Brunei's new Islamic criminal laws including stoning to death for gay sex and amputation for theft

Your daily reminder that, yes, cultures are different and in specific instances, such as this, ours is betters than theirs.

Literally wanting to take the world back to the days of the prophet! I can understand harsh laws, but times dictate that laws change as well, and not digress.

Used to be a time where any crime was punishable by death. Then when that changed, prisons became overloaded. Maybe the Sultan is thinking that if the punishment is harsh enough people will follow the law.

Personally speaking, I think the population of the country is going to shrink!

What BS said. Downright medieval.

Horrors.

It’s important to be tolerant of other cultures.

I hope I am misunderstanding you, but it sure sounds like you think it is important to be tolerant of a culture that wants to cut off limbs as punishment and murder people for the crime of being gay.

The Judeo-Christian West is not right by default.

I'd say in this case, we are.

What a huge step backwards. I am waiting for other world leaders to condemn this. It will be interesting to see who does and who chooses to remain silent on this inhumane and barbaric law.

The Sultan, who has reigned since 1967, has previously said the Shariah Penal Code should be regarded as a form of "special guidance" from God and would be "part of the great history" of Brunei. 

A reason I am against any form of Shariah Law anywhere. History tells us that human nature is not necessarily good and quite easy to slip back into this form of barbarism.

This is one of the reasons why justification is given to ban Muslim immigration to the West.

Your daily reminder that, yes, cultures are different and in specific instances, such as this, ours is betters than theirs.

Yep. Just better. No need to get uncomfortable with the word better in this case.

This is backward filth. It has no place in this millennium.

This is one of the reasons why justification is given to ban Muslim immigration to the West.

Unfortunately, it doesn't justify it. By banning Muslims, you are discriminating against an entire group of people due to the perceived actions of a subset of that group (which, is really pretty much exactly what racism is). The problem is not the group, the problem is the action. Condemn the action. Maybe even stop the action. But when you apply what is essentially a racist stereotype of a group to individuals, you will punish individuals for actions of which they are not guilty, and may not even agree with. And how can anyone think that is ok?

I hope I am misunderstanding you, but it sure sounds like you think it is important to be tolerant of a culture that wants to cut off limbs as punishment and murder people for the crime of being gay.

I also hope I am misunderstanding you as well, it sure sounds like you are saying that being gay is a crime?

Brunei's Sultan doesn't care about a few random people online who pretend to be outraged about a country that they have never, or will never visit. If the majority of his people approve, then he his doing his job as a ruler.

Absolutely crazy!

Uggh. Just ugghh.

Alas, here in the 21st century, these are the practices that should be disappearing, not on the rise.

How barbaric. I hope some of them get asylum in other countries.

Brunei's Sultan doesn't care about a few random people online who pretend to be outraged about a country that they have never, or will never visit. If the majority of his people approve, then he his doing his job as a ruler.

It seems you think you made a point there that should matter somehow, but I'm not seeing it.

It's interesting to read people's reaction to this. I'm a cultural relativist so I agree with Burning Bush to a large extent. I'll be the first to harshly criticise the spread of these Islamic values in my own society, but I fully respect the rights of other societies to adopt whatever preferences they wish. It's not my place to decide that their preferred way of living is inferior to mine. Otherwise, what's to stop them from deciding that my cultural preferences and values are barbaric and need to be stamped out forever? To believe in objectively 'better' cultures is a recipe for conflict and a slippery slope towards endorsing every historic genocide or imperial conquest.

Saudi religious extremism continues to spread.

a major foreign policy concern in the region was that Southeast Asian nations would soon fall like dominoes to militant communism supported and abetted by the People’s Republic of China. Fortunately, the dominoes held. 

