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© Copyright 2020 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without permission.Some U.S. states accused of fudging or bungling COVID-19 testing data
By MICHELLE R. SMITH, COLLEEN LONG and JEFF AMY PROVIDENCE, R.I.©2024 GPlusMedia Inc.
71 Comments
Steve Martin
WARNING ... Non-political take on science here ...
Either politicians were not required to take basic science classes, or they know the public are not.
But they sure are clever enough to do the following:
1 — use conflict of interest to their advantage
2 — when and how to use 'motivated reasoning'
3 — ask the 'right' questions to give them the preferred answers
4 — fudge data to purposely deceive
5 — design and time experimental controls and variables to produce preferred answers
6 — if there is too much 'real' science, cherry pick the studies that support preferred answers
7 — word the results and implications in such a way as to lead to preferred policies
I think this was attributed to Robert Heinlein ... 'Man is not such so much a rational beast as he is a rationalizing beast.'
At best, I think 'social media' is showing we humans are only occasionally rationalizing beasts at best.
Schools opened, closed, or on-line ... it doesn't make a difference.
Schools serve a combination of social gate-keeping and job-training ... and have very little connection to education or critical thinking skills.
Governance of populations larger than small communities serve the gated-communities of self-interested elites ... and have very little responsibility for 'the people'.
Bold statements.
Looking for evidence?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/19/florida-covid-19-coronavirus-data-researcher-out-state-reopens/5218897002/?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF4BzDYsXTc
If we weren't born with it, I'd suggest we get our horse sense from the pasture.
wtfjapan
Look how that turned for her. History always repeats itself. Go Biden.
yet Biden is now doing better than Hillary in swing states, Trump never had to contend with a collapsed economy, record $6trillion deficit and rising in his 1st term and 100000 dead American civilians, and weve got 6 months to go. I can smell more litigation from more abused women between now and November
wtfjapan
only 6 of 194 deaths were without underlying conditions.
there's another underlying condition, its called "old age" so basically all those grandpa grandma that built America into what it is today, fought for America's freedom in foreign wars are expendable because they had an underlying condition. Just imagine if the virus was allowed to spread for 3 months after it was first reported many could have died of just old age at home in their beds, not at the end of a ventilator in hospital with no family around them.
seriously some people have totally lost any form of morality and decency they think the economy is worth more than thousands of elderly lives
Busby
Uh-huh - who's leading in the polls - Trump or Biden?
Can't admit you were wrong or confused either...
No, his merchandise says it for him - just turn that tie over and see that "Made in China" label - just like on Letterman... So once again, if he's in business with China, how is he being "tough on them"?
Serrano
This is the predictable result when the central government fails to provide protocols and parameters to the states. Invalid CSRF
You must have missed this:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/03.16.20_coronavirus-guidance_8.5x11_315PM.pdf
Invalid CSRF
bass4funk
Look how that turned for her. History always repeats itself. Go Biden.
Deny that Biden will have a difficult time beating Trump, I can deny it, but....
Trump has NEVER said, verbatim that he works with the CCP. Please focus.
Blacklabel
and here come neckties made in 2012 again..........in an article about coronavirus testing data.
Busby
Then when I said Biden was leading in the polls you said; Yes, Hillary was as well last time.
So you agreed with me that Biden is leading in the polls, and also he isn't....care to try one last time?
Sure, all anyone has to do is read the above posts and see that's a fib...why deny the obvious?
Nope, he got caught and humiliated by Letterman after railing against China then showing him to his face that the ties he sells are made in China...did you see the look on his face when he was caught? What humiliation...
Jsapc
Oh yeah, your logic makes sense! Until you actually think about it. Then you realize it's completely ludicrous.
Covid-19 greatly accelerates and multiplies the risk of death for people with pre-existing conditions. That is how this pandemic works. It makes healthy people sick, and sick people much sicker (until they're dead). A lot more weak people died in the past 3 months because of Covid-19 than they would have if the pandemic didn't happen. That fact is so basically simple that it boggles the mind that someone would even try to dispute it. Ken Shimura didn't die on March 29th because he was a smoker and drank alcohol. He died because he caught Covid-19 and his body -weakened by his age and lifestyle- could not fight it. If he hadn't caught it, he would still be alive now.
bass4funk
That’s right.
I did.
He never said, he has business dealings with the CCP.
Busby
What? What you said is in black and white above; If he hadn’t, Obama....I mean, Biden would be leading in the polls now. You never said anything about 45%. Why make things up?
That's because he's already admitted it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVnoc-ISUag
bass4funk
No, I said, Trump is around 45% approval and that’s not good for any challenger to an incumbent.
