Fighting rages near Ukrainian capital; port city under siege

Bronco - maybe you and your country would be ok with surrendering to Putin's Russia, but that doesn't seem to be what the Ukrainians desire. Maybe at some point, but not today.

yesterday I watched a story a bout a 91 years YOUNG woman in the city of Kharkiv - Ukraine her name is Alvetina Shanina she is too fragile to be moved to a shelter she staying under siege in her apartment cold and hungry can't talk but her daughter explained that her mother thinks that the Nazis are bombing and attacking them because as a little girls she lived through the siege of Leningrad by the Nazis

Zelensky will eventually have to agree to these terms.

Those terms might please the Putin cult, and others in the globe's anti-democracy pro-authoritarian herds. But given Ukraine is the First Putin War, aka Putin War1, agreeing to them would set a bad precedent and worry other former SSRs that Putin and his Imperium have their WMD's aimed at. What countries are the Putin cultists and others in th extreme right cheering to be invaded next? Where will PutinWar2 be held? And will Putin's keyboard warriors be willing to go there to help their masters, or will they stay in a safe place glorying in the misery Russians are creating for some group they consider to be 'others'?

Those terms might please the Putin cult, and others in the globe's anti-democracy pro-authoritarian herds.

Yup. You stand up to bullies now, or you stand up to them later.

After Russia alleged that there was a 'biological research facility' in Ukraine, the US government's Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland testified before a Senate Foreign Relation Committee hearing in Washington, DC. Before the Committee, Nuland said that the United States was working with Ukraine to prevent invading Russian forces from seizing biological research material. The Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs expressed her apprehensions that Russian forces are trying to gain control of biological research facilities within Ukraine.

So the US admits there are US funded biological research facilities in Ukraine but they are not bioweapon labs.

Anyone have a take on this? That they are bioweapon labs is Russian propaganda but why biological research facilities in Ukraine?

Why the concern the Russians can gain control of the facilities if they are not bioweapon labs? Because the Russians can use the research materials into bioweapons. Can the US also do the same?

Because of the ongoing crime against humanity and mass murderering by the Russians, started by their insane and full of madness leader Putin and his mass murdering Mob, many countries, also in Africa and Asia, will suffer from hunger.

Ukraine will be not able to deliver wheat (I am not sure if this is the correct english word), to the world anymore.

Now it is not anymore just a problem between Russia and Ukraine, now it is spreading among the whole world.

Many children all over the world will suffer from hunger because of these mass murdering Russian Mob.

According to some other news, Russia will fall back to the 1950s because of the sanctions.

There was a very long waiting line in front of Ikea and McDonalds in Moscow on their last opening day, because the Russians wants to eat a Burger from McDonalds and buy some kitchen things from Ikea for the last time.

Putin detroyed completely the nice and comfortable life of his own population.

I guess the Russians wish and hope that the world, the NATO, will jump in and stop this crazy madman Putin, and free the Russians from this massmurderer Putun and his Mob.

But also another big problem occured already: the image of the Russians are completey destroyed. Nobody in the world will trust them anymore and nobody will not do buisness with them anymore.

And even hate and violence against nice and peacefull Russians, who are living overseas, started already in some countries.

And this hate and violence against the peacefull Russian people living overseas, are the result from Putin's massmurdering in the Ukraine.

Zelensky's plan of dragging this out by handing out AK47s to kids, teenagers and even quickly released convicted felons is basically insane, and it also means that the Russian separatist regions will be bigger and might even include Kiev.

If you are not a patriot, do not have the guts to defend your nation, do not believe in freedom, and can live under fascism, fine - take the coward's approach.

Fortunately the Ukrainians are not.

Hoping and praying for the Ukrainians, I wish them well, and that they take out as many of the fascist invaders as possible.

It seems the Ukrainians would rather die on their feet than live on their knees.

Now it is not anymore just a problem between Russia and Ukraine, now it is spreading among the whole world.

Many children all over the world will suffer from hunger because of these mass murdering Russian Mob.

