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Johnson's Brexit plans in crisis after 3rd defeat in 2 days

142 Comments
By JILL LAWLESS and DANICA KIRKA

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What seems to be lost in all the reporting and politics is that the Exit vote was advisory. It was a snap shot in time. And that some of the politicians involved were dishonest concerning the future of GB after the exit. Time for a new public vote. GB needs to clip the wings of the British Trumpies.

18 ( +29 / -11 )

But if they can’t get out of Europe, how will the rich avoid paying taxes once the new EU law kicks in? Won’t somebody think of the wealthy?

18 ( +20 / -2 )

Disgraceful Rees Mogg showing utter contempt for the people by slouching like an entitled teenager. And then slagging off Charles Stewart Parnell. Showing utter contempt for Ireland.

15 ( +15 / -0 )

The bill would require the government to ask the EU to delay Brexit until Jan 31, 2020

NO, NO, NO, NO. I am sick of these people. Do they think the world revolves around them? How many times are they going to ask for postponement? The EU is sick and tired of their endless drama. Just get OUT already. Disorganized bunch of UNELECTED clowns. Some of the English folks here get angry at me for saying that UK is run by unelected Lords, but it's true. Majority of UK politicians ARE unelected Lords. The PM is not elected either.

Another thing i find similar between England and Japan is that there is no communication between the different classes of society. They all live in a bubble of their own and never communicate or even know what's happening on the other side. They just want to take power of the central government and impose their will on the rest of the population. In the US for example different groups usually aim at persuading the rest of society to join their cause. There is a lot of communication happening. All efforts are concentrated toward changing society, to get more people on board with you. Wheres in England and in Japan, all efforts are towards getting the power of the central government so one group can impose their will on the rest of society. It's almost like they don't think there is point in talking, the other side is beneath them. I see this trait in many English people too. They read the first sentence of what i say, disagree with it, and stop reading the rest. Very quick to judge and closed to receiving new information. I imagine this is a mini model of their whole society. It's very hard to progress and reach a consensus if you don't TALK.

Why isn't Boris and these other clowns talking with each other so they can solve their conflicts and reach a consensus? I don't see any communication happening neither within nor outside the government. I see power struggle. Everything is so vague and unclear, just like in Japan.

-5 ( +11 / -16 )

Time for a new public vote. GB needs to clip the wings of the British Trumpies.

Although you could also argue that the result of a second referendum is only advisory, and therefore still proceed with Brexit.

I want one, on the ground that the margin of victory in the first was not material enough for such a material change and that parliament is unable to make up its mind. I think it will be a clear majority for Remain.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

But if they can’t get out of Europe, how will the rich avoid paying taxes once the new EU law kicks in? Won’t somebody think of the wealthy?

Boom, there it is! Among other things Brexit is about maintaining London's position as money-laundering capital of the world.

And for those in any doubt as to the utter incompetence of those leading the Johnson regime, here's Andrea Leadsom live on TV in June 2016, during the run up to the referendum. It's difficult to tell whether she simply has no idea what she's talking about or whether she's just lying. Either way, programme host Andrew Neill can barely believe what she's saying and asks her to repeat several times. Even the guy on her right feels embarrasssed for her....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noK4OJOjmVk&feature=youtu.be

As if that weren't bad enough, there's this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6LVNpfES8k

Around the same time, during the Brexit referendum lead up, Leadsom appeared on the Newsnight programme with Pascal Lamy, former Director General of the World Trade Organisation and European Commissioner for Trade. That's a man who spent 20 years in trade negotiations. Within 3 minutes Lamy realises Leadsom has no idea what she's talking about, and gives her a lecture as if he were dealing with a child.

Andrea Leadsom is now Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. You couldn't make it up...

10 ( +13 / -3 )

Great to see larger scale public involvement without the ring of that truncheon thing.

An example of people in the 'west' using their rights in support of democracy. Sharp contrast to some non-democratic, non-'western' nations.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

@coffee

Yesterday you said:

Criticizing the government is a taboo in England, because you will immediately be called "anti-British" traitor

Which is nonsense.

Today you're saying

Very quick to judge and closed to receiving new information

Repeating the same thing over and over again isn't new information, it's just repetition. You really need to get over this Farage thing, it's kind of embarrassing now.

10 ( +15 / -5 )

you could also argue that the result of a second referendum is only advisory

Whether a referendum is advisory or legally binding depends on the wording of the legislation authorising the referendum. Unless the legislation specifically states that the referendum in question is legally binding, it is by definition advisory.

All that's necessary is for legislation to be drawn up authorising a legally-binding referendum. Any such legislation would of course also contain safeguards, including a minimum turnout, a minimum vote and the inclusion in the wording of the referendum of viable alternative choices.

A proper referendum would be legally binding.

And Remain would win.

And Leave would howl that it wasn't fair because a scrape-through 52% majority based on lies and more lies wasn't enough to trigger earth-shaking changes.

Invalid CSRF

8 ( +10 / -2 )

IloveCoffeeToday  07:44 am JST

"Some of the English folks here get angry at me for saying that UK is run by unelected Lords, but it's true."*

Rubbish. Don't you know what the House of Commons is?

Majority of UK politicians ARE unelected Lords.

Who can't stop legislation voted for by the House of Commons and never get appointed to senior Cabinet positions.

The PM is not elected either.

The PM is elected the same way as any other member of the House of Commons.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

PM Bozo ain't no Admiral Nelson!

PM Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson has suffered so many major defeats in such a short time and his ship hasn't got out of port.

Yesterday, in the commons Prime Minister's Question Time he was both sexist and racist with his replies. Attacking Indians and muslims on their clothes and calling female politicians "she" which is impolite and not used.

