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Pentagon rejects NATO nations providing jets to Ukraine

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By VANESSA GERA, LOLITA C. BALDOR and AAMER MADHANI

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Though big and strong, NATO, too, is deeply concerned about any act that might drag its 30 member countries into a wider war with a nuclear armed Russia

Putin does appear to be nutso, but is he actually so insane he'd go nuke, knowing that could painfully end most forms of life on the planet, including his own. Has losing two of his generals, each a Putin insider, so enraged him that he'd be willing to further devastate the planet. If life on Earth is pretty much destroyed will there be records left so whatever life form takes over can trace the planet's destruction back to the short, bald man found shriveled up in one of his palaces. Pro-Putin supporters you own this, accept the reality your idol's gone mad, regardless what Tucker, Pompeo and the Florida grifter try to tell you. Time for anyone who has not yet visited Hiroshima or Nagasaki to go there. Read up on Shin's tricycle. http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/virtual/index_e.html

http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/virtual/VirtualMuseum_e/visit_e/vit_ex_e/vit_ex2_e.html

9 ( +22 / -13 )

NATO can’t really do anything without the US do they. If they want to supply then supply instead of passing on the responsibility to others

-6 ( +10 / -16 )

The U.S. government threw Poland a hot potato with a request to send Soviet-made fighter jets — which Ukrainian pilots are trained to fly — to Ukraine. Poland threw it right back, saying it was prepared to hand over all 28 of its MiG-29 planes — but to NATO by flying them to the U.S. base in Ramstein, Germany.

Both do not want to provoke Russia further like the mice discussing who is going to hang the bell on the cat.

13 ( +17 / -4 )

The russian evil attacked a maternity hospital. You can read that in another article here.

What else has to be happen before the NATO jumps in and finish this madness.

The Russian evil do not even hesitate to attack a hospital full of children.

I really really hope that this russian mass murderer Putin and his evil supporter mob will pay the highest price for that!

13 ( +26 / -13 )

Absolute cowardice. Starting to think that NATO would dissolve in the event of Russia attacking one of it's own member states, as the others would be unwilling to 'escalate' with Russia. Putin's threat's of nuclear retaliation are bluffs, he is a narcissist who want's to live above anything else, which is clearly evident from the comically long tables he got out for the meetings with Macron and his own advisors.

-12 ( +10 / -22 )

praised the bravery of the Ukrainian people and armed forces in the face of an assault by a much bigger adversary

Thoughts and prayers only.

It is all about the nuclear option, which was clear in Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, and why NK prioritized that tech above all else.

4 ( +9 / -5 )

Understandable but disappointing.

It would be good to have 100 or so fighter jets take on and incinerate fascist Russia's entire convoy invading sovereign Ukraine.

Putin does appear to be nutso, but is he actually so insane he'd go nuke, knowing that could painfully end most forms of life on the planet

I have zero doubts insane little Putin would not even blink at using nukes, regardless of the guaranteed annihilation of Russia. That is why he needs to be "taken care of" by people within his circle - hopefully soon.

6 ( +15 / -9 )

@kenjiro Aki how do you know he’s not completely insane and more than eager to go nuclear on us?

nobody knows for sure which does make a “let him dig his own grave” approach somewhat rational at this point. Maybe we’ll get lucky and his own people will turn on him.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Putin does appear to be nutso, but is he actually so insane he'd go nuke,knowing that could painfully end most forms of life on the planet, including his own

Yup, I think he would in an instant. If he is willing to blow up children then there is no doubt that this guy would use nukes if cornered.

Has losing two of his generals, each a Putin insider, so enraged him that he'd be willing to further devastate the planet.

Yes

Pro-Putin supporters you own this, accept the reality your idol's gone mad, regardless what Tucker, Pompeo and the Florida grifter try to tell you.

What on Earth are you talking about? None of these men support what Trump is doing. Even the Taliban leadership is concerned and thinks Putin should stop this invasion.

3 ( +10 / -7 )

NATO can’t really do anything without the US do they. If they want to supply then supply instead of passing on the responsibility to others

Hiro, you were right about NATO being a paper tiger. Putin has forced the Americans into a position that, when push comes to shove, they do not have the testicular fortitude to support their allies. And without American support, NATO is utterly toothless.

Yes, Putin is finished, but then so is NATO, and if Putin keeps on doubling down, the EU to boot.

-10 ( +7 / -17 )

What on Earth are you talking about? None of these men support what Trump is doing.

That’s good to hear.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Truth is poland told Ukraine they would give them MiGs and tried to send them from the USA and trade them with the USA for new F16 that are destined for Taiwan.

Offering free delivery of the MiGs to USA.

Poland trying to involve the USA in a war that Biden doesn't want and getting new fighter jets out of the deal.

Tricky polish !

Anyway for poland to accept so many refugees from Ukraine and then infuriate putin is a dangerous situation for polish national security and safety of the refugees and the rest of Europe.

Luckily BIDEN is not as dumb as he looks !

-17 ( +3 / -20 )

but Kirby said U.S. intelligence concluded that it could be considered escalatory and trigger a “significant” Russian reaction.

My guess is that there has been some sort of non-public communication by the Russians that providing the MiGs to Ukraine would lead to Russia attacking the US and or NATO in some fashion or maybe the Russians would shut the gas off to Europe entirely. We will probably never know the full story until the war is over.

12 ( +13 / -1 )

Elsewhere in the news, Blinken gives an interview to Liz Truss:

We’ve sought to provide possible off-ramps to President Putin. He’s the only one who can decide whether or not to take them. So far, every time there’s been an opportunity to do just that, he’s pressed the accelerator and continued down this horrific road that he’s been pursuing,

Weak, just so, so weak. Putin is belly laughing at you Blinken, and you will not or cannot see it.

-3 ( +6 / -9 )

That’s good to hear.

Thanks for heads-up on the mistype

What on Earth are you talking about? None of these men support what Putin is doing. Even the Taliban leadership is concerned and thinks Putin should stop this invasion.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

Both do not want to provoke Russia further like the mice discussing who is going to hang the bell on the cat.

