Germany Ukraine War
FILE -- A Leopard 2A6 tank from the Bundeswehr's Panzer exercise bataillon 93 fires at the Oberlausitz training area in Weisskeissel, Germany, Aug. 12, 2009. The German government has confirmed it will provide Ukraine with Leopard 2 battle tanks and approve requests by other countries to do the same. Chancellor Olaf Scholz said Wednesday that Germany was “acting in close coordination” with its allies. (Ralf Hirschberger/dpa via AP, file)
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U.S., Germany sending battle tanks to aid Ukraine war effort

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By FRANK JORDANS, KIRSTEN GRIESHABER and SAMYA KULLAB

Germany and the United States announced Wednesday that they will send battle tanks to Ukraine, the first stage of a coordinated effort by the West to provide dozens of the heavy weapons to help Kyiv break combat stalemates as Russia’s invasion enters its 12th month.

U.S. President Joe Biden said the U.S. will send 31 M1 Abrams tanks, reversing months of persistent arguments by Washington that they were too difficult for Ukrainian troops to operate and maintain.

The U.S. decision follows Germany agreeing to send 14 Leopard 2 A6 tanks from its own stocks. Germany had said the Leopards would not be sent unless the U.S. put its Abrams on the table, not wanting to incur Russia’s wrath without the U.S. making a similar commitment.

“This is the result of intensive consultations, once again, with our allies and international partners,” Chancellor Olaf Scholz told German lawmakers. “It was right, and it is important that we didn’t let ourselves be driven" into the decision.

Biden said European allies have agreed to send enough tanks to equip two Ukrainian tank battalions, or a total of 62 tanks.

“With spring approaching, Ukrainian forces are working to defend the territory they hold and preparing for additional counter offenses,” Biden said. “To liberate their land, they need to be able to counter Russia’s evolving tactics and strategy on the battlefield in the very near term.”

Several European countries have equipped their armies with Leopard 2 tanks, and Germany's announcement means they can give some of their stocks to Ukraine.

“German main battle tanks, further broadening of defense support and training missions, green light for partners to supply similar weapons. Just heard about these important and timely decisions in a call with Olaf Scholz,” Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy wrote on Twitter. “Sincerely grateful to the chancellor and all our friends in (Germany).”

Ukrainian soldiers on the front lines welcomed the news, saying the decision comes at a critical point.

“Tanks will help reduce casualties among our soldiers … then gain new results and win this war quicker,” said Oleksander Syrotiuk, commander of a company in the 17th Tank Brigade deployed in Bakhmut.

Ukrainian soldiers and experts said Ukrainian forces are running low on spare parts to repair old Soviet-era tanks and the specific ammunition they require while enduring relentless barrages of Russian artillery. An expected springtime Russian offensive is also looming.

Though it will take months before their debut, the tanks will enable Ukraine’s forces to launch counter-offensives and reduce casualties, three military commanders, including two in the army’s tank division, told The Associated Press.

“Without the new tanks, we cannot win this war,” said Maksim Butolin, chief sergeant of the 54th Brigade’s Tank Division. He spoke to the AP by phone earlier this week from near the Bakhmut front.

Ukrainian forces have had to preserve ammunition and deal with frequent breakdowns and maintenance issues, Syrotiuk said.

“The main problem we have with our tanks is they are old,” he said.

Expressing a preference for the Leopard 2, which he said was more suitable for Ukraine’s terrain, Syrotiuk said the modern tanks had more precise targeting systems, better armor and equipment to allow nighttime operations.

Scholz spoke by phone Wednesday with Biden, French President Emmanuel Macron, British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and Italian Premier Giorgia Meloni, the German chancellery said in a statement. The exchange focused on the security situation in Ukraine and continued support for Ukraine’s fight.

All five leaders agreed to continue military support to Ukraine in close Euro-Atlantic coordination.

The $400 million package announced Wednesday by the U.S. also includes eight M88 recovery vehicles — tank-like tracked vehicles that can tow the Abrams if it gets stuck.

Altogether, France, the UK, the U.S., Poland, Germany, the Netherlands and Sweden will send hundreds of tanks and heavy armored vehicles to fortify Ukraine as it enters a new phase of the war and attempts to break through entrenched Russian lines.

While Ukraine's supporters previously have supplied tanks, they were Soviet models in the stockpiles of countries that once were in Moscow's sphere of influence but are now aligned with the West. Zelenskyy and other Ukrainian officials insisted their forces need more modern Western-designed tanks.

Russia's ambassador to Germany, Sergey Nechayev, called Berlin’s decision “extremely dangerous,” saying it “shifts the conflict to a new level of confrontation and contradicts the statements of German politicians about their reluctance to get involved in it.”

Scholz had insisted that any decision to provide Ukraine with the powerful tanks would need to be taken in conjunction with Germany's allies, chiefly the U.S. By getting Washington to commit some of its own tanks, Berlin hopes to share the risk of any backlash from Russia.

Ekkehard Brose, head of the German military’s Federal Academy for Security Policy, noted the deeper historical significance of the decision.

“German-made tanks will face off against Russian tanks in Ukraine once more,” he said, adding that this was “not an easy thought” for Germany, which takes seriously its responsibility for the horrors of World War II.

“And yet it is the right decision,” Brose said, arguing that it was up to Western democracies to help Ukraine stop Russia’s military campaign.

German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius cautioned that it would take about three months for the first tanks to be deployed in Ukraine. He described the Leopard 2 as “the best battle tank in the world.”

The German government said it planned to swiftly begin training Ukrainian tank crews in Germany. The package being put together would also include logistics, ammunition and maintenance.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov described German and U.S. intentions as a “a rather disastrous plan.”

“I am convinced that many specialists understand the absurdity of this idea,” Peskov said.

“Simply because of technological aspects, this is a rather disastrous plan. The main thing is, this is a completely obvious overestimation of the potential (the supply of tanks) would add to the armed forces of Ukraine. It is yet another fallacy, a rather profound one,” the Kremlin official said.