Experts say on the cusps of WWIII. We need to de-escalate and make sure it doesn't blow up.

I guess the Russians wish and hope that the world, the NATO, will jump in and stop this crazy madman Putin, and free the Russians from this massmurderer Putun and his Mob. 

Well, that’s a nice piece of warmongering propaganda. Odd you cared and spoke little when the Ukrainians, supplied by the west, were commuting crimes against humanity and murdering Russian-Ukrainian citizens. like you(maybe unknowingly), and NATO, and the rest of the west, was daring Putin to invade. They could have stopped this before it started but chose not to.

So the US admits there are US funded biological research facilities in Ukraine but they are not bioweapon labs.

Not just “US funded”, but DOD (Department of Defense) funded.

Zelensky's plan of dragging this out by handing out AK47s to kids, teenagers and even quickly released convicted felons is basically insane, and it also means that the Russian separatist regions will be bigger and might even include Kiev.

I disagree. If the Ukrainians do that then they would capitulate to Putin and his sick twisted demands, yes the odds look hopeless, but it’s their home, I personally would fight to the end and if you have to take it then you take it, I’m not going to give up and get on my knees and give it to you? What kind of person would do that? These people have been through enough throughout history and these people would rather die than to hand Putin their home and give in to what he wants.

According to some other news, Russia will fall back to the 1950s because of the sanctions.

Russia will be to a point ok because now they have China to back them and as Xi says “there is no limit to this relationship.” So it will be harder, but Putin probably thought this might happen and took the necessary precautions to safeguard his his country. This relationship is actually the worst case scenario for the world.

I've said before, Putin is going to do to Kiev what the Nazis did to Leningrad. Putin is from Leningrad, he knows what happened there and he also knows he doesn't want a Stalingrad. The problem is how will the world respond when Kiev is surrounded and comes under siege. Sit and watch? Come to aid and risk a war with this madman? No matter the scenario, this sucks big time.

Can the US also do the same?

Another whatabout to deflect from the horrors created by Putin's invading hordes. I guess that is to be expected from those who tried to get the poorly educated to believe Corona was not a serious problem for healthy people, and the virus mainly killed and sickened the obese, the elderly and people with underlying health problems, It shouldn't surprise anyone that those pushing eugenics are also supporting Putin's First War intended to eliminate a population of humans, after all extreme right wing flamers are a scourge, their messages a virus intended to further sicken and rile up the poorly educated.Most people in the west (seen as evil by the supporters of the new imperium) were pleased fascism was defeated in the 1940's, but now it's back with Putin the new Mussolini/Hitler. followed in ovine fashion by keyboard thugs, who seem to be pleased when 'others' i.e those seen to be different from them suffer. If the extreme right's idol Putin goes nuke, do his followers believe he will allow them to hide away in a fallout shelter built into of his palaces.

Those terms might please the Putin cult, and others in the globe's anti-democracy pro-authoritarian herds. But given Ukraine is the First Putin War, aka Putin War1, agreeing to them would set a bad precedent and worry other former SSRs that Putin and his Imperium have their WMD's aimed at. What countries are the Putin cultists and others in th extreme right cheering to be invaded next? Where will PutinWar2 be held? And will Putin's keyboard warriors be willing to go there to help their masters, or will they stay in a safe place glorying in the misery Russians are creating for some group they consider to be 'others'?

Probably for those idiots that do. But you shouldn’t waste your time on worrying about some idiots in Russia, China or beyond that support this incursion. Focus on the majority of people on the planet that condemn this guy and want to see and end to him. Idiots are going to do what they do, but we should worry about the real victims and that’s the Ukrainians.

President Xi and Chinese banks have refused to fund Putin.

I just saw that, I personally don’t believe Beijing will commit to this in the long run, BUT if it’s true then that would be significant.

The 4 terms offered by Putin are

the end of any military action against Russia,

recognition of Crimea as Russian territory,

the acknowledgement of the sovereignty of the Luhansk and Donetsk people's republics, and

amending Ukraine's constitution to solidify their standing as a neutral state serving as a buffer between Russia and NATO member states in eastern Europe.