If Russia goes nuke, it won't just be the elderly, obese and people with underlying health issues who go, it will also be the cold shower taking, Vitamin D getting health freaks. The latter will go along alongside those whose lives y'all claimed were expendable because you wanted to have beers with your mates at the pub and make a few dollars more. I doubt there's any farm animal meds that can save you from a nuke. But I don't follow Joe Rogan and his low-life breed so I cannot be 100% sure.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

My guess is that there has been some sort of non-public communication by the Russians that providing the MiGs to Ukraine would lead to Russia attacking the US and or NATO in some fashion or maybe the Russians would shut the gas off to Europe entirely.

Or that they consider the outcome of the war a foregone conclusion MiGs or no. Ukraine is going to be a smoking pile of rubble by the time the Russians are done.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

WWIII is a serious concern. If a country outside of NATO, say Sweden or Finland, were to provide the jets, then that would probably be less confrontational and more acceptable.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

The U.S. government threw Poland a hot potato with a request to send Soviet-made fighter jets — which Ukrainian pilots are trained to fly — to Ukraine.

Everyone is ignoring this

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Stinger

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

The Pentagon has just let the reality sink in that Russia will have a military victory, the south and east of what was Urkaine will defacto become Russian territory. In two years the sanctions will be gone, Putin will be victorious, Russian gas will be fueling European industry. Nato and the western powers will be having behind closed doors meetings to discuss how and why they miscalculated so badly. And sadly probably hundreds of both Ukrainian and Russian parents will be visiting their son's graves after a pointless unnecessary war.

The Ukraine is of vital importance to Russia and of almost no significance to the US... This is ALL you need to understand this war.

1 ( +12 / -11 )

Or that they consider the outcome of the war a foregone conclusion MiGs or no. Ukraine is going to be a smoking pile of rubble by the time the Russians are done.

If this administration or even Europe won’t send these planes, to your point, Ukraine will indeed be finished

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

Ukraine should launch an attack on Brest

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

Hiro, you were right about NATO being a paper tiger. Putin has forced the Americans into a position that, when push comes to shove, they do not have the testicular fortitude to support their allies. And without American support, NATO is utterly toothless.

Ukraine isn't a NATO ally and NATO is not obligated to defend it. The EU and NATO had many reservations about bringing Ukraine into their respective organizations because of the degree of corruption and because of the ongoing low level civil war over the Donbass region that involves Russian forces even if the Russians deny they have troops there. Same reasons NATO and EU have been in no hurry to incorporate Georgia or Moldava, which has it's own Russian backed breakaway region in Transnistria, this narrow winding sliver of land between the Dniester River and Ukraine-Moldavan border where Russian troops are stations as "peacekeepers". As such the nations of NATO are not treaty bound to defend Ukraine and that has to be weighed against the risks of doing so. Read Fiona Hills comments on this war. She is one of the experts on Vladimir Putin, wrote one of the best biographies of him, and she is convinced he will use nuclear weapons in this conflict. Russia's most recently released document describing their nuclear weapons employment doctrine says Russia could use nuclear weapons in a conventional war presumably against a non-nuclear armed opponents if they felt a great enough threat. I don't know what their threshold for going nuclear is and neither does anybody posting here.

14 ( +16 / -2 )

Putin gave the world a rare moment of moral clarity. The crisis he created presented us with the real-life dangers of unrestrained autocracy, and a very tangible demonstration of the importance of democracy, freedom and self-determination. Rights that are so often seen as lofty, ethereal concepts suddenly became palpable when Putin tried to steal them from the Ukrainian people.

4 ( +10 / -6 )

POTUS doesn't know what escalation mean. He thinks it's akin to sliding down a rabbit hole and difficult to climb back up. Putin thinks it's akin to climbing a ladder and easy to go down.

Putin attacked a children hospital just now. Innocent lives buried under rubbles. Escalations continues regardless of whether what NATO does (nothing atm). Putin has called the NATO deterrence bluff. NATO might as well admit it has no capability. Putin will seize on this and be on the west coast of Germany by summer.

There is also a huge risk Baltic and Warsaw pact states will be adopting pragmatism, switch to neutral to allow Putin access to their territories to wipe out Europe. Clear choice for them, suffer like Ukraine, or let Europe suffer instead, NATO won't help them in any case.

Don't forget China is now Russia's chief strategic partner with no limits.

A China + Russia common threat is a huge escalation in this conflict.

-6 ( +5 / -11 )

If the USA listen to these warmongers trying to drag us into conflict - it will not be USSR vs USA, they will come for Japan and South Korea, they will come for East Europe, and they will double down on atrocities in Ukraine - be careful what you wish for.

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

I'm hoping the ground to air missiles Ukraine is receiving can keep the country's skies free of Russian aircraft. I expect that well-deployed, well-trained soldiers with a limitless supply can do a better job than an air force of aging aircraft lacking proper command and control (due to Russia's destruction of its communications centres).

8 ( +11 / -3 )

I still think the best way to give those MiG-29s to Ukraine is to pull them under shelters or even hangers so nobody can count them from satellite imagery and one by one in the dark of the night paint the Polish markings over with Ukrainian markings and a night or two later a Ukrainian pilot taxis it out of the hanger and departs the airfield for Ukraine, with the departure timed so no Russian or Chinese satellites are overhead to possibly observe. Don't rub the Russians nose in it. They will fell a need to react. Sneak them into Ukraine covertly one at a time.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

WWIII is a serious concern. If a country outside of NATO, say Sweden or Finland, were to provide the jets, then that would probably be less confrontational and more acceptable.

Even worse. Russia would feel free to attack them knowing that NATO is not obliged to defend them. I think they would attack Sweden or Finland in a New York nanosecond if they were seen overtly sending fighters to Ukraine.

12 ( +13 / -1 )

Warsaw pact states 

The Warsaw Pact disappeared when the USSR collapsed. Most of the former Warsaw Pact nations are now NATO members.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

I still think the best way to give those MiG-29s to Ukraine is to pull them under shelters or even hangers so nobody can count them from satellite imagery and one by one in the dark of the night paint the Polish markings over with Ukrainian markings and a night or two later a Ukrainian pilot taxis it out of the hanger and departs the airfield for Ukraine, with the departure timed so no Russian or Chinese satellites are overhead to possibly observe. Don't rub the Russians nose in it. They will fell a need to react. Sneak them into Ukraine covertly one at a time.

