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Russians push deeper into Mariupol as locals plead for help

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By CARA ANNA

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Ukrainian and Russian forces battled over the Azovstal steel plant in Mariupol

The "Ukrainian forces" are actually the Azov Battalion which are not regular Ukrainian Military forces, they have their own independent command structure and are US trained, funded and armed.

The "Russian forces" are the militia forces of the DPR (Donetsk People's Republic) and LPR (Luhansk People's Republic). They speak Russian and are loyal to Moscow but actually are Ukrainian citizens.

The vast majority of the fighting and casualties are among these two armed units.

The 400,000 strong Ukrainian regular army is actually not fully engaged against the regular Russian Military from Russia proper, they have a type of gentleman's agreement not to go full throttle against each other.

This is evidenced by the fact that the Russian military convoy could openly park on the highway to Kiev for a highway and Ukrainian artillery units never engaged them. The Ukrainian military has heavy artillery that could have obliterated the Russian convoy easily.

The convoy was left untouched.

In the western city of Lviv, Ukraine's cultural capital, which was hit by Russian missiles on Friday, military veterans were training dozens of civilians on how to handle firearms and grenades.

"Dozens" ??? What does that mean, like 30 people?

We're getting biased reporting on this conflict.

-9 ( +13 / -22 )

I have never felt so much anger for one sniveling (half) man.

5 ( +16 / -11 )

My early comment that this is a civil war and Ukraine is a province of Russia was soon removed. I think now if Putin is replaced by Zelensky, all will be fine.

-13 ( +4 / -17 )

Dozens" ??? What does that mean, like 30 people? 

Yes.

We're getting biased reporting on this conflict.

Obviously. The majority of the world hate putin and he is trying to pretend otherwise, as are you. But it’s not working.

0 ( +14 / -14 )

It isn't a civil war.... It is a proxy war.

2 ( +13 / -11 )

Bronco - You seem to be pretty plugged in to the situation on the ground. Why don't you share your sources for this info, friend? I'd be happy to take a look.

We're getting biased reporting on this conflict.

6 ( +15 / -9 )

“Children, elderly people are dying.

But the anti-west herds of Putin's propaganda pushers will say, they were Nazis, so it's OK, while the anti-NATO ilk cheer on their Russian National Socialist hordes brutalizing a population made up of civilian children and. the elderly. Then try to convince their fellowf ascists that NATO are warmongers while Putin's hordes fire missiles in their ongoing attempts to level a a sovereign nation that sees itself as independent, no longer part of the USSR or Russian Empire,

5 ( +16 / -11 )

VoV - Do you think the Ukrainians will accept a Putin-installed puppet?

My early comment that this is a civil war and Ukraine is a province of Russia was soon removed. I think now if Putin is replaced by Zelensky, all will be fine.

4 ( +10 / -6 )

I'll try one more time, probably be censored, not a pro Russian comment but a military fact. Giving the Ukrainians advanced anti tank weapons will result in more Ukrainian deaths. Why? The military solution to effective anti tank fire is to hold back the tanks and bomb the area to oblivion. Giving Javelin to the defenders will just slow the inevitable defeat with more death. Putin called Nato' ( the US) bluff. And now innocent Ukrainian and Russian soldiers are paying the price.

-7 ( +12 / -19 )

The bodybags of the fascist Russian invaders will keep piling up and getting sent back to where they came from. This is a war little dictator Putin and fascist Russia cannot win. They may "claim" cities, but they will never control them. The Ukrainians are dug in, bravely defending their land, and will never roll over as the fascist Russians expected.

The free world, and history, is on your side, Ukraine. We know you will ultimately prevail against the invading scum.

7 ( +20 / -13 )

 Giving the Ukrainians advanced anti tank weapons will result in more Ukrainian deaths. Why? The military solution to effective anti tank fire is to hold back the tanks and bomb the area to oblivion.

It will result in further holding back the tank convoy. As everyone has seen. That and running out of gas.

5 ( +12 / -7 )

Mr. Kipling - it's a war. Both combatants and non-combatants die. That's why we do what we can to avoid them. Are you suggesting that the Ukrainians should just roll over and submit to Russia? Would you recommend that your own country (assuming it's not Russia) do the same in a similar situation?

Giving the Ukrainians advanced anti tank weapons will result in more Ukrainian deaths.

12 ( +18 / -6 )

Their leaders are not wise enough. If they were, things wouldn't have reached this point, and thousands of civilians lives would've been saved. 

