Mercenary leader Yevgeny Prigozhin presumed dead after plane crash outside Moscow

Mafia thug state. Pure and simple.

… a frame-by-frame analysis by The AP of two videos were consistent with some sort of explosion mid-flight.

Revenge? Retribution? Murder?

Revenge? Retribution? Murder?

By Jove, Holmes! I think you’ve got it!

Just the latest casualty of Russia's war.

It's surprising that Wagner boss trusted Putin to stick to whatever deal they worked out. Or maybe he didn't, and is still out there.

He crossed Putin - he was a dead man walking from the moment he accepted the Belarus deal. For someone so close to the regime, he showed incredible naivety

One nazi thug down - next up...mini-me.

And here I was told that the failed Wagner coup was a secret plan to invade Poland from Belarus.

Taken out by Putin while Putin was in a concert for the end of WW2. The Wagner No 2 was also taken out.

I just read yesterday he has already shown up in Africa, recruiting more members for Wagner.

Many Russians live in fear of returning convicts released for fighting in the Wagner Group. Returning to their home places and committing violent crimes like murder and rape.

So much for Russia being a rule of law state. Absolute barbarism.

Ah_so

He crossed Putin - he was a dead man walking from the moment he accepted the Belarus deal. For someone so close to the regime,

True. But he did have access to a criminal network. Russia had to shoot down a plan (possibly) to get to him.

he showed incredible naivety

I don't think it was naive, he knew Putin and how he would react. However, it seems he overestimated his ability to defend himself.

An Embraer plane belonging to Yevgeny Prigozhin exploded before crashing into the ground. All would have been killed by the explosion.

Who Putin will rely for Ukraine offense beside Wagner? Russia Army? Clearly there are no significant progress, only backward step now.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/08/22/europe/ukraine-strike-russian-air-base-supersonic-warplanes-intl/index.html

Brilliant move by Putin and Prigozhin. Now his ghost can start invading Eastern Europe while NATO can't do anything.

“I’ll make him an offer he can’t refuse.”

. . . from “The Godfather”

What would have happened???...

An accident, an attempt, an attack by the Ukrainian regime??...

In any case, it is a great loss for the Wagner group and for Russia.

Thank you very much for your fight and rest in peace warrior...

I bet this is fake news to make you believe he is gone.

And we were all expecting an accidental fall from a 6 floor balcony. Looking forward to the investigation... Cause... "Upset the wrong person".

nosukeToday  07:17 am JST

Sadly Either way Ukraine has lost the war.

this war could of been prevented if Ukraine wasn’t trying to become a NATO fermented bean member

I thought it was the Nazis. I thought it was the shelling. Ukraine may still be a member and Finland and Sweden definitely will be. That ceasefire apologists keep talking about? It will be backed by as much NATO hardware as can be created with no restrictions. That is some major success by Putin.

Bumped off in typical Russian style

It's what Putin does.

@Z It's difficult to believe anything news coming from Russia

I agree, but it does look like Putin's body count is getting higher, is he trying to rival Stalin's death count? If so, Russians everywhere need to sleep with one eye open. Which of Putin's other crime bosses will take Prigozhin's place in Russia and ellsewhere around the world, the Wagners have been reported to be in place throughout Africa, maybe starting more wars there while pillaging and plundering for Putin and the Kremlin? And right wingers and other extremists around the globe still refuse to denounce Putin, his imperialisitc aims and his warmongering

If Wagner recruits were as loyal to Prigozhin as we’ve been told they are in the past, then it doesn’t matter whether he was on the plane or not, this actually seems like a huge mistake from Putin.

I knew this was going to happen, not even surprised. Prigozhin was a dead man walking the moment he pushed for a coup. Vlad was never going to allow it and he put a timer on his back and the sands ran out.

Vlad’s response? Nothing business as usual.

And Surovikin will be watching his back too.

You come at the king you best not miss.

So said Omar Little.

From the article and the posts, it sounds like he was beloved by the west.

If this was not an accident, we should not assume Putin is behind it.

What a waste of an airplane. Couldn’t they just have pushed him out of a hotel room or spiked his vodka with plutonium ?

People should take this reports with a grain of salt. This could be true, but it could also be staged to benefit Putin's strongman image, to allow Wagner to operate in the shadows in Europe and Africa, and to get the eye's foreign press off of Wagner's movements, or to escape Putin's exile or potential assassination attempts.