I’m sure both Moscow and Beijing thought about that move.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

 I expect that well-deployed, well-trained soldiers with a limitless supply can do a better job than an air force of aging aircraft lacking proper command and control (due to Russia's destruction of its communications centres).

That is the old fashioned USSR style of operating combat jets. In the old days of Soviet Frontal Aviation a ground controller told the pilot where to fly, when to turn the radar on and when to shoot. Nobody does that today. Air forces today train their fighter pilots to operate independently of any ground control. US and NATO combat pilots always have.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

The U.S. government threw Poland a hot potato with a request to send Soviet-made fighter jets — which Ukrainian pilots are trained to fly — to Ukraine.

Definitely don't need Russia for an enemy if your ally is like this

3 ( +6 / -3 )

@jeff lee

All good if they can target the planes, but they still can't interdict.

Air power superiority is the single factor allowing Putin to attack civilian targets, terrorise, and cause massive sufferings.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

I’m sure both Moscow and Beijing thought about that move.

The problem for them is proving it. Skilled operators can hide a lot from satellites. Second, NATO or the US isn't doing it publicly which has the effect of forcing the Russians to respond. What would or could Russia do if what was done is deniable?

5 ( +5 / -0 )

It Was A Bad Idea From The Start, Stingers and NLAW's will be just as affective if not even better than a fighter jet.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Mr Kipling 07:59 am JST

The Pentagon has just let the reality sink in that Russia will have a military victory, the south and east of what was Urkaine will defacto become Russian territory. In two years the sanctions will be gone, Putin will be victorious, Russian gas will be fueling European industry. Nato and the western powers will be having behind closed doors meetings to discuss how and why they miscalculated so badly. And sadly probably hundreds of both Ukrainian and Russian parents will be visiting their son's graves after a pointless unnecessary war.

The Ukraine is of vital importance to Russia and of almost no significance to the US... This is ALL you need to understand this war.

A grim but realistic appraisal.

In the meantime there's plenty of money to be made. Photographs tweeted by Ukraine TV channel Nexta on Tuesday show the Azov Battalion receiving NLAW anti-tank weapons and trainers from NATO.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1501171543371665408

The NLAW anti-tank weapons are a joint venture between the UK and Sweden. They're largely made in the UK, mainly in Belfast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_generation_Light_Anti-tank_Weapon

It's heartening to see that British industry remains competitive in the global marketplace.

-8 ( +7 / -15 )

PTownsendToday  06:57 am JST

Though big and strong, NATO, too, is deeply concerned about any act that might drag its 30 member countries into a wider war with a nuclear armed Russia

Putin does appear to be nutso, but is he actually so insane he'd go nuke, knowing that could painfully end most forms of life on the planet, including his own.

Personal opinion!

Yes!

He shows all the signs of someone very capable of saying " If I am going to go down, I will take as many as possible with me".

On the off chance he isn't that nuts, are you willing to risk nuclear war?

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

The problem for them is proving it. Skilled operators can hide a lot from satellites. Second, NATO or the US isn't doing it publicly which has the effect of forcing the Russians to respond. What would or could Russia do if what was done is deniable?

Interesting thought, but these people I’m sure at this juncture are anticipating any possible move to that notion

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Putin is a criminal lier and looser and cannot absolutely be trusted! He is probably psychologically unstable due to the mental cure is undergoing! Only someone close to his circle could stop him somehow if not the world will have to meet him at some point and the situation will rapidly spill out of control! The Chinese are even more unreliable and probably have plan all this along with Russia which is now becoming a dark country and will stay like that for decades to come!

4 ( +9 / -5 )

I'm hoping the ground to air missiles Ukraine is receiving can keep the country's skies free of Russian aircraft.

Those small short range MANPADS would be no impediment to an air force with precision guided bombs, but it appears the Russians are using unguided gravity bombs (with their associated poor accuracy and the need for the aircraft to get very close to the target). Over Kosovo NATO aircraft faced a very high concentration of MANPADS. It forced them to stay high and use PGMs. PGMs are now accurate enough to replace artillery for close in support. Same situation in Afghanistan. General Mattis left his artillery on the ships and relied entirely on PGMs from aircraft for close support. When I was a military helicopter pilot the gouge was to stay below 50 ft agl because the Russian MANPADs couldn't track you. That is not true today. Their newer MANPADs can track you down to the deck, but are still short range low altitude weapons. I asked a Cobra pilot back from Afghanistan what they do now and his answer was "stay high and rely on countermeasures". Hearing that made my rectum slam shut! But the Russians do not appear to have PGMs or much in the way of countermeasures and are suffering losses as a result. My heart positively bleeds.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

We will probably never know the full story until the war is over.

As a person interested in history, one of the things I've noticed is that most democracies allow access to government records and have a free press so eventually most facts can come out for the general public able to see and determine for themselves what might have happened. Whereas authoritarian states control information and media and might allow some facts to be dribbled out eventually, but may may still distort what is allowed to be reported, so the new regime can continue to push the myths they want preserved. War crimes an example. Look at the massacre US Army Lieutenant Calley and his troops committed, Calley was sentence to life in jail and as I recall died in prison. There are numerous accounts detailing the atrocities committed. Contrast that with the Katyn massacre in Poland, and try to find truths in what Russia and Germany and Poland have allowed to be reported. Read also about the accounts of Ukrainians slaughtered by Stalin and his forces, Putin the ex--Stasi, ex-KGB thug is probably a master at distorting history and knows where to hide the facts and the bodies.

https://www.rferl.org/a/after-80-years-the-katyn-lie-lives-on-in-russia/30470317.html

3 ( +7 / -4 )

@Mark

It Was A Bad Idea From The Start, Stingers and NLAW's will be just as affective if not even better than a fighter jet.

they are line of sight or predicted weapons, almost useless against jets. The Russian jets aren't sticking around long enough for them to be pinged, their role is picking targets on the ground for standiff missile strikes.

Ukraine wants to interdict them before they can get close enough to puck targets.

