

-13 ( +3 / -16 )

Sure, Ingvar - second paragraph in, at the bottom:

The battalion drew controversy after allegations of torture and war crimes, as well as neo-Nazi sympathies.[13][14] It has used controversial symbols;[15][16][17] their logo features the Wolfsangel,[3] a Nazi symbol used by the 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich.[18] Azov representatives said the logo is an abbreviation of "National Idea" (Ukrainian: Ідея Нації, romanized: Ideya Natsiyi) and deny links with neo-Nazism.[14] In March 2015, a battalion spokesman had said around 10–20% of the unit were neo-Nazis.[19] A provision in Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2018, passed by the United States Congress, blocked military aid to Azov on the grounds of its white supremacist ideology; in 2015, a similar ban had been overturned by Congress.[3][4] Members of the battalion came from 22 countries and are of various backgrounds.[20][21] In 2017, the size of the regiment was estimated at more than 2,500 members,[22] but by 2022, it has been estimated to be 900 members.[2]

5 ( +9 / -4 )

They all do it so I don’t like to bother with these so much.

Except it was the thrust of your argument?

1 ( +7 / -6 )

"Peeping Tom - where are you seeing that NATO is intervening? "

You ought to first understand what one is writing, prior to questioning.

Pls.

-10 ( +2 / -12 )

Except it was the thrust of your argument?

True, and that’s what “off track” means.

-8 ( +2 / -10 )

Peeping Tom, ok...

5 ( +7 / -2 )

If Mariupol surrendered, that would mean an end to casualties. Zelenskyy seems to be more interested in scoring PR points than in saving the lives of the people.

-7 ( +6 / -13 )

If Mariupol surrendered, that would mean an end to casualties

If Russia went tf home, that would also greatly reduce the casualties as well, not just in Mariupol, but in all of Ukraine. Right?

10 ( +12 / -2 )

off track to the bigger picture? Yes, these debates about the neo nazis are good, but hardly relevant to what’s going on behind the scenes between Putin’s push against NATO encroachment.

But... you're the one who's always bringing it up. And now that you've been definitively proven wrong (which you have accepted), you go, "eh, I didn't care anyway". This is sheer intellectually dishonesty.

NATO wasn't encroaching. Ukraine applied for membership (as is its right as a sovereign nation), but NATO was clear that Ukraine wasn't close to meeting the qualifications for membership.

You're regurgitating Kremlin propaganda completely undigested.

Get. A. Grip.

6 ( +12 / -6 )

If Mariupol surrendered, that would mean an end to casualties.

No, it would mean that the Russian troops currently murdering civilians in Mariupol would be freed up to go murder civilians in the next city over.

Surrendering to fascist warmongers doesn't save lives.

9 ( +12 / -3 )

As Mariupol hangs on, the extent of the horror not yet known:

Indeed.

Number of bodies in the rubble of the city remains shrouded in uncertainty. With communications crippled, residents in hiding, the situation is blur.

That must be the carnage aftermath of any ugly war..

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Hello Kitty 321

If Mariupol surrendered, that would mean an end to casualties. Zelenskyy seems to be more interested in scoring PR points than in saving the lives of the people.

No. It would mean that Putin will treat all Ukrainian cities like Mariupol. Bomb them to pieces with little troop cost. If they have to put troops into Mariupol and the cost is high, then he will abandon this way of taking cities. It's tragic, but crucial that Mariupol fights to discourage Putin doing the same to other cities.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

In this wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion in regard to the number (which is 10s of 1000s) would you be so as to cite exactly where this quote you cited is?

Posting links that disapprove your point is like shooting your self in the foot. Which coincidentally some tired Russian soldiers are doing to avoid having to kill civilians who look and sound like them.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

Then why has everything you have written on here since it started sought to deflect blame from Putin, placing it on either the Ukrainians or the US or NATO? Is Russia never to blame for the stuff Russia does in your worldview? I seriously don't get it.

Because the US/NATO et al have been attempting to provoke exactly what's happening now in Ukraine for the last 25 years. It's impossible (and disingenuous) to disconnect the Russian invasion from what's happened over the last 30 years, since the breakup of the Soviet Union. The neo-cons in Washington are more than happy to turn Ukraine into a Syria-in-Europe on the Russian doorstep. Why are you deflecting from the deliberate sacrifice of Ukraine to maintain US control of Europe? I seriously don't get it.