Peskov predicted “these tanks will burn down just like all the other ones. ... Except they cost a lot, and this will fall on the shoulders of European taxpayers.” he added.

Ahead of Scholz's official announcement, members of his three-party coalition government welcomed the Cabinet's agreement to supply the domestically made tanks.

“The Leopard’s freed!” German lawmaker Katrin Goering-Eckardt, a senior Green party lawmaker, said.

However, two smaller opposition parties criticized the move. The far-right Alternative for Germany, which has friendly ties to Russia, called the decision “irresponsible and dangerous.”

“Germany risks being drawn directly into the war as a result,” party co-leader Tino Chrupalla said.

Scholz sought to reassure people in his country who were concerned about the implications of sending tanks to Ukraine.

“Trust me, trust the government,” he said. “By acting in an internationally coordinated manner, we will ensure that this support is possible without the risks to our country growing in the wrong direction.”

Other European nations, such as Finland and Spain, indicated a willingness Wednesday to part with their own Leopard or similar battle tanks as part of a larger coalition.

Associated Press writers Lolita C. Baldor and Matthew Lee in Washington, Vanessa Gera in Warsaw and Jill Lawless in London contributed to this report.

© Copyright 2023 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without permission.

©2023 GPlusMedia Inc.


131 Comments

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Been, as I do watching Russian Tv, first they were saying we should nuclear attack England, now saying Berlin? Down playing the Tank transfers, “we will destroy them” ,”not a problem” I don’t think so. Russian tanks looses even by conservative figures are catastrophic.. on top of that Western equipment is a generation or two ahead of Russian equipment. And as an aside they continue to say that everyone who supports the Ukraine is a satanist? It’s just so stupid.

12 ( +25 / -13 )

It’s a bit late in the day but welcome news nonetheless. More is needed and yesterday.

13 ( +22 / -9 )

Weird. Been hearing for the better part of a year that Ukraine is winning yet, every month NATO needs to escalate still more.

The Russians on Telegram, which includes guys on the front, are saying the German tanks are better than the American tanks but still far inferior to the T-90 and all that venture to the front, and they are doubting that will be many, will be destroyed.

-23 ( +11 / -34 )

When will Putin understand that his ego is being defeated by the rest of the world? These tanks are only the beginning of what is next to come for this man of little faith.

9 ( +20 / -11 )

“German-made tanks will face off against Russian tanks in Ukraine once more,” he said, adding that this was “not an easy thought” for Germany, which takes seriously its responsibility for the horrors of World War II.

The Russians took out over 1000 German tanks in the Battle of Kursk (not far from modern day Donestk) 80 years ago.

The Germans underestimated the resolve and fortitude of the Russian people then and they do so again today.

-26 ( +12 / -38 )

Weird. Been hearing for the better part of a year that Ukraine is winning yet, every month NATO needs to escalate still more.

Weird. I heard a year ago that Russia expected to take over Kyiv in 72 hours. Yet every month more and more Russians are dying.

21 ( +32 / -11 )

Easy way to dispose of expensive hardware so new one can be procured. Fleecing of coffers through defense.

-17 ( +11 / -28 )

Because we all know "the world" consists of only most of North America, most of Europe and Japan

They're not wrong though. The number of countries that support Russian imperialism is small.

12 ( +24 / -12 )

The Germans underestimated the resolve and fortitude of the Russian people then and they do so again today.

And Russia underestimated the resolve and fortitude of the Ukrainian people. Putin thought they’d roll in and take the country. Over a thousand smoldering Russian tanks later…

22 ( +29 / -7 )

Weird. I heard a year ago that Russia expected to take over Kyiv in 72 hours.

The Russians were smart. They never went for Kiev.

They immediately seized the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Plant, which is the largest atomic power plant in Europe and is the true gem of the region.

Every attempt to take the plant from the Russians has failed and sending NATO tanks into a nuclear plant is something even Zelensky won't do (I hope).

I suspect the Russians will never give up the key to that gem.

-22 ( +13 / -35 )

The Russians were smart. They never went for Kiev.

Heh, that's like the guy who hits on a girl out of his league, then when she denies him, tries to claim he never wanted her in the first place.

While everyone looks on and thinks "how pathetic".

(In this case, "everyone" is the entire world that is not part of Russia's tiny little neighborhood)

14 ( +26 / -12 )

The Russian T-90 is just a modified T-72. The Russians originally designated it the T-72BU. The old Soviet Army had two kinds of tanks. They built their best tanks, faster, more advanced technology and better armored tanks like the T-80 and before that the T-64 for their armored divisions and a less expensive and less capable model, the T-72 and before that the T-62 for use with their motor rifle divisions, what the west would call mechanized infantry.

The T-90 is the most developed example of the latter. It's a T-72 with the fire control from the T-80 (which the Russians no longer build) along with some improvements to the reactive armor, gun sights, hull and automotive equipment. It uses the same gun as the T-72 and T-80, and has all the weaknesses inherent in the T-72 design. It was re-designated from T-72BU to T-90 after Desert Storm. T-72s did so poorly in that war, the global image of them was a burned out hull with the turret laying some meters away and the engine blown out the back of the tank, that the Russians felt a need to re-brand their new tank to avoid association with the T-72. It appears te fanbois have bought the lies in the Russian marketing scheme and believe the T-90 is something special. It isn't. It's just a tarted up T-72.

14 ( +21 / -7 )

Axel & Bronco,

"They never went for Kiev."

"The Russians took out over 1000 German tanks in the Battle of Kursk."

Wrong! They tried to conquer Kyiv (mind the spelling) within their 3-day-limited-operation!

Complete failure - now more than 300 days and little to nothing achieved (besides thousands of body bags being returned to RuSSia).

Why worry about what happened roughly 80 years ago? Times have changed and even with this so far symbolic delivery of MTBs (many more to come!) Ukraine will be able to defend their freedom. T-90 won't have many chances to survive and will be turned into scrap metal (or re-supplying Ukraine's forces).

Ukraine prevails!

13 ( +24 / -11 )

The Russians were smart.