The House of Commons is the only circus in town.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

@Alfie and lest we forget, Leadsom had family members directly implicated by the Panama Paradise Papers leak. Surprised that was swept under the rug so quickly to be honest, because it paints a pretty clear picture as to why so many prominent Brexiteers wanted out of Europe before the new tax avoidance regulations take effect.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Boris read Classics at university and probably saw himself as a hero, coming in and slicing through the Gordian Knot of Brexit like Alexander the Great. Looks like he was reading the wrong classical allusion, since the only thing he's got since becoming PM is a right old shellacking from the gods for the unforgivable sin of hubris.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Here's a bold prediction:

There will be no Brexit. Even Tories aren't that stupid.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Won’t somebody think of the wealthy?

Best comment of the month so far.

Yeah. I'm gonna steal that.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Hahahaha !!!.. The brexit bozos are the clowns of Europe !!..

Repeat the public vote and watch the end of that brexit stupidity !!..

5 ( +8 / -3 )

yildirayToday 08:19 am JST

@Alfie and lest we forget, Leadsom had family members directly implicated by the Panama Paradise Papers leak. Surprised that was swept under the rug so quickly to be honest, because it paints a pretty clear picture as to why so many prominent Brexiteers wanted out of Europe before the new tax avoidance regulations take effect.

There's so much dirt it's difficult to keep track of it all.....

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Very quick to judge and closed to receiving new information

I’m open to receiving new information but completely inaccurate information is another matter.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

I think we're seeing the limits of direct/western style democracy here; we the ppl don't really decide the laws, what we want for our country & how to do it, we elect ppl hoping they'll do what they said they'd do should they get elected.

The dutch & french also got shafted in 2005 when they voted against the euro constitution; euro govts went ahead, changed the wording, called it treaty rather than constitution and basically ignored the results of the referendums.

Same is happening here, we're told 'in the interest of the nation', the greatest good for the greatest number etc, which may well be true but it's still pretty pathetic and imo unethical, whatever that means in politics these days. Saying NO to a GE means that the brexit referendum was never about democracy, 'taking back control' (lol), sovereignty etc. Just one big farce.

Don't think anyone should be celebrating right now.

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

IloveCoffeeToday  07:44 am JST

I see this trait in many English people too. They read the first sentence of what i say, disagree with it, and stop reading the rest.

Why bother reading any more when it's obvious from the first sentence that it's just going to be screeds and screeds of Anglo-phobic drivel?

7 ( +10 / -3 )

The brexit bozos are the clowns of Europe !!..

The Brexit supporters are the trumpsters of Europe and equally embarrassing!

6 ( +9 / -3 )

There will be a Brexit once Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party candidates combine with the leave Tories.

There is a will to leave the EU that has yet to be expressed.

-8 ( +2 / -10 )

There will be a Brexit once Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party candidates combine with the leave Tories.

What do you mean here? Mass defections to Farage’s party? Do you think they’ll bring some policies with them?

I heard Farage say he plans to run candidates in every constituency in the next general election. Farage has always had extreme nutters in tow.

Get ready for lots of ‘he/she doesn’t reflect the will of the party’ when someone forgets to take the meds. He was well practiced in this role when his UKIP nutters ran through the institution naked.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Is Johnson using no deal as a means to extract concessions from the EU?

3 ( +3 / -0 )

kurisupisuToday  09:43 am JST

There will be a Brexit once Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party candidates combine with the leave Tories.

How? The leave Tories have demonstrated over the past three years that they're not up to the job and I wouldn't personally rate the Brexit Party's chances of winning any seats very highly, no matter how well they did in the European Parliament elections.

There is a will to leave the EU that has yet to be expressed.

There is also a will to stay in the EU. That will also be expressed.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

This is so humiliating to the UK. This whole brexit clown car. All we need now is the Benny Hill Show tune

10 ( +10 / -0 )

Johnson has no plan and no intention to renegotiate a new deal. Labour wisely not accepting his bait of a general election until no-deal safely off the agenda. Then there will be an election. Boris' current stance will see him safe from losing any seats to Brexit, but he will lose dozens of seats to the LibDems and SNP. Labour will lose a handful of seats to the LibDems and SNP, and possibly one or two to Brexit. Outcome? A Labour/LibDem/SNP coalition and a new referendum which will give a resoundingly Remain result. The icing on the cake will be if Johnson and Rees-Mogg lose their seats and Farage fails to win one for the 8th time. All very possible. The price of SNP involvement will be a new Scottish independence referendum. Worth paying.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Vested interests win time and again.  And Corbyn, our Socialist messiah, helping them.  This whole thing is a farce.  an d the hypocrisy of the political classes in the UK is staggering.

election is the only way out.  so we can have another hung parliament.  and soldier on with this nonsense for another few years.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

And that some of the politicians involved were dishonest concerning the future of GB after the exit

As if the remainer politicians were all honest.

The U.K. voted to leave. This should have been carried out, deal or no deal with the globalist EU at the end of March.

-11 ( +2 / -13 )

SerranoToday  10:35 am JST

And that some of the politicians involved were dishonest concerning the future of GB after the exit

As if the remainer politicians were all honest.

Can you cite any examples of remainer politicians' dishonesty?

The U.K. voted to leave. This should have been carried out, deal or no deal with the globalist EU at the end of March.

Yes.... unfortunately the politicians who convinced the U.K. to vote leave were brazen charlatans who talked a good fight but didn't have any idea what to do next if the leave campaign did actually win. "Britain Trump" wasn't up to the job when he wussed out of the Tory leadership election to replace David Cameron. He's not up to the job now either.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

“[Boris Johnson’s] in there. I watched him this morning. He's in there fighting,” Trump said. “And he knows how to win. Boris knows how to win. Don't worry about him. He's going to be OK.”