Today, the old domino theory may well be applicable to a new danger – Islamic extremism. 

https://www.asiasentinel.com/society/wahhabism-in-southeast-asia/

It's interesting to read people's reaction to this. I'm a cultural relativist so I agree with Burning Bush to a large extent. I'll be the first to harshly criticise the spread of these Islamic values in my own society, but I fully respect the rights of other societies to adopt whatever preferences they wish. It's not my place to decide that their preferred way of living is inferior to mine. Otherwise, what's to stop them from deciding that my cultural preferences and values are barbaric and need to be stamped out forever? To believe in objectively 'better' cultures is a recipe for conflict and a slippery slope towards endorsing every historic genocide or imperial conquest.

What you are saying is fine in cases like not allowing women to drive or requiring a woman to cover her face in public. But the death penalty for living a lifestyle that is accepted in the majority of the free world?

70 years ago, we went to war to stop a leader that wanted to wipe out a specific type of people. How is this different?

Brunei's new Islamic criminal laws including stoning to death for gay sex and amputation for theft

I wouldn't call that "new".

To believe in objectively 'better' cultures is a recipe for conflict and a slippery slope towards endorsing every historic genocide or imperial conquest.

How about not being violent to non-violent people? I think it's a good start, and it's not a slippery slope.

And I thought our government and laws were bad. Anyway, welcome back to the stoneage Brunei.

What do they chop off for adultery?

Debating Islam is not PC nor acceptable to Muslims so I won’t.....

What do they chop off for adultery?

Not sure why this article doesn't mention it, but the other pieces I've seen say that stoning will also be the penalty for those guilty of adultery:

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/27/asia/brunei-anti-lgbt-stoning-law-intl/index.html

M3M3M3: I fully respect the rights of other societies to adopt whatever preferences they wish.

Then you fully respect the death sentence for gay people in Brunei.

Failing to pray on Fridays? Is a crime? Ones relationship with an entity surly is a personal one, not one to be judged by anybody else.

As long as they keep it within their own borders, go nuts. But the rest of the civilized world needs to keep this toxicity out of their countries.

Horrible. Am gladdened to see the outpouring of support for LGBT people, here, bringing light on such dark and barbaric laws.

Your daily reminder that, yes, cultures are different and in specific instances, such as this, ours is betters than theirs.

But what is your definition of the term ''culture''? Is stoning gay people really their culture? Brunei is not a democratic society, and their government is not elected, and therefore the people running the country are not representatives of the people's will. Do most people in Brunei really want or approve of this law? Culture means social norms, i could be wrong, but i am highly skeptical that most people in Brunei believe in this ''norm''.

And also, who is ''ours''? Japan is not a christian country, and Japan does not stone gay people. India is not a christian country, and India does not stone people. Turkey is a muslim country, and they don't stone people. Indonesia does not stone people. Who is ''we'' and who is ''they''? This has nothing to do with religion because do i have to remind you that Christian nations used to do much worse than stone others? This has to do with dictators using religion as a tool to solidify their power and control.

No single country can claim monopoly over democracy, or personal freedom. Those are natural things that all humans aspire to. People like you who claim those things as part of ''your'' culture are chauvinists who think they are superior to others. But i can't blame you that much since there is so much propaganda pushing this narrative, i would be surprised if you didn't subscribe to it.

Do most people in Brunei really want or approve of this law? Culture means social norms, i could be wrong, but i am highly skeptical that most people in Brunei believe in this ''norm''.

While I don't have data on Brunei or these specific punishments, the majority of SE Asian Muslims do support sharia law. This has a breakdown of such support across most other nations with large Muslim populations:

https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Turkey is a Muslim country

Turkey is a secular country, although Erdogan is trying to chip away at that.

This has nothing to do with religion

Yes, it does. It is strict Sharia. It’s not unheard of in other countries which apply strict Islamic law.

This has to do with dictators using religion as a tool

So it does have something to do with religion. It’s a very useful tool if you want to enforce revolting punishments and solidify power.