Do you think getting bogged down in Ukraine and causing thousands of deaths is 'smart'?

I guess you think the west sending waves of heavy armour to Ukraine is 'good news'. You plainly live in a reality disconnected from what is actually going on there.

16 ( +24 / -8 )

Kursk tank battle was a defensive battle for Russia and come on!, it was a long time ago. Things have changed. The Ukrainian people fought against Nazis with bravery and determination. To now slather them with suddenly being Nazi? That is just stupid. Every Ukrainian family lost a family member to nazi atrocities, and Stalins purges, forced deportation. You can’t pick and choose history. What is happening now is a page in history that will not make Russia look good.

12 ( +22 / -10 )

I heard a year ago that Russia expected to take over Kyiv in 72 hours.

Strangerland, U heard but who said? Une petite citateon with the words. WHO?

-15 ( +7 / -22 )

Nobody outside of a classified environment can say with any authority whether the Leopard 2 ( which version, the most recent is the 2A7 ) is superior to the Abrams ( same question, M-1A2 or M-1A2SEP ? ) . In any event at that level of technology, crew training, crew motivation and tactics matter more than the particular piece of equipment in determining the outcome of a battle.

Both tanks are vastly better than any Russian tank. If you go back to their inception they were designed to fight a numerically superior Soviet army with half again as many tanks as NATO could field, fight in any weather across central Europe, shooting while moving at higher speeds than any other tanks can achieve. The M-1 in particular is exceptionally fast for a military vehicle, faster them many trucks on flat terrain. So is the M-2 Bradley because they were designed to operate together. Both have highly classified composite armors that in the case of the M-1 and Challenger are proven to defeat Russian APSFDS rounds. Both the M-1 and Challenger were scoring single shot kills on T-72s while moving and did so at ranges so great the allied tanks were firing from beyond the detection range of the sensors on the T-72s. Faster, better armor, better sensors, faster rate of fire and able to shoot accurately while moving. The Americans and Germans designed those tanks with fear in their hearts worried about being overwhelmed by a numerically superior Soviet Army and they devoted as much time developing tactics to exploit their strengths, and the Russian tanks several important weaknesses.

9 ( +18 / -9 )

The Russians took out over 1000 German tanks in the Battle of Kursk (not far from modern day Donestk) 80 years ago.

Sigh.

10 ( +16 / -6 )

Btw, what got the attention of NATO way back when, and the reason the Abrams and Leopard 2 are so fast, is it was observed one day a column of Soviet T-64s on an East German autobahn steaming along at over 100 kph. That got everyone's attention. No western tank could come close to such speeds. The tactical advantages are obvious and sent the US and German engineers scrambling for an answer.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

I predicted this two days ago:

Just watch. Soon, Germany will allow all Leopard 2 tanks to be delivered to Ukraine. And then they will offer some of their own surplus Leopard 2 tanks.

6 ( +12 / -6 )

Yes, they are apparently smart enough to convince you that they are smart.

The Russians were smart. They never went for Kiev.

They immediately seized the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Plant, which is the largest atomic power plant in Europe and is the true gem of the region.

Every attempt to take the plant from the Russians has failed and sending NATO tanks into a nuclear plant is something even Zelensky won't do (I hope).

I suspect the Russians will never give up the key to that gem.

9 ( +14 / -5 )

Weird. I heard a year ago that Russia expected to take over Kyiv in 72 hours.

The Russians were smart. They never went for Kiev.

Most Russians now feel they would have been smarter if they had never went for Ukraine!

As the Russian body bags pile up that sentiment grows stronger.

One can only hope Putin ends his misthought imperialist aggression against Ukraine and accepts peace, and defeat, gracefully. And soon!

17 ( +22 / -5 )

The demands never end. Just like the corruption.

“Ukraine will now push for F-16 fighter jets, government adviser says”

-18 ( +7 / -25 )

And then you have the Anarcho-Communist Combat Organization, one of several Russia based anti-war groups (in this case with an extreme communist ideology) sabotaging rail lines, recruiting offices and other state activities to try to slow the war against Ukraine. It is stuff you do not see mentioned in the popular western press.

https://autonomies.org/2022/08/russia-the-anarcho-communist-combat-organization/

4 ( +10 / -6 )

The demands never end. Just like the corruption.

The Putin love never ends, just like the delusions.

Thanks for the tanks x x

11 ( +19 / -8 )

Blacklabel

The demands never end. Just like the corruption.

“Ukraine will now push for F-16 fighter jets, government adviser says”

Good move. The US should send them.

17 ( +22 / -5 )

@bronco The Russians took out over 1000 German tanks in the Battle of Kursk (not far from modern day Donestk) 80 years ago.

The above an example of those still glorying in a time long ago when they believed their empire was 'great and glorious': fortunately progress has made tanks much better especially for those nations able to progress. It should not be surprising that those who prefer to live in the past disdain notions of progress.

8 ( +14 / -6 )

“Ukraine will now push for F-16 fighter jets, government adviser says”

Absolutely they need them to complete the air / ground combined arms combat team. They can join the waiting list though. Lockheed Martin has a backlog of orders for new F-16s that will take years to fulfill and existing F-16s in the USAF inventory have equipment that cannot be transferred even to NATO allies. Poland wanted some used USAF F-16s to replace MiG-29s they wanted to give the Ukrainians and the US said that was not possible because of said equipment. However as some other NATO nations F-16s are replaced by F-35s that may free them up for transfer to Ukraine.

10 ( +15 / -5 )

Any updates on azov. You haven’t mentioned them much for the last 9 months.

> Turkey was the intermedium. Some of the Azov people were exchanged for Russian captives, some (presumably those who committed crimes: executions of civilians, rape, abuse of captives and civilians) will go to trial or a tribunal. The leaders (under the contract) remained in Turkey.

-8 ( +4 / -12 )

headline of article should be

US,Germany prolonging war,abolished any peace negotiations efforts.

its more accurate and exact expression.

-20 ( +5 / -25 )

The Russians were smart. They never went for Kiev.