After three defeats in the House of Commons this is just hilarious.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

I believe that was Johnson's third day in Parliament as PM. He's already a lame duck, no majority, twenty odd fewer MPs, lies about ongoing backstop negotiations exposed, and soon-to-be legally bound to ask for another extension. How quickly it has all unravelled.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Did anyone notice how Lying Johnson, when criticising Corbyn, said that remaining in the EU after 31st October would cost the UK 1 billion pounds a month? That's substantially less than the 350 million a week figure Lying Johnson had on his campaign bus. The true figure is less than 1 billion a month.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

For people in the U.K. - you do realize any deal you can get at this point is going to screw you over anyway? Have your hard Brexit, take the pain as it is, then deal with things afterward. Fire up the engines of diplomacy and strike trade deals with non-EU states instead. Boris can make a deal with Trump that's lucrative for the U.K. Heck, we'll throw in goodies just to disgrace the EU at this point simply because it'll be amusing. Heck, Germany's heading toward recession right now, strike while the iron's hot. The U.K. has an advantage and it's not using it.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

I watched some of the "debate" in Commons on TV yesterday. I thought Johnson's performance was truly underwhelming, all bluster and refusal to give straight answers to straight questions. By contrast Corbyn seemed calm and focused.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

For non-UK readers willing to listen, Britain has not left the EU because the negotiated deal was voted down by Brexiteers themselves, notably the ERG wing of the Conservative Party. They gambled on getting a more extreme version of Brexit. This gamble stretched things out and is now blowing up spectacularly. The opposition tried to pass various weaker forms of Brexit through indicative votes back in March, but they were voted down too, again by Brexiteers pushing for a different version.

So, the simple answer is that Parliament has never been able to "get on with it" because it was never clear what "it" was. British people narrowly vote to "Leave". They were never then asked what this meant. Like "utsukushiikuni Nihon" and MAGA, to achieve things in politics, you need details. Without them, you just have empty slogans.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Boris Johnson rolled the dice on the belief that comrade corbyn, small c, would have the courage of conviction.

corbyn is and will always be a back bench nobody, that Ed Miliband let the political window open for coward corbyn to politically burgle office of sortsm coward corbyn no more no less. is unwilling to fight for office, stand up straigh,t don't hide behind fakery and lies.

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

sorry ll over the place on a tram

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

SerranoToday  11:33 am JST

For people in the U.K...

Why do you care?

Boris can make a deal with Trump...

Ah, there we are.

...that's lucrative for the U.K.

Oh really.

7 ( +10 / -3 )

At least Johnson can boast a 100% record in the Commons.

Acting like a Poundland dictator by proroguing Parliament alienated even his most slavish supporters. Relying on the unelected mendacious Leave campaigner Dominic Cummings to sort out this mess for him was a fatal mistake. Cummings was reported by the Daily Telegraph as saying Johnson's so called Brexit negotiations are a 'sham'.

The Tories have turned against Johnson, even Brexit voters who expressed support are disgusted by his actions and his incompetence.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Have more respect for Tony Blair that corbyn and that is saying something. Because I believe that Blair should be locked up.

You know that Neil Kinnock silly boy son is attempting to resurrect May's deal? Ranting I know

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Boris can make a deal with Trump that's lucrative for the U.K.

Or most likely is that Trump will use our desperation to screw Britain. That man is no friend of the UK and will happily betray us.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

cleo - And Leave would howl that it wasn't fair because a scrape-through 52% majority based on lies and more lies wasn't enough to trigger earth-shaking changes.

Why would anyone expect a democracy to follow the will of the people just because a 52% majority of voters told them to do so? Many elected representatives refused to leave during May's term, and they're still refusing to leave during Johnson's term. It seems that it's the hurt feelings of the 48% minority that is truly important. As every progressive knows, if one person objects to the actions of others, then everyone else must submit to the demands of the individual.

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

Can you cite any examples of remainer politicians' dishonesty?

Yep, they said the U.K. would be better off under the thumb of the unelected globalists in Brussels.

Boris can make a deal with Trump...

...that's lucrative for the U.K.

Oh really.

Yep!

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

Boris can make a deal with Trump...

Which the next US president will just tear apart, in destroying Trump's legacy.

Why would anyone waste time negotiating with the US when the agreement is only as good as the current admin?

8 ( +10 / -2 )

Johnson: we will leave the EU with or without a deal

 Corbyn: checkmate MF

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Boris can make a deal with Trump that's lucrative for the U.K.

Why would ‘America first’ Trump give a good deal to a country in a poor position to negotiate?

You seem very sure about this good deal and obviously know what will be on the table. Please lay out in what ways this deal ( details on specific areas would be very welcome ) will benefit the UK.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

For non-UK readers willing to listen, Britain has not left the EU because the negotiated deal was voted down by Brexiteers themselves, notably the ERG wing of the Conservative Party. They gambled on getting a more extreme version of Brexit. This gamble stretched things out and is now blowing up spectacularly. The opposition tried to pass various weaker forms of Brexit through indicative votes back in March, but they were voted down too, again by Brexiteers pushing for a different version.

Even if every ERG member and every Brexit-supporting Tory had voted for May's deal, it still wouldn't have passed.

The numbers weren't enough because of the Remain Tory members who voted against May's deal. Remain Tory members argued that staying in the EU was better than May's deal.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Boris can make a deal with Trump...No sorry UK is still a member state and I am to believe will always be a member state of the European Union.

Yes Boris Johnson will return to Brexit summit for Oct. 17 and will request an extension. However this time the commission could insist on a minimum time limit. I would in there position to shore up there Multiannual financial framework......A year yes 12 months minimum.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-budgetary-system/multiannual-financial-framework/

That cowardly corbyn has queered any future negotiations.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

arrestpaulToday  12:05 pm JST

Why would anyone expect a democracy to follow the will of the people just because a 52% majority of voters told them to do so? 

If that referendum had been legally binding the UK would be out of the EU. If the pro-Leave camp had come up with a clear and workable plan for Brexit it might have voted on and approved. Neither was the case.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

where are all those Brexiteers that thought the UK held all the cards in the EU negotiations. LOL

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Here's a bold prediction: There will be no Brexit. 