Seems like civilian lives is not worth much to Biden.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Despite the media giving the impression that Poland and Ukraine are on the same side or some sort of allies, in reality over the centuries and even more in recent years they have been far from that.

In 2015 Ukraine despite Poland and other minorities passed a law:

recognises controversial nationalist groups – including the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) – as “independence fighters” and makes it a criminal offence to question the legitimacy of their actions. While these two groups at different times fought both Soviet and German forces, they also collaborated with the Nazis and took part in ethnic cleansing. One of the authors of the law is the son of UPA leader Roman Shukhevych.

Polish minorities were among those targeted and killed by these groups.

In 2018 Poland passed a law which Ukraine condemned

Ukraine's parliament on Tuesday passed a resolution condemning a Polish bill that imposes jail terms for denying that Ukrainian nationalists committed crimes against Poles in 1925-1950 or collaborated with Nazi Germany, saying it could harm relations.

So I am not convinced that Poland was ever really going to give or ever had any intention of doing so.

But one never knows a common enemy does make for strange bedfellows

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

stormcrowToday  07:57 am JST

WWIII is a serious concern. If a country outside of NATO, say Sweden or Finland, were to provide the jets, then that would probably be less confrontational and more acceptable.

And if Sweden or Finland were attacked by Russia as a response? NATO can not protect them.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@Desert

Ukraine isn't a NATO ally and NATO is not obligated to defend it. 

Quite so. However, NATO states have already undertaken to defend Ukraine by providing lethal support. NATO humming and hawing now reads like Ukraine being hung out to dry. Was Ukraine led to believe it would have NATO support? I hope not because they are about to be hung out to dry.

Russia's most recently released document describing their nuclear weapons employment doctrine says Russia could use nuclear weapons in a conventional war presumably against a non-nuclear armed opponents if they felt a great enough threat.

Putin defines “threat” as “getting in the way of what I want”.

What do you suggest when the Russian bear has finished munching on Ukraine and starts sniffing around the Balkan states? Turn the other cheek? Or how about a NATO country?

Do we hide under the bedsheets the moment a nasty man uses the ‘n’ word?

1 ( +4 / -3 )

The Ukraine is of vital importance to Russia and of almost no significance to the US... This is ALL you need to understand this war.

Music to Presidents Xis ears.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Joe Biden, NATO and the EU would just rather send in sandwiches and blankets and try to defeat Putin using fake news misinformation propaganda. Weeping from a distance

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

some people on this Forum have a desire to kill Russian citizens, WATCH YOUR WORDS!

The Ukrainians are not the ones invading a sovereign nation and killing innocent citizens.

The people of Ukraine have every right to defend their land with anything at their disposal. Damn right I - and most of the free world - support the Ukrainians in eliminating as many of their brutal invaders as possible. They are rightfully defending THEIR land from aggressors.

11 ( +14 / -3 )

I've never ever for one second believed in the possibility of a war with nuclear weapons. If humanity really is that insane, then our species deserves to die out. So Biden needs to wake up and show that he can lead. To cut to the chase because the hour is getting late, NATO should get real and since, according to Putin, the Russians are fighting no "war" there, the alliance is equally justified in taking all necessary steps to protect Europe's security now manifestly threatened by Putin's reckless aggression by launching its own humanitarian "Special Operation" ASAP to defend the lives of innocent Ukrainians and put Putin back in his box. For at least 8 years the criminally negligent US administrations have been asleep at the wheel while Putin prepared and polished his plan to annex Ukraine in plain sight . As should be evident by now to everybody, those cringe-worthy "golden years" of 45 especially emboldened Putin's ambitions, but now before it's too late, the West must raise the ante and call Putin's bluff. The sniveling little non-entity will fold for sure and Russians may even get their long hoped for regime change to live in freedom from autocracy.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Fighto!Today  09:08 am JST

some people on this Forum have a desire to kill Russian citizens, WATCH YOUR WORDS!

The Ukrainians are not the ones invading a sovereign nation and killing innocent citizens

That is 100% correct, but Ukraine is the country that did everything it possibly could to give a maniac like Putin even more fuel to push through his plans

When Ukraine openly praises Nazi collaboration in WW2 even making it a crime to call then such (2015), when Ukraine goes out of it's way to pass a law recognising the majority and native people of Ukraine that includes Ukrainian, Kazakhs, etc... But deliberately leaves out ethnic Russians living in Ukraine, (2021).

This not only give the breakaway regions more reasons to remain that way it give the semblance of legitimacy to Putin.

Ukraine made a fatal mistake, it bet on NATO and gave Putin more than he needed.

-10 ( +5 / -15 )

While a low bar, this is the smartest thing the pentagon has done since the conflict has started.

As it stands, this conflict could be over in a matter of weeks or less. If NATO forces get involved, they'd have to launch jets from neighboring countries. This would invite an obvious Russian response, and that would trigger article 5. We would actually be in a full blown European war at that point.

One could argue that NATO has already got too involved, which is true [for years], but this kind of overt gesture would simply be a bridge too far.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

The Pentagon has just let the reality sink in that Russia will have a military victory, the south and east of what was Urkaine will defacto become Russian territory.

And if Russia is not satisfied with taking just the south and east of Ukraine and decides they want more? What then, Mr. Kipling?

8 ( +11 / -3 )

West must raise the ante and call Putin's bluff. The sniveling little non-entity will fold 

We can but hope. If the West does not defend its boundaries, any old tin-pot dictator will think it is game to take a crack.

The world will not be a safer place for it.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

I've never ever for one second believed in the possibility of a war with nuclear weapons. If humanity really is that insane, then our species deserves to die out. 

Well the world has come exceedingly close to nuclear warfare on more than one occasion since the end of WWII. Read a detailed history of the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Israel was ready to use their nuclear weapons. The Soviets had two nuclear Scud battalions on the ground in Egypt and they were threatening to invade Israel with troops in the air on their way to fight as well as more troops on amphibious ships in the Med headed to the Sinai. The US sent nuclear armed bombers to the Soviet borders. The Sino-Soviet border war of 1969 was headed that way. Mao backed down fearing China would lose its own new nuclear program to a Soviet nuclear attack if he didn't back down. The Russians were petrified of hoards of Chinese taking Siberia and the Far East. They didn't begin to have the ground forces to deal with China's huge army. They were fully prepared to use nuclear weapons on China.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

beautiful handling of this by Poland.

