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Afghan cleric defends contentious marriage law

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"It is essential for the woman to submit to the man's sexual desire"

"For all these expenses, can't we at least give the right to a husband to demand sex from his wife after four nights?"

This would be laughable if if weren't so seriously deranged.

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sarge: Agreed. It's sick, and it's troublesome that not much can be done about it. They are regressing into the way things were until the Taliban, this time under the guise of democracy and freedom.

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"Afghanistan is an Islamic state and its constitution defers to the Koran as the ultimate authority"

This is ultimate stupidity.

Smith - Over our dead bodies they are going to regress into the way things were under the Taliban.

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This is an interesting dilemma that raises some very pertinant questions.

Sure, in the eyes of most of us on JT, this contentious marriage law that effectively legalizes maritial rape IS bad, there's no doubt about that.

BUT, what rights do any of us have to barge in there and say "Oi! This law is wrong! Change it!!"

We might want to do that, but doing so opens us up to the same charge - they may then barge into our countries and say "Close down all your brothels, girly bars and girly magazine puplishers - they dehumanize women!"

What are you/we going to say to that???

The core problem in my view is that every country has its faults, it's just that some countries have more faults in the eyes of outsiders than others.

Another problem as I see it is that developed cultures, especially many Western countries, are moving away from religion towards a 'Me First, Anything Goes' mentality.

I personally think this drift is going to cause more social unrest because I think we as a species NEED a fixed set of rules (for example, Christ's Commandments in the New Testament) to keep us all in line.

The alternative to a fixed set of rules is an environment where anything goes - which is a recipe for ultimate chaos.

A prime example of a rule we all need is 'Thou shall not kill' (this is in all the major religions.)

This rule is great, because it is very easy to understand and there are no gray areas in it. It's just 'Don't Kill.' Full Stop.

We get into trouble when we start breaking rules like this and interpreting them to suit our own agendas, which is once again why I think we all need a fixed set of globally applicable rules to live by.

Which all religions have had from the get go.

Problem there is that all religions have different rules.......

Any thoughts?

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Well Sushi I think people are naturally going to hear about items like this and comment. You've made comments about countries that you're not from, so asking people what right they have to comment about this one specific law in one specific country is a bit puzzling.

You're right when you say that each country has their own laws that would be "unacceptable" in other countries. Sometimes we can write it off to cultural differences and leave it at that, but sometimes I think it goes beyond that. Laws like this remove choice and free will for a certain set of people. That's different than brothels or pornography; telling a woman that she must have sex is akin to sexual slavery. Some cultural differences will always exist but in some cases it doesn't matter where you're from, concepts such as slavery shouldn't be allowed anywhere on earth.

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they may then barge into our countries and say "Close down all your brothels, girly bars and girly magazine puplishers - they dehumanize women!"

Sushi, they are free to comment. I will disagree with them, but they are free to comment. How bitterly I disagree with them will be in direct relation to hardness of their heads. But rest assured I will not start out by me telling them to mind their own business. That will only come as they time and time again fail to understand or accept the reasoning they are given and the details of the situation that they do not even understand.

I personally think this drift is going to cause more social unrest because I think we as a species NEED a fixed set of rules

I think the rules are important for the unenlightened. And surely the ME FIRST mentality is woefully unenlightened and I agree it will cause a lot of problems. When one is more enlightened, rules actually become a hindrance to do the right thing, as no rule is perfect.

In this topic there is a dilemma that no single law will ever properly solve. A man is supposed to get sex from his wife and his wife alone. So what do you do if the wife does not cooperate? I earlier suggested divorce, but in Afghan society where does that leave a woman? In order to implement that idea, a complete rehaul of Afghan society might be necessary. So what is the alternative? Expect the man to go without? Yeah, good luck with that one. Somebody is going to get raped in that situation. I think its a good bet that the woman did not get to choose her husband, and they sure did not date first so the man could get an idea of if she was cooperative in the bedroom. And if she isn't, then you have a pretty big problem on your hands. It seems to me that making sex an absolute duty of the wife is the only quick fix instantly available, but I do not like it at all. But I like the idea of having to completely change Afghan society even less. And I like the idea of locking up all the hoardes of men who WILL rape their wives anyway EVEN less than that.