With the Wagner boss's financial resources and criminal networks, he can live like a king in a number of third-world country lacking any real democracy, modern cctv camera technology, wide spread internet access, or literacy and knowledge about current global events.

Remember, Russia is still using cold war spycraft tactics. Placing similar looking dead bodies that will be difficult to identify in a exploding vehicle is right up Russia's alley.

Although Prigozhin revealed Putin's weakness, he was no friend of Democracy. He got what was coming to him.

Need confirmation he IS actually dead, but if true no loss to humanity, the guy is a war criminal, and his troops are guilty of rape, torture, genocide. I can only say who ever fired the missile has saved a lot of future sufferings and closure for past victims.

WP - I suppose it could be ‘the west’ since we know that Russian AD isn’t worth a damn. Maybe it was a bomb placed aboard the aircraft before departure?

Although Prigozhin revealed Putin's weakness, he was no friend of Democracy. He got what was coming to him

I agree, but one tyrant took out the other tyrant and he’s walking around like “something bad happened?” had no idea.

Formally the Lukashenko deal after the coup d'état only included saving his life when he remains outside of Russia, preferably in Belarus under supervision. But we had in the news different show ups in StPeterburg, also now a photo of him showing up in Africa and soon an instant after he again magically appears and curves around near Moscow in a jet and just then fell from the sky? You know what, that's too much of magic and too less of math and probability. If you ask me, everything is a mix of truth and fake nowadays, but especially when it's from there and Putin somehow nearby or involved. So maybe he had indeed that deadly air crash , or he was shot down because being a threat again very near the Kremlin, or he was only a name on the passenger list by fake and is still in Africa, and so on. We just don't and also won't know for now. And why even should we?

Putin's prints are all over the bomb. CIA boss, William Burns, knows: “Putin is the ultimate apostle of payback.” The little Kremlin weasel's turn should come next (to put an end to the Russians' war of aggression).

Does not surprise me at all I remember posting here that it was a matter of time that Putin would take Prigozhin out! This was no accident when he marched on Russia he made Putin look weak Putin gave him a dirty hand shake and gave him a pass to leave with his men. He should have known Putin had a dirty past anyone he felt got in his way he got rid of them. I had posted either he gets rid of Putin if not Putin would get rid of him. It’s ironic that Xi was supposed to give a speech at the BRICS conference but at the last minute had someone give the speech in his absence I am sure he knew that’s why he went into hiding the question is where was Putin when this happened. Prigozhin had boasted that something very big was going to happen soon I am sure he didn’t mean his death.

HooKnowsToday  06:38 am JST

Mafia thug state. Pure and simple.

No real surprise here. Sad to say I figured this would happen, and don't say it was an accident.

One of Russia's "criminal heroes" has been terminated for his actions against Putin. It was always just a matter of time. Allow him to feel like its over and forgiven before ending his life. Falling from 30,000 feet he had minutes to contemplate his death and to curse Putin for such treachery.

Russian justice system in action. Nine others killed are simply collateral damage.

That man and his ninjas are already in niger for more fighting don’t believe everything you hear

Why are you all so easily taken?

Putin who has eliminated his political competitor. That’s what the Western and the Ukrainian propaganda want you to think.

Who benefits from Prigozhin’s death most of all? Putin? Use the old reliable “qui prodest” method.

Prigozhin was never a serious competitor to Putin. I can tell right now that this provocation will NOT allow the West to achieve the result they dream about. I doubt people in Russia will blame Putin in Prigozhin’s death.

And the “democratic opposition” will not depict Prigozhin as a “victim of a bloody regime”, since it has hated Prigozhin no less than Putin. But the Western audience is a different matter. It can believe in anything.

If you exclude the impossible options, the remaining option will be true, even if it would seem unlikely, is what Sherlock used to say.

Nosuke - are the Russians not a reliable source to you?

nosuke, please explain the benefits of him faking his own death and living in the shadows of the world. Please go into as much detail as possible.

This is what happens to those who challenge Putin (or Xi, or Kim).

quercetum

Why are you all so easily taken?

We aren't.

If you exclude the impossible options, the remaining option will be true, even if it would seem unlikely, is what Sherlock used to say.