The U.S. government threw Poland a hot potato with a request to send Soviet-made fighter jets — which Ukrainian pilots are trained to fly — to Ukraine. Poland threw it right back, saying it was prepared to hand over all 28 of its MiG-29 planes — but to NATO by flying them to the U.S. base in Ramstein, Germany.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

amazingly stupid that now the USA response is "well, jets wouldnt really help the situation anyway" once they got caught trying to hide behind Poland.

The US were the ones who requested Poland to do this in the first place. but now they did an "assessment" that their own request doesnt make sense?

-5 ( +5 / -10 )

We've all seen the ridiculously long tables and tennis court sized distances that Putin keeps between him and everyone else, even his closest generals. Ostensibly, this is for Covid reasons, but in addition, it is probably, of late, more to protect against a Von Stauffenberg type assassination attempt. Putin is Stalin-esk in the sense, he would even refuse to trade to save his own son's life, but the ONE life he does care about is his own. He may be borderline mad, manic, and extremely paranoid, but above all else, he's paranoid to ensure his own survival. In the end, that, as well as the fact that the nuclear arsenal involved layers of people outside himself to activate, are the reasons that the nuclear option is a bluff.

However, before that line, there are other options he can take. Despite instantly destroying what economy remains to him, he can stop the gas line to Europe.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

This morning Mr. Zelensky pres. of Ukraine told Sky news that ""the world is going to wait until Ukrainians start dying by the thousands then the will act !! by that time millions of Ukrainians will be dead"".

A reminder of what happened in WW1 and 2.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

The U.S. government threw Poland a hot potato 

Create international conflicts and then leave them the hot potato, that's how it's been since 1776..

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

I truly feel sorry for the Ukrainian people. I’m also reaching a point of irritation with the displays of weakness from our own government. We made arrangements with Poland to send the planes, and then as soon as Putin says that will be war on us, the pentagon pretends they never made the deal with Poland. Sending weapons to Ukraine at this point will just be gifts for the Russians when it’s over. Stop pretending to care about Ukraine. They just see this as a chance to weaken Putin while fearing him, and Ukraine is just a tool for it. I’m not willing to get nuked for them either, but I’m not denying it. Pretending to be tough while waiting to react to everything Putin does just reaffirms his idea that he can take what he wants. Sad and weak. Weak and sad.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

. He may be borderline mad, manic, and extremely paranoid, but above all else, he's paranoid to ensure his own survival. 

Do you know Mr. Putin's bio? He grew up poor in a communal apartment in Leningrad. Father was crippled by a war wound in 1942. Mother was a factory worker. Both of his older brothers died, one in infancy and the other during the siege of Leningrad from diptheria I believe. His maternal grandmother was killed by the Germans and his maternal uncles disappeared fighting the Germans. He is short of stature and was bullied as a kid. He was in fights often and learned to value toughness. I don't like the guy one bit but that is his bio. If you want some insight into how Russian spies like him were trained during the Cold War read "Inside the Aquarium" by Victor Suvarov, a pseudoname used by the author who is a Soviet GRU defector. His book describes their training in detail. He looks at the same world we look at and sees something entirely different than most of us do. It's not insanity. Everyone sees the world through the lens of their life experience and the information they have at hand. Mr. Putin doesn't have a western education, probably never read James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, Adam Smith, Voltaire or any of the writings that inform western democratic ideals. They are as alien to him as anything can be.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

For the person who scoffed at the idea of giving Mr. Putin "off ramps" to end this war, that is a well understood negotiating tactic. Give your opponent a way to back down without looking like a fool or like they caved in. Give him a little and let him blame his closest advisors for not telling him the Ukrainians would fight or that the west was going to look the other way. I personally don't think Mr. Putin will take an off ramp but at least give it a try.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

There's urban legends of Putin having terminal illness and being more willing to make desperate moves than "normal". But these tales have been around for a while, reducing credibility

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Omg America is such a chicken.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

And if Sweden or Finland were attacked by Russia as a response? NATO can not protect them

No. They are officially neutral. Neither is a NATO member. They have been offered NATO membership for years and so far their citizens have been mostly opposed to joining NATO, so no ruling party in either nation has been willing to take the matter up seriously. In the run up to the invasion there were minorities in favor of joining NATO in both nations. Currently support for NATO membership is right around 50-ish %. There remains considerable opposition in both nations their parliaments have to consider. So, no, NATO is not obliged to protect them. Of the Nordic nations only Norway is a NATO member and even they do not host any bases with other NATO members. They host exercises but no permanent bases there. The US Marines used to store equipment there in caves but I am unsure if they still do since their CONOPS is changing so radically, moving away from conventional land warfare to naval maneuver warfare (taking small islands, setting up anti ship missiles to fire at enemy ships, then quickly leaving).

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@Sh1mon M4sada

But rabbit holes aren't really holes !

They are burrows.

With usually multiple entries and exits .

Its not a whacka mole game played by children either !

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

The ukraine leaders have regularly asked for the planes and I felt it was because they wanted to involve NATO in the war. Why after two weeks there is still speculation about this I do not fully understand. Putin has stated very clearly that providing planes would be an act of war (in his head) and that should have been the end of it.

I have a feeling that after the lull and the removal of civilians things are going to be ramped up on both sides. Ukraine is going to be a building site and those that have left wont have a home to go back to.

As for WWIII and big-nukes I doubt either side are truly contemplating it. However there are dirty bombs and battlefield nukes which could be putins last stand. A mistake was made regarding war-crimes. If you think about it logically if some commanders are already up for a trial their best option it commit more crimes. The more crimes, the longer the investigation and trial, the longer they have to be free. Putin even more so because he really does not have many more years to live anyway.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

For the person who scoffed at the idea of giving Mr. Putin "off ramps" to end this war, that is a well understood negotiating tactic. Give your opponent a way to back down without looking like a fool or like they caved in.

Putin has an “off-ramp”: pack up and go home.

