Ukraine pushes for Western fighter jets after tank deals

@bronco Immediately after the tank deal was announced the narrative switched to fighter jets.

The above typical anti-west narrative ignores the reality that Russia invaded Ukraine, started a brutal war that has lasted nearly one year, and ignores the reality that were Putin to call his armies back into actual Russian territory and pull them out of Ukrainian territory there would be little need for the war to continue. Putin's neighboring nations and also those that were once under the boots and guns of the USSR seem to be well aware of what is at stake. And that Putin and the Kremlin can not be trusted. Europeans seem to have learned that despots like Putin and totalitarian regimes like Russia cannot be appeased.

If a peace deal is negotiated and Putin is allowed to keep the regions stolen from Ukraine, he’ll think he’s won and will try again. Putin won’t stop at Ukraine. Give Zelenskyy what he needs.

Yes.

That’s a good thing, isn’t it?

Only if it stopoed the corruption. Did it?

Early days. I don’t think corruption can ever be fully rooted out. As you said, they’ve only just been fired.

Firing people for corruption is a good thing, isn’t it?

Never ending demands for money and free stuff.

You'd almost think their country had been invaded by a superpower and they needed money for defense or something.

This expectation has been set now. No going back thanks to the mismanagement of the previous requests

Why not? Is that what they're telling you on OANN?

Zelensky will be asking for tactical nukes, he'll start with just one.

I asked you 3 questions about this yesterday. Neither of which you answered.

When will he ask for nukes?

Do you know anything at all about Ukraine’s denuclearization?

Bonus question. How do you know he doesn’t already have one?

They just fired several officials for corruption didn't they?

Yes.

That’s a good thing, isn’t it?

Have not enough people got killed already?

I don't know how some people can sleep with their heads full of conspiracies.

Because this article says that is their expectation.

No, it doesn't state that.

"Storm, corruption is Ukraine top priority . . . "

Russia has invaded Ukraine and tens of thousands have died as a result on both sides. It sure doesn't look like corruption is Ukraine's biggest problem.

The point missed in all this is:

Tanks move into a very different tactical situation that requires air support. The Leopard and Abrams tanks require a specifically trained crew. You do not train crew for these tanks in a few months. You do train crew to maintain these tanks in a few moonths. One of the tactical advantages of these tanks is coordinating with air support. This means it will be German and US crews fighting Russia in Ukraine along with US pilots.

Eh?

Where did you get this from?

Immediately after the tank deal was announced the narrative switched to fighter jets.

They might already have them.

Without evidence, this "sense" is nonsense.

I sense a lot of European tax-payers' money drifting to Monaco, Florida and offshore bank accounts. This, while the average European faces high prices for food and fuel and everything else.

Latin America is not giving any weapons because they know what's going on and want no part in this.

Have not enough people got killed already?

Yes, Russia should stop this war.

If Russia stops fighting, there is no more war.

If Ukraine stops fighting, there is no more Ukraine.

(and ceased hostilities, of course)

Only if it stopoed the corruption. Did it?

So if they couldn't elimimate 100% of corruption, they should have left the corrupt people in place?

Do you actually think anyone intelligent would agree?

The war would end. What do you think will happen if Russia is pushed back to their 2013 borders?

My thinking is similar to yours. I am just curious what the Russian-supporting (or neutral!) side thinks would be so bad that this is immediately written off as an option.

lots of people need lots of things. Why does he and only he get it for free and with zero limitations?

The answer is obvious. Stopping Russia in Ukraine is bargain basement compared to fighting Russia in the territory of NATO members. You know full well what the ideology of Russkiy Mir is. If the Russians conquer Ukraine, they will attack the three Baltic states, all of which are NATO members and then you have what nobody wants, a direct NATO-Russia war that escalates to a nuclear confrontation. All this carping about how much the US is giving Ukraine is just a smokescreen by people infatuated by the idea of a strongman government that enforces a white christian identity and who suppresses minorities including and especially LGBTQ, rigidly controls the press (unless they are upset with the "liberal" social media suppressing conservative speech). Be honest for once. You admire Vladimir Putin more than you like the US. That is the bottom line. You want the Russians to win.

lots of people need lots of things. Why does he and only he get it for free

He and only he gets things for free? This is laughably absurd. Do you think Zelensky is singlehandedly using the many billions of dollars worth of weapons?

and with zero limitations?

You mean like not getting the latest version of the Abrams or not getting the F-16s they've requested? That sounds like a limitation to me, as does the limitations on the types of missile systems were sending, but don't let in your way.

