NATO allies pledge more arms for Ukraine; Germany holds out on tanks

Germany has only confirmed to Europe and the world it is not ready to be a leader, it remains a follower. The UK has lead by sending Challenger II tanks. Poland and Finland are ready to send leopard II's but need German approval which will not come unless the US sends Abrams. In that case the US should send 14 Abrams M1 for limited use in Kyiv only, allowing Germany to honor its commitment to then send Leopard II's.

If you try to leave us we’ll nuke you!

This is nothing more than the words of an abusive partner when facing a breakup it cannot bear for reasons of pride, on a national level.

The Russians are the abusive BF threatening Armageddon if Ukraine wins.

UKRAINE is the long suffering gf who has finally had enough of the abuser’s domination.

NATO is the GF’s friend who the BF hates but is too big a coward to fight.

Little does the BF know it but NATO is going to give the GF the defensive equivalent of a shot gun.

The democratic free world, with all its faults, must back the Government and people of Ukraine, no matter what the cost and rebuild the country.

While Russia has a big army it sounds like they have about 100,000 less men now. Fear of Russia has to be minimal at this point.

Their tactics, planes, armor, helicopters, command, supplies are all inferior or incompetent. If there were a war it would be ugly for sure but it appears all they are capable of doing is shelling the enemy into the ground bunkers and killing civilians.

If President Vladimir Putin dictatorship regime were to successfully overrun Ukraine, the consequences for the rule of law, the freedoms we have been recklessly taking for granted will be inconceivable.

The simple reality is that Russia isn't going to abandon the Eastern Ukrainians to the violent whims of Zelensky and the corrupt western Ukrainian regime, AND it has international law on its side (UNSC resolution 2202) something the US etc didn't have when they started their war against Syrians with an unprovoked, illegal invasion and have kept going with their ongoing war crimes as they occupy part of Syria, so the fantasies of Zelensky and others of being able to rule over the industry and agriculture heavy east are like Trump's fantasies that he was going to remain President last year.

The US may be determined to use up all the excess weapons and ammunition that NATO has, and slaughter a lot of Ukrainians in the process, but in the end, there will be either a peace deal along the basic geographic lines set out in the previous two, or western Ukrainians will revolt against anyone who wants them to continue to be NATO'S cannon fodder and then either the US accepts the embarrassing defeat, or tries to rewrite history blaming it all on Zelensky and co. (And history is pretty clear, it'll be the second option)

PTownsendToday  07:56 am JST

Ukraine and Russia have both relied primarily on Soviet-era T-72 tanks, which have been destroyed in their hundreds in 11 months of fighting.

Soviet era? i.e. the time Putin the Kremlin and others opposing progress want to return to, but it's an era that many Ukrainians are literally giving their lives to prevent having to relive.

it's more like the czarist era, before Soviet Communism. But the czarist era ended over 100 years ago, it ain't coming back but Putin wants the old Empire's dominence, by either installing puppets like he did in Kazakhstan nearly a year ago or by force as in Ukraine.

The globe's reactionary right seem to actually believe that it's possible to return to some imaginary time when things were great and even glorious.

Just like in America with that 'Make America Great Again' slogan crap and see the disastrous shameful results THAT led to.

Hopefully not before you comment on President Vučić's statement on Crimea and Donbas :)

I’m sure he’ll avoid doing that, so let me quote directly from president vucic himself ;

“We said from the beginning that we cannot support Russia's invasion of Ukraine,” Vucic said in an interview with Bloomberg on Jan. 18.

“For us Crimea is Ukraine, Donbass is Ukraine – it will remain so.”

Guess you didn't see it, but Germany is living a good life already without RuSSian "gas"!

I thought Western Europe was supposed to 'Freeze to death' this winter? It was the great hope of the Putin Kids.

They will be dismayed to hear that the continent is getting by without the only things that Russia has to offer.

Russia will prevail at the end!

I'm sure you thought the same about Serbia right ?

this war will end the same way - in defeat

Germany probably assumes Trump is the next US president so they are waiting for things to get back in order.