Well, paraphrased. It was "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." A particularly stupid remark, because you don't end up with a single possibility by eliminating the impossible. There are many possibilities.

Anything that comes out of Russia's Potemkin Village State Media of Disinformation has to be taken for what it's worth - nothing...

I mean these are the same folks that are saying the Moskva is still sailing around the Black Sea and the Kerch Bridge hasn't any holes...

Did Putin try to kill him? No doubt. Did he succeed or is Prigozhin still walking around the Savannah in Africa? Who knows...

The whole affair does show one thing - Putin is weak, and there are elements around him, both civilian and military, that aren't loyal to him, don't fear him, and are just waiting for their chance to mutiny and stage a coup...

ZORG

To be naive would be to believe that he's dead even though there's no confirmation proof other than other than Russian reports

Are you suggesting that Russia may be lying?

Sure, it is a possibility that he wasn't on the plane and now retires to the Caymans to live out his life.

Like Biden said, I’m not surprised. Cross Putin and he has a pretty good track record of targeted assassinations. Not so good at winning wars though.

Any happy news from eastern front today?like UA advances in meters,200 rockets from 50 sent all shot down etc etc...something like UA guys are advancing hard and pounding Russia hard and they will prevail and yes slava Ukraine?

nothing?

Yes, we’re all so impressed your corrupt autocratic fascist derelict of a state has managed to maintain a bloody stalemate with a much smaller neighbor with a tiny fraction of the resources that you were expected to steam roll in a matter of days but somehow managed to totally screw up in the most hilarious ways.

you have SO much to be proud of.

one thing for sure is that Russia will not give to protect own national interests

Well, it will continue to protect Putin's interests, that he has imposed upon Russia as his own.

The nice thing about this is that if Prigozhin is really dead, then the world is a better place by one human today. Too bad Putin couldn't also be in an "accident".

So I am going to be the contrary one and suggest this is not the result of revenge by Vladimir Putin but rather a mundane aviation mishap. Why? Find a pilot and co-pilot willing to sacrifice their lives by deliberately crashing their airplane to avenge a revolt against Vladimir Putin. You can't do it.

It was too far from Ukraine for Ukrainian forces to shoot it down.

Sanctions mean Russian operators cannot obtain spares for their western built aircraft. They are probably cutting corners cannibalizing other aircraft or simply pushing components past their scheduled hours due to a lack of spares. I vote for a system failure or maybe just bad airmanship causing a very mundane aviation mishap.

A shame. They do lots of good work around the world and give jobs to scary guys who would just be mafia.

well guy may be dead so what?

do you expect any big change?

i dont.

It's OK. We understand your grief. Take all the time you need.

A failed coup leader and a terrible war criminal who created the most infamous mercenaries organization that committed countless crimes. Whether he did dies or not, this person doesn’t deserve any good ending anyway.

So I am going to be the contrary one and suggest this is not the result of revenge by Vladimir Putin but rather a mundane aviation mishap. Why? Find a pilot and co-pilot willing to sacrifice their lives by deliberately crashing their airplane to avenge a revolt against Vladimir Putin. You can't do it.

Probably the most likely, but at the same time, could it have been done without the knowledge of the pilot, co-pilot or passengers on board? Asking you because I would trust your knowledge on this more than anyone else here.

well guy may be dead so what?

If these reports are true, do you have no curiosity regarding the circumstances of his death?

Just rather not think about it?

Lesson learned: never get on a plane with Prighozin.

Another dead Russian General in Putin's failed war. Won't be the last.

They do lots of good work around the world and give jobs to scary guys who would just be mafia.

Then after six months of being traumatised in the trenches and practicing killing civilians, those scary guys go back to muzza ruzzia and continue killing innocent people.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/22/alcohol-and-prostitutes-wagner-convicts-pardoned-by-putin-return-to-terrorise-home-towns

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66364272

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-wagner-fighter-prison-accused-six-dead/32532474.html

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-convict-wagner-crime-108e410835e4bf27ac3192cd7f945b39

So, the day went just as usual in Russia.