You can’t prove that, Mueller couldn’t and neither could the Democrats.
Busby
Hmmmm.... Total authority?
But you said Trump was leading in the polls - which is it?
He's in business with the CCP giving them money to make his clothing line - so how's that "taking it" to China?
bass4funk
Thank the governors for that, this lockdown isn’t helping them, because poverty kills too.
Yes, Hillary was as well last time.
But you guys said, he wasn’t for China, get it straight, if he is, blocking Huawei is a great start as well as arresting more and more spies on our college campuses and other businesses.
Busby
I can show you 25 million poor folks standing in the unemployment line, thanks to Trump...
Uh-huh - he signed them...and Biden is leading in the polls...
And so is Donald J. Trump - he's there business partner - so, how is that "taking on China" by giving them millions of dollars in business?
Blacklabel
we dont know that. because someone who is overweight and doesnt have coronavirus will die today.
In fact, many someones. So why are we claiming only the overweight people who sadly got coronavirus would have lived when people who dont even have it didnt live?
bass4funk
Show me poor people that can provide jobs for thousands, take your time.
If he hadn’t, Obama....I mean, Biden would be leading in the polls now.
The entire world is a business partner to China, not just the US.
Busby
Great joke - laughed hard. I know you meant to say the Top 1% Fat Cats...
Uh-huh - he signed them...
China? How? By being their business partner?
bass4funk
Rightfully so, So business people, entrepreneurs and small-business owners can get a tax break?
Tempoary, which is why we need to re-open the country.
And this is why I’m happy that he’s going in taking on China as well as the WHO.
Busby
Who signed the trillion dollar tax cut?
Who signed the billion dollar farm subsidies?
Who signed both trillion dollar socialist bailout packages?
Just ask the guy who uses a Black Sharpie...the one that signed Stormy's payoff check...
Well, you're right and wrong; he will do it again, but he's actually done it six times before - bankruptcy...
Serrano
And finally on top of all of this in the U.S. there will likely be 10 Trillion dollars of new debt this year. That is a disaster.
We can thank the Democrats and the RINOS for this. People don't want handouts, they want to work.
Trump is doing everything possible to make this happen. He did it once, he'll do it again.
Jsapc
Why would you want me to read an article from a rag like the Washington Times? I can pretty much guess what it's gonna say ("The Right Opinion" is a very telling motto), and also that it will be a pile of trash.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-times/
We also rate them Questionable and factually mixed due to poor sourcing, holding editorial positions that are contrary to scientific consensus, and numerous failed fact checks.
But OK, let's do it for the sake of argument:
"SARS-CoV-2, which causes COVID-19, has killed 56,749 Americans as of Tuesday.
That’s not good. But it’s not as bad as the 2017-2018 flu season, when 80,000 -plus perished."
Can I stop reading here? Because it's already outdated, false and inane.
Tokyo-Engr
@Strangerland
I agree with my caveat.
Unfortunately too many people on both "sides" (there should not be "sides" for this issue) perpetuate the politicization of this issue, at least in the U.S. it seems.
More people ought to call out everyone. including those Governors or Mayors imposing overly Draconian measures which they themselves do not follow.
It seems to me people have lost the ability to rationally discuss issues and reach consensus to move forward with solving the problems at hand.
And finally on top of all of this in the U.S. there will likely be 10 Trillion dollars of new debt this year. That is a disaster. There may be a run on wheelbarrows which may be needed to take the cash to buy bread (remember Argentina, Weimar, etc.).....certainly can repeat itself in the U.S.
JJ Jetplane
Bad governments and horrible government officials still get called out regardless of where these idiotic self-serving officials are from.
Serrano
"COVID-19 turning out to be huge hoax perpetrated by media"
Very enlightened opinion. Not crazy at all.
OK, bad choice of words that confuse people like you. In this case "hoax" doesn't refer to the virus itself, it refers to the media's efforts to make people cower in fear with their misinformation and distortions. Did you even bother reading the article?
Jsapc
"COVID-19 turning out to be huge hoax perpetrated by media"
Very enlightened opinion. Not crazy at all.
Raw Beer
"only 6 of 194 deaths were without known underlying conditions" is probably more accurate.
That is exactly what they are doing. Here, in their own words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEQGs12dQ70
JJ Jetplane
@oldman13
Very easy answer. These states are complete idiots. This is a result of having an idiot that can't take responsibility or wants too much responsibility during this crisis. States like Florida that see Wrestling as an essential business was naturally going to be on this list.
Serrano
Never mind the fear mongering by the media to make things look worse than they are. Oh my...