Depraved rulers with a barbaric "religion". Luckily for Brunei, these issues don't come into calculations when you are oil-rich and a member of the TPP. Member states like Australia, Japan, Canada and NZ will all just look the other way.

Brunei's government can set any laws they want inside their borders. What to steal? Want to engage in gay sex? Don't go to that country.

Problem solved.

Another place to avoid. I think Brunei, along with Saudi Arabia, is often referred to as one of our "allies". Those places should be ostracised: no visas, no trade, no sporting contacts, expelled from international bodies etc. Who wants to interact with people who think it's OK to amputate children's limbs?

@Scrote

In an oil economy,the criticism has to be tempered-one hundred years from now it’ll be different!

Totally ridiculous. Countries with laws like this should not even be allowed into the UN.

Some people seem to think killing gays is alright. What if South Africa decided to kill all the whites. Would that be OK? Same thing. Humans always have to have someone to despise so that we think we are not at the bottom. Whether it is a racial minority or gays. Human nature I guess. Too bad. Civilization is in decline.

Let’s be clear here....they are talking about finding gay people and murdering them.

Just wanted to make that clear.

Let’s be clear here....they are talking about finding gay people and murdering them.

And yet progressives will turn a blind eye and continue to go to bat for Islam and Muslim immigration.

And yet progressives will turn a blind eye and continue to go to bat for Islam and Muslim immigration.

I’d call myself a progressive and I’d never ‘bat’ for Islam.

My take is not to discriminate against people who identify as Muslim, but to unequivocally criticise any Muslim who holds barbaric and discriminatory ideas based on that belief.

It is also worth pointing out there are many reformist Muslims who also find this stoning/amputation filth disgraceful. There are also Muslims who escape barbaric regimes like this.

I don’t want to shut the door to decent people. Muslim reformers in particular are among the bravest people out there.

The people who try to shout down any criticism of Islam or beliefs held by some Muslims with shouts of ‘bigot’ or ‘phobe’ have been called the regressive left.

These people are not progressives.

Imagine the uproar by this regime and other hardline Islamists if the collective West were to proscribe behaviors it considered culturally inappropriate and mandate the observance of behaviors considered to be in keeping with the maintenance of its identity. The West can no longer afford to go on being a cat’s paw to people that wish to have their cake and eat it.

My take is not to discriminate against people who identify as Muslim, but to unequivocally criticise any Muslim who holds barbaric and discriminatory ideas based on that belief.

And I daresay if you polled liberals about Muslim immigration that an overwhelming majority would be against allowing anyone in who supports sharia law. Not to mention that immigrants have to swear an oath of allegiance to their new country and its laws.

As a reminder, more than 40% of democrats even supported Trump's travel ban on Muslims so it's not like the party is of one progressive mind on this issue.

And I suppose these rules apply to Jonny foreigner to! so what about Christians or Buddhists, who don't pray on a Friday, what will happen to them? its all a bit archaic, medieval type discipline, for a modern country in the 21 century. some Arabic states are very restrictive on alcohol, and same sex genders, and kissing in public, and holding hands is punishable in some places, so two blokes having a beer holding hands and having a kiss watching the sun go down on a beach holiday could land you in prison for about 40 years!! these sort of places re NOT on my top 10 holiday destinations.

The problem is not the Muslim people its the Sultan who is the problem here and Islamic laws that he is trying to implement.

There are tonnes of Muslims who "silently" condemn many of the medieval archaic practices of Islam brought about by their Prophet.

That is why so many Islamic woman try to escape from their abusive families and abusive religion and for them to do that is like a farm animal (cows) trying to escape their fate from being bred to be butchered or artificially inseminated every year to produce milk to the human population at the cost of her own body and her calf that is taken away from her every time and sold for veal if male and used for milk if female.

Islam is one of the last religions that have not yet moved into the 21st century. Driven and controlled by male domination with no regard for women, children and animals.