Lol, so what? He was your most successful "pounder" in Ukraine, and is probably a war hero to millions of naive Russians. Many will be looking for revenge upon Wagner's enemies.

well guy may be dead so what?

do you expect any big change?

i dont.

wagner guys may join russian army as special troops,may close their business anything...we will see

one thing for sure is that Russia will not give to protect own national interests and will continue to fight in UA.

any happy news from eastern front today?like UA advances in meters,200 rockets from 50 sent all shot down etc etc...something like UA guys are advancing hard and pounding Russia hard and they will prevail and yes slava Ukraine?

nothing?

Running out of tall apartment buildings to fall out of?

Probably the most likely, but at the same time, could it have been done without the knowledge of the pilot, co-pilot or passengers on board? Asking you because I would trust your knowledge on this more than anyone else here.

The Wagner linked Telegram channel Grey Zone reported the Embraer aircraft was shot down by air defenses in the Tver region, north of Moscow. The aircraft was registered to PMC Wagner.

According to flightradar24, despite being equipped with ADS-B (Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast), this aircraft was tracked using MLAT (Multilateration) technology, which was probably necessitated by GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite System) interference or jamming in the vicinity.

Maybe the Russian military jammed it's GNSS and shot it down? We may never know the truth.

A couple less to worry about!

And shot down by Russian air-defence?

Quite another achievement!

Wonder how those Wagnerite's will react.

Soon going to Moscow?

Ukraine prevails!

If these reports are true, do you have no curiosity regarding the circumstances of his death?

I personally don't, he challenged Putin's authority, he played that card, chose his faith, was stupid to believe that all was forgiven, lowered his guard (big, big mistake), and got taken out, by a former KGB agent, go figure. Played with the bull, he got the horns, simple as that, the end.

Nothing else we need to know.

well look at that.

either Putin is actually strong and took him out at first opportunity or Putin is weak and it was just an "accident".

You don't need to know how people will react to his assassination?

I personally don't, he challenged Putin's authority, he played that card, chose his faith, was stupid to believe that all was forgiven, lowered his guard (big, big mistake), and got taken out, by a former KGB agent, go figure. Played with the bull, he got the horns, simple as that, the end.

Nothing else we need to know.

or Putin is weak and it was just an "accident".

How would it only being an accident make Putin weak?

because if an accident then Putin didnt take him out because he is too weak to get it done.

The usuals have a dilemma here to choose that Putin is strong and took care of this or deny that he did anything at all.

Plus to believe this, you have to believe that Russian media is telling the truth.

but only this time, when its news that you like, right?

because if an accident then Putin didnt take him out because he is too weak to get it done.

You're the only one who has said that in this thread. And you're getting angry about something only you have said, when you claimed other said it:

Putin is weak and it was just an "accident".

"That level of anger and obsession isn't healthy".

Eastman(n) - if you are looking for good news, it looks like that Mi-8 helicopter that went missing a little while back has turned up. So that’s some good news, I suppose.

because if an accident then Putin didnt take him out because he is too weak to get it done.

Desperate projection. You're assuming others share your warped logic.

Two posts in and you're already embarrassing yourself again.

He's not "strong" enough to claim responsibility for this. Someone else will be blamed.

because if an accident then Putin didnt take him out because he is too weak to get it done.

The usuals have a dilemma here to choose that Putin is strong and took care of this or deny that he did anything at all.

Plus to believe this, you have to believe that Russian media is telling the truth.

but only this time, when its news that you like, right?

because if an accident then Putin didnt take him out because he is too weak to get it done.

Who other than yourself has claimed this?

He's not "strong" enough to claim responsibility for this. Someone else will be blamed.

Like all of his previous assassinations and failed assassination attempts, Mr. Putin doesn't have to say a thing afterwards. His silence in fact speaks louder than any words.

Still, a side of me nags that it was a mundane aviation mishap that will be conflated to something more sinister. We may never know the truth but either way it appears to work for Vladimir Putin.

Just to add, yes I quoted a Wagner affiliated Telegram channel claiming the airplane was shot down but can anyone verify that? Is a Wagner related social media claim in any way reliable?

Still, a side of me nags that it was a mundane aviation mishap that will be conflated to something more sinister. We may never know the truth but either way it appears to work for Vladimir Putin.

Who knows. It's as equally plausible that it was a normal aviation accident as it is that Putin took him out. Either way it doesn't matter, the world is a better place without him, and that's what does matter.