Biden provoked Putin, and look what happened.

I know the 'Biden provoked Putin' line has been parroted throughout alt Reich Fright media. Perhaps Lavrov and the Kremlin translated what Biden said to Russian and interpreted it to mean something that in their minds would justify the war. Interesting that the Putin idolators actually think their messiah is so fragile that words spoken by Biden would make Putin risk the lives of dozens of thousands of his own people, and do damage to the country he and his oligarchs own.

The very statement "Nuclear powers don't lose major wars." is an admission that the mini-me brigade is losing.

If everybody doesn’t start helping Ukraine out more quickly and Ukraine does get overrun, the cost to pay is going to be a lot higher later.

What’s everybody waiting for?! This isn’t just Ukraine’s ass on the line, it’s the rest of us as well.

The German know Russian would immediately cut off gas too them , Ukraine is not worth a German recession

Germany already is cut off from Russian gas, theyve now got their LNG processing ports up and running in record time

Russia will prevail no doubt!

Which is why they’re reminding people of nukes if they lose.

Yes, all great powers destined to win say "If we lose, we nuke everyone." Nothing says "confidence" like threatening nuclear armagedon.

Fun Fact: The US, UK and France are all nuclear powers as well and the locations of Russian "decision centers" are well known.

Double Fun Fact: The US doesn't need to utilize it's nuclear arsenal to hold the Russians to accout if they are stupid enough to cross the nulear threshhold AND THEY KNOW THIS.

Thus the Huff and Puff by Mini-mini-me and his band of alcolytes (and keyboard fan-bois).

What makes you think Ukraine is going to end any differently because of American and other Western technology?

Every example since Early 1991.

Thank you for your question. Next?

Russia will prevail no doubt!

Which is why they’re reminding people of nukes if they lose.

Padraig Bohannan

I find your comparison, to finding a methodology for peace between the conflict/struggle in Northern Ireland the tensions between Catholic nationalists and Protestant loyalists and the Invasion of Ukraine, the genocide and subsequent war crimes on the behest of Vladimir Putin President of Russia frankly remarkable.

Yrral,

"The German know Russian would immediately cut off gas too them , Ukraine is not worth a German recession"

Guess you didn't see it, but Germany is living a good life already without RuSSian "gas"!

Those Lepards will start rolloing, too, sooner than later. It would make much more sense than the Abrams anyways. Maintaining a turbine engine is more difficult than maintaining / repairing a Leopard engine. But whatever it is -

Ukraine prevails!

Destroyed Leo 2s and other Western equipment in Syria. 

Also keep in mind that the armor sold to many foreign customers of the Abrams is not the same armor used on US Army tanks. That armor is highly classified and not sold to customers outside of very close US allies. Example, Egypt builds their own Abrams but they are not the same as those the US Army has. That may be another reason that the US doesn't want to give Ukraine Abrams tanks straight out of the US inventory.

Of course if the Americans went in with air superiority after taking out Russian air defences and C3I with a full fledged combined arms offensive (which the Uks can’t do) they would roll over the Russians in their present state, but the Russians would definitely make a nuclear response…

If it ever came to that the NATO response would be conventional. B-2s and F-35s would be busy taking out Russian nukes with precision guided conventional munitions. PGMs and hard target penetrators reached a point towards the end of the Cold War that it is possible to take out ICBMs and deeply buried bunkers with conventional ordnance. Modern all aspect low observable tech makes reaching those targets possible. The US and Royal Navies would make quick work of Russia's SSBNs.

Only one plausible reason for NATO, US and EU to be so hungry for a Victory against Russia through it proxy Ukraine puppet. That is, ownership of the country through debt and onerous reconstruction loans that will be impossible to repay. That happened to Greece and Cyprus and they did not have a war. And it is always the imposition to the losing factions. Not that we can predict which one will lose.

Destroyed Leo 2s and other Western equipment in Syria. 