Zelenskyy is in no position to comprise. Sadly, Ukraine has been wrecked by its own mafia- government greed. He should take the Israeli PM’s advice and surrender. Think of all the lives he will save.

We know it’s bad. It’s ugly. But be strong, Ukraine. You’re not alone and this is not gonna last forever.

...

... sharing this with my fellow JT readers :

“Why American veterans are answering a call to serve in Ukraine”

“I joined the Marine Corps to help innocent people and fight for freedom and I was raised that if someone needs help or is in danger you do whatever it takes to help and save them, even if it means your life,” said the Marine

“I was raised that freedom was everyone’s right and that right should be defended with every fiber of one’s being.”

he is one of an unknown number of Americans with military training who plan to travel to Ukraine to somehow help the local population

...

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy recently announced the creation of the International Legion of Territorial Defense for foreigners with military experience or medical training who want to support the Ukrainian military.

( ! )

commuting crimes against humanity and murdering Russian-Ukrainian citizens. like you(maybe unknowingly), and NATO, and the rest of the west, was daring Putin to invade. They could have stopped this before it started but chose not to.

Well that’s an unoriginal piece of fiction, No one “dared” Putin to invade. There was no murdering of Russian-Ukrainians (except by the Sparta battalion), no genocide, no neo-Nazi Ukrainian regime. No chem or bio-warfare labs (Novichok anybody?). And no one could’ve stopped this.

Fact - Putin started this war. Russian forces are the ones committing the crimes here and right now. Nobody forced them, nobody dared them, nobody attacked Russia.

Russia alone is responsible for this atrocity- not Ukraine, not the West. Russia Clear?

If Ukraine agrees to the terms now they can probably keep Kiev and even access to the sea.

Appeasement is a bad idea in my opinion. Also, the Ukrainian military is doing just fine, with a little help from friendly nations. Also, Russian-speaking Ukrainians do not necessarily want to be ruled by Putin any more than you would.

Why do you seem so keen to see Ukraine surrender? Where on the timeline in the run-up to and start of WWII would you have acknowledged that appeasement wasn't working?

@Bronco

Nobody in Ukraine wants this Russian scum in their lives.

Hopefully Putin and these Russian invaders will get their butts kicked . . . hard.

President Xi and Chinese banks have refused to fund Putin.

China collaborates with Russia since the two nations are neighbors. They have settled their territorial disputes and the two economies compliment each other. Russia is the world's largest producer and exporter of national resources while China is the world's largest manufactuer and in the near future, the world's biggest consumer. They help each other by developing a new bank-wire system (CIPS) that is an alternative to SWIFT. This allows the Chinese and Russian banks to operate together and companies to do deals more easily.

That said, the Chinese government will not put the country’s own financial interests at stake in any significant way to help Russia avoid sanctions. Whereas the Japanese are highly group (G7) conscious and conforming loyal followers, the Chinese are pragmatic, opportunistic followers of money. The US and EU are the largest trading partners for China. No one can replace these two; not Japan, not ASEAN, and certainly not Russia. The balancing act will become harder the longer the war continues.

Czechoslovakia is a thriving, productive and successful culture and country, 

No it isn’t.

Czechoslovakia is a thriving, productive and successful culture and country

Do Russians still see Czechoslovakia as a single country, and if they see it as productive and successful does that make Russians envious and want it to be one of the next places Putin invades in his Putin Wars. Will the Putin posters go fight for their idol inCzechoslovakia, Prague is a beautiful city, a good place to see the contrast between Soviet architecture and that before the Soviets came. Will Putin posters again start their posts claiming there are Nazis in Prague, that Russia needs to purge as an excuse for invading the next sovereign nations, too.

Sadly, Ukraine has been wrecked by its own mafia- government greed. He should take the Israeli PM’s advice and surrender. Think of all the lives he will save.