-14 ( +4 / -18 )

Because the US/NATO et al have been attempting to provoke exactly what's happening now in Ukraine for the last 25 years.

This is just BS. When has any US or NATO leader ever pursued a policy to deliberately provoke a Russian invasion of Ukraine???

Don't get me wrong, there is A LOT that one could criticize the US or NATO for over the past 30 years, but "NATO ignoring legitimate Russian security concerns" is not the same as "NATO provoking Russia into doing the unthinkable" as though Russia had no choice in the matter.

You are also ignoring the fact that Putin's ideology is driven by a lot of stuff completely unrelated to NATO - its mainly just Russian ultranationalist garbage dictating this. Ukraine wasn't about to join NATO - Putin had an effective veto over that thanks to his occupation of Crimea anyway. He sure doesn't care about the wellbeing of Russian speakers in Ukraine either. This is a war of national conquest now and that is not because of NATO, it is because of Putin.

 It's impossible (and disingenuous) to disconnect the Russian invasion from what's happened over the last 30 years, since the breakup of the Soviet Union. 

Yup. But, so? Its also disingenuous to pretend that anything that happened over the past 30 years justifies what Russia is doing today.

The neo-cons in Washington are more than happy to turn Ukraine into a Syria-in-Europe on the Russian doorstep.

Maybe, but the neo-cons haven't dictated US policy since Bush was turfed from office in 2009. Most of the people in the current administration would be perfectly happy if Russia simply stopped invading Ukraine, which seems a perfectly reasonable position to take on this to me.

Why are you deflecting from the deliberate sacrifice of Ukraine to maintain US control of Europe?

Because its Russia that invaded the Ukraine for Christ's sake. Wake up.

10 ( +12 / -2 )

Of course the extent is known if no one makes attempts to stop them. And if you are honest to yourself, you would surely agree that it is also not looking good for the other areas, that are not affected by the war directly but by massive boomerang effects from the sanctions and the unlimited refugee influx streams not only from Ukraine. Even among them you will find infiltration from Russia and affiliated areas like Africa or Syria and the like. That’s a complete global mess that has been started, not only a local one in Donbas or Eastern Ukraine and some neighboring countries in Eastern Europe. My guess is you still underestimate that all by quite a factor.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Because the US/NATO et al have been attempting to provoke exactly what's happening now in Ukraine for the last 25 years.

Complete nonsense. Ukraine has barely been on the radar of most nations' foreign policy. A desperate attempt to justify an unjust invasion.

Sort of like me beating up my neighbour's wife because she is thinking about taking judo lessons.

9 ( +10 / -1 )

Raineyday: Its also disingenuous to pretend that anything that happened over the past 30 years justifies what Russia is doing today.

Alfie shouldn't be taken seriously. He's just looking for attention.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

@Alfie

It's bizarre that this AP article makes no mention of the 120,000 ethnic Greeks who live in Mariupol. 

Probably because there isn't nearly that number of Greeks in this city of 420,000. Wiki puts the number at around 4,000, about 4 percent of the population.

Your bizarre, hard-core opinions are based on serious misinformation.

12 ( +13 / -1 )

Alfie shouldn't be taken seriously. He's just looking for attention.

No, I get plenty of attention at home, thank you. And I rarely post on such topics on this site because of the immediate "shoot the messenger" response - one guy was demanding "loyalty oaths" against Putin on here when the war started. Never mind that such luminaries as US diplomat George Kennan were predicting grievous events in eastern Europe over NATO expansion 25 years ago:

https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/591787-what-would-george-kennan-say-about-ukraine

"Kennan’s critique of a divided Europe survived even the fall of the Soviet Union. Writing in 1997 at age 92, he declared that expanding NATO to the east “ would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era.”

“Such a decision,” he went on, “may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations.”

Were he with us today, Kennan would undoubtedly say “I told you so."

But hey, whatever. Carry on with your narrative management, Putin is an insane dictator, there are no neo-Nazis in the Ukraine, Russia has no legitimate security concerns, the world is united behind Team Biden blah blah blah.