Looking more and more like it. Re-admission (sort of) talks will/would be interesting. Expecting/hoping for tough/strict conditions:

formal apology

cover all brexit related expenses incurred by the EU

promise to do better/try harder (as a EU member)

no special status ( re schengen, the euro etc). You're not that special and no, you're not Norway/Switz.

....

Not bothered whether the brits stay/leave the EU but if they do stay I want them to abide by the same rules & stop acting like a spoilt brat. You're either fully in or out. Is it too much to ask for?

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

That cowardly corbyn has queered any future negotiations.

You keep going on about Corbyn.

This mess was made by the Tories and made worse by the Tories.

They own this.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Why would anyone expect a democracy to follow the will of the people just because a 52% majority of voters told them to do so? 

This would make sense if it were a binding referendum. It’s not.

Why should people who didn’t participate due to it being non-binding be bound to it when they had no say in it. If it was to be binding, it should have been binding. It wasn’t binding and therefore isn’t binding.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Jimizo,

Corbyn could have stood up for what he believed in, that capital letter is out of respect for your opinion, only three days ago Corbyn welcomed an election, yet he ran for cover and closed the hatch.

I cannot abide cowards. Sorry my friend I an going to harp on. I think Corbyn is a cowardly tosser

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Vote Labour! - but not just yet.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Of course Corbyn was not going to fall for Johnson's feeble attempt to force a no-deal Brexit by means of tricky election timing. I guess there are people who don't understand that though.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

only three days ago Corbyn welcomed an election, yet he ran for cover and closed the hatch.

Tactical.

He wants to see Johnson flounder in his own incompetence, dishonesty and hypocrisy and then try to take him down after Johnson has confirmed all the worst predictions about his leadership.

The Tories own this mess.

Cameron gave us the referendum.

May made a pig’s ear of the negotiations after blowing a majority in an election she didn’t need to call.

Johnson has taken us to a whole new level of incompetence and he can’t control his cannibals.

Corbyn isn’t where your anger should be directed and I speak as someone who has criticized Corbyn quite a bit.

Vote Labour!-but not just yet.

Makes perfect sense to me.

How about Farage?

Vote Brexit Party! - no policies just yet.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Tactical.

Such things are usually lost on the electorate. If they don't vote for an election on Friday, or try to force it to take place after Oct 31 , to Labour voters, it will look like cowardice. It isn't a a sustainable pocitical position.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Boris can make a deal with Trump that's lucrative for the U.K.

Any deal made with Trump will be Merka First and will be lucrative only for the fat cats who are eager to escape from the EU's crack-down on corporate tax evasion (Yes, looking at you, Farage and Rees-Mogg).

The clueless turkeys who voted for Christmas will get chlorinated chicken, hormone-laced beef and plastic yellow 'cheese'. And horror of horrors, please don't let it happen, Hersey's 'chocolate'.

There is no cloud that has no silver lining, of course. The one good thing that will come from a 'lucrative' deal with Trump is that employment opportunities for medical workers will increase as the UK starts to battle a food poisoning epidemic of US proportions (currently 10 times more food poisoning cases in the US than in the UK).

There will also be more opportunities for ambulance-chasing lawyers to get compensation for affected families.

Higher sales of stomach medicines and toilet disinfectant.

Lucrative, indeed.

Such things are usually lost on the electorate.

Seems a lot is lost on the electorate.

Invalid CSRF

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Theeastisred

Honestly, Boris Johnson is irreverent, a political moment in time.

corbyn on the other hand is a pretend revolutionary 40 years beyond his sell by date. A fool awaiting to happen. .

When presented with a challenge corbyn runs and cowers under mummy's skirt.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Update:

Labour cave in after an intense filibuster from heroic Conservative peers. They have agreed to an election this side of October 31st in return for Conservative peers backing down.

(Conservative peers in HoL were going to filibuster up to Saturday to prevent bill passing through in time before proroguement)

This has been confirmed with reliable sources. More tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/MoggMentum/status/1169409471774416896

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

And for those who want to pay close attention as to why everything up to this point was a desired outcome:

https://twitter.com/AndrewMarr9/status/1169377286166126592

Key words: Kinnock amendment

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Tactical.

Such things are usually lost on the electorate. If they don't vote for an election on Friday, or try to force it to take place after Oct 31 , to Labour voters, it will look like cowardice. It isn't a a sustainable pocitical position.

It could be the wrong tactic but to call it cowardice is naive or partisan.

My take is waiting and watching what a travesty Johnson is as he bounces around is a good tactic.

Honestly, Boris Johnson is irreverent, a political moment in time.

A PM is not irrelevant and this moment in time is one of the most crucial in recent history.

I don’t understand your use of ‘on the other hand’ here. Are you saying the leader of the opposition is more relevant than the PM and is not ‘a political moment in time’?

This makes no sense to me.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

It could be the wrong tactic but to call it cowardice is naive or partisan.

I agree with you in that it is the right tactical choice, but it won't be perceived that way by Labour voters. I think that will damage them more than they realise.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Tangerine2000Today  01:29 pm JST

Update:

Labour cave in after an intense filibuster from heroic Conservative peers.

So what's this?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/05/brexit-lords-agree-to-push-through-bill-preventing-no-deal-by-end-of-friday

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49588186: Bill designed to stop no-deal 'will clear Lords'

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Some feverish re-writing of history going on on this page!

Meanwhile, back on this planet, Corbyn's decision to oppose the immediate election call fully vindicated.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

It's kind of weird hearing the Trump fans talking about their strong belief in respecting the popular vote.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

@Simon Foston

See 1:29pm

The Government deliberately filibustered for two reasons.

One: To get Labour to agree to an election before Oct 31.