If putin hadn’t started this illegal invasion, thousands of civilians lives and thousands of Russian soldiers lives would’ve been saved. And Russia wouldn’t be facing future generations of regression.

putin lied to the Russian people, lied to the soldiers and lied to the world. The weak minded were fooled while the brave Russians speaking out against the war have been arrested and beaten.

That’s how it is.

8 ( +16 / -8 )

Each side accusses the other of "misinformation". But realistically speaking, Ukraine has no chance at all in this war. The NATO can keep cheering for them and selling them patriotic speeches all they want, but at the end of the day it won't make a difference. 

Their leaders are not wise enough. If they were, things wouldn't have reached this point, and thousands of civilians lives would've been saved. Just a couple of weeks after the war and their president started changing his tone and said "we don't want to join the NATO anymore". 

European citizens will pay soon for their leaders' mistakes as well. It will only take a tiny decision by Russian to shut down the gas pipelines, then they will cry.

I couldn’t agree more.

-7 ( +7 / -14 )

Bob Fosse...

It will result in further holding back the tank convoy. As everyone has seen. That and running out of gas.

Yes, it will delay the inevitable after more civilian and military death. Same as in Lebanon 2006.

-8 ( +5 / -13 )

The Russian military said Saturday that it used its latest hypersonic missile for the first time in combat.

And of course Russians are so well known for telling the truth.

5 ( +13 / -8 )

 Their president definitely was demanding and begging the NATO to allow him to join.

Right, so Putin wouldn't invade them. Kind of like what he's doing now.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

Yes, it will delay the inevitable after more civilian and military death. Same as in Lebanon 2006.

I’ve never understood the concept of ‘everyone else does it’ to justify evil. Seems like something a child would think.

9 ( +15 / -6 )

Unless Ukraine pacify Russian military city that border, Ukraine, they will continue to suffer heavy losses, they are striking distance, where Russians have bases,Ukraine was dishonest by the number of people under arms, 250 thousand, so called troop could of held it own, Belarus citizens are sabotaging Russia in Belarus

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

If he was smart he would soon change into more brutal tactics. For example destroyed all the remaining aircrafts and ships and cut them completely off from the sea and air. These are the only two things the west won’t supply Ukraine. Then slowly grind the ukraine armies to dust with shelling and bomber planes. They might have stock up on ammunition, fuel and supplies but give it 1 year and everything will eventually runs out. Cut off the water and electricity supply along with all communication facilities. By next winter, the resistance would be starving in the cold and mellow out by then. I don’t understand why Russia bother with sending ground troops anyway and get force into fighting urban warfare. Even if they took the cities, they would face immense logistic problems trying to pacify the locals.

Ukraine it’s a agriculture nation. Without farming, they won’t have revenue and won’t able to fund their war. The is a war of attrition. The west won’t able to keep pouring money into this forever. Just the millions of refugees alone will soon cripple their economies. These nations will soon enter a recession by next year.

i think the harder Ukraine resist, the more likely it would be that soon the russian army is gonna switch to even more brutal tactics. Now they know they cannot take it quickly, they are gonna switch to leveling the cities i stead. Is the most logical choice considering the ukraine soldiers are spread all over the cities and among civilians. Same with the weapons. So is even harder to know which place to hit and who to fight. I am not surprise they are just trying to shell everything with artillery at this point.

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

Hiro - would you suggest that the Ukrainians stop with conventional warfare, allow the Russians to enter the cities and take control of the country and only then resist them with a guerilla/partisan-style warfare?

9 ( +13 / -4 )

I guess what I am asking, Hiro, is what advice would you give the Ukrainians on how best to expel the Russian invaders as quickly and painlessly as possible. Of course, I understand that there may be no good options for the Ukrainians, just wanted to see what you might recommend to them.

4 ( +9 / -5 )

How depressing!

What an awful country Russia is!

Heartless and cruel.

7 ( +14 / -7 )

Beyond the superficial designation of Ukraine as a sovereign state, in the minds of many Russians Ukraine is historically an integral part of "Russian" lands. To soldiers on both sides speaking the mutually intelligible language of Russian and with many sharing familial ties, this conflict must seem like a civil war, or what many call it inside Russia, a "fratricidal" war. Against this there can be no doubt that now most Ukrainians have been given a stronger national identity shedding blood in defense of their homes from Putin's recklessly cruel invasion which is beginning to look like one of history's "groundhog days" to anyone who remembers what happened when Stalin's minions attacked Finland.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

@UChosePoorly, i have no advice for them. I am just stating the harsh fact to them. That this 3 weeks is nothing and russia can switch tactics at any time and tackle it however they want. So ukraine can either resist or surrender. But the future won’t be pretty the longer they drag it on. The reality is that outcome has already long be determined the moment Europe refuse to send troops. So right now they are merely prolonging their own suffering.