So, something that we need to be mindful of (and you pointed this out) is that we ARE outsiders, and I am sure we do not even know the half of it. So how do we conceive of an alternative? If you are going to be against something, then you better have an alternative. If you don't have one, then you are just farting in the wind. Far too many of us do not have the humility to see that.

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I agree with Superlib. This is not a cultural difference issue....it's a step back towards the Taliban's dark ages.

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We've discussed laws in other countries and I've consistantly said it's none of our business. We have an opinion, that's all it is. We have no right to take any action where this matter comes to a law of Afghanistan.

You can take out an article in the paper, they can print in the paper the feelings of Americans and broadcast it from the clouds. But we have no right to interfere with the laws of another country. < :-)

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"But we have no right to interfere with the laws of another country"

Since we're respnsible for helping create this regime, and we're still propping it up, I say common sense says we should be up in arms about this.

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We went into Afghanistan to fight the Taliban, not to conquor and rule. That being said, they are still a sovern nation and we aren't supposed to be the occupiers.

Get the job done and bring these troops home. < :-)

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"But we have no right to interfere with the laws of another country"

If I may say:the International communities are asked to interfere when there is something oppressing the HUMAN Rights anywhere in the world since people(HUMANs) share are the same but culture and religions are different, but when other countries interfere that should be with knowledge and more understanding of the issues. I see that Arabs are the most to interfere in Afghan issues since the language is different Afghan Muslims do not understand much about the Radicals and basics of Islam, they take only shells and leave the core, by any point of view(any religion, any culture) no one would agree a law to ra***pe one`s wife or to feel it is being done to any woman, unless the law is beind agreed for personal interests.

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Madverts: So I take it your defending the Afghan slave/rape law?

Of course you do, despite the fact that I have clearly indicated that I can't see a viable alternative but that I do not like this law in any case. Far simpler to accuse me of defending it, and far easier to attack me from that angle. Never mind all those inconvenient nuances.

I think the only the option I left out is to not have this law while doing nothing about the current one, as in not troubling anyone about raping their own wife despite a law against it. And that is just the dishonest underhanded way of having this same law, and is precisely what will happen without it as I see no other viable alternative that Afghans will accept. But nobody seems to like honesty or the truth anymore. Far more comfortable to live in little dreamworlds of perfection completely detatched from everyday reality.

At a time when the country needs its men so badly (remember the Taliban?), I think it is quite irresponsible to even think of locking men up for raping their own wives or GULP stoning them to death for taking the recourse of adultery. There are more important things to deal with right now (Taliban).

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Pretty safe to say that if it means Bush's intentions in Afghanistan do look good and policy appears even marginally successful the Left has always been ready and more than willing to do whatever it takes to defend barbarism and ultra fundamentalist, medieval religiosity.

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The defense of legal rape by more than a few on here is a bit surprising....

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teleprompter - "Pretty safe to say that if it means Bush's intentions in Afghanistan ....to defend barbarism and ultra fundamentalist, medieval religiosity."

I think you lost what little credibility you never had with that post.

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sarge: "Smith - Over our dead bodies they are going to regress into the way things were under the Taliban."

You really ought to have left it alone after your first comment. You tend to come up with these very bizarre statements/threats like I've quoted, and make yourself look silly. You see, things ARE regressing over your 'dead bodies', as the death toll continues to mount and things continue to go backwards. If you contend they are a democratic nation and they pull things like with this law, and even worse, then there's nothing you can do about it. This kind of law is the exact regression many have pointed to as an indication that things really aren't much better, despite the bleating by a few on here that it is.

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Right on Smith. Gradually through education and information sharing, we can change a culture/religion/society. Those who try to force it have ulterior motives.

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Den Den - "Those who try to force it have ulterior motives."

Such as certain U.S. conservatives who come on this board and tell us how much they 'care' about the wellbeing of people in Iraq and Afghanistan right after they have supported the invasion of these countries.....

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that things really aren't much better

You obviously don't believe that.

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