Vlad took care of that real quick.

Desert Tortoise, yeah I don’t know either. If it was an assassination, it’s clear evidence the uprising a couple of months back was not staged, but I think Putin would have made a huge mistake to get rid of Prigozhin like that, and I don’t think he would have made that mistake. If it was a mundane aviation accident then it might be better for Putin’s grip on power but it does point to the effectiveness of the sanctions, as you alluded to earlier.

wanderlustToday  10:12 am JST

Running out of tall apartment buildings to fall out of?

The Russian military under Putin's command is behind this. Thwey have wasted and lost many lives and resources but they're not that weak. And believe me, Putin wants to show the world what happens when you double cross him. Trump's Master Vlaf is behind this all the way.

La vie douce

If this is Putin,s doing , then it confirms he is one ruthless , fearless ex KGB thug doesnt it.

A thug yes. Fearless? This hasn't been proved.

However, the mental gymnastics of those who branded Putin weak for not taking Prigozhin

People branded Putin weak because Prigozhin started a coup against Putin.

out now trying to spin it the other way are quite amusing to watch.

Putin is less weak now. And I would expect the purges to continue...

Russia really is a mafia state.

If this is Putin,s doing , then it confirms he is one ruthless , fearless ex KGB thug

Whether it was Putin's doing or not, I don't think any further confirmation of his character was needed, was it? Quite apart from the multiple wars he has started causing untold deaths, he has a history of eliminating his enemies/surplus henchmen ruthlessly and with little regard for collateral damage. The destruction of his enemy's plane seems to have his hallmark on it.

As for fearless ... I don't think so. The famed long table was to prevent normal folk, even his inner circle, coming too close to him with covid cooties/hidden daggers/spray bottles filled with novichok. And what's his reason for not attending the BRICS summit in person? Fear of being sent to the Hague.

Same reason he stays away from windows, avoids the front line, and, I imagine, brews his own tea.

Putin finds another way to kill one of his enemies, rather than fall from a high floor window, it's high in the plane.

This can't go on forever as someone will take out Putin.

However, the mental gymnastics of those who branded Putin weak for not taking Prigozhin out now trying to spin it the other way are quite amusing to watch.

If you hang around long enough, someone might actually come along and express the opinion that you weirdly want them to.

They haven't yet, however. So maybe go for a stroll for a while or do some MAGA / Putin stuff.

A plane exploding in the sky is not the usual air accident.

With his countless billions of money, who's to say that Prigozhin has not already had cosmetic surgery to completely change his appearance, and just disappeared, many others have done so. He already changed his name and got a new passport and he was ready to go, and is now living.........anywhere?? But of course the story could be true, which would great, and he was on that crashed plane, but seeing that all news coming from Russia cannot be trusted, who is to say?

It could have also been the act of a rogue general who wanted revenge on the Wagner Boss. Russia removed Sergei Surovikin, nicknamed "General Armageddon", as head of the air force after he vanished from public view during a Wagner mercenary mutiny against the top army brass, two Russian news outlets reported on Wednesday.

The Wagner boss embarrassed him because Surovikin like Putin's cowardice was exposed to the public during the mutiny.

Putin gets to keep his millions and wealth.

La vie douce

People branded Putin weak because Prigozhin started a coup against Putin.'

Thats a bit inaccurate - Prigozhin is on record saying from day one of his revolt that it was not against Putin 

Yeah, whatever. Putin definitely took it as a coup attempt against him and that it made him look weak.

La vie douce

People branded Putin weak because Prigozhin started a coup against Putin.'

Also, the usual hawkish posters have stated numerous times here that Putin not taking out Prigozhin was a sign of his weakness. Fact.

The usual hawkish posters are pro-Putin, so I doubt that they would say that was a sign of Putin's weakness.

Spinners still spinning repetitively without sharing any opinions on whether Putin did this or not.

so what’s the consensus?

pootie did it or accident?

Even if Putin bombed the plane there will never be a paper trail back to him.

posters have stated numerous times here that Putin not taking out Prigozhin was a sign of his weakness. Fact.

absolutely true. That’s why the same posters are struggling now and avoiding to take any position on what happened.

“nobody saying that!” “We didn’t say that!”

ok who is “we” and what are you saying, precisely? What happened here, in your opinion?