Russia fighting Chechnya took a decade and the capital was raze to the ground. So you can see just how long this thing can be drag on and how bad things are gonna get.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

From above: "The "Ukrainian forces" are actually the Azov Battalion...." This is rubbish. According to Wikipedia, "The Azov Battalion has been described as a far-right militia with connections to neo-Nazism and members wearing neo-Nazi and SS symbols and regalia, and expressing neo-Nazi views." This has nothing to do with the democratically elected Zellenskyy who was trying to find ways to mend ties with Russia and bring peace to Dohas when Putin invaded Ukraine, kills hundreds innocent civilians, including children.

6 ( +12 / -6 )

The hollow goliath has completely lost face. The danger is near for the entire world.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

"What an awful country Russia is!  Heartless and cruel." Then what about the Russians risking their lives protesting Putin's war?

7 ( +11 / -4 )

What an awful country Russia is!

Not Russia, Putin. Most Russians are not for this war and overall most are very nice people.

0 ( +8 / -8 )

The 400,000 strong Ukrainian regular army is actually not fully engaged against the regular Russian Military from Russia proper, they have a type of gentleman's agreement not to go full throttle against each other.

Well this is an interesting statement. I’d sure like to hear more about this “gentleman’s agreement” if you have any.

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

Well this is an interesting statement. I’d sure like to hear more about this “gentleman’s agreement” if you have any.

I agree. I would love to see a source for this. It doesn't look like what is happening is very gentlemanly to me!

5 ( +7 / -2 )

It isn't a civil war.... It is a proxy war.

Proxy war?

Who is the major power behind Russia and instigating Russia to attack?

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

Medieval. The Hague awaits Putin.

7 ( +12 / -5 )

After Ukraine wins this thing, Ukraine had better become like ancient Sparta and make military service mandatory for everyone of its citizens. Oh, and Ukraine should also arm itself in such a way so that nobody, and I mean nobody, ever attempts to invade Ukraine again.

6 ( +11 / -5 )

"much anger for one sniveling (half) man."

Well:

Sambo Expert (real)

7th Dan in Judo (real)

Certified KGB assassin (real)

Maybe you ought to "re-assess" your "opponent" again?!

Btw, even a strongly biased source like CNN is reporting that Russia launched hypersonic missiles, destroying Ukrainian barracks and ammo depots.

Mariupol is just a matter of when not if.

US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin now says "Russia continues to make incremental gains in the south of Ukraine" as if he was "expecting" any different!

When this is all done and dusted, a ceasse-fire under Russian conditions imposed we'll have "experts" writing about this war that "Russia lost"

Just like in Finland.

Disclaimer:

I am no Russian fan but even the Devil deserves representation.

-11 ( +4 / -15 )

Peeping Tom - You say you are no fan of the Russians and are just arguing on their behalf as the Devil's Advocate. You seem to be implying that Ukraine should surrender. What terms do you think the Ukrainians would/could accept at this point? What about Russia?

8 ( +11 / -3 )

Matthew Hopkins - You don't think Putin has any designs on any other countries after Ukraine is "over"?

I can not see Putin continuing further unless something else sparks-up.

9 ( +12 / -3 )

there is a 15 points plan that Ukraine can accept and it’s over. mostly about not joining NATO and not hosting foreign troops.

Unless Ukraine is really winning and they want to keep fighting.

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

Peeping Tom - You say you are no fan of the Russians and are just arguing on their behalf as the Devil's Advocate. You seem to be implying that Ukraine should surrender. What terms do you think the Ukrainians would/could accept at this point? What about Russia?

No, he’s just pointing out the facts. What is it with the left and facts. Pointing out the prognosis and dissecting the realities on the ground and who Putin is doesn’t make you by default a fan or stooge or lackey. You’re just calling it for what it is, now it would be great if the msm, this WH and this administration call this crisis for what it is. I personally don’t think Ukraine should give up but without those MiGs and having complete air superiority, they will most likely fail.

-9 ( +3 / -12 )

Yeah because the country that surrenders is entitled to make the winning leader resign. Yep.

-9 ( +4 / -13 )

Blacklabel - I just don't see how Ukraine can trust Putin's guarantees. What would happen if he breaks his word?

8 ( +10 / -2 )

Maybe you ought to "re-assess" your "opponent" again?!

Yeah, maybe we can set aside the Putin’s paper qualifications and actually compare the deeds of him and Zelenskiy.