This means it will be German and US crews fighting Russia in Ukraine along with US pilots.

That's quite the theory you have on this conspiracy. Very salacious.

Putin's planning for his Ukraine invasion began three years ago while Trump was in office. Trump got the memo but failed to tell the nation even when he was digging Ukraine for dirt on Biden.

Interestingly enough, Erdogan’s stubbornness may prove useful. Any NATO decision to send fighter jets would near or total unanimity.

As Sweden is not currently a member, it could say “We’re not in NATO yet. (Waves to Turkey with just 1 finger) We don’t need your permission.”

And nod-nod, wink-wink, Ukraine has a new interoperable Air Force made up of 4th Gen fighters designed for area air defense!

Problem solved!

Have not enough people got killed already?

The Russians could p-off to their side of the border.

I dare say that would tamp the killing down to nearly nothing.

Question for those who support the Russian side - what do you think would happen if Russia retreated back to their 2013 borders?

Question for those who support the Russian side - what do you think would happen if Russia retreated back to their 2013 borders?

The war would end. What do you think will happen if Russia is pushed back to their 2013 borders?

Ian - what actions would you like to see from Ukraine to help assure you that it is doing what it can to fight corruption?

We can't abandon the Ukrainian people.

Ukraine had nuclear weapons but surrendered them with a treaty signed by Russia in return it would not attack it.

Hmmm, why do you think? Unlike others, I don't think it's out of our governments' good will. It's for our (US/NATO's) own national security.

lots of people need lots of things. Why does he and only he get it for free and with zero limitations?

Hmmm, why do you think? Unlike others, I don't think it's out of our governments' good will. It's for our (US/NATO's) own national security.

I agree with this. The reason so many Americans, Europeans, and others are on board with helping Ukraine defend herself is that it is also the right thing to do. The fact that it aligns with our security interests is primarily why the democracies are getting involved, but if it were not for the support of the populations, our governments would be even more hamstrung than they currently are.

If you prefer to think about it primarily in self-interested and utilitarian terms, it is a lot cheaper to stop Russia now and over there than it would be to try and stop an even more emboldened Russia if they conquer Ukraine. IOW, it would have been cheapest to stop Russia's expansionism in 2014, now we are going to pay a little more, and if we kick the can down the road, it will be even more expensive then. Even a budget hawk such as Blacklabel should be able to appreciate this kind of calculation.

If it’s going to help Ukraine defend itself in this fight for its life, why the hell not?!

I guess if the far-right American extremists think that Ukraine should be cut off, they could try winning elections to stop the flow.

I wonder if they've considered that move? I know they tried to steal the election, but one has to wonder if they ever considered maybe putting in policies that would get the people to elect them so that they could cut off this spending.

what other leader of what other country is getting free weapons

What other country is being invaded by a superpower.

billions in cash?

weapons, not cash.

Oh they will get it, they expect so. didnt you read the article?

Good! I'm glad they're going to have them to defend their homes. You dont want them to defend their homes?

No doesnt mean no at all because they have Biden under control.

Lol nope, not this old chestnut again.

US won't be providing F-16s at this stage; obviously it was a different situation 9 years ago.

How many F-16s did the US provide 9 years ago?

All you crazy people out there, you have to immediately stop that war

There is only one person, or one group of people who can stop this war. Putin is the one person, or the Russian people are the group of people. Either of them can end this war. No one else can.

If you are pro war... send your son, Ukraine is accepting volunteers.

If we "sent" our sons, they wouldn't be there voluntarily, would they.

Why does he and only he get it for free and with zero limitations?

I wouldn't say it is for free. They are paying with their blood and treasure, and as you can see, there are plenty of limitations around what is being given to them.

I don't envy Ukraine and I wouldn't want to switch places with them. They haven't won the lottery.

So now it's "pushing for fighter jets". Ukraine is fortunate to have a leader who is no clown. Zelenskyy is smart and a fast learner: the war has given him an opportunity to meet many people from around the world and hone his English skills making "pushing the envelope" his motto. We should wish him luck! You never know, with a more aggressive Russian winter campaign Putin may help to make his shopping list of weaponry more than a dream.

Their corrupt leaders have. by agreeing to host the proxy war for money.

Blacklabel - that's pretty conspiratorial thinking if that is what you believe happened. Where are you getting these kinds of thoughts from? It sounds like something Russia would want us to believe so that support for Ukraine dries up. Most of us aren't falling for it.

they will get it, they expect so. didnt you read the article? No doesnt mean no at all because they have Biden under control.