Preposterous. It’s not for the rest of us to say what Ukraine should do with a gun put to its head by criminals If it accepts the agreement won’t be worth the paper it’s written on since accepted under duress. And the NATO should then immediately offer Ukraine membership. And keep the sanctions where they are now.

If Ukraine refuses and Russia continues the war, the West should step up support with everything we’ve got and ratchet up the sanctions. And put in some red lines of our own.

Putin’s made clear what happens when you appease dictators.

If Ukraine refuses and Russia continues the war, the West should step up support with everything we’ve got and ratchet up the sanctions. And put in some red lines of our own.

Putin’s made clear what happens when you appease dictators.

I agree.

There is no chance that Russia can be reintegrated in the civilized world as long as Putin is at the helm. He is raising the specter of nuclear warfare in an unprovoked war of conquest, which he doesn't even acknowledge to be a war. Such contempt for all the people of this world cannot be tolerated.

A senior Russian diplomat warned that Moscow could attack foreign shipments of military equipment to Ukraine. 

The West should not allow Russia to set any red lines here. The response should be calmly stated any attack will be met.

Double the shipments. Give the Ukrainians everything they want.

There is no chance that Russia can be reintegrated in the civilized world as long as Putin is at the helm.

I am not so sure. Russia still holds some of the largest wheat supply and if not him, then who? The next person that replaces him will probably be no different. I’m quite sure Putin thinks about the future and has prepared for the future. And as long as Washington has weak leadership at the helm Putin and whoever succeeds him will always challenge the US.

He is raising the specter of nuclear warfare in an unprovoked war of conquest, which he doesn't even acknowledge to be a war. Such contempt for all the people of this world cannot be tolerated.

It shouldn’t, but unless a No Fly zone is established and either US or Europe engages Russia on some level, the Ukrainians will just have to fend for themselves. That’s the brutal reality.

I wonder what will happen if the Ukraine president got taken out or captured. Will the war end? What will happen to the government and who his successor will be? I hope he at least made a back-up plan.

The tightening of the Russian encirclement of Kiev is the direct consequence of the Ukrainians' failure or inability to obliterate the 40 km-long military convoy of sitting Russian ducks coming south from Belarus. Btw, why are we letting Belarus off the hook as a brazen enabler of Russian aggression and therefore a de facto enemy? If Russia can enter Ukraine with impunity, why not NATO take out the Minsk Mussolini in one or two days (with the support of the majority of Belorussians who do not want to live under Putinism ) as a menace to European security and as a "tit" for Putin's "tat"? And the West also has nukes to saber-rattle at Putin if he starts to whine and stamp his feet over the removal of his partner in crime from the world stage. What's good for the goose..."

I wonder what will happen if the Ukraine president got taken out or captured. Will the war end? What will happen to the government and who his successor will be? I hope he at least made a back-up plan.

I'm guessing that they have, just like all countries have succession plans in place. Why would you think Ukraine would be any different? And during a war, no less.

Time for some novichok in this madman's tea.

I think even Kremlin peeps are contemplating it.

The oligarchs certainly are.

bulletforputin

Can at least one person give a decent answer on what would be acceptable as an agreement for a cease fire. If that is not possible then at least say how long you are willing to have this war go-on. Each day is more death and more destruction.

How many ukranian lives is it worth for Crimea.

How many ukranian lives is it worth for the membership of NATO.

How many ukraninan lives is it worth Donbas.

There does need to be some movement on both sides and personally I think not being a member of NATO seems reasonable considering that Ukraine is not a member and it is unlikely that NATO would agree with it joining. Unless of course if NATO wants war.

To me it comes down to which parts of Ukraine are going to be recognised as russian. As people seem to have left the country during the war I can not see why once the regions have been agread that people move about a bit as an individual choice.

The anti-appeasment brigade need to actually put some cards on the table as it looks like all they are doing is pro-longing a war.

@us-rein

It is no longer 40km long and is no longer a convoy.

How many ukranian lives is it worth for Crimea.