I feel so sorry for so many Muslims who try to escape this religion but who are persecuted until death because they are not free to choose another religion or to be atheist or not to submit to the cultural and religious practices. I.e. praying, sacrifices, forced to marry, forced to wear DARK, deathly clothes only with beautiful eyes visible. Its like being wrapped in grave clothes with no escape.

No - I do feel sorry for the ones trapped not because they chose the religion but because they were born into this religion and I feel free males who occupy high positions in governments in the Western World are not doing enough to help people who want to escape Islam. This is not only limited to women, there are men who also question Islam and want to be free to live their lives not be dominated by their fathers, Imam's and family members in this religion.

I wish more Muslim leaders around the world would condemn this practice, and the brand of Islam of Islamic State, al-Qaida, Boko Haram and so on. What, for example, does the imam at the Al Noor mosque in Christchurch think about this enforcement of sharia law in Brunei? How do the good citizens of Christchurch (and PM Ardern) who showed their solidarity with Muslims feel about this story?

I know some fine Muslims who hate this sort of extremism, but unlike other religions, there doesn't seem to be one leader that can speak for its adherents.

Best to avoid those Countries. Ignore the fancy TV adverts, just dont go there for Tourism.

While I don't have data on Brunei or these specific punishments, the majority of SE Asian Muslims do support sharia law. This has a breakdown of such support across most other nations with large Muslim populations:

Ah yes, my favorite argument - "The Statistics Say..", the more sophisticated version of "I once caught a fish this big".

Well, i don't agree with these statistics, or any statistical data for that matter for many reasons. First and foremost, these results are based on no more than 1000 people, so the sentence "X% of Muslims in X country agree with Sharia Law" should really read "X% of 1000 people of X country agree with Sharia law".

Also, it very much depends how was the question was asked and what is these people's definition of Sharia Law, it also depends on who exactly were these 1000 or so people, probably even less, and how were they selected.

Those are just some of the reasons all statistical findings are a load of crap. Just tell me what narrative you want being pushed, i can find you statistics somewhere that "prove" that narrative. I also remember reading many times in the past PRC public polls on various topic that i know for an absolute fact to be false. There is a reason why in America, a poll conducted by Fox gives you one set of results, and a poll conducted by CNN gives you another. Same happens in Japan by the way.

Turkey is a secular country, although Erdogan is trying to chip away at that.

Turkey is a Muslim country, and even in big cities most people wear Hijab, and there are mosques everywhere. Despite being a Muslim country, people seem to be civilized and don't want to stone gay people. Why is that? Could it have anything to do with democracy and economic prosperity?

Yes, it does. It is strict Sharia. It’s not unheard of in other countries which apply strict Islamic law.

I've heard many definitions of Sharia Law. Can you give me an example of a democracy Muslim country that stones people?

So it does have something to do with religion. It’s a very useful tool if you want to enforce revolting punishments and solidify power.

Using religion as a justification to solidify your authoritarian rule over people, NOT using people's religious beliefs to manipulate them to give you power. God wants me to be your King, all the laws i pass are approved by God, so i am justified vs I believe this is what God wants, elect me if you agree. Big difference.

If the same sex couple was caught in action and then the Sharia Court should order the couple to do Sex reassignment operation instead of stoning to death. Brunei is very wealthy Kingdom and it afford to pay for the couple Sex reassignment surgery.

So,where is the debate and reform on Islam?

It is impossible to have!

Hi All,

I have been living in Brunei for 6 years now. You might be surprised to read that I feel that I’ve never lived in a more peaceful, laid-back and happy place! I’ve lived in several countries around the world and Brunei has been the most chilled out and happy, in my experience.

It will be interesting to see what happens as this latest law gets implemented. Shariah has come in in stages over the last few years. I will be surprised if anything actually happens, but I guess time will tell.

There is death penalty for drug trafficking but there hasn’t been an execution since the 70’s. I just cannot imagine it becoming like Saudi with these new laws coming in, but time will tell.