So do you think America should just leave Ukraine to the wolves?

And cash, you haven’t heard about that?

I still don't care. I hope we continue to support Ukraine in every way we can until the invaders have either been captured, killed, or fled back to Russia, and it's pretty sad that certain people here are more concerned with money than the loss of lives and human suffering in Ukraine.

180,000 Ruskie troops have been killed for Putin's hell.

Give Ukraine jets. Trench warfare is horrendous. They need the means to kill every Russian soldier who has crossed into Ukraine, without needing to fight in the trenches.

Zelensky will be asking for tactical nukes

He can ask.

Zelensky needs F16s to defend the free world!!

To defend his country.

It seems you don’t like the idea of countries defending themselves from invasion.

That’s how it comes across.

I wonder if the Swedes have any of their old Viggens left over that could be refurbished and given to Ukraine?

Zelensky will be asking for tactical nukes, he'll start with just one.

The ability to deliver one reliably would end this invasion in a heartbeat.

I bet Ukraine seriously regrets giving up what was at the time the world’s 3rd largest nuclear arsenal for the useless security “guarantees” that the Russians offered.

It won’t happen but that the Russians and their fan-bois are so freaked about it shows what they are scared of.

Hokkaido has always been Russian, maybe we should just let them vote on it?

Ukraine is in a life or death battle with Russia. Give President Zelenskyy whatever he asks for/demands.

Blacklabel - who else is being invaded by a nuclear power in a war of aggression and conquest? I would say that Ukraine's needs right now supersede my family's and mine. We will be fine. Ukraine will be even worse off (and so will all of us) if we allow Russia to swallow them up.

The Ukrainian male population capable of carrying weapons is almost exhausted

Maybe, but now they can drive in tanks, and maybe soon, fly in jets. Takes less energy to kill more enemies.

And you will see the same people on this site willing to cede Hokkaido to Russia for peace in their time.

But eighty years ago Japan was bad!!!!!!

Conversely, if Ukraine cannot live within its borders free of intimidation, membership in a collective self-defense organization would be as good as a nuke, especially if 3 of the members were nuclear powers….

That’ll make Poo-tin “soil” himself.

The only way to end this insane aggressor's war (i.e. PUTAin) is by providing Ukrraine with all necessary military hardware needed to send those RuSSian marauders back to where they came from. This should include figher jets (whether F-16s or other planes like SUs or MIGs). Air superiority is still important!

Ukraine prevails!

Training on F-16 takes too long and logistically too difficult. Better solution is to sell/give F-16 to countries that can ex-Soviet/Russian planes to Ukraine. And give them a ton of anti-aircraft missiles to shoot down Russian planes.

Give them the jets…; do we want Ukraine to win this war or not?

..

“ The West also has ruled out providing Kyiv with long-range missiles able to hit Russian territory, citing potential escalation.

After months of haggling, Western allies agreed last week to send the tanks, despite the hesitation and caution of some NATO members.

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said Monday there are “no taboos” in efforts to help Ukraine but added that jets “would be a very big next step.” “

This cautiousness is understandable… (but Russia can’t get away with this… they’ve murdered and tortured thousands of innocent men, women and children…)

..

“ Croatia President Zoran Milanovic, meanwhile, criticized Western nations for supplying Ukraine with tanks and other weapons, arguing those deliveries will only prolong the war. “

Croatian idiot… So we should just tell the Ukrainians to surrender(?); they do not want to surrender, so that means we’d just leave them to die(?) (and Russia would teach the world (that includes China) an horrible lesson…)

The point missed in all this is:

Tanks move into a very different tactical situation that requires air support. The Leopard and Abrams tanks require a specifically trained crew. You do not train crew for these tanks in a few months. You do train crew to maintain these tanks in a few moonths. One of the tactical advantages of these tanks is coordinating with air support. This means it will be German and US crews fighting Russia in Ukraine along with US pilots.

This moves the US and Germany into a hot war. Ready? Here it comes.

Yes, fighter jets too, and they also want ammunition logistics, one or few submarines and so on. The method seems to be demanding everything to get a little something. If it works or not, that’s irrelevant.

Of course - we're giving the Ukrainians what they need to defend themselves. They can try out various weapons and go with whichever is the most effective.

Cash:

https://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/nov-22-2022-united-states-contributes-45-billion-support-government-ukraine

US won't be providing F-16s at this stage; obviously it was a different situation 9 years ago.