Two: To swamp the Lords with amendments in order for Kinnock's to pass through unnoticed.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

Jimizo I believe you could be the same age as my father and hold concurrent political beliefs. Zichi, and Cleo are not maybe dissimilar I am a tad upset and am using unnecessary language time to walk away.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@Tangerine2000

Did you just link to Jacob Rees-Mogg’s Twitter account?

Mate...

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Did you just link to Jacob Rees-Mogg’s Twitter account?

Nope

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Did you just link to Jacob Rees-Mogg’s Twitter account?

Nope

What is that link?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

It just gets worse and worse. What's the point in all of this bickering and delaying?

The bill would require the government to ask the EU to delay Brexit until Jan 31, 2020, if it can't secure a deal with the bloc by late October.

We won't get a deal worth accepting. The EU have already said, repeatedly, that it won't renegotiate the deal it has presented. The deal that parliament already rejected 3 times and prompting Theresa May to give up as PM. Parliament knows this, so why are they trying to delude themselves that a better deal will arise? Our options are to take the deal that no-one wants, or go without a deal. Delaying until January won't do any good. No new deal will arise. There's no point in dragging this on indefinitely.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Tangerine2000Today  01:47 pm JST

@Simon Foston

See 1:29pm

The Government deliberately filibustered for two reasons.

Except that it appears no filibuster has taken place and the bill to prevent a no-deal Brexit will be ready for the Royal Assent by 5pm on Friday. I'm not sure how that differs from what your "reliable sources" say, but if one of them is Jacob Lounge Lizard Rees-Mogg I would treat them with caution.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

An attempt was made at a filibuster with 100 amendments by the likes of Michael Howard, but they've since given up. It's passed the Lords.

It seems like some people want to believe that this is another Conservative masterstroke. We'll know soon enough. Even if an election happens, Johnson is performing so badly that its hard to see him getting a majority. Expect to see lots of PMQs reruns. In three days in Parliament, Johnson has gone from asset to liability. He'll also be up against all of the government experts' warnings of shortages in the Yellowhammer document. Assuming of course that leaking it wasn't another Conservative masterstroke....

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Any deal made with Trump will be Merka First 

Of course! But it will also be good for the U.K. Right now the U.K. is getting screwed over by the EU.

It's kind of weird hearing the Trump fans talking about their strong belief in respecting the popular vote.

It's kind of weird trying to equate a referendum in the U.K. with the Electoral College vote system in the U.S. Two different things.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

What is that link?

Not Jacob Rees-Mogg's account.

As the profile for the account states:

A grassroots campaign promoting Jacob Rees-Mogg & Brexit. Independent of Jacob Rees-Mogg.

This account is very reliable.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Except that it appears no filibuster has taken place and the bill to prevent a no-deal Brexit will be ready for the Royal Assent by 5pm on Friday. I

They was a filibuster under way but they agreed to end it and let three bill pass. From what I understand it will be for an earlier election, but I'm not totally sure if this - it hasn't been confirmed.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

It's always cute to see Trump supporting morons opining on brexit.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

Johnson should just do as the law requires - ask the EU for an extension - by snail mail on 30 October.  The current law is BREXIT - deal or no deal on 31 October.  No response by the EU seals the deal.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

A grassroots campaign promoting Jacob Rees-Mogg & Brexit. Independent of Jacob Rees-Mogg.

This account is very reliable

lol

Nothing promoting J R-M is reliable, by definition

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Cleo, I get the distinct impression that any source which is not perfectly in line with your political view is automatically dismissed.

I am very happy to check what everyone on the political spectrum (including the Guardian) is saying.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

The only person who can ask the EU for an extension is the PM, whoever that may be. Boris will not do it willingly so he could simply resign.  Only the Conservative Party can elect their own leader, and the majority of them are pro-Brexit, so they'd simply elect Boris-2. That situation could be kept up until past October 31st when BREXIT has already happened.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Tangerine2000 -

 I get the distinct impression that any source which is not perfectly in line with your political view is automatically dismissed.

Nah, just the ones I check and see are full of what drops from the bovine bottom. I read the tweet you linked to - claims of 'reliable sources', but not a single source in sight. Just wishful thinking. And at the bottom of the thread, a retweet from Andrew Adonis - 'Government chief whip announces cave-in at 1:20am - they are lifting the filibuster after 10 hours, with a commitment that the EU bill will pass by 5pm Friday. We have stopped No Deal and we can now go home.'

After years of practice on emails from Nigerian princes and wealthy widows looking to donate their fortunes, I think I'm pretty good at spotting groundless rubbish that it's a waste of time to read. Like Standup4Brexit and Moggmentum.

Invalid CSRF

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Moggmentum.

So that’s how lying around in the Commons is described.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

So that’s how lying around in the Commons is described.

It was a bit strange, wasn't it?

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

It was a bit strange, wasn't it?

Arrogant and ill-mannered. Who the hell does he think he is?

Someone should have slapped him on the back of the head.

Tosser.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

JimizoToday  04:26 pm JST

It was a bit strange, wasn't it?

Arrogant and ill-mannered. Who the hell does he think he is?

Someone should have slapped him on the back of the head.

Tosser.

I daresay he's big pals with Dominic Cummings. Otherwise he might have been shown out of Parliament by armed police.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

When I looked at that Moggmentum (pukes) twitter account on my phone the header came up in Cyrillic. On this pc it seems "normal". Are the Russians making pro-Mogg twitter accounts now?

Speaking of Russia, it seems that the DCMS sub-committee on Disinformation is after having Dominic Cummings in for a little chat about his work for Vote Leave.

https://twitter.com/IanCLucas/status/1169283023419924481

What interesting times we live in....

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Ask any normal educated Brit is no deal brexit a good idea and they will all say no.

The only ones for a complete break away are older people harking for a time when brittania ruled the waves and insular xenophobes.

Seriously the EU are being kind to even entertain them

They have no plan. Nothing.

Boris the buffoon and his evil string puller Cummings

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Sounding a bit paranoid there, Alfie.