Your original claim:

or Putin is weak and it was just an "accident".

That if it was an accident, that proves Putin is weak.

The new claim:

posters have stated numerous times here that Putin not taking out Prigozhin was a sign of his weakness.

absolutely true.

Y U conflate 2 events bruh?

Putin was never too weak to take out Prigozhin. He just had to abide by his time.

Defections all.

what happened? Who did it?

simple question.

Blacklabel

Defections all.

what happened? Who did it?

simple question.

Simple question, difficult answer. It looks like Putin, but it could be another group that was angry with Prigozhin, or Prigozhin faking his own death.

I have said before that Prigozhin's coup attempt made Putin look weak, but if this was Putin, he is less weak now and Russia is a mafia state.

Answered very clearly above:

your opinion was asked.

what happened? Who did it?

only time in recent history all of you seem to be out of opinions and speculation.

Well we don’t know for sure, so we just won’t say anything!

said none of you, ever.

> 2020hindsightsToday  11:14 am JST

La vie douce

If this is Putin,s doing , then it confirms he is one ruthless , fearless ex KGB thug doesnt it.

A thug yes. Fearless? This hasn't been proved.

However, the mental gymnastics of those who branded Putin weak for not taking Prigozhin

People branded Putin weak because Prigozhin started a coup against Putin.

out now trying to spin it the other way are quite amusing to watch.

Putin is less weak now. And I would expect the purges to continue...

Russia really is a mafia state.

Putin is doing what fascist pigs always do, clean house and weed out the weaklings and those who piss him off. Darth Vader used the Force to strangle people who pissed him off and in real life Hitler committed the Night of the Long Knives as well as a purge after a failed 1944 assassination attempt on him. It's happened in so many regimes before and it's no different in modern mother Russia.

and you think I'm the one with a language problem.

you must have one as it’s a simple question.

Again: in your opinion who did this and what happened?

your opinion was asked.

My opinion? My opinion is that we'll never know, and really, as I said in an earlier post, it's irrelevant. Could have been Ukraine, could have been Russia. Maybe there was never a plane. Maybe there was a plane, but Progozhin wasn't on it. Maybe everything was just an accident. Maybe it was aliens from the distant future of an alternate dimension. We can never know because the news is filtered through Russia, so there is literally not a single bit of information within it that can be taken as truth at face value.

If you want to know what I think may have happened, I put it at 50/50 it was a normal plane crash, or something by Putin. The other options I listed above are less likely. But again, I'm not even convinced that there was a plane, or a crash, or that Prigozhin was anywhere near it.

Well we don’t know for sure, so we just won’t say anything!

said none of you, ever.

I literally said it above:

Who knows. It's as equally plausible that it was a normal aviation accident as it is that Putin took him out. Either way it doesn't matter, the world is a better place without him, and that's what does matter.

Eastman

No game changer at all.

Russia will prevail.Keep pounding rebiata hard!

Russii slava!

Keep pounding your own hard.

I have said before that Prigozhin's coup attempt made Putin look weak, but if this was Putin, he is less weak now and Russia is a mafia state.

Yep, exactly this. Plenty of us have said the uprising made Putin look weak. I’m not sure if any of us have ever said Putin not taking out Prigozhin makes him look weak.

Putin instead of pushing him out of a window pushed him out of the sky.

Here's an interesting opinion on the topic: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/08/prigozhin-plane-crash-putin-kremlin/675100/

This is what happens to those who challenge Putin (or Xi, or Kim).

What, you don't think western leaders have similar (or greater) body counts?

La vie douce

Thats a bit inaccurate - Prigozhin is on record saying from day one of his revolt that it was not against Putin - Yeah, whatever. '

2020, I think you are better than ' Yeah, whatever' kind of an answer, is Prigo not on record as saying that his revolt was specifically against Gerasimov / Shoigu incompetence?

No, he isn't. But Gerasimov / Shoigu report to Putin and Putin took it personally. And it made Putin look weak. Fact.

Raw Beer

This is what happens to those who challenge Putin (or Xi, or Kim).

What, you don't think western leaders have similar (or greater) body counts?

Umm, no. It would be difficult to top Putin, even if you believed that Western leaders assassinated people.

Putin isn't at Stalin level yet, hwoever.