Those Leopard @s you refer to were Turkish Army Leopard 2A4s. They have none of the features found on Leopard 2A6s and 2A7s for urban warfare. They have an older flat sided turret design and an older armor. German experience with their Leopards in Afghanistan taught them a great deal about fighting with tanks against modern ATGMs. But what really doomed those tanks was the Turks sent tanks to fight in towns without infantry support. If you watched videos of Russians invading Ukraine you saw the Russians made the same mistake. Long lines of tanks entering Ukrainian towns with no infantry support. Ukrainian Army ATGM shooters tore those armored columns up.

Read an article this morning that Russia had put ten modern light anti-tank vehicles into the conflict, and that they were performing very well. Meanwhile, the allies are donating hundreds of modern, light, anti-tank vehicles to Ukraine. At this rate, I expect Ukraine to defeat Russia this year.

Actually, the weapons being donated by the allies to Ukraine are not the best they have. But, they are more than good enough to sweep the Russians from the field. Up to this point, Ukraine has been given enough weapons to bleed Russia dry. The next step is to thoroughly defeat the Russian armed forces, which is not far off.

Eastman - what do you make of President Vučić's comments on Crimea and Donbas today?

It might be fear of escalating things that Germany fears, but more likely it is the fear of what images of Germany's 'good' tanks 'cooking off' after being hit by a drone bomb or an antitank round, being towed by a farm tractor, breaking down and being abandoned, etc, just like Russia's 'crappy' tanks will do to their sales.

That would explain why they're saying that they won't have any objections to German made tanks ending up in Zelensky's hands IF American made tanks end up in his hands at the same time.

fallaffel - agreed. Peace has to be just before it can be lasting. Otherwise it is just surrender.

There is a difference between peace and appeasement.

Trust me! If they could find peace there, they can find it between Russia and Ukraine.

Sure Russia is the aggressor. Nothing but death, destruction, and misery will come by giving Ukraine tanks and missiles.

To say nothing of letting our tech fall into the hands of Russia if it is captured!

Padraig - I do believe Ukraine would feel much better about talking peace with Russia if Russian forces went back home. Otherwise, who would want to negotiate with an invader in their house? I rather just shoot them.

Peace came to Northern Ireland only after negotiation and brokering agreements. Nobody thought they'd ever see that day come. But it did and has been fantastic.

Those who lived through the "troubles" (I never liked that term btw) felt reborn. The chance of a united Ireland coming ever closer.

Trust me! If they could find peace there, they can find it between Russia and Ukraine.

Sure Russia is the aggressor. Nothing but death, destruction, and misery will come by giving Ukraine tanks and missiles.

To say nothing of letting our tech fall into the hands of Russia if it is captured!

I don't think Russian tanks are what NATO worries about. NATO countries can surely defeat Russia in a conventional war. Ukraine is doing quite well with just the relatively small amount of weapons NATO countries is providing them with.

I think more than anything they are worried about the tech falling into Russian hands, which is a legitimate worry.

A Russian invasion of the west with T type tanks is nothing to worry about. An invasion with tanks based on advanced western tech on the other hand...

Use as much tax money as possible. 

I’m glad my tax dollars are going to the Ukraine!!!! We should send more to help them…

Biden provoked Putin, and look what happened.

What happened?

All that has happened is the world laughing at Russia as it’s struggling to invade Ukraine?

Trust me Americans are not afraid of Russia …

I think more than anything they are worried about the tech falling into Russian hands, which is a legitimate worry.

A Russian invasion of the west with T type tanks is nothing to worry about. An invasion with tanks based on advanced western tech on the other hand...

I made a mistake, Poland has 116 Abrams, and over 200 Black panther South Korean tanks, and a fleet of leopards with supporting infrastructure. And they have ordered more. All they need is Germany to ok the transfer. Might be Poland time to get revenge on Soviet/Russian brutality.

The new production Abrams and Black Panther tanks are on order. The new production Abrams won't be delivered until 2025-2026. The Poles have 16 used Abrams on lease and the 116 you mention are used USMC Abrams that are on order with no delivery date yet. Only about ten of the Black Panthers have been delivered so far. Deliveries will continue through 2025 or 2026.