Can you see Russians right now? Are they in the room around us?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

The only ones for a complete break away are older people harking for a time when brittania ruled the waves and insular xenophobes.

This is untrue and unfair. Over 17 million people voted to leave (including my parents and many well-educated friends), are they all so? Would it surprise you if people had other reasons apart from xenophobia dreams of empire? I have never met anyone in favour of Leave who resembles your uninformed definition.

I have, however, met many people like you.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

You know once upon a time Socialism had a heart, Tony Benn, Peter Shore, Barbara Castle they would never run and hide behind the sofa like my Dad did once watching Doctor Who, sorry Dad, what is left is jeremy corbyn a frightened old fool.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

ClippetyClopToday  06:54 pm JST

"The only ones for a complete break away are older people harking for..."

This is untrue and unfair. Over 17 million people voted to leave (including my parents and many well-educated friends), are they all so?

I believe buchailldana was only referring to those in favour of leaving with no deal, hence the part that you didn't quote:

Ask any normal educated Brit is no deal brexit a good idea and they will all say no.

The implication seems to be that normal educated Brits might we

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Urgh. I need an edit function. Might well have voted to leave, but not without a mutually satisfactory deal for the UK and the EU.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

to Labour voters, it will look like cowardice

Nope.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Johnson's brother, Jo, has just announced he's had enough and is standing down as a Minister and MP.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Tangerine2000Today 06:51 pm JST

Sounding a bit paranoid there, Alfie.

I saw what I saw, a strange header in Cyrillic. Proper freaked me out, it did.

Can you see Russians right now? Are they in the room around us?

Now you're confusing me with your top journalist Paul Staines. If his wikipedia page is to be believed he's the one given to seeing things.

what is left is jeremy corbyn a frightened old fool.

Oh dear.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

The bother of Bozo Johnson, Jo Johnson has resigned from the cabinet over his Brexit opposition.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Boris-2. That situation could be kept up until past October 31st when BREXIT has already happened.

actually no it is now law that Brexit can only be concluded with a deal, Boris said hed follow the law and the constitution, any future PM that refuses to follow the law will be met with legal action. sorry there is now no legal option available for a No deal Brexit.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I saw what I saw, a strange header in Cyrillic. Proper freaked me out, it did.

Are you prone to seeing KGB agents on the street while on the way to work too?

@ClippetyClop

I have never met anyone in favour of Leave who resembles your uninformed definition.

Neither have I. In truth, they don't exist. It's just that some remainers like to paint a false picture of those who don't agree with them.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

The bother of Bozo Johnson, Jo Johnson has resigned from the cabinet over his Brexit opposition.

One MP quipped that he's resigned in order to spend less time with his family.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

Democracy 2019: The will of the people shall only apply if the liberal elites approve.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

I have never met anyone in favour of Leave who resembles your uninformed definition.

Neither have I. In truth, they don't exist.

They do.

I agree with your idea that all Brexiteers don’t fit that description ( my mother doesn’t fit that description) but have a listen to Majiid Nawaz and Nigel Farage on LBC. Some of the callers are pretty sinister in their ideas.

Not all Brexiteers are xenophobes or racists, but you can be sure that the lion’s share of racists and xenophobes voted out. Farage when he was in charge of UKIP was on almost permanent damage limitation alert as one headbanger after another came out with something outrageous.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

but have a listen to Majiid Nawaz and Nigel Farage on LBC. Some of the callers are pretty sinister in their ideas.

I have heard plenty of people who call up LBC pretending to be Brexiteers, but who are in fact Remainers. They usually do it for the James O'Brien show.

Fun fact: Did you know that LBC stopped uploading James O'Brien's shows to their YouTube channel because they were so deeply unpopular? Jacob Rees Mogg and Nigel Farage's shows are uploaded regularly.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

Another conservative MP joined the liberals.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Even fatty's brother has abandoned him.

Lying Johnson is toast.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Parliament is doing all it can to defy the will of the people. The elite and corporations are trying to wrest control of the nations destiny from the citizens. Johnson is doing the right thing by holding the politicians to account.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

I have heard plenty of people who call up LBC pretending to be Brexiteers, but who are in fact Remainers

Oh, the racist Brexiteers who call up are in fact remainers trying to make Brexiteers look bad. You have evidence of this of course.

Were the racists and bigots in UKIP also remainers who joined to make Brexiteers look bad?

Farage set up parties to the right of the Tories - the furthest right of all parties. It doesn’t mean all in those parties are racists but it is pretty obvious that this is the place where the racists are going to flock.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

WolfpackToday  10:59 pm JST

Parliament is doing all it can to defy the will of the people.

More self-righteous cant about the "will of the people." Coming from Trump supporters it indicates something of a double standard.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Not all Brexiteers are xenophobes or racists, but you can be sure that the lion’s share of racists and xenophobes voted out.

Yeah, I'm sure of that too, probably almost to a man. It justs gets a tedious hearing folk label the best part of 17 million ordinary citizens as uneducated, xenophobic, gullible etc without really knowing what they think. Like you said, it's our mums who voted to leave. Some people even think the words on the side of a bus caused it.

When all is said and done, they just voted to leave an economic union. We've made such hard work of this, I hope we fare better when a real crisis arrives.

Parliament is doing all it can to defy the will of the people.

It isn't. Brexit will happen, it's a debate about how. We don't have the luxury of an executive order. It would be interesting to see how your leader would do if he had to face his peers as often as a PM does.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Farage set up parties to the right of the Tories - the furthest right of all parties. It doesn’t mean all in those parties are racists but it is pretty obvious that this is the place where the racists are going to flock.

I am intrigued that you think that racist people only seem to exist the right of the political spectrum. Or you think that the majority of racists are usually on the right.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

The vast majority of the 17 million people who voted to leave are not extreme right voters nor racists, they are just people who want to leave the European Union which has been comlpletely drenched in corruption since the day it was founded.