Prigozhin embarrassed Putin on the world stage.

Here's an interesting opinion on the topic: 

But it’s not yours or any of the posters here, which is what I was interested in. Even more so based on the Putin is weak because he didn’t deal with this comments over the past weeks.

well, he dealt with it. So what do you say now?

But it’s not yours or any of the posters here, which is what I was interested in.

I gave my opinion above, something you seem to have avoided doing at all costs yourself.

Here it is again in case you missed it:

My opinion? My opinion is that we'll never know, and really, as I said in an earlier post, it's irrelevant. Could have been Ukraine, could have been Russia. Maybe there was never a plane. Maybe there was a plane, but Progozhin wasn't on it. Maybe everything was just an accident. Maybe it was aliens from the distant future of an alternate dimension. We can never know because the news is filtered through Russia, so there is literally not a single bit of information within it that can be taken as truth at face value.

People of intelligence know this, and are ok with not knowing what happened.

If you want to know what I think may have happened, I put it at 50/50 it was a normal plane crash, or something by Putin. The other options I listed above are less likely. But again, I'm not even convinced that there was a plane, or a crash, or that Prigozhin was anywhere near it.

This is a nuanced response by a PoI.

well, he dealt with it. So what do you say now?

I say how you know? Are you privy to secret information on a conspiracy that let you know what actually happened?

I say how you know?

Err... how do you know.

At least it was instant. Putin could have used Novichok slowly and deadly.

I say how you know?

It’s just my opinion that you still claim I haven’t given.

Putin took care of it. clear?

as opposed to that word salad you claim is your opinion that takes no actual position as to what you think happened.

cause you want that “nobody ever said that ….” position for all possible outcomes available later.

Thank you very much for your fight and rest in peace warrior...

You're praising a mass murderer.

Putin took care of it. clear?

How have you determined it wasn't just an accident? And how have you determined that Prigozhin was even on the plane in the first place?

If there is such a place as hell Prighozin is in it.

At least it was instant. Putin could have used Novichok slowly and deadly.

Maybe not a instantaneous as Prigo would have preferred (though still much better than Novichok). It looks like the plane fell out of the sky relatively intact, albeit on fire. Sledgehammer to the skull would have been quicker.

@La vie douche… ok, you are correct, there are a few posters who have said that.

And apologies for the mis-spelling.

Several media outlets are now showing video of the airplane falling out of the sky surprisingly slowly, nose straight down trailing smoke. Looking a lot like a shoot down.

Unfortunately for the pro-Kyiv brigade and that regime in that city, this incident will have ZERO - repeat ZERO - consequence on the battlefield in which a certain side is definitely losing.

It will not magically reverse their misfortune. It will not turn the 2023 counteroffensive into a spectacular success from an unmitigated disaster. It will not turn the loss-exchange-ratio from a shocker to a winner. It will not miraculously turn the alphabet soup of western Wunderwaffe into game changers likes transformers.

On the contrary it will bolster and fortify the existing power structures in Moscow, particularly the democratically elected Putin government and the RMOD (elections are upcoming).

Unfortunately for the pro-Kyiv brigade and that regime in that city, this incident will have ZERO - repeat ZERO - consequence on the battlefield in which a certain side is definitely losing.

Yes, the Russians are definitely losing.

And Prigozhin has been a non-player since his attempted coup, so neither his life nor death really would have any consequence on the battlefield.

*Putin spoke at an event commemorating the Battle of Kursk, hailing the heroes of Russia's war in Ukraine*

What an irony and excellent comparison. Heroes then and now.

The memorial was unveiled in the village of Ponyri, Kursk Region (whose residents participated in the heroic effort to build a 95km railway to keep Allied Forces supplied and the village became part of the battlefield).

Now that was another spectacular counteroffensive which ran into fully prepared, layered onion-like defensive fortifications during the summer, with the losing side going onto cede territory permanently.

Instead of tearing down monuments, they build them, respect history and honor the heroes.

Here a list of those on board:

Propustin Sergey

Makaryan Evgeniy

Totmin Alexander

Chekalov Valeriy

Utkin Dmitry

Matuseev Nikolay

Prigozhin Evgeniy

Crew members:

Levshin Aleksei, commander;

Karimov Rustam, co-pilot;

Raspopova Kristina, flight attendant.