Oh yes they did, but they got their butts kicked by ATGM shooting UA forces. Then they ran out of fuel and the crews walked away.

17 ( +21 / -4 )

The demands never end. Just like the corruption.

Yeah they're fighting a war for their existence as a free and sovereign state.

You know what else never ends? Rightists complaining about helping Ukrainians defend their freedom.

13 ( +20 / -7 )

Wrong! They tried to conquer Kyiv (mind the spelling) within their 3-day-limited-operation!

Actually, the Russians seized Kiev airport with ease and held it with ease and they returned it after phase I of the operation was complete.

They never wanted the city of Kiev.

Feeding 3 million people and keeping them warm and supplied during wartime is a messy business. The Russian military doesn't want to shoulder that burden.

They are after Russian speaking areas and strategic assets like Europe's biggest nuclear plant and the ports in Maruipol and Sevastopol.

Keeping the lights on in Kiev is meant to be Zelensky's problem, and militarily that was done to keep Zelensky's regime in disarray and confusion.

-21 ( +7 / -28 )

You know what else never ends? Rightists complaining about helping Ukrainians defend their freedom.

They still haven’t digested that Zelenskyy didn’t roll over for the corrupt “do us a favor” guy.

9 ( +14 / -5 )

Oh yes they did, but they got their butts kicked by ATGM shooting UA forces. Then they ran out of fuel and the crews walked away.

No, they left Kiev like Kherson without any shooting, They just left.

One more inconvenient question: WHO said about "kicking"? Pro-ukr dump Reuters?

-14 ( +4 / -18 )

The "rest of the world" is going to defeat Russia. Meanwhile in South Africa, standing with the president of the country, the Russian foreign minister listens to school girls perform a famous Soviet war song........ But if China, India and South America aren't part of the "the world", obviously South Africa isn't.

Are South Africa sending tanks to Russia? Just school girls singing a song? Is it like Band Aud?

10 ( +16 / -6 )

A source or date would be helpful.

Quel soure u want???? CNN, Reuters, BBC???? They don't write about it. And you!!! You don't read anything but your fake shots. Read Russ telegram

-12 ( +4 / -16 )

BIDEN: "...all to help counter Ukraine's brutal aggression that's happening because of Russia."

ukraine’s brutal aggression?

-15 ( +3 / -18 )

A source or date would be helpful.

Quel soure u want???? CNN, Reuters, BBC???? They don't write about it. And you!!! You don't read anything but your fake shots. Read Russ telegram

I’m sorry. You’re just not making any sense.

14 ( +17 / -3 )

Thanks for the tanks x x

They haven’t even been built yet.

Fall this year or early 2024?

-12 ( +5 / -17 )

ukraine’s brutal aggression?

Right, because no president ever misspoke before Biden. Lol

See, the complaining is unending.

10 ( +16 / -6 )

Are South Africa sending tanks to Russia?

Russia does not need anyone's tanks. Russia has several times more tanks than you altogetherю Will see how your leopards will ride along the swampy bottom of the Dnieper

-18 ( +3 / -21 )

“But America’s plans to send a largely symbolic 30 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, according to two US officials familiar with the deliberations, have emboldened Germany enough to drop its objections to the Leopard.

It provided a NATO umbrella for the move, even if it will take months, maybe years, to get the logistically complex American main battle tank into play.”

So basically just extending the war out for years more instead of forcing some negotiations.

-11 ( +6 / -17 )

 They let them go again? Seems kind of dumb and against what they claimed the whole thing us about.

Yes, some of them will go again. No one of them will be taken in captivity.

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

The Germans underestimated the resolve and fortitude of the Russian people then and they do so again today.

Not to mention the Russians own the largest nuclear arsenal. Keep pushing this guy..

-9 ( +7 / -16 )

U.S., Germany sending battle tanks to aid Ukraine war effort

Headline needs to change:

U.S., Germany sending battle tanks to aid U.S., European war effort in Ukraine.

Invalid CSRF

-14 ( +6 / -20 )

Blacklabel

“But America’s plans to send a largely symbolic 30 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, according to two US officials familiar with the deliberations, have emboldened Germany enough to drop its objections to the Leopard.

It provided a NATO umbrella for the move, even if it will take months, maybe years, to get the logistically complex American main battle tank into play.”

So basically just extending the war out for years more instead of forcing some negotiations.

NATO understands that the fastest road to peace is arming Ukraine to drive Putin out.

10 ( +18 / -8 )

hello to all experts above.

let us know how long will take for UA to win over Russia when they finally get NATO tanks.

thanks for your thoughts.

-14 ( +7 / -21 )

Well then maybe they shouldn't have attacked, bombed, and ostracized their own Russian speaking citizens for 8 years.

Well then maybe Russia shouldn't been arming separatists there for 8 years. This doesn't justify Russia invading and annexing Ukrainian lands. Pathetic

8 ( +14 / -6 )

NATO understands that the fastest road to peace is arming Ukraine to drive Putin out.

With what? Stuff that will arrive in months or years? It’s just virtue signaling by the US and Europe to keep sacrificing Ukrainians daily for their proxy war.

just hold on until next year we have 31 tanks coming!

-12 ( +7 / -19 )

So basically just extending the war out for years more instead of forcing some negotiations.

The tough right want to appease Russia.

When do you plan to add pandering to that?

11 ( +18 / -7 )

just hold on until next year we have 31 tanks coming!

The war will unfortunately quite likely continue into next year, fortunately so will US support.

8 ( +15 / -7 )

Headline needs to change:

U.S., Germany sending battle tanks to aid U.S., European war effort in Ukraine.

Well that's just silly. Europe has not invaded anyone, nor is Europe warring with anyone. The war in question is unilateral by Russia, against a foreign nation.

Do you also blame rape victims?

10 ( +16 / -6 )

Blacklabel

NATO understands that the fastest road to peace is arming Ukraine to drive Putin out.

With what? Stuff that will arrive in months or years? It’s just virtue signaling by the US and Europe to keep sacrificing Ukrainians daily for their proxy war.

just hold on until next year we have 31 tanks coming!