Biden provoked Putin, and look what happened.

what happened !?

I made a mistake, Poland has 116 Abrams, and over 200 Black panther South Korean tanks, and a fleet of leopards with supporting infrastructure. And they have ordered more. All they need is Germany to ok the transfer. Might be Poland time to get revenge on Soviet/Russian brutality.

No, it doesn't mean they can't destroy them, it means they have no answer to them. For example, a Challenger 2 tanks can survive many hits by RPGs before they are destroyed.

A Challenger II in Iraq was hit by over 70 RPGs without stopping it. There are plenty of examples of Abrams surviving direct hits from Russian made APSFDS rounds from T-72s. There were occasions where an Abrams was disabled in urban combat, either by damage to the suspension or a hit to the engine (this was before TUSK was developed) and rather than risk a tank recovery crew getting shot up by insurgents the US decided to just destroy the tank completely. Shots from another Abrams did nothing. Abrams' armor can defeat the best US anti tank round. Javelin and Hellfire could not defeat the armor either. It required an F-16 to drill it with a Maverick missile to destroy an Abrams.

I can understand Germany not wanting to provoke Russia.

Biden provoked Putin, and look what happened.

> Anyway Russia will neutralize those weapons.. 

They haven’t yet… You’re “new world order” is getting it’s butt kicked by Ukraine…. Lol lol

NATO motto, kill people for peace. Use bigger weapons. Use as much tax money as possible. UN motto, our headquarters is in New York.

If Russia had not attacked Ukraine, NATO would not be supplying these weapons to Ukraine. This is clearly Russia's fault.

We seem to be escalating to WW3.

It does seem to be true. If Russia attacks any more nations, it could very well turn into that.

I will admit when I'm wrong. When Romney said in 2012 that Russia was the biggest threat out there, I thought he was nuts. I was entirely wrong.

NATO motto, kill people for peace.

Russia motto - kill citizens for Putin’s ego

Use as much tax money as possible.

steal as much tax money as possible

UN motto, our headquarters is in New York.

putin motto, My huge palaces are all over the world - thankyou poor Russian peasants

Turkey had a number of their Leo 2s knocked out in Syria by some rabble army a few years back so what makes you think Russia couldn’t do the same on a larger scale?

Turkiye has older Leopard 2A4s. Those were designed before the wars in the Middle East. Turkiye's older Leopards are optimized for high speed armored warfare in open terrain, tanks fighting other tanks. They do not have the equipment or greatly improved armor of a modern Leopard 2A6 or 2A7 that defeats modern anti tank rounds or even RPGs. The do not have cage armor or reactive armor the Germans developed for newer models of the Leopard based on their experience fighting in Afghanistan. The same is true of the Abrams btw. Based on experience fighting in Iraq the US came up with something called TUSK for Tank Urban Survival Kit that includes reactive armor panels over the treads and cage armor on the rear of the turret and rear face of the tank hull protecting the engine all designed to defeat RPGs and ATGMs fired at them from the sides or the rear. In addition the Turks employed their tanks in urban areas without infantry support. No tank is survivable in urban warfare without supporting infantry. The Russians made the same mistake early in the Ukraine invasion, long lines of tanks entering Ukraine cities with no supporting infantry. Ukraine ATGM shooters decimated those tank columns.

The German Government is the very definition of Churchill's adage

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile-hoping it will eat him last.

Whether it be energy policy, economic, monetary or fiscal, the German Government has only one agenda its own self interest.

The German Government has been steering the EU for decades, there is no doubt that Germany has taken full advantage of European Monetary Union and of the euro at the detriment of all other member states.

Provide Ukraine with the heavy weapons and tanks regardless of German veto.

Abrams tanks need a huge logistics trail. Leopards have an existing logistical trail. Poland, Estonia, Latvia all have the trained people to service, repair Leopards. Think Russia after loosing over a 100,000 people is on its last legs, try 500,000 untrained and they still attack. Peoples lives are nothing for Russia. In 2023 it’s a pretty upsetting to watch.