Biden said no, but he may change his mind.

Another work around would be the Swedish Saab JAS Gripen. It’s cheaper, costs less to fly, is highly maneuverable and is NATO interoperable.

Yes, fighter jets too, and they also want ammunition logistics, one or few submarines and so on. The method seems to be demanding everything to get a little something. If it works or not, that’s irrelevant. The real problem is, all involved , the West, the first world, are on stake or at least losing economic wealth and stability too. The Ukraine, Russia of course fully, the rest of Europe significantly and of course in smaller dimension the US or Japanese part-time worker when daily looking into the wallet, too. All you crazy people out there, you have to immediately stop that war which already now will also demand extreme rebuilding costs and supporting migrants everywhere. What do you think or expect who will take over if you continue and won’t stop trying to clash each other to real or economical death, huh? Anyone now involved as a winner? No, someone else will, and that’s the real end of civilization and development. Can’t you see what’s on the horizon, rising and incoming and in a few cases already knocking on the doors?

They just fired several officials for corruption didn't they?

weapons, not cash.

And cash, you haven’t heard about that?

Biden said no

Storm, corruption is Ukraine top priority,they still the second most corrupt country in Europe,only heating out Russian

Corrupt people usually have bad outcomes on a good day, even worse while at war,maybe change leadership that not corrupt

All types of help first passed through the ‘no’ stage," he said. "Which only means ‘no’ at today’s given moment. The second stage is, ‘Let’s talk and study technical possibilities.’ The third stage is, ‘Let’s get your personnel trained.’ And the fourth stage is the transfer (of equipment).”

This expectation has been set now. No going back thanks to the mismanagement of the previous requests and the inability to clearly say NO for some reason.

I sense a lot of European tax-payers' money drifting to Monaco, Florida and offshore bank accounts. This, while the average European faces high prices for food and fuel and everything else.

Latin America is not giving any weapons because they know what's going on and want no part in this.

Ukraine was abandoned almost a decade ago.

Time to stop the fighting and cut their losses.

they should have left the corrupt people in place?

Only idiots would think the most corrupt aren't still in place

You'd almost think their country had been invaded by a superpower and they needed money for defense or something.

You would almost think they aren’t corrupt. Well except all the government official who just resigned for corruption.

lots of people need lots of things. Why does he and only he get it for free and with zero limitations?

DT,l am an extreme liberal,that believe in Liberty Equality and Justice for All, something Ukrainain do not stand for

He and only he gets things for free? This is laughably absurd. Do you think Zelensky is singlehandedly using the many billions of dollars worth of weapons?

what other leader of what other country is getting free weapons and billions in cash?

Oh they will get it, they expect so. didnt you read the article? No doesnt mean no at all because they have Biden under control.

On Tuesday, Reznikov was asked if Biden’s ‘’no” to F-16s was the final word.

“All types of help first passed through the ‘no’ stage," he said. "Which only means ‘no’ at today’s given moment. The second stage is, ‘Let’s talk and study technical possibilities.’ The third stage is, ‘Let’s get your personnel trained.’ And the fourth stage is the transfer (of equipment).”

>

They should send more weapons to at least slow down the attrition otherwise they might need to send warm bodies later also

That's your idea lol

Firing people for corruption is a good thing, isn’t it?

Only if not the more corrupt did the firing.

Did it stop the corruption?

They aren't supposed to win but remain in a state of permanent war to bolster a new cold war divide and justify a high inflation, high energy cost economy, placing the blame on Moscow. Plus those planes are very expensive. Ukraine should not be so dependent upon the West, who have their own agenda. Send insurgents to Russia. Target Putin and Russian MPs - those responsible for the invasion, and Russia's energy stores.

Never ending demands for money and free stuff.

Yes.

That’s a good thing, isn’t it?

Only if it stopoed the corruption. Did it?

Jimizo

Today 09:17 am JST

They just fired several officials for corruption didn't they?

> Yes.

> That’s a good thing, isn’t it?

Isn't it great timing and so good only "deputies" and not the big guys.

Just in time to get Abrams approved.

So Republicans say the corruption no tanks suddenly "oohh we found corrupt lower guys now give tanks"

How convenient.

That's your way, saying that someone is saying/thinking something and then attacking it

And to think all this is caused by NATO expanding eastward. This war could have been avoided and NOW in todays JapanToday we see......The main headline......

NATO chief wants stronger ties with Japan to defend democracy

Say zelensky is clean, easy