How many ukranian lives is it worth for the membership of NATO.

How many ukraninan lives is it worth Donbas.

As part of the "anti-appeasement brigade" and not a Ukrainian, these are not for me to answer.

@N Night.

How to do propose to get novichok from Porton Down to Moscow?

@UCP

It is essentially upto Putin and Zelensky but many people on here seem to call-out appeasement and say very little of their own solution. You are right it is very much upto the ukrainian people and what they want to sacrifice.

However that changes if they expect others to die for them and the rest of the world to suffer. As it stands we have been pushed closer to WW3, countries around the world have spent tax-payers money (that could help their own people) to assist ukraine and we are looking at large parts of the world not being fed. These are all part of the consideration.

It is easy to tell people they are wrong on a forum. Much harder to come up with a solution.

Hopefully Putin and these Russian invaders will get their butts kicked . . . hard.

They will, it will take time though. The myth of Russia's Military might is just a myth. Putin's army is now showing the world they know nothing of combat strategy. Ukraine has passion, Russia does not.

shame on Russia and all Russians

@Nator

Good. I am glad that we can agree that it is up to the Ukrainians. If Ukraine wishes to surrender and submit to Putin tomorrow for any reason whatsoever, then that is up to them.

I don't expect anyone else to die for them. I am ok with my taxpayer money going to support them both for lethal and non-lethal assistance.

As I said, I can't speak for Ukraine, but if it were my own country, I would not negotiate with invaders and would-be conquerors. Rewarding appeasement leads to more of the behavior that you are rewarding. Also, we have seen that Putin lies shamelessly and his word doesn't amount to much. What about you? What if it were your country being invaded by Putin?

NATO, just finish this off....

Most of the Ukrainian government probably wants to make a peace agreement with the Russians but Zelensky, backed by the US, keeps ratcheting up the rhetoric.

What special insights do you have that would suggest the Ukrainian government wants to surrender to the Russians?

@CHP

What insights do any of us have? I can only be guided by the news-media. For me that is Al-J. I am also guided by what UK MP's say in parliament. There is very little actual/factual information for us.

One thing that does bother me is why the picture frame (at least it looks like one) is empty behind zelenky. It seems to be a strange back-drop and my tin-hat thinks it is a signal to NATO leaders of some sort.

Al-J did have a ukrainian yesterday saying he was fed-up with the war and just wants it to stop. One person on a news is not a nation but it does indicate not everyone wants to continue.

There is very little actual/factual information for us.

There is a whole lot of first-hand information out there if you care to look. Of course, you have to be skeptical and take claims with a grain of salt, but it's there.

I am sure most people want the war to stop, but that doesn't mean they want to surrender to Putin either.

That's what General Tito said to the Japanese people

General Tito was the Yugoslav leader. His henchmen shot more than a few bullets an my old man on duty with the US Army around Trieste, there to enforce a UN sponsored plebiscite on the future of that area in the aftermath of WWII.

That's what General Tito said to the Japanese people who thought that surrender was the sensible option.

I'm assuming General Tito made that remark in Serbo-Croat. Did any Japanese understand him?

Not even Saddam Hussein was enough of a madman to resort to arming average Iraqi civilians with AK47s and telling them to engage trained soldiers in battle.

That exact tactic worked pretty well for the Finns when they defeated the invading Soviet Army in 1939. Read about the "Winter War". The invasion of Ukraine is playing out much like the Soviet invasion of Finland. Little Finland with a population of a couple of million curb stomped the mighty Red Army, fought them to a standstill. Farmers who knew the land fought an effective guerilla campaign inventing the Molotov Cocktail to defeat Soviet tanks.

Some here speak the language of Neville Chamberlain and his "peace in our time" lie. Appeasing a tyrant only invites more invasions and more suffering. Better for all to stop the Russians in Ukraine because if he wins there it is 100% certain he will attack NATO members next. One can fight or one can surrender and become a slave. I would rather die than become enslaved so for me I would take my chances fighting. I was on the pointy end as a Navy pilot willing to take that risk and still support the military otherwise (injuries took me out of the cockpit). Those who think you can compromise with the kind of person Vladimir Putin is are not students of history. He only understands countervailing power. Look weak and he will attack in earnest, just like a predatory animal picks off the weaklings in the herd.