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2020/04/29/mediarsquos_covid-19_fear_mongering_disastrous_for_america_509529.html
Silvafan
@Black
The question would be why would the people wanting to remove the lockdown not want to show the full numbers or accurate total numbers of infections and deaths related to the coronavirus?
bass4funk
I think more people are going to sue the government for not allowing them to go to work and to not take care of their financial responsibilities, I can see more lawsuits headed the governments way on that.
No, they should look at the governors first, for prolonging this and to keep people locked down for as long as they can, the president did support limited opening in some areas where the infection rate is low, but that’s not what these liberal governors want.
Yup.
So if it’s a left wing authoritarian, it’s ok?
Silvafan
@AlphaApe
Once again, to support those people who think the coronavirus isn't serious and those who believe that it is a serious matter, mass testing with accurate and honest information is needed. Instead of suppressing data or having little concern for the lives of others because it doesn't benefit you.
Understanding how deadly the disease is and how many people really have it matters crucially to developing a public health response and preparing hospitals and the health-care system around the world.
Jsapc
If Covid deaths aren't preventable, how come it's not evenly killing the same number of people in every country? How come Korea only had 263 deaths? Japan only 773? And many other examples.
Again, they don't all die suddenly and at the same time. Your logic is inherently flawed because you assume that people with asthma, obese people or any person with a preexisting condition who dies each day of Covid-19 would have died that day anyway. And that is completely untrue. You can live a long time with a prexisting condition. You can't live a long time with a prexisting condition AND Covid-19. The disease is a very necessary part of the equation, and taking it out from it only serves to make the situation appear less dire than it is.
Silvafan
@AlphaApe
Any podcast, guest on a podcast, or any media whether it be liberal, conservative, or anywhere in between that push dangerous unproven conspiracy theories or dangerous unproven medical advice should be criticized until proven correct.
How do you know this? Please provide evidence!
Some politicians are good communicators. They don't all use sophisticated vocabulary like "super duper missile" or walk away when they can't express themselves.
Alphaape
So just because someone may speak on a conservative podcast they should be disbelieved is what I'm reading. I will say this, you ever notice how people like Gavin Newsome and Mayor Garcetti don't speak to the press unless they are fully vetted and know what's being asked.
But along those lines, there is money to be made when the death certificate lists "corona" on it. It's not so much the for profit hospitals, but the state governments also get money, and they need it to make up from the money they are losing while kids are not in school (Federal money is also given out based on numbers of students in school per days).
What i get perplexed with is when states start to open up, and immediately the press reports a spike in cases. Just this weekend they did that with Georgia, and noted over a 3 day period an increase in cases. However, weren't we told that it takes up to 14 days so if there were an increase in cases, then those folks would have been infected while stay at home orders were in place. Also with increased testing that everyone was demanding you naturally would see an increase in cases. What is not being told is the numbers of cases of people recovering, nor based on the increased in testing the percentage of the population size.
Blacklabel
If COVID deaths are preventable as you keep saying, why has no country prevented them?
And its definitely not "who cares" as you claim, but yes people died every single day prior to coronavirus. Of the same exact things that are now in some cases being called "coronavirus deaths" instead.
Pennsylvania and Colorado actually decreased their coronavirus death numbers once they realized that. several other states should likely review their numbers as well.
Jsapc
And there is obviously a political element that wants as few deaths as possible, so people will choose where they stand morally by themselves, I guess. "Covid-19 deaths are preventable" vs "Who cares? People die anyway".
Blacklabel
how do we know its "early" for each individual person when people die from obesity at different ages (without coronavirus) every single day? Again if only obese people with coronavirus died, I would see the connection.
But fair enough, difference of opinion always makes for good conversation.
Blacklabel
this is the case of everyone who dies from high blood pressure, it was "under control", then one day it isnt and they pass away. I would accept your argument if no one ever died from high blood pressure except those who contracted coronavirus, But there are 1300 deaths from just high blood pressure everyday.
Anyway, you are more than entitled to your way of thinking. I wont be changing your mind on this, just something to consider. Just my opinion and way of thinking about this issue. I feel there is a political element that wants as many deaths as possible to be added to this specific tally, and I dont agree with that.
Blacklabel
the "actual data" is what is under dispute. Specifically, this article takes the position that it should be a much higher number than has already been counted. why would someone want a higher reported death count?
politics. as the only deaths that have any political capital are the ones that can be added to some running death count for coronavirus.
Yubaru
You are using an illogical conclusion to justify your argument, even though you are wrong.