NATO motto, kill people for peace. Use bigger weapons. Use as much tax money as possible. UN motto, our headquarters is in New York.

Axel

It would be, if they had an answer for these advanced tanks. But they don't.

The Russians don't have an answer for American and German main battle tanks? i.e. The Russians can't destroy them?

No, it doesn't mean they can't destroy them, it means they have no answer to them. For example, a Challenger 2 tanks can survive many hits by RPGs before they are destroyed.

US Ukraine Debt Ceiling Limit

The debt ceiling limit has risen 100 times in the last 100 years, & it’ll rise again this year

whats your point ?

This is a massive heads up for the Russians to exploit and plan for.

how exactly could they exploit this ?

If anything, they’re probably peeing their pants

Ukrainain blabbing how they are getting diesel from Bulgarian,thru Romania , Russian knock all of Ukraine ability to produce fuel

As I mentioned in another post, US has given what amounts to less than 300usd/person so far (assuming 100 billion USD). A lot of it is used to purchase weapons from American companies. If that small amount could solve these bigger problems you mentioned, it would have been done a long time ago.

Homelessness and a massive drug problem in the USA ....also ageing infrastructure and roads etc...No money for universal health care but billions for munitions and war ...

What a crazy world we live in !!

US as now lost the ability to sell bonds to finance the debt, meaning Ukrainain are not guaranteed,they will receive monetary aid from the US Google US Ukraine Debt Ceiling Limit

Time to talk to each other. No more men need to die on either side.

There has to be a ZOPA in order for talks to be of any use, otherwise there is just a lot of shouting. The issue of giving up territory seems to be a hard 'no' for both sides, so the fight continues until it doesn't.

Time to talk to each other. No more men need to die on either side.

This all ends if Russia turns tail and goes home. There doesn't even need to be a negotiation. This whole war was the decision of Russia, and it's continuation is because Russia has decided to continue it.

No more men need die on the Ukrainian side. But as long as Russian soldiers keep stepping over the border into Ukraine, they deserve the death they get.

Send them a table 12 chairs and 12 bottles of water.

Time to talk to each other. No more men need to die on either side.

More weapons for the kyiv regime to make money selling them on the black market..

Like Russia cares about that lol.

non ads s-flying air farce

WTAH, autocorrect?

“non-flying”….

The “air farse” part is correct. Go figure….

The Bradley’s etc. are nice but the UA needs a Western MBT. This is war, let’s let the UA win it as they will on their own if given the right equipment.

Let’s give it to them. The Leopard is a better choice that the M-1 due to the logistics tail.

The Germans really need to get past their history and help Democracy win in Europe.

Anyway Russia will neutralize those weapons..

With what? They’re non-floating ships? Where are they? They’re hiding out in the Azov Sea out of Neptune range. Their non ads s-flying air farce? Their drunken rabble of a conscript “army”?

Russia is moving alright, East. (That’s not “forward” in case you’re not near a map.)

Regardless of what Germany does or refuses to do Poland is going to send their Leopard 2s to Ukraine and replace them with new Abrams, which they have on order now.

Now if Japan wanted to be really helpful, the Type 90 tank the JGSDF uses is basically a Japanese built copy of the Leopard 2. They are too big to be used any place in Japan except Hokkaido and were procured with an eye on defeating a Russian attack there. Send those to Ukraine and replace them in Hokkaido with the new Type 10.

Homelessness and a massive drug problem in the USA ....also ageing infrastructure and roads etc...No money for universal health care but billions for munitions and war ...

What a crazy world we live in !!

More weapons for the kyiv regime to make money selling them on the black market..

Meanwhile, the US, with its NATO puppet, continues to fuel the war, cowardly manipulating Europe so that they continue to pressure aid to the kyiv regime..

Anyway Russia will neutralize those weapons..