The big question is will they be better for it and is a hard Brexit the best way to go about it  ?

Only time will tell...

0 ( +2 / -2 )

And it gets better every second.

"Boris Johnson news – live: Government in meltdown after PM's own brother quits in protest at his Brexit plan and Tory MPs turn on new leader"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-live-boris-johnson-speech-election-no-deal-corbyn-labour-latest-a9092441.html

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I am intrigued that you think that racist people only seem to exist the right of the political spectrum. Or you think that the majority of racists are usually on the right.

There are racists on the left - I know a few personally. I would say that the lion’s share of racists seem to be on the right. UKIP had a disproportionate number of racist headbangers and bigots as a minor party. Talk of ‘Bongo-bongo land’ and shooting poofters was a very UKIP phenomenon.

I’m intrigued by your claim that the racists and bigots calling into LBC are remainers posing as Brexiteers to make Brexiteers look bad. This claim requires evidence.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@ClippetyClop

Best post I’ve read on this thread.

I get sick of people calling all Brexit voters racists.

I also wish people had the honesty to admit that certain points of view, while genuine and well meaning, can attract nasty passengers.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I’m intrigued by your claim that the racists and bigots calling into LBC are remainers posing as Brexiteers to make Brexiteers look bad.

Which is something I never said. I think you'll find it was:

I have heard plenty of people who call up LBC pretending to be Brexiteers, but who are in fact Remainers. They usually do it for the James O'Brien show.

This claim requires evidence.

I assume you accept the possibility that some people can easily pretend to be a leaver/remainer in order to make the other side look bad.

How can you prove someone is lying unless they admit themselves during the call, which is something they are not going to do.

Your argument is asking me to prove that they exist, and if proof cannot be given, they therefore don't exist.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Tangerine2000Today  12:19 am JST

Your argument is asking me to prove that they exist, and if proof cannot be given, they therefore don't exist.

Can you give proof? Are you going to? You could be right but your own argument is a bit flimsy until you do.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Can you give proof? Are you going to?

No and no.

You could be right but your own argument is a bit flimsy until you do.

Yep. But it seems you acknowledge that it is a possibility.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

I have heard plenty of people who call up LBC pretending to be Brexiteers, but who are in fact Remainers. They usually do it for the James O'Brien show.

“I have heard”.

From whom? I hope it was a non-partisan source. I’m open to the idea that it could happen but “I have heard” doesn’t cut it. I have heard that the works is flat but the source matters.

Again, from whom?

UKIP and the Brexit Party attracting racists and bigots is inevitable. It doesn’t mean all members or supporters are racists and bigots.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

From whom?

As in "I have heard it myself, with my own ears".

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

From whom?

As in "I have heard it myself, with my own ears".

This is fascinating, Did they come clean on air?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I assume you accept the possibility that some people can easily pretend to be a leaver/remainer in order to make the other side look bad.

How can you prove someone is lying unless they admit themselves during the call, which is something they are not going to do.

Your argument is asking me to prove that they exist, and if proof cannot be given, they therefore don't exist.

Not interested in a circular arguement, Jimizo.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

It's always cute to see Trump supporting morons opining on brexit.

Well, if this comment stands, it has to be answered.

It's always amusing to see insults hurled by those who can't admit when they're wrong.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

It's like the U.K. never truly learned to be a normal sovereign nation. It can either be an empire that executes internal sovereignty and oppresses others, or it can be a vassal of a foreign multi-national authority in Brussels, but it can't simply function like a normal country. What's up with that?

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

Theresa May has made it impossible for the U.K. to deal with the EU. The current agreement, according to her, the U.K. gets nothing, no assurance of any fair treatment, it's like staying in the EU, paying your dues, and everything else you don't even get a vote now. So now you're going to be ruled over by the EU's authority without even being able to be part of the process and determining what that authority does. That was her idea of a good deal. Because she was never a Brexiteer anyway, she was a Remainer.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

"Theresa May has made it impossible for the U.K. to deal with the EU. "

This is just another Brexiteer fallacy, and plain misleading "theory" that made leave win.

There was never going to be an arms length transaction between the UK and the EU; it's utterly impossible.

EU GDP: 16.2 trillion USD

UK GDP: 2.6 trillion USD

UK GDP is more or less in parity with France's, is much smaller than Germany, Japan, China and the US.

Time to get real and accept that the EU is always going to come out on top, no matter what.

There will be one major loser; everyone knows who that will be.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Simon Foston - More self-righteous cant about the "will of the people." 

Why would a citizen of a democracy want to follow the "will of the people"? Maybe it's because the "will of the people" is exactly what a democracy is based on.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Tangerine2000Today  12:29 am JST

"Can you give proof? Are you going to?"

No and no.

Don't expect anyone to take your argument all that seriously then.

"You could be right but your own argument is a bit flimsy until you do."

Yep. But it seems you acknowledge that it is a possibility.

Of course it's a possibility. I could phone in myself. Doesn't mean I'm convinced it's actually happened.

SerranoToday  01:24 am JST

It's like the U.K. never truly learned to be a normal sovereign nation. It can either be an empire that executes internal sovereignty and oppresses others, or it can be a vassal of a foreign multi-national authority in Brussels, but it can't simply function like a normal country. What's up with that?

It can also be a vassal of the USA - as it frequently has been - but I imagine you're okay with that.

SerranoToday  01:13 am JST

It's always amusing to see insults hurled by those who can't admit when they're wrong.

They might if they can be convinced they're wrong. Think you're convincing anyone here?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

arrestpaulToday  06:46 am JST

Simon Foston - More self-righteous cant about the "will of the people." 

Why would a citizen of a democracy want to follow the "will of the people"? Maybe it's because the "will of the people" is exactly what a democracy is based on.