Silvafan
@oldman
They think that the current Japan leadership and the US leadership are incompetent criminals, and their response to the outbreak was “so screwed up” and that those in power “aren’t even pretending to be in charge”.
Yubaru
The link I gave you showed it! People who die from underlying conditions, and who do not test positive for the corona virus died because of their conditions or whatever.
BUT for you to say that those who test positive for the virus and have underlying conditions, and died, did so because of their conditions, and not because of the corona is choosing to be ignorant to the fact that the virus aided and possibly was the cause of their death!
No intelligent person is going to argue that they died because of, lets say, high blood pressure, which was under the care of the doctor, and under control, after contracting the virus, and then die.
Busby
It's actually more than Vietnam and Korea COMBINED. And you just quoted Trump's legacy...
I think the better question is; If you are over 70, morbidly obese, have insomnia, eat nothing but Big Macs, and decide to take a medication that causes heart issues, are you really a moron?
Strangerland
This is a direct result of incompetent leadership, resulting in the issue becoming so politicized that instead of respecting actual data, people are manipulating it to better represent their political viewpoint.
Which, when fighting a virus that doesn't give one whit about your political affiliations, identifies these people as the lower rungs of the humanity intelligence ladder.
Blacklabel
if you are overweight and fine, but then get the coronavirus and die, what really killed you?
Had you not been overweight, you likely would have recovered from corona as most non overweight people did.
So I say being overweight killed you. Of course it is subject to argument, but to me it isnt an unreasonable conclusion.
Blacklabel
no different than having a running daily death count for political purposes. its more than Vietnam! its 10 times the 9/11!
a running count that includes deaths actually caused by underlying conditions, not coronavirus.
That doesnt deduct the number of people who lived because of coronavirus lockdowns.
How is coronavirus death "preventable"? its not, especially in people with underlying conditions who make up 95% of the deaths.
Even Cuomo just said we have to do the "best we can" to fight it.
Yubaru
So? Your argument is still far off the mark, these you claim here, who died from "underlying conditions" were not assisted in their passing along by the corona virus,
You can NOT also automatically assume that those who have conditions will automatically die either, whether or not they contract the virus!
Oh and while nearly 8,000 people die every day in the US, those "underlying conditions" you talk about, INCLUDE, automobile deaths (Right drivers are the "underlying conditions) murders (people problem) ilness, and all sorts of other reasons, not all due to illness as you attempt to obfuscate here!
https://www.indexmundi.com/blog/index.php/2018/03/05/how-many-people-die-a-day-in-the-us/
(These numbers DO NOT include those who died from the Corona Virus, which is quickly becoming the number one killer of American's)
COVID 19 is closing in on being the NUMBER ONE killer of American's per week!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/04/16/coronavirus-leading-cause-death/?arc404=true
Tokyo-Engr
It is sad this becomes an argument or issue of "conservative" or "liberal". I doubt the true number of cases or deaths from cases will ever be known. It also seems there is some censorship of ideas or facts that are not in full agreement with WHO (The Youtube CEO, Susan Wojcicki said this in no uncertain terms).
Without the free exchange of ideas and when people do not seem willing to listen to each other the truth becomes illusive or impossible to find.
talaraedokko
Oldman_13, I can accept science but not the scientists..or politicians or .. Regardless, they have to reopen at some time. It'll never be a perfect situation; it'll always be a call. 仕方が無い. We know to be careful, clean, etc. If after 3 months we're not ready, we never will be.
Blacklabel
Why would I be ashamed. You have to know that during a 3 month period some of those 194 people with underlying conditions would have died from the underlying conditions. How many, who knows? not all of them, but not none of them either.
Each day 11 people die from asthma. People who would live if they just lost weight, do they actually lose the weight? data shows 822 deaths per day for obesity.
You should also know that some people without underlying conditions are alive when they wouldnt have been. Fewer DUIs/car accident deaths, murders, drownings, etc. again, how many lived that would have died? who knows?
I guess we can see when the yearly data is available.
But you have to look at both sides when you are looking at the "what if" scenario.
starpunk
We had people gathering en masse in bars and on the street in my home city, and the establishments were fined. Not to mention the terrorist 'protestor' scum carrying gats, Nazi flags and such.
Too many Americans just aren't using their noodles here!