Here a list of those on board:

Propustin Sergey

Makaryan Evgeniy

Totmin Alexander

Chekalov Valeriy

Utkin Dmitry

Matuseev Nikolay

Prigozhin Evgeniy

Crew members:

Levshin Aleksei, commander;

Karimov Rustam, co-pilot;

Raspopova Kristina, flight attendant.

Every one of those people may have been on that plane. Or none of them. As it is Russian media reporting it, and the Russian media is entirely state controlled, entirely corrupt, and opaque, someone might as well make up this list out of their own head. The source of the information has no credibility, and therefore it would be silly to treat anything they tell us as reliable.

It's why you can never trust the numbers provided by the CCP either. No press freedom = can't trust the government.

Makaryan and Totmin are his personal bodyguards.

Chekalov is a very senior leader (perhaps number 3).

Propustin and Matyuseev are group leaders.

The crew of course were Wagner too.

Chekalov, callsign Rover, was the logistics brain, coordinating military and private aircraft for the supply and rotation of PMC employees, developing supporting infrastructure and hardware, allowing the quick transfer of thousands of people from one African/Mid East country for urgent combat missions.

Now I know there is speculation, and I am not speculating:

There are a number of videos floating around showing the plane falling out of the sky (not on fire), I believe at least two.

None I have seen have the telltale signs of vapour condensation trails of ground launched missiles (which would require a significant system as it was at a cruising altitude of about 29.000 ft (I think).

There is another short, grisly video of two people approaching the wreckage directly, fires still smouldering, with two bodies visible in the debris field.

There are a number of videos floating around showing the plane falling out of the sky (not on fire), I believe at least two.

They are showing a plane falling out of the sky. Did it actually happen where and when they said? You'd have to believe Russian media to believe that at face value.

None I have seen have the telltale signs of vapour condensation trails of ground launched missiles (which would require a significant system as it was at a cruising altitude of about 29.000 ft (I think).

And was the video you saw it on provided by the Russian media? You'd have to trust them to believe that you weren't looking at a doctored video.

There is another short, grisly video of two people approaching the wreckage directly, fires still smouldering, with two bodies visible in the debris field.

But were they actually two of the people that the Russian media has claimed were on the plane? You'd have to trust Russian media to believe that.

Maybe it's all true, maybe it's all a lie - who knows?! That's why state-controlled media is useless, it may as well be fantasy for all its reliability.

Brazilian planemaker Embraer SA said it had not been providing any service or support in recent years to the plane, which seats around 13.

Video of the plane crashing

https://news.sky.com/story/ten-killed-in-private-jet-crash-north-of-moscow-wagner-leader-yevgeny-prigozhin-on-passenger-list-12946006

StrangerlandToday  03:27 pm JST

For the record, I am looking at a very wide range of media including western media.

I am also looking at and reading from a very wide range of Telegram channels.

(the west has state-controlled media too you know right...)

Just in - part of the tail element of the crashed Embraer is located 3.5 km from its crash site.

For the record, I am looking at a very wide range of media including western media.

Western media has received the info from Russian media. It doesn't suddenly become trustworthy just because it's had another hand on it.

Do you believe the Russian media?

I am also looking at and reading from a very wide range of Telegram channels.

Sounds reliable, other than the the Russian government plants in said channels, spreading Russian government propaganda of course. Though I'm sure someone as intelligent as you can sort out which of them are pushing propaganda, right?

In the Tver region, the village of Kuzhenkino, where the plane crashed in a field, the general area has been cordoned off by police.

Betcha a Kremlin hitjob

Putin smiling in his media appearance, not at all concerned

" What's interesting is you constantly claim the Russians are lying - however when it comes to the death of their mercenary boss your more than ready to believe it because it fits your narrative agenda."

There are instances of that sort of thing going both ways though. Like those that were absolutely certain the mutiny was staged (also meaning the Russians would have been lying) now having to admit that it wasn’t. Narratives are not just something that happens in the realm of Ukraine’s supporters.

For the record, the aircraft is believed to be an Embraer Legacy 600 business jet with registration number RA-02795.

For the record, the aircraft is believed to be an Embraer Legacy 600 business jet with registration number RA-02795.

Is that what the Russian media is claiming?

Do you believe it?