It ought to be. It Britain and Japan however, politicians can get elected by winning less than 50% of the vote and in the USA the Electoral College can give the presidency to the candidate that loses the popular vote. So why is "the will of the people" so important in this situation when most of the time it doesn't matter all that much?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Simon Foston - If that referendum had been legally binding the UK would be out of the EU. If the pro-Leave camp had come up with a clear and workable plan for Brexit it might have voted on and approved. Neither was the case.

Since the results of the leave/remain referendum became known, it does not appear that any pro-Leave plan would have had a sufficient number of elected representatives supporting the will of the people. Month after month, after month of foot-dragging, and whining, by elected reps who refuse to accept the demand of the will of the people.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Why would a citizen of a democracy want to follow the "will of the people"? 

I guess as an American your statement makes sense, as the guy in charge wasn’t the will of the people.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

"Month after month, after month of foot-dragging, and whining, by elected reps who refuse to accept the demand of the will of the people."

Parliament is Sovereign; they don't have to accept "the will of the people" if this "veal of the people" is clearly damaging for the country as a whole.

The main issue is the word sovereignty got tossed about but the public did not/still don't grasp it.

I don't condemn them; Farage himself doesn't know what it means. He spent all his time claiming to wanting to extract the UK from the EU because the UK's Parliament was no longer sovereign.

Idiot should have learned the basis:

Parliament CANNOT be bound;

Parliament CANNOT be bound by acts of a previous Parliament

Parliament CANNOT be bound by ITS OWN previous act(s)

EU Regulations and Directives MUST be incorporated into British law by an Act of Parliament

Parliament voluntarily surrendered jurisdiction to EU courts;

Parliament can/could revoke this voluntary surrender of jurisdiction AT ANY TIME.

Parliament CAN withdraw art: 50 up to the last second of the expiry date, without any consequences

Parliament CAN cancel Brexit, any time it sees fit to do so.

The "veal of the people" can only be exercised by electing another Parliament, if they're not happy with the current one.

IMHO Parliament will cancel the whole thing, because they are SOVEREIGN.
1 ( +3 / -2 )

arrestpaulToday  06:58 am JST

Since the results of the leave/remain referendum became known, it does not appear that any pro-Leave plan would have had a sufficient number of elected representatives supporting the will of the people. Month after month, after month of foot-dragging, and whining, by elected reps who refuse to accept the demand of the will of the people.

It's funny that, because there was also a general election in 2017 and the will of the people didn't exactly deliver a majority of hardcore pro-Brexit MPs.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Maybe it's because the "will of the people" is exactly what a democracy is based on.

maybe in most democracies but not all. For example in America you can still be POTUS even if you dont have a majority "will of the people" support.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

"The obvious conclusion, I'm afraid, is that he does not think he will win," Johnson said.

I agree with that remark.But then again, if Johnson thought Labor would win, there'd be no way in hell he would be calling for an election either! Johnson... you are no Churchill.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Is Johnson using no deal as a means to extract concessions from the EU?

that was the whole basis of his negotiating, the threat of economic disaster. now he doesnt even have than, it might be , in his words, time to end up dead in a ditch, or resignation would suffice.

Where are all those cards that the UK holds in negotiating with the EU. LOL

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Simon Foston - It's funny that, because there was also a general election in 2017 and the will of the people didn't exactly deliver a majority of hardcore pro-Brexit MPs.

Exactly. The voters have elected, and in some cases reelected, their elected representatives. The bottomline is that it's the voters who are responsible for the state that Parliament currently finds itself in.

At what point does the results of a national (is that the right term?) referendum override the will of a MP's own constituents?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

At what point does the results of a national (is that the right term?) referendum override the will of a MP's own constituents?

The point is when the referendum is binding of course.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

We had a referendum here in Massachusetts to legalize recreational marijuana. It passed.

However, the state dragged its feet and it took the better part of 3 years before you could actually buy marijuana. For awhile, it looked as if they were just stonewalling the voters, that they were never going to allow it.

During that time, there was a lot of sentiment expressed to elected officials on op-ed pages of newspapers and whatnot from people basically saying "I voted AGAINST legalization, but I am much more concerned about living in a society where a government that thinks it knows best disregards the will of the people, than I am concerned about living in a society in which marijuana is legal."

I don't see the same in the UK. The Remainers seem more interested in winning however they can than in their democracy being respected by the ruling class. They don't seem to realize that this disregard for a vote could just as easily happen again with their side on the losing end of things.

And that's more likely to happen now that the government sees that it won't be held accountable for telling voters to go pound sand.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

CaptDingleheimerSep. 7  09:26 pm JST

We had a referendum here in Massachusetts to legalize recreational marijuana. It passed.

However, the state dragged its feet and it took the better part of 3 years before you could actually buy marijuana. For awhile, it looked as if they were just stonewalling the voters, that they were never going to allow it.

During that time, there was a lot of sentiment expressed to elected officials on op-ed pages of newspapers and whatnot from people basically saying "I voted AGAINST legalization, but I am much more concerned about living in a society where a government that thinks it knows best disregards the will of the people, than I am concerned about living in a society in which marijuana is legal."

I don't see the same in the UK.

I don't suppose you do. A whole country departing the EU is a rather more complex issue than the legalisation of a drug in a single US State, and the Leave supporters don't even know what sort of terms they want to leave on. The 2016 referendum merely advised Parliament, also voted in by the will of the people but more recently than 2016, on what to do and its failure to act just reflects the lack of a clear Brexit agenda. I imagine the pro-legalisation people in Massachusetts had a better idea of what they were doing.

StrangerlandSep. 7  07:16 am JST

"At what point does the results of a national (is that the right term?) referendum override the will of a MP's own constituents?"

The point is when the referendum is binding of course.

Exactly. In which case Britain would be out already. However I'm not sure if there is any legally binding referendum result that Parliament can't legally unbind if enough MPs vote to do so.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

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