That's just the Abrams tanks. Ukraine will be mainly using the Leopard 2's that the get from the European nations.

As you yourself quoted "But America’s plans to send a largely symbolic 30 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, according to two US officials familiar with the deliberations, have emboldened Germany enough to drop its objections to the Leopard."

9 ( +13 / -4 )

Well that's just silly. Europe has not invaded anyone, nor is Europe warring with anyone. The war in question is unilateral by Russia, against a foreign nation.

limiting yourself to "approved" news is the easiest and quackiest(spelling error but still fits) way to respond with talking points.

-17 ( +2 / -19 )

The most important aspect of a tank battalion is the repair crew of professional technicians and steady supply of parts to deal with the strain of combat.

NATO sending a handful of different models of tanks actually complicates that drastically for the Ukrainians. Each tank requires different parts and a different array of training to service it.

Zelensky's forces won't have the capability to maintain these machines under combat stress in the field.

Therefore the separatists don't even need heavy weapons to take out the tanks, just light artillery or a basic infantry drone will disable the tank just enough that Zelensky's forces won't be able to repair.

The tank will either sit idle for capture or need to be essentially towed to Poland for service.

-14 ( +4 / -18 )

@Eastman: Well, why don't you let us know how long it will take for Russia to 'prevail' without having to resort to nuclear weapons. I don't see this ending for years.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

I’m sorry, you’re still not making any sense.

Ok. What do u want to know exact? Short question without fiddle - short answer

-11 ( +3 / -14 )

Bronco

Exactly.As from my point of view NATO will send old outlet tanks to be destroyed while they will order new from tank makers.just dirty business.as every war.who minds people.

-11 ( +7 / -18 )

There are hundreds of American tanks already in Europe.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

Another turn of the ratchet towards catastrophe. Escalation will be met in kind. Next they will be drafting our kids.

-3 ( +8 / -11 )

Bronco

The most important aspect of a tank battalion is the repair crew of professional technicians and steady supply of parts to deal with the strain of combat.

NATO sending a handful of different models of tanks actually complicates that drastically for the Ukrainians. Each tank requires different parts and a different array of training to service it.

That's why they are concentrating on Leopard 2s and why the Abrams tanks are mainly symbolic.

8 ( +13 / -5 )

theResident

I just wanted to know when UA victory will happen,since its costs a lot of money,warmongering effort from media and some governments but yes-still no victory in sight.

as I wrote many times main mistake of west is that they underestimating Russia,its power and will to fight,dont need to mention russian nuclear arsenal.in other words-west is disconnected from reality on the ground.lives in own illusions.

as we have many experts here making comments everyday and fightning hard with UA ink I want to know when finally all of you will break russian neck?

simple question need simple answer i see from none of them here published yet.

-14 ( +4 / -18 )

Eastman

I just wanted to know when UA victory will happen,

Not even the most experienced general, war strategist will ever be foolish enough to predict the timing and outcome of a war. So, I don't know why you keep asking this question. Most experts (and Putin's advisors) thought that the invasion would be over in 3 days.

since its costs a lot of money,

True.

warmongering effort from media and some governments

The only warmongering is coming from Putin.

simple question need simple answer i see from none of them here published yet.

So when do you think Putin will win in Ukraine? Please get the outcome and timing correct.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

So how many Leopards? Only 14?

-7 ( +6 / -13 )

US and EU are teasing Putin because they want the nuclear WAR

-11 ( +7 / -18 )

Ukraine will receive 60 tanks for two brigades.

They need 300.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

limiting yourself to "approved" news is the easiest and quackiest(spelling error but still fits) way to respond with talking points

To be fair, your ‘alternative’ sources led you to believe that the Russian forces on the border were not going to invade and a possible invasion was believed only by MSM sheeple.

You weren’t alone in this. Those predisposed to more conspiratorial ideas posted exactly the same thing. Almost to the letter.

Still, everyone can be misled.

What sources should we be reading to get a more accurate picture? This is fundamental to any discussion on this issue.

5 ( +9 / -4 )

Eastman - nobody can predict the future. I am still waiting for your take on Serbian President Vucic's comments that Crimea and Donbas are Ukrainian. If you want people to engage with you and humor you with their predictions of the future, then maybe you should answer questions that are asked of you as well?

5 ( +11 / -6 )

Blacklabel - 14 from Germany, and other allies are sending some as well (about 80 Leopard 2's for this initial batch)

https://www.politico.eu/article/allies-two-leopard-tank-battalions-ukraine-germany-olaf-scholz-nato-allies-volodymyr-zelenskyy-mark-rutte-spain-norway-joe-biden/

6 ( +9 / -3 )

Blacklabel

So how many Leopards? Only 14?

14 from Germany. Many more from other European nations.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

Has anyone else noticed that incomplete or misleading information is coming more from the invasion apologist types?

Not surprising in the slightest.

11 ( +16 / -5 )

With what? Stuff that will arrive in months or years? It’s just virtue signaling by the US and Europe to keep sacrificing Ukrainians daily for their proxy war.

The US has been getting their donated hardware in the hands of Ukrainian forces generally in under 90 days. The list of US equipment in Ukraine now is long. Same for equipment from other allies. The US was able to come up with a way to fire HARM anti radiation missiles from Ukrainian Migs in 45 days. In normal peacetime practice integrating a missile on a combat jet that has not carried it before takes a couple of years of testing and integration work. But it is war and it was accomplished in 45 days. It is a rough and dirty installation but it works well enough under the circumstances. Since HARM is being replaced by something better and literally tens of thousands of HARMS were built, there is no shortage of these to give Ukraine. They use them against artillery spotting radars, communications centers and some air defense radars. You wouldn't want to go up against an S-400 with HARM but against BUK or TOR-1M it is effective. Also since the Marines divested themselves of all of their armor there are excess M-1A2 Abrams available for Ukraine to train on basically immediately.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

Fighter Jets NEXT.