Jsapc
No, that's not my claim. Everybody dies someday, of course. But not as the same time, and not because of the same virus. Obese people, for example, have much higher death rates from the coronavirus and are put them in the "underlying conditions" category. But you can actually lose weight and live a long and healthy life. Except when you die from Covid-19. Then you can't do anything. You can also live a pretty normal and long life with asthma. That's an underlying condition too. You can live... Until you get Covid-19 and die a painful death. Then you can't do anything. You're dead and your family is crying, and now they also have to listen to dishonest politicians and their supports on the internet dismissing their loved one's death for some pathetic political gain.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
SuperLib
The country is starting to open up. Not sure what Trump fans are complaining about now. Did you want fewer requirements for cleaning, social distancing, facemasks, etc?
Blacklabel
There is nothing dishonest about being conservative or wanting to reopen.
is your claim that none of these people with underlying conditions would have died, absent coronavirus infection? Despite 95% of corona deaths having underlying conditions?
if you claim that, they you also need to claim the other side. That coronavirus has “saved” the lives of people who didn't die on car accidents, drownings or murders due to the lockdowns.
Jsapc
It's usually much more honest to give context on the very dishonest people you're quoting.
Blacklabel
People actually died before coronavirus came on the scene. Like 7700 per day in the USA.
specifically from “underlying conditions”.
Illyas
Or you know, the total number of infections is correlated with population size and Brazil has 211m people, Russia 141m people, and the US 332m people, all of which are higher than any other country in Europe or North/South America. When normalized for population level, most 'social democratic' European countries are faring very similarly. It's intellectually dishonest of you to ignore this and try to use this pandemic to condemn your ideological opponents.
Yubaru
When are people going to stop using this argument?
It's like saying the scratch on their arm is what killed the guy who just got run over by a Mack truck!
So what if they had "underlying conditions" damn near everyone on the planet has some type of underlying condition, and if they hadn't caught the virus they still would be alive!
Blacklabel
only 6 of 194 deaths were without underlying conditions.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/story/2020-05-13/supervisor-jim-desmond-says-san-diego-has-only-had-six-pure-coronavirus-deaths
Blacklabel
Not a mention of Pennsylvania or Colorado who admitted they over reported deaths and revised their death figures downward.
Tokyo-Engr
In the United States several doctors have pointed out that they have been encouraged to identify the Coronavirus as a cause of death even though this was not known with certainty. The reason? The U.S. private health care system is based on money...cold hard cash. When the CARES Act was passed it was determined that Medicare will pay hospitals a 20% "add-on" for COVID-19 patients.
Two doctors in California, who are actually caring for these patients, had the "audacity" to post something about this on You Tube and it was removed.
I actually had a chance to watch their presentation and they sounded like very level headed people but I guess someone else should tell us (like children) what we can read, listen to, or hear.
If I had to guess I would guess the amount of deaths in the U.S. is over stated. But that is just a guess.
The Avenger
It didn't take a molecular virologist to see this one coming . . .
The fix was in the moment Donald Trump and his cronies got involved. They don't think twice about endangering American lives in order to line the pockets of their friends and win an election. In their eyes, the end justifies the means . . .
We owe Rebekah Jones, Rep. Jasmine Clark, and Thomas Tsai a huge debit of gratitude for speaking out on this misinformation campaign to mislead the American people and put their lives in danger.
PTownsend
The lawsuits from all the government bungles will keep courts tied up for years. How many individuals will sue some government entity because they got sick from the virus after the government said it was OK to return to work.
Shameful. Rot starts at the top. Start with the president, then look at governors. The deaths and damage to the economy are on their heads.
Russia and Brazil are led by right wing authoritarians, the US by a right wing authoritarian wannabe.
theFu
They put their athletic drug testing team in charge?
I don't assume Georgia's misrepresentation of the data was done on purpose. Could have been someone using AutoSort in a spreadsheet to get the top 5 counties, but didn't unclick it again or sort by date next. I've had to deal with a few Georgia state agencies. While they were pleasant, the aptitude seemed to be lacking.
Initially, Georgia updated the posted data daily at noon. Then they updated it 2x a day. Yesterday, the site said they were updating it 3x daily. Georgia only publishes "confirmed" cases, not "likely" cases. I'm always unclear how Reuters and NYT get different numbers and show "likely" cases. At this point, I'd trust both those sources before the GA-Health Dept.
We'll be staying home for at least another 2 weeks here in Squidbilly-land. Then we'll look at the data, such as it is, and decide next steps. About 30% of my friends want to meet for drinks and meals. They are actually a little frustrated that we refuse and have said it will probably be mid-June, but data will drive our decision. Could be October with the way things look here.
quercetum
We’ve seen this about Italy, China, Japan, US, it is what it is. Everybody needs to buy time, have a cushion.
oldman_13
Fascinating.
I wonder what our American friends on this website who spared no mercy in crucifying every single thing Japanese people did in regards to coronavirus response think.