Putin: so paranoid of assassination or catching Covid that nobody is allowed physically near him, sits at ridiculously long tables, spends most of his time cooped up in his billion dollar villa outside Moscow.

Zelenskiy: Refused to flee while his city is bombarded. Escaped numerous assassination attempts. Demonstrating actual bravery, leading his nation literally while bombs fall all around him. Rallying the western world to his country’s cause.

9 ( +12 / -3 )

Blacklabel - I just don't see how Ukraine can trust Putin's guarantees. What would happen if he breaks his word?

It would return to how it is right now, with Ukrainians being killed. Offer accepted, innocent people stop dying. Even for a day is better than nothing.

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

Bass - He told me that he is playing Devil's Advocate, so he is in fact arguing for Putin here in this exercise (even if doesn't feel this way in his heart). I think you claim would have merit if there weren't also statements of opinion in his response. They weren't all just "facts". At any rate, it's ok to have an opinion here. I know I do.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

@UChosePoorly

Even if you were staunchly against Russia, Putin has never done anything contrary to what he said he would. Their stated goals have remained pretty much the same, if not identical. Even if you hate him, not sure what cause he has given to doubt his consistency.

I mean I suppose you can levy "What if X world leader broke his word" on every international agreement, but that seems like an exercise in futility, because sure they always could do that.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

Blacklabel - unless a pause in the action allows the Russians to resupply and regroup, no?

9 ( +10 / -1 )

Addfwyn - fair points. Do you think Putin will stop with Ukraine, especially if he gets most of what he wants?

7 ( +8 / -1 )

now it would be great if the msm, this WH and this administration call this crisis for what it is

What is it?

4 ( +7 / -3 )

@UChosePoorly

Anything is possible, and eastern europe is not my area of expertise for sure. However, I would be very surprised if any military action past Ukraine was even being considered. I could only see that happening if NATO actually got directly involved, and they have shown enough awareness of the situation to realize what the repercussions of that would be and that it would be a horrible idea for everyone.

Economic, in terms of sanctions both on and from Russia, I would not be surprised if they were continued in both directions even after any military actions stop.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

He told me that he is playing Devil's Advocate, so he is in fact arguing for Putin here in this exercise (even if doesn't feel this way in his heart).

So how is that bad?

I think you claim would have merit if there weren't also statements of opinion in his response. They weren't all just "facts". At any rate, it's ok to have an opinion here. I know I do.

We all do.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

Bass - I'm not saying that it's bad. Just pointing out what he was doing.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

To be fair, Peeping Tom, those attorneys were paid. You are working for free, I assume?

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Blacklabel - unless a pause in the action allows the Russians to resupply and regroup, no?

still X number of days there no one dies. Russia can resupply and regroup now just don’t attack that day.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

Thanks for your response, Addfwyn. I wouldn't expect Putin to just come out and say that he is going to invade anyplace else. He didn't really say he was going to invade Ukraine until the last minute. But reading between the lines a bit, there are certainly intimations that he does indeed have his eye on other countries. I would hope that those countries take these hints a little stronger than Ukraine may have!

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Blacklabel - I suppose if Ukraine sees the value in a ceasefire like this, then they will take it.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Basically Zelensky can’t make up his mind. He wants everyone to fight to the death so that Ukraine still can’t join NATO.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/03/18/russia-ukraine-peace-negotiations/

But the desire to have Putin feel defeated could also make a middle-ground compromise impossible, officials acknowledged, spurring the Russian leader to keep fighting. 

-8 ( +2 / -10 )

However, I would be very surprised if any military action past Ukraine was even being considered.

Really? You've never heard of Transnytria? What is about what Putin's done up till now that leads you to believe military action won't move past Ukraine? Annexed Crimea, Luhansk, and Dombas. And that's just Ukraine alone.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Matthew Hopkins - what narrative are you talking about?

6 ( +7 / -1 )

@zichi

He could have just taken over the eastern region not try and destroy the whole country.

Hypothetically, let's say Russia just moved into Donbas and Luhansk and stopped there.

You think that the Ukranians would not keep bombarding those areas after Russia took them? They've already been doing that for 8 years, I don't think they would suddenly stop because of a hostile occupation. They would double up their bombardment if anything unless disarmed.

How would you solve the situation? American-style doctrine would end the conflict yesterday but it would also just level the entire country, which nobody wants. Normal Russian deep war doctrine would only be marginally better if they utilized it, which they really haven't been. Diplomacy was tried, but the Mingsk accords were quickly broken.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

Basically Zelensky can’t make up his mind. He wants everyone to fight to the death so that Ukraine still can’t join NATO.