-12 ( +3 / -15 )

"Kennan’s critique of a divided Europe survived even the fall of the Soviet Union. Writing in 1997 at age 92, he declared that expanding NATO to the east “ would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era.”

Yes, to back that up, there was a heated exchange between Yeltsin and B Clinton when he was President. Yeltsin yelled at him in public about NATO expansion and Bill was embarrassed.

So this goes way back.

As I said before, anyone shocked, sad, angry at Putin’s invasion needs to understand geopolitics better.

-11 ( +1 / -12 )

"How dare you expand NATO!" while demonstrating to everyone the benefits of NATO membership. Savvy. Genius.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Alfie Noakes

“Such a decision,” he went on, “may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations.”

As it turns out, Kennan was completely wrong. Russian opinion hasn't been inflamed and they aren't anti-Western. Nor have the Russians become more militaristic.

Putin on the other hand has long decried the loss of the old Soviet countries and has been bent on an imperialistic retake of those countries. He originally had a puppet in Ukraine and he has one in Belarus.

This invasion is a Russian invasion, it's a Putin invasion and while he hated NATO, he wasn't threatened by it except to his pride.

7 ( +10 / -3 )

A war crime redefined = Mariupol.

Putin is doing to Mariupol, ironically the Ukrainian city with the highest percentage of ethnic Russians, what Hitler attempted to do to Leningrad.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

"Kennan’s critique of a divided Europe survived even the fall of the Soviet Union. Writing in 1997 at age 92, he declared that expanding NATO to the east “ would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era.”

“Such a decision,” he went on, “may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations.”

Well, OK, lets take that and run with it. Lets say the world had taken Kennan's advice 25 years ago. No NATO expansion. Eastern Europe is on its own.

What would that have actually changed?

The collapse of the Soviet Union had already happened. The collapse of the Russian economy had already happened too, and would be made worse by the impact of the 1998 financial crisis, none of this in any way related to NATO.

Russia's economy and politics would likewise have been taken over by corrupt oligarchs just the same as it was in our own timeline. The wars in Chenchnya would have likely played out the same too, as would the rise of Putin and the authoritarian kleptocracy he oversees, which was driven by how Russia actually works and not by what NATO does.

The grievances against the west over the humiliation of the demise of Soviet power coupled with the unfulfilled promises of freedom and prosperity that run through Russian politics would have remained the same. The impulses of Russian leadership to blame the west for everything bad in Russia would likewise have remained the same.

The only real difference would be that instead of just Ukraine all of Eastern Europe would be available as targets when Putin decided it was time to "Make Russia Great Again" as he inevitably would, NATO expansion or no. Its what dictators with powerful militaries driven by ultranationalist ideologies and no real check on their power do when given the opportunity. He'd probably have moved on Ukraine a lot earlier and - there being nothing to stop him - he'd probably have made short work of the Baltics and Poland by now too.

I honestly do NOT see how THAT world would be better than the one we are in. Its just plain ignorant in the extreme to think that if NATO had just folded up or whatever in the 1990s, Russia would be a vibrant peaceful democracy today.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

Alfie NoakesToday  08:23 am JST

A Greek government official who was based in Mariupol was organising the evacuation of Greeks. He says the Russians were the ones blocking and attacking evacuations.

8 ( +11 / -3 )

Because the US/NATO et al have been attempting to provoke exactly what's happening now in Ukraine for the last 25 years. It's impossible (and disingenuous) to disconnect the Russian invasion from what's happened over the last 30 years

I agree with others, you desperately need attention.

Fact: 1 of 5 criterias for NATO membership is 'no unresolved/current territorial dispute'. Crimea, Donbas means it's impossible for Ukraine to become a member. Putin's invasion is pure evil aggression NOTHING to do with NATO, and I hope he and his henchmen faces war crimes charges asap.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

As I said before, anyone shocked, sad, angry at Putin’s invasion needs to understand geopolitics better.

In this very topic you said that neo-Nazis held significant control of the Ukranian government. Then you accepted that you were completely wrong.

And you're getting on other people's cases for not "understanding geopolitics"?

You might want to rethink a few things.

10 ( +13 / -3 )

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