Yevgeny Prigozhin, leader of the private Russian mercenary force Wagner that has taken a leading role in fighting near the eastern city of Bakhmut, claimed on Thursday his forces had seized the village of Klishchiivka on Bakhmut's outskirts. Kyiv has previously denied that the settlement has fallen.

And Artyomovsk about to fall, but kyiv will also deny it..

Russia moving forward..

This is a massive heads up for the Russians to exploit and plan for.

The problem for Russian forces is they do not have the ISR capability to find and attack western arms being sent to Ukraine. The Russians attack immobile apartment blocks, schools, hospitals, theaters and shopping centers because they don't move around and don't shoot back. The Russians don't the kind of real time ISR that would allow them to attack moving targets over defended airspace.

The German know Russian would immediately cut off gas too them , Ukraine is not worth a German recession

The Russians already cut off gas to Germany. Germany has found other sources, and an unusually warm winter means their gas storage is over 80% of capacity.

The defeat of a nuclear power in a conventional war may trigger a nuclear war," Medvedev said. "Nuclear powers have never lost major conflicts on which their fate depends."

The Russian is talking out of his afterburner. The Russians already know what happens if they use any kind of nuclear weapon. NATO doesn't need to use its own nuclear weapons to shut the Russians down either. That is the raison d'etre for the B-2 and F-35.

Why do they publicly announce exactly the type, number and delivery date of all their weapons transfers to Ukraine?

It's called transparency, something expected of elected representative governments.

Nuclear powers have never lost major conflicts on which their fate depends."

Like Afghanistan, right?

Like the Cold War?

When mini-mini-me starts yapping about nuclear weapons, you know the Russians are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

"The defeat of a nuclear power in a conventional war may trigger a nuclear war," Medvedev said. "Nuclear powers have never lost major conflicts on which their fate depends."

Having a nuclear arsenal is not a cheat code to allow a country to do whatever it wants. Appeasing nuclear blackmail just results in more.

It would be, if they had an answer for these advanced tanks. But they don't.

The Russians don't have an answer for American and German main battle tanks? i.e. The Russians can't destroy them?

What is it? Everyone knows this is very far from the truth but what makes someone say it anyway? Is it trying to justify for yourself the cost to tax payers? Is it just publicly stating ones fantasies? I really can't guess.

Ukraine and Russia have both relied primarily on Soviet-era T-72 tanks, which have been destroyed in their hundreds in 11 months of fighting.

Soviet era? i.e. the time Putin the Kremlin and others opposing progress want to return to, but it's an era that many Ukrainians are literally giving their lives to prevent having to relive. I wonder whether many currently living in former Soviet Socialist Republics see what Putin/Prigozhin/the Kremlin and their murdering thugs are doing in Ukraine and are now searching for ways they do not have to risk their homes and lives to prevent the neo-soviets from Moscow again trying to control their lives and seize the resources from their respective homelands. The globe's reactionary right seem to actually believe that it's possible to return to some imaginary time when things were great and even glorious.

The German know Russian would immediately cut off gas too them , Ukraine is not worth a German recession

Russia has responded to the prospect of more weapons for Kyiv with threats of escalation. Dmitry Medvedev, an ally of President Vladimir Putin who stood in as president from 2008-2012 when Putin took a hiatus to act as prime minister, made one of Moscow's clearest threats to use nuclear weapons if it loses in Ukraine.

A clear signal that, although Russia still has a slight advantage here, their special military operation is going extremely poorly and the possibility of these tanks being sent threatens to send the Russians home.

"The defeat of a nuclear power in a conventional war may trigger a nuclear war," Medvedev said. "Nuclear powers have never lost major conflicts on which their fate depends."

Russia’s fate is being set entirely by Russian leadership. Right from the start.

Bronco

Why do they publicly announce exactly the type, number and delivery date of all their weapons transfers to Ukraine?

This is a massive heads up for the Russians to exploit and plan for.

It would be, if they had an answer for these advanced tanks. But they don't.

Sending Abrams tanks, makes no sense because of the logistical challenges. However, if it means that Germany will allow Leopard 2 tanks to be used in Ukraine, then I say: do it.