I think he has more experience of leading a country during wartime than you do but sure, tell us what he’s thinking.

9 ( +9 / -0 )

Basically Zelensky can’t make up his mind. He wants everyone to fight to the death so that Ukraine still can’t join NATO.

I think at this point Europe needs to take a more stronger lead on this, it is after all in their backyard. We should support them, but when it comes to the MiGs if the US won’t provide them or a NFZ then Europe needs to unite and do it.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

Also, Matthew Hopkins, were you one of the few who got it right when everyone else was saying (hoping?) that Putin wouldn't invade? I must admit, I was mistaken.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

No. I had to look it up but that does not change my mind

A compelling argument.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

I think he has more experience of leading a country during wartime than you do 

Yep 3 whole weeks of “not losing yet”

same article:

“Zelensky will have to sell any peace deal to his own people — a tricky task if he is forced to concede too much. He has been a wildly popular wartime president, but he was an unpopular peacetime one. “

-11 ( +0 / -11 )

Yep 3 whole weeks of “not losing yet”

3 whole weeks more experience than you.

You seem oddly interested in a war despite claiming it has nothing to do with the US.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

I didn’t know that me personally not having any experience leading a country in war time automatically means Zelensky is doing a great job.

that’s an odd deflection.

yep the US should not be involved in this. Media lied that an American was “killed in a breadline” the other day to try to drive American involvement. They (the media and Zelensky both) won’t stop the propaganda until the US is dragged into this.

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

Matthew Hopkins - there are also recent articles in Pravda about the need for de-Nazification in Latvia and Poland. This is the language that Putin has used wrt Ukraine as well. You can understand why these countries might be a bit jumpy, no?

https://www.pravda.ru/world/1689734-latvia_nazi/

https://www.pravda.ru/world/1690791-polska/

6 ( +6 / -0 )

It would be very helpful on here if people gave context to where they get information because I see all sorts that don't seem remotely correct.

Yes, I agree with you, Matthew Hopkins. I try to get my info from open sources and as close to the the events on the ground as is possible. I'm not familiar with the UK Parliament's narrative, but thank you for sharing it.

I have given up on RT.

That is an unusual way to phrase it. RT is of course going to be a bit biased.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Sad to say, but I think Ukraine isn't winning. This is only more propaganda from the media.

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

@UChosePoorly

there are also recent articles in Pravda about the need for de-Nazification in Latvia and Poland. This is the language that Putin has used wrt Ukraine as well. You can understand why these countries might be a bit jumpy, no?

He isn't really wrong about the fascist presence in those countries, but there is a key difference in both Latvia and Poland that doesn't apply to Ukraine.

They are already NATO members. Any attack on them would absolutely trigger Article 5.

This is a huge element of the Ukraine invasion (along with Donbas/Luhansk(, because Russia doesn't want an explicitly anti-Russian military organization having another foothold on their literal border. No country would, remember the Cuban missile crisis?

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

8T - where in the article did it say that Ukraine is winning? Did I miss it?

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Addfwyn - It sounds like Ukraine should have joined as well!

They are already NATO members. Any attack on them would absolutely trigger Article 5.

No country would, 

Including Ukraine?

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Seen from the Kremlin the Sea of Azov "belongs" to Russia and for Putin Mariupol is the fly in the Russian ointment that must be removed. Crimea will remain Russian and the Eastern Russian-speaking Donbas territories are now probably lost to Ukraine. It remains to be seen how far the Russians will push the envelope to create a "Greater Russia" from the southern swathe of Ukrainian lands with Odesa as the jewel in the crown.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

He was however a person who could rally people into one direction.

agreed.

but why rally civilian people to their unnecessary deaths?

there is a deal to be had, take it. Maybe he will after he gets all these billions of dollars from other countries like the US?

problem is that the west won’t allow him to take any deal that shows Putin didn’t lose. That’s the problem with taking money from others now they “own” you.

Biden wants it clear that Putin lost here, when there is no way to show that, no deal can be accepted, more innocents die.

-11 ( +1 / -12 )

there is a deal to be had, take it. Maybe he will after he gets all these billions of dollars from other countries like the US?

No there isn't. You're assuming Putin is reasonable and he is not. Have you read the terms of the deal Putin proposed? It's a joke. That's why he doesn't want to take it.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Blacklabel - would you not fight for your country against an invader even if that invader was bigger and stronger? (as they usually are!)

9 ( +11 / -2 )

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