4 ( +9 / -5 )

Currently the Czechs and Slovaks are repairing damaged Ukrainian tanks of Russian origin. The US and Czechs are currently splitting the cost to overhaul and upgrade some 90 T-72s taken from the inventories of several eastern European armies to give to Ukraine. No they are not western tanks but they still represent considerable firepower. Those same depots could conceivably perform major service and battle damage repair on M-1s and Leopard 2s. Most tanks move to and from the battlefield on heavy equipment transport trucks, huge lowboy flatbeds. No army drives their tanks more than necessary.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

I sincerely hope that this action especially from the German Government, signifies a solidity with the Ukraine government and people that Europe with all the freedom loving nations globally standing together will never tolerate Russian Government aggression.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

Actually, the Russians seized Kiev airport with ease and held it with ease and they returned it after phase I of the operation was complete.

LMAO.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

UChosePoorly

Today 09:41 am JST

Blacklabel - 14 from Germany, and other allies are sending some as well (about 80 Leopard 2's for this initial batch)

Not sure how you came to that conclusion!

The article you linked has a very deceiving title.

Reading the article the author has taken quite a bit of artistic leeway.

The entire article is littered with

considering, weighing supplying, “willing to consider” (buying some for Ukraine but not sending theirs) , did not exclude sending some, if part of a European coalition,

So in reality only about 28 tanks have been secured even your article points that out .

Now even 80 is far far far from the 300 tanks Ukraine says it needs now not later but right now.

Is the USA going to actually supply the other over 200?

-7 ( +5 / -12 )

"......and they returned it after phase I of the operation was complete." (Bronco talking about the Kyiv airport etc).

So, that was yet another good-will gesture by RuSSia, I must assume.

Something like the Moscva missile cruiser (now a sub), Snake Island (returned to Ukraine), lots of military hardware turned over to Ukraine (rescued by Ukrainian farmers), etc.

Ukraine prevails

4 ( +10 / -6 )

The Germans underestimated the resolve and fortitude of the Russian people then and they do so again today.

who do you think was manufacturing much of the red army weapons trucks etc during WW2. yes thats right America.

Stalin just threw millions of soldiers at the Nazis during WW2, estimates over 20million died on the eastern front. do you think Putin and todays Russia will accept that today

4 ( +9 / -5 )

I just wanted to know when UA victory will happen

simple question need simple answer

Only the simple minded would think that is a simple question.

5 ( +9 / -4 )

This pledge of tanks and heavy weapons is a small step, all will require logistics and tech support, however the action in itself moves closer to actions proving louder than words.

Ukraine must repel the invader, and be seen to do so.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

AS - yes, still in the planning stage as far as I am aware. When I get more current info updating progress, I will let you know. Remember, these are just Leopard 2's being discussed.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

I am not so sure the US people are supportive of giving Ukraine “offensive” weapons. Even more so after the current corruption scandals.

if giving Ukraine offensive weapons gets on the wrong side of public opinion polling? Dems will drop it immediately to try to protect their 2024 election cycle.

-9 ( +5 / -14 )

And it is true, all of these “foreign” tanks immediately become high value targets on sight. I wouldn’t want to be in one of them.

-7 ( +6 / -13 )

UChosePoorly

Today 10:40 am JST

AS - yes, still in the planning stage as far as I am aware. When I get more current info updating progress, I will let you know. Remember, these are just Leopard 2's being discussed.

That wasn't how you put you original post.

Blacklabel - 14 from Germany, and other allies are sending some as well (about 80 Leopard 2's for this initial batch)

Clearly you wrote "initial batch" which little the title of the article you linked was misleading.

This seems to be an ongoing trend in western media.

As I pointed out previous I expect misleading news from Russia but I hold western news and governments to a higher standard something they haven't been doing as they are sounding more like Russia every day.

-3 ( +6 / -9 )

if giving Ukraine offensive weapons gets on the wrong side of public opinion polling? Dems will drop it immediately to try to protect their 2024 election cycle.

Let us know what you see in the area of public polling. Not my forte.

I do know that doing the right thing isn't always popular, but in this case, I don't see too many voices raised against it (in the States, at least, can't speak for Europe).

These are offensive weapons, but offensive weapons are what is needed for Ukraine to take its territory back and kick out the invaders.

4 ( +9 / -5 )

Ok, AS - you get the 'W' today. I retract my original verbiage and would like to amend it to the following:

Blacklabel - 14 from Germany, and other allies are PLANNING TO send some as well (about 80 Leopard 2's for this initial batch)

We good?

5 ( +9 / -4 )

@ TokyoLiving

"destruction of those tanks, especially the Abrams, to teach US a lesson, when the Abrams burn, it will cost Joe his re-election. Mark my words.."

I definitely will! As long as you mark mine!

Because Biden, if he goes for re-election, will win, RuSSian tanks have been and will be turned into scrap metal by Abrams, Leopards, etc!

Ukarine prevails!

5 ( +11 / -6 )

As I pointed out previous I expect misleading news from Russia but I hold western news and governments to a higher standard something they haven't been doing as they are sounding more like Russia every day.

If western news is biased, then where should we go for unbiased news? Honest question, I've yet to get an answer on this.

9 ( +12 / -3 )

And it is true, all of these “foreign” tanks immediately become high value targets on sight. I wouldn’t want to be in one of them.

An Abrams is one of the safer places to be in a war, but you would have had to have actually been in the military and served your country to know that I guess. Your excuses for loving and supporting Russia are tiring.

8 ( +15 / -7 )

Nearly 1 year since Russia invaded Ukraine and still hasn't won the war. Putin demands answers from his generals but gets none.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

Nobody seems to have noticed but the Italians are sending a SAMP-T battery. The longer ranged of the two missiles SAMP-T uses is comparable to SM-6 and it has a battle management system and radars in many ways comparable to AEGIS. This is huge in terms of Ukraine's air defenses, a true long range area defense system.

5 ( +11 / -6 )

We good?

My problem wasn't with you.

You only repeated what the headline said and the well article tried pushing.

My problem is with the western media.