He has also stated he will not make any concessions to Ukraine and NATO, and will pursue his objectives to the bitter end.

To Putin, America’s appeasement is evidence of weakness and degeneracy, and these will only embolden him further.

The only thing that will stop Putin is for NATO to go toe-to-toe with him and say “enough!”.

It is either that or capitulation.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@Bungle.

Can you source 'He has also stated he will not make any concessions to Ukraine and NATO, and will pursue his objectives to the bitter end.'

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@Nator

Reuters

Russia's delegation at peace talks with Ukraine "will not concede a single negotiating point," RIA news agency cited negotiator Leonid Slutsky as telling a television station on Wednesday.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-delegation-peace-talks-with-ukraine-will-not-concede-anything-ria-agency-2022-03-09/

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Bungle

"will not concede a single negotiating point,"

There is a nuance and the commar at the end of the quote and lower case at the begining indicate a very selective edit.

As far as I am aware the three non-negotiable points for russia are:

A cease fire on both sides.

2.A recognition on the areas that are now under Russian occupation.

3.No build up of millitary.

If russia is winning at the moment then all three seem reasonable. If russia is not then 2 and 3 could be watered down a bit.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Omg America is such a chicken.

There are no second chances in nuclear war. It's called Mutually Assured Destruction. No one is absolutely certain Mr. Putin would not go there so there is an abundance of caution. I don't know about you but I am in no hurry to die. I have seen videos of what happens to buildings and anthropomorphic dummies from the blast overpressure. It is not instant death. You will suffer as you are dismembered and burned.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

non-negotiable points for russia

If you go to the negotiating table with 'non-negotiable points', that isn't a negotiation, it's an ultimatum.

From the start of this, Mad Vlad has shown no interest at all in negotiation. All he has shown is that he is not acting in good faith, is lying through his teeth and has no intention of backing down.

What does he care if Ukrainian babies and Russian teenage conscripts die in their thousands.

нет войне

4 ( +8 / -4 )

If you go to the negotiating table with 'non-negotiable points', that isn't a negotiation, it's an ultimatum.

From the start of this, Mad Vlad has shown no interest at all in negotiation. All he has shown is that he is not acting in good faith, is lying through his teeth and has no intention of backing down.

You get it. Have an uptick.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

I posted facts on laws Ukraine past that Putin actually used a part of his reasons to invade.

yeah, not really interested in the reasons (excuses) that Putin used to invade a sovereign nation and also not interested in hearing from those who are carrying his water. We see you.

6 ( +10 / -4 )

From the start of this, Mad Vlad has shown no interest at all in negotiation. All he has shown is that he is not acting in good faith, is lying through his teeth and has no intention of backing down.

That is 100% correct, so why is it that the same didn't apply to Ukraine before this war started?

Ukraine says to the west it wants to negotiate a peaceful settlement with the breakaway regions but then internally passes multiple laws making it impossible for those breakaway regions to return or to feel safe.

I'm in no way justifying what Putin has done I am pointing out the double standard and hypocrisy of Ukraine's actions prior to Putin's invasion.

Please understand I did not invent the laws that Ukraine passed!

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

I still think the best way to give those MiG-29s to Ukraine is to pull them under shelters or even hangers so nobody can count them from satellite imagery and one by one in the dark of the night paint the Polish markings over with Ukrainian markings and a night or two later a Ukrainian pilot taxis it out of the hanger and departs the airfield for Ukraine, with the departure timed so no Russian or Chinese satellites are overhead to possibly observe. 

If you're going to fight, then you meet after school in the parking lot and fight. Surreptitiously slashing tires is for the little man. 正々堂々 Sei Sei Dou Dou as in the 武士道 Bushido is the way. No samurai has scars on their backs because it would be beneath them to not attack face to face not to mention fleeing is cowardly.

If you're going to fight Russia, then stand up and fight Russia fair and square. Ambush and stealth in warfare are one thing. Hiding behind Poland or Ukraine is another and beneath the US military.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

PTownsendToday  06:57 am JST

Though big and strong, NATO, too, is deeply concerned about any act that might drag its 30 member countries into a wider war with a nuclear armed Russia

Putin does appear to be nutso, but is he actually so insane he'd go nuke, knowing that could painfully end most forms of life on the planet, including his own.

This isn't the Cold War. We now have cybertechnology and cyberwar. NATO first practiced it successfully during the 1999 Kosovo War. The Serb air force wasn't able to challenge the NATO jets so the NATO planes and ships were able to bomb and shoot missiles at their leisure, mostly uncontested. Cyberwar can disable defenses so an enemy can come in, like the Russian Army is doing now. Cyberwar can also mess up foreign networks to steal info (like China has been trying to do) or overturn elections to install a puppet like in 2016 when Russians hacked the electoral college in the US to install Benedict Donald into the WH. Of course, the US has sent computer viruses to nations like Iran as well.

Cyberwar is a more effective way to fight an enemy without destroying yourself in the process. We are now in the era of cyberpunk and Russia has been waging it masterfully for years. The rest of the world needs to catch up. It's 2022.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

And NATO doesn't need a general European war. They intervened twice in Yugoslavia because all the abuses, crimes, 'ethnic cleansing' = GENOCIDE, mass fleeing, etc. was causing some serious disruptions to Europe. And the same goes for the 2011 Libya War because the terror monger ruling there was now using chemical weapons on his own people and the danger he posed to NATO, Europe, Middle East and half of Africa was greater than ever. Messing with Russia head-on would only make things bloodier.

Many nations have imposed economic sanctions on Russia and Belarus. Give it time, hit them where it hurts and Putin'll cry uncle. This is what made South Africa end its policy of apartheid. Just ask the late great Abp. Desmund Tutu.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@Cleo

I beg to differ. In a negotiations both parties have 'red lines'. The negotiaions are done on what each side is willing to discuss. I am sure one of the red lines from ukraine is not giving up their country and I sure putin will not want to give back some of what he has stolen.