However that changes if they expect others to die for them and the rest of the world to suffer. 

If NATO becomes involved it will be because the governments of the member nations feel their own territorial integrity is threatened. At that point they are acting for their own people. Your comment however seems to reflect no concept of shared danger or what constitutes a just society. Europe looked the other way as Hitler gobbled up neighboring regions. Not their problem, didn't want to start a war. Look where that got them! Germany should have been dealt with as soon as they took Sudetenland. Well Russia needs to be stopped in the Ukraine. If the NATO doesn't then the Russians will just keep attacking until they are eventually defeated. Would you rather defeat them in Ukraine, or in oh say Germany?

Bronco - curious, what are your main sources for these claims?

The fact that a large portion of the Ukraine's military, which is over 1 million soldiers has not been deployed to engage the Russians.

Ukraine active, regular forces are a lot less than that.

The capital city is surrounded.

No, it is not. There is a large Russian force to the northwest, and some to the northeast, but Kyiv is by no means surrounded. There are plenty of OSINT war maps out there. Here is one, but the others are largely the same. https://liveuamap.com/ Are they all wrong? Maybe, but that's the thing with open sourcing, is that it is self-correcting with new info.

Where is Ukraine's military, they outnumber the Russians 7 to 1.

They regular forces don't outnumber the Russians by 7 to 1. And they are quite active and fighting for their country. I could be wrong, of course, but I don't see them laying down anytime soon. If Russia somehow manages to decapitate the leadership, then I could see Ukrainian partisans bloodying the nose of any Russian occupiers or Russia-installed puppet regime for some time to come.

Admittedly, the Ukrainian Azov Battalion, which is essentially a private army, is fighting hard, but where are regular Ukrainian tank battalions and armoured units?

Turning Russian conscripts into sunflowers. Curious, where are you getting your info about the Azov Battalian

Why haven't the Ukrainians fired a single rocket into Russia despite having the capacity to do so.

They don't really need to right now. The fight is in Ukraine.

Is Russia still “losing” this like the left is claiming?

Is Russia still “losing” this like the left is claiming?

The "winner" and the "loser" may not be known for some time, and may not be as clear as anyone on any side would like. Or it could finish tomorrow. None of us have a crystal ball.

Is Russia still “losing” this like the left is claiming?

It’s a very kindergarten, black and white world you live in. Left and right. Cosy no doubt.

Remember ‘mission accomplished’ in Iraq?

Putin thought Ukraine would be a 48-hour walk over. 

Actually that’s what that fat US general said but he gave it 72 hours.

with allies like this guy who needs enemies.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/gen-milley-says-kyiv-could-fall-within-72-hours-if-russia-decides-to-invade-ukraine-sources

Putin thought Ukraine would be a 48-hour walk over. 

I think a lot of people underestimated the Ukrainian resolve and also the incompetence of the Russians. It's coming out that a lot of Russians really thought that they would be greeted warmly as liberators.

General Tito? I think you've mixed up your your Titos and your Tojos.

Thanks for clearing that one up. I did not know what to make of it, lol

Why haven't the Ukrainians fired a single rocket into Russia despite having the capacity to do so.

The only rockets in the Ukrainian Army are older versions of the short range Grad series (aka the Stalin Organ), which they have been using regularly. Ukraine surrendered all of its intermediate and long range missiles when it surrendered the nuclear weapons left over from the USSR. It has never replaced these. There were plans for two new ballistic rockets but neither was completed when Russia invaded.

Grads were used to hit and possibly sink a Russian patrol ship off Odessa. Here is one of many links with video of the engagement.

https://www.navaltoday.com/2022/03/08/ukraine-hits-russian-navys-warship-in-black-sea/