I want better than propaganda from Ukraine and propaganda from Russia.

I would like actual facts.

As far as I can tell, according to most military sites ( places that are neutral just report military engagements and movements) it seems clear Russia has made considerable advances.

They are encircling Bakhmut and on the offensive moving fast in the Zaporizhzhia region the West acts like nothing is happening just reluctantly updates their territory held maps and go on talking about Ukrainian victory as if that sudden red increasing was always there!

If we are going to be asked to send billions to help then give us the real facts not fantasy.

-3 ( +6 / -9 )

My problem is with the western media.

Then where do you get your news? Where should we?

1 ( +7 / -6 )

It will take almost a year of training for a crew to use a M1 Abrams tank.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

If Russia wins this thing, just imagine how much more dangerous it’s going to become.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

AS - ok, glad we are good! I for one, don't actually care too much what the Western MSM says and I agree with you that our elected officials should be as forthcoming as possible to the extent allowed during a war. If and when Ukraine is rapidly advancing toward the Russian borders with the Russians clearly on the way home, then I would say at that point, we can slow our assistance down, but not until then. Could you imagine how screwed Ukraine would be if nobody were helping them? I shudder to think.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Could you imagine how screwed Ukraine would be if nobody were helping them? I shudder to think.

Yes, and that's really the point. Rather than come right out and say they don't care if Russian takes over Ukraine, they'll make up excuses for why they shouldn't be helped, or assistance should be curtailed. But the net effect, they hope, is all the same.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

Loose lips sink ships.

NATO is publicly announcing the number, make, model, country of origin, training schedule and delivery date of the these tanks.

That information is extremely valuable to the Russians and they can use that knowledge to their advantage.

Have these military planning discussions in front of tv cameras puts Ukrainian soldiers lives at risk.

If NATO truly wanted to help the Ukrainians they would simply announce that all weapon deliveries are confidential information.

We may send 0 tanks or 1000,

but we will never divulge that to protect the troops.

-8 ( +2 / -10 )

Nobody seems to have noticed but the Italians are sending a SAMP-T battery

Because Only Ukrainian news is reporting it and with false information.

France and Italy came to an agreement but no date, delivery again postponed because Italy only has 6 SAMP-T 1 training 5 deployed and the military is unwilling to give them up France will not send its own in service.

So saying they are sending and finding some to send is a different story.

At best they will send 1 possibly 2.

Where the misleading news comes from in this.

“In cooperation with France, we are finalizing the shipment of SAMP/T, and in addition, other actions are planned that we do not disclose,” the Minister said.

Followed by

SAMP-T are part of six packages being prepared.

So people take the 6 packages as including 6 SAMP-T!

Nope 6 different packages including humanitarian aid and not 6 1SAMP-T

Ukraine would need a hundred SAMP-T along with a hundred HIMARS as Patriots to cover the needed territory

One SAMP-T can cover 40km welcome to reality

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

Cards fan - I hear ya. These same folks would have been the ones pressuring the US to surrender to Japan after we and the Commonwealth and Allies had gotten our butts kicked all over the Philippines and South East Asia in 1941/42. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but we would have been foolish to listen to them then.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Appreciate your concern for the troops, Bronco.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

they would simply announce that all weapon deliveries are confidential information.

But then you don’t get any credit or virtuous praise.

-9 ( +3 / -12 )

UChosePoorly

Today 11:46 am JST

Cards fan - I hear ya. These same folks would have been the ones pressuring the US to surrender to Japan after we and the Commonwealth and Allies had gotten our butts kicked all over the Philippines and South East Asia in 1941/42. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but we would have been foolish to listen to them then

More likely the ones saying not to get involved in Vietnam.

As for the Philippines, the USA massacred over one million in order to take it in the first place, then held it until Japan then took it over again and then handing it over to a dictator.

The USA likes pro USA dictators Pinochet, Batista, Marcos, the Shah of Iran, etc... Perhaps the USA isn't the best place to talk about freedom nor is the UK after all it's colonial actions.

-10 ( +3 / -13 )

It will take almost a year of training for a crew to use a M1 Abrams tank.

No. From the US Army website:

"MOS Army M1 Armor Crewman combine Basic Combat Training with One Station Unit Training (OSUT).

The two types of training are combined and require 15 weeks of your time."

https://www.operationmilitarykids.org/army-m1-armor-crewman-mos-19k/

5 ( +8 / -3 )

France and Italy came to an agreement but no date, delivery again postponed because Italy only has 6 SAMP-T 1 training 5 deployed and the military is unwilling to give them up France will not send its own in service.

According to Defense News today, well yesterday in Japan, Italy will send one of their active SAMP-T batteries to Ukraine knowing they are to receive a sixth battery this year, bring the total number of deployed units in Italy back up to five.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

Desert Tortoise

Today 12:03 pm JST

France and Italy came to an agreement but no date, delivery again postponed because Italy only has 6 SAMP-T 1 training 5 deployed and the military is unwilling to give them up France will not send its own in service.

> According to Defense News today, well yesterday in Japan, Italy will send one of their active SAMP-T batteries to Ukraine knowing they are to receive a sixth battery this year, bring the total number of deployed units in Italy back up to five.

As I said 1 (one) SAMP-T.

40km range, now that will be a big difference.

This is what I mean by not reality.

One SAMP-T not a hundred and Ukraine would need a hundred or more.

So now they can protect the presidential residence or one power station.

-10 ( +2 / -12 )

So people take the 6 packages as including 6 SAMP-T!

Nope 6 different packages including humanitarian aid and not 6 1SAMP-

The weapons package from Italy with the SAMP-T battery will be the sixth military aid package Italy has sent to Ukraine. Read the final paragraph carefully. After some indecision the Italians decided to send SAMP-T out of their active inventory.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/01/23/italy-confirms-samp-t-missile-defense-donation-to-ukraine/

7 ( +10 / -3 )

One SAMP-T can cover 40km welcome to reality

That depends on which missile is employed. Aster 30 has a published range in excess of 120 km and Aster 30 NT has a range in excess of 150 km.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

Desert Tortoise

Today 12:10 pm JST

Again what is your point?