In the EU vs UK ongoing mess both May and Borris had certain things they would not give up on and the EU have outright refused to be helpful on other stuff.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Ah. Handing off antiquated MIGs, with the expectation of an upgrade. All the while ignoring Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

The virulent desire of millions of citizens in other nations to inflame the situation in Ukraine bespeaks an ignorance beyond measure. Sanctions, calls for a no-fly zone, talking about sending fighter planes from NATO countries to Ukraine, joining Ukrainian forces (many led by neo-nazis) to fight; all of the energy going into supporting and partaking in these bellicose actions are ramping up the dogs of war and making the world even more dangerous than it already is. Pretending otherwise is just a lie.

If the war continues, the outcomes that are most likely include either a defeat for Ukraine or a much wider war involving NATO. Neither of these outcomes would bode well for the future of Ukraine or the world. Indeed, they both hold a potential too horrible to consider.

This war is occurring because Washington/NATO, Moscow, and certain sectors in Ukraine put their interests above those of most Ukrainians. The current Ukrainian government’s refusal to declare neutrality is from the NATO/Washington playbook.

Indeed, instead of the clear sovereignty Ukrainian neutrality would declare to the world, Kyiv’s insistence on wanting to join NATO suggests a subservience to western interests which treat Ukraine as a game board.

Moscow’s invasion comes from similar intentions in Russia. Like ruling elites around the world, Ukrainian officials in government and commerce are primarily interested in what benefits them—money and power. The current rulers apparently believe Washington and NATO will help them maintain and expand both. By adopting a Ukrainian patriotism magnified by a rabid right-wing nationalist element in the government, military, and general population, the rulers of Ukraine have brought the nation to a place that may destroy the Ukrainian national dream for another generation. Or it might bring about something much, much worse.

The Cult of Zelinsky – a mediocre comedian turned oligarchic politician who was first granted world celebrity status by Donald Trump (who earned his first impeachment by trying to use the threat of withholding US military aid to bully Zelinsky into somehow providing political dirt on Joe Biden) and who has now been turned into a Western messiah by Vladimir Putin, the US, Europe, NATO, and the corporate media. Zelinsky’s call for a NATO-imposed No-Fly Zone over Ukraine is a call for US warplanes to directly engage Russian jets and thus a call for great power escalation potentially proceeding to World War III, which nobody wins. Talk about reckless!

“If you won’t close the air-space over Ukraine, then give us planes to fight back,” Zelinsky says. That’s not much better than No-Fly. That too will make it impossible to NATO to be taken seriously in claiming that it is not at war with Russia. Who will fly Polish Soviet-era fighter aircraft into Ukraine? If Ukrainian pilots do, then they are operating from NATO bases, but if Polish pilots do, then are they participants in the war? Few in the West or Russia want open war between NATO and the Russians. For the West to get even more deeply involved militarily would undoubtedly open the door to a much wider war, one that would dramatically increase the possibility that nuclear weapons will be used. The current Ukraine crisis simply cannot be allowed to morph into the Third World War or a conflict in which the West’s end game is Putin’s ‘unconditional surrender.’ Even if he’s saber-rattling to instill fear, Putin’s hints at the possible use of nuclear weapons must not simply be dismissed, because the stakes are too high….”

Zelinsky soaks up the love and adoration the television actor craves in his new role on the global stage while women and children die so that Ukraine can cling to the poison option of someday joining the mass-murderous Western imperialist military alliance (NATO) – something that any Russian state would legitimately consider an existential threat (Imagine Ontario refusing to stay out of a Chinese and/or Russian military alliance that already claimed northern Mexico, British Columbia, and Saskatchewan).

No to Zelinsky and his Western imperialist allies and the vast Western ideological apparatus that have converted him into a symbol of “democracy” and “freedom.” He is the [US and Western] Empire’s New Clothes”: a supposedly insurgent but in fact oligarch-backed rockstar called forth by history to wrap the bloody-toothed wolf of Western capitalism-imperialism in adorable sheep’s clothing.

Perhaps that judgement is too harsh, but this seems clear: the cult of Zelensky, the related exaggeration of Ukraine resistance power, and the smoothing of the path to NATO engagement with Russia (via Polish planes and/or pilots) seems likely to get a large mass of human beings turned into corpses before their time.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

Reported by RT and UK-News media that some British Soldiers have gone AWOL to help fight in Ukraine. I hope they are careful.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

I think this kind of proves that NATO is useless. No NATO, no Ukraine invasion. Why spend all that time and money for such waste?

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Ukraine has no more airbase to house these MiGs!

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

This war is occurring because Washington/NATO, Moscow, and certain sectors in Ukraine

...blah blah blah.

This war is occurring for one reason and one reason only.

Mad Vlad the Warmonger and Butcher of Babies.

End him, and you end the war.

нет войне

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

 No NATO, no Ukraine invasion. 

Yep, if only NATO (formed in 1949) had thought about what a madman (in 2022) would do to the Ukraine(became a country in 1991), none of this would have happened.

This guys gets it

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Yeah, people need to quit making excuses for why Putin is invading. Do you blame rape victims for the clothes they were wearing or the fact that they were at a bar? Russia out of Ukraine now.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

Putin told the world he would not invade and he did. If he threatens nuclear doesn’t that mean he will?

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

No NATO No problems!

All problems was caused by NATO's expansion !

Using the Ukrainians as a spike to poke the bear(Russia) now walking away from them when things are screwed up.

I remember there was a "NO FLY ZONE" against Serbia over Bosnia or Kosovo during the 1990s Balkan war, they were no NATO members either... Wow the double standard of the supreme commander of NATO (Biden) must be very special!

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

To anybody who believes that Putin is bluffing I recommend to read about the Czechen war. After Russia came under terrorist fire Putin ordered the complete destruction of the city of Grozny and with that he achieved his goal. The present Ukraine war has some similarities and I'm convinced that Putin will do everything to win this conflict incl things we do not believe he will.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

UChosePoorlyToday  12:53 pm JST

Yeah, people need to quit making excuses for why Putin is invading. Do you blame rape victims for the clothes they were wearing or the fact that they were at a bar? Russia out of Ukraine now.

Ok I agree!

Now stop making excuses for Ukraine's unwillingness to honestly come to a solution with the breakaway regions years ago.

Point is simple if Poland was Pd off by Ukraine's actions and it has far less problems with Ukraine, one can see how the ethnic Russians were not in any mood to rejoin Ukraine.