You made a big deal about SAMP-T

The reality is only one and that one covers 40 km range.

Is this one going to be a game changer as Ukraine is losing more territory again?

Again reality check one I repeat one SAMP-T will do nothing but make good propaganda news.

-9 ( +4 / -13 )

Ukraine will soon become a tank graveyard for all sides

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

This is just the first transfer of western MBT's but it will not be the last. Many more will be transferred before this war is won by Ukraine.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

The western MBTs are going to cut through the Russian garbage like a hit knife through butter.

Those Russo-sobs are going to rue the day they thought they were going to roll over Ukraine and get away with it.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

I'm not keeping track of this so much, but has Ukraine asked for the F-35 yet?

-9 ( +1 / -10 )

Eastman,

Hitler and Napoleon were some crazy morons who wanted to conquer the whole RuSSain Empire!

Ukraine on the other side wants to gain freedom and liberty, including all occupied Ukrainian areas!

Concerning the tanks, let me quote this:

"In the battle of 73 Easting the Iraqis lost:

160 tanks

180 personnel carriers

12 artillery pieces

80 wheeled vehicles

At the cost of one Bradley to enemy fire. The Iraqis were supplied by the Soviets."

Facts that can't be denied! Now, instead of Iraqis I'd say RuSSians, the only minor change!

Ukraine prevails!

1 ( +8 / -7 )

Russian tanks are antiques ask saving.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

ok1517

possibly better to stop watch hollywood "US army hero" movies?

you have no idea about russian real firepower.but yes-soon you may know.

-9 ( +3 / -12 )

you have no idea about russian real firepower.

Neither, it would seem, do the Russians.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

The USA likes pro USA dictators Pinochet, Batista, Marcos, the Shah of Iran, etc... Perhaps the USA isn't the best place to talk about freedom nor is the UK after all it's colonial actions.

And it seems you like anti-American ones. I on the other hand just don't like any dictators, and think the world will be a better place without dictators like Putin.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

AS - I think the US should not have gotten involved in Vietnam, just like you. I also feel that Russia should not involve itself in Ukraine. I feel like these two viewpoints are logically consistent.

I would rather the US have entered WWII a bit earlier, unlike some folks here who think we shouldn't have gotten involved at all ;)

Finally, I am not arguing my points as a representative of the US government here, so I think I have just as much right to speak out on wars of aggression and conquest as much as anyone here. I am opposed to imperialism and colonialism in all its forms.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

Eastman

Whether an expert or not, this war could continue for years.

It is clear historically that to invade a country, any country has grave consequences.

For Russia, I really cannot envisage whilst Putin government remains in office any change, in fact it is becoming clear that the global community is finally accepting the only way to bring this war to and end is to fully support Ukraine.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

wallace

Today 12:41 pm JST

Russian tanks are antiques ask saving.

And Ukrainian victories are paintings by W/Z done in minus 20C in Nagano

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

Nemo

Today 12:38 pm JST

The western MBTs are going to cut through the Russian garbage like a hit knife through butter.

> Those Russo-sobs are going to rue the day they thought they were going to roll over Ukraine and get away with it.

If that were true why has the west tried to get other countries like Turkey give S-400 missile systems?

Ukraine never had them but they are better more rugged than the western systems.

Guess why Turkey decided to buy them and not NATO stuff.

-8 ( +5 / -13 )

Are there really ever been any victories in war?

Only epitaphs to commemorate the sacrifices.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Tank you very much !

Putin will resort to more dastardly tactics.

Nobody's winning this ridiculous war !

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

Again what is your point?

You made a big deal about SAMP-T

The reality is only one and that one covers 40 km range.

The big deal is this is a true high volume air defense system like AEGIs, not the point defense weapons sent to Ukraine so far. It's radars and battle management system are designed to handle hundreds of targets simultaneously to defeat high volume attacks. The radars can be used to cue other missile system. SAMP-T fires several versions of the Aster missile with ranges out to 150 km. Something like SAMP-T takes a lot of pressure off what Ukraine has now as it can engage targets much farther out than the short range point defense systems the west has sent so far, leaving fewer missiles for the shorter ranged point defense missiles to deal with.

6 ( +10 / -4 )

Ukraine never had them but they are better more rugged than the western systems.

In real life and not the fevered dreams of fanbois S-400 systems that Russians have on the Ukraine border are letting an awful lot of those Turkish drones and old TU-143 drones converted to cruise missiles get past them.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

The western MBTs are going to cut through the Russian garbage like a hit knife through butter.

Those Russo-sobs are going to rue the day they thought they were going to roll over Ukraine and get away with it.

Let's see if your sensational fantasy predictions materialize.

Russia does have some tough high tech weapons they haven't brought to the party yet.

-5 ( +7 / -12 )

I would rather the US have entered WWII a bit earlier, unlike some folks here who think we shouldn't have gotten involved at all ;)

FDR would have probably entered the war earlier but the US military was in no way prepared to go to war until late 1941 and even then barely so, and there were enough Republicans in the US Congress and other public figures like Father Joe Coughlin and Charles Lindberg who were sympathetic to the Nazis to make entering the war against them impossible.

What is true is that in early November 1941 USS Hornet and USS Enterprise left Pearl Harbor with Marine aircraft to reinforce Wake Island. This was one month before the Japanese attack. The day after leaving port Admiral Halsey, the task force commander, issued a single page op-order that included the command to sink any Japanese ships encountered during the mission. This created controversy in every wardroom (where officers eat their meals) in the task force. Officers objected because at that point the US and Japan were not at war and some questioned the legality of the order. In any event, not Japanese ships were encountered, Hornet and Enterprise arrived on the evening of December 7th 1941 at which point the discussion was moot.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

By the time the tanks are ready and the Ukrainian soldiers sufficiently trained to use them, the war will likely be over. Maybe Poland will be able to hold onto the supplied tanks...

-7 ( +5 / -12 )

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