And let's put is to rest, this entry thing started with ethnic conflict that both sides willingly stoked.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

The incredibly simplistic retorts ignoring the complexity of the current malaise in the Ukraine bespeaks an ingrained ignorance - let alone disregards the ongoing carnage. Diplomatic solutions are the only means to end the war and avoid expansion into a larger theater.

Putin, Biden and Zelenskyy are all dangerous fools engaged in geopolitical/realpolitik that will be and is the death of many. Zelenskyy's remarks at the conference in Munich early this year illustrates not just a mediocrity and hack, but a complete lack of savvy in terms of international politics. As for Biden, one can examine Hunter's shenanigans as a frame for USA/Ukrainian relations. Putin, his willingness to unleash carnage is well attested to in Aleppo and Grozny.

The machinations that have led to the horror in the Ukraine were purposeful and predictable, fashioned with intent and purpose to advance specific agendas on the behalf of the USA. Basically, the expansion of NATO and fending off an inclusive relation between the EU and Russia - to contain Russia and the continued dominance of the American Empire in Europe. With the Ukraine as a pawn.

It isn't a game. Nor is Putin any more mad than Biden or Zelenskyy or a slew of others who seek and wield power and envision war as an instrument of politics.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

In WWII England needed help against Germany and the US did not want to go to war. The US set up "Lend lease" and the English equipment shortage situation was greatly improved. NATO cant do something like that here? Some people need to grow a set. Russia does not want a nuclear conflict that would destroy itself in the bargain any more than everyone else. It blusters but knows going that way is the end of it. Nuclear conflict is not in its interests.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

The present Ukraine war has some similarities and I'm convinced that Putin will do everything to win this conflict incl things we do not believe he will.

it has similarities with lits of other wars, Syria, Georgia...Putin will only stop when he is forced to, ie with equal and opposite force. So for now, destruction will continue.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

The west and Russia BOTH miscalculated on the fact that Ukraine has been defending its country so well.

What if Ukraine succeeds and pushes Russia out? Maybe the west is more nervous about that than Russia.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

The US is signaling it needs to buy oil from Venezuela again even though there has been no formal diplomatic ties since Jan 2019. Given it two three years or when Russian oil is needed again and the US will soon reach out to Putin. Shell said a few days ago it had not choice but to purchase Russian crude oil.

If you don't have oil then the likelihood of conflict is low. Does Ukraine have any oil reserves or valuable elements?

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Many nations have imposed economic sanctions on Russia and Belarus. Give it time, hit them where it hurts and Putin'll cry uncle.

I doubt it. This guy is not dumb, he already knew what the international community might do and had years to plan for it, he made a nest egg and China also said that they would back him. So the guy is not hurting as much as the Russian and Ukrainian people are.

This is what made South Africa end its policy of apartheid. Just ask the late great Abp. Desmund Tutu.

How?

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

@choose poorly

Actually courts of law, the police and the CPS all do in the UK. Plus there is more than one type. I think there are about 15 various types in the UK depending on situation and accusation.

In the wider public and media quite a lot is insinuated regarding this so it is not as black and white as you think and this is why we should not just blame putin and ignore the other factors.

I think we can all agree what putin did was wrong but why he did it and if he was provoked and if now it has happened others could act in the interest of the people being killed and having to leave the county. NATO is absolutely right not to get involved because that would just increase the problem. Zelensky is absolutely wrong to keep asking for their involvement.

We need to deal with the situation we are now in not the situation of the past and personally this putin is 100% and he should be killed does not solve the problem. He might actually be a moderate and his replacement might actually be worse. Hitler gets a lot of the blame but he was most defintely not the only person in germany that had his way of thinking. Thankfully many of them were hung but not all and many were given a free trip to america. Remember a prime-minister of Japan was once a black-marketeer and he got a tasty bung from the CIA.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@zichi

What about pimlico?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Peter14Today  01:22 pm JST

In WWII England needed help against Germany and the US did not want to go to war. The US set up "Lend lease" and the English equipment shortage situation was greatly improved

Yes and now for the rest of the story!

USA made billions of dollars so much so that the UK only finished paying of it WW2 debt to the USA in 2007.

For those not having any knowledge of history ( seemingly quite a few here) the war ended in 1945 (so 62 years of debt )

So yeah I imagine it is a great idea for the USA.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Ok I agree!

Good! We can talk about anything else after Russia get tf out of Ukraine.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

I think we can all agree what putin did was wrong but why he did it and if he was provoked and if now it has happened others could act in the interest of the people being killed and having to leave the county

Nator - I don't care if Putin thought he was provoked. There is no excuse for invading your sovereign neighbor. You do understand why we can't simply allow one country to attack another because they felt provoked, right?

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

You don't think Ukraine didn't feel provoked when there was a massive Russian invasion force at their border? Would you have excused a pre-emptive attack by Ukrainian forces on them? If not, why? Let's try to be consistent.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

I remember the last time when Europe was close to WW3, the year was 1983 when NATO kick started a massive military drill known as : Able Archer. Then Soviet leader Yuri Andropov almost kick started an invasion of West Germany. And he expects the war goes to a nuclear one. Andropov was the KGB chief from 1967-1982.

When you know the leader of Russia has the background of KGB, better don't anger him/her! Mr.Putin has an eyesight with a motto : Don't mess with me!

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

UChosePoorlyToday  01:57 pm JST

Ok I agree!

Good! We can talk about anything else after Russia get tf out of Ukraine.

Why after?

A serious question.

If what lead to this (and yes the breakaway regions did lead to this.) Was the racial discrimination the ethnic Russians feared then solving that is key,

BBC, ABC, NBC all reported from inside the breakaway regions, before the invasion and few supported Putin invading!

But all said the same thing, Ukraine was making it impossible for them to rejoin because of the load of recent laws entrenching the anti ethnic Russian policies.

So Russia leaving Ukraine will not fix the problems unless the base causes are addressed.

I come from a country with deep ethnic divides and had the majority ethnic group acted towards the grievances of the minority ethnic group in the way ukrainian has, we would have been in an armed conflict long ago,

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

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