Man due in court over Tucson shooting rampage

stopping Fox "News" would go a long way to ridding the hatred knee jerk mentality that America has become. Since that will not happen, the results will continue to be obvious.

sf2k:

" stopping Fox "News" would go a long way "

But MSNBC "news" is A-OK, right?

In the event, this particular nutcase had hardly any identifiable political orientation. Look at his Youtube channel, it is still there. It is all about mind-control and bizarre rants that make no sense whatsoever.

WilliB: "It is all about mind-control and bizarre rants that make no sense whatsoever."

Ummm... nah, won't say anything about that to you, Willi. :)

You're right though about the political affiliation bit. Remember that for next time there's a lone nut who tries to kill a bunch of people -- if he is indeed a lone nut.

What bothers me about this incident, aside from the obvious fact that this idiot killed a bunch of people, is that it IS getting so much more attention than usual, simply because one of the targets was high-profile? Why don't the tens of other mass murders in the US get equal attention from government/law makers? Sure, they get the requisite 'tragedy' and 'let's mourn' from leaders, but nothing like the vigils and serious talks we're seeing now. Who knows? maybe it's a GOOD point to all this; maybe they'll finally start to take 'certain' issues seriously.

I was thinking the same as Smith. The amount of attention is somewhat disturbing considering so many other similar events. But this does go beyond even the fact that some of America's unofficial aristocrisy were attacked. America is seeing a result of its hype and anger filled politics and few attacks have that even if the body count is higher.

And one more crucial thing: because she was a politician, something will change. There will be some new law, resolution or campaign. The president spoke up quickly. That would not be the case if they were all trailer park residents. I hate that, but that is the way it is.

stopping Fox "News" would go a long way to ridding the hatred knee jerk mentality that America has become

At least Fox viewers ( 3 million people, from among 310 million citizens - to give some much needed perspective ...) bother to get SOME form of news.

Cuz Sfk2 certainly doesn't .

The killer was described by class mates as very left-wing.

But I don't think that matters. He is psycho. For now that is all you can say.

stopping Fox "News" would go a long way to ridding the hatred knee jerk mentality that America has become.

Sorry, I know you hate allowing people to hear a balanced perspective, but doing everything you can to silence them is simply wrong. You have heard the term 'freedom of speech' right? Just checking, since I mean you seem to be so opposed to it.

What bothers me about this incident, aside from the obvious fact that this idiot killed a bunch of people, is that it IS getting so much more attention than usual, simply because one of the targets was high-profile? Why don't the tens of other mass murders in the US get equal attention from government/law makers?

There are a lot of reasons. First, is obviously because shes a woman. A young decent looking female lawmaker. Second, there were multiple victims. 3rd, public place. 4th, kids and other notable people killed as well. I think it also has to do with the fact that the killer was taken alive, as well as to a lesser extent, that she's a Dem. Finally, its not often that political figures in this country undergo attempted assassinations. That right there makes this a major story. Thus, I think its obvious why this in particular is getting so much attention.

Bobby Rush, quote: “We need to realize that every face in the crowd is not a friendly face,” he said. ???

I hope he means: "We need to realize that not every face in the crowd is a friendly face."

Sarah, give us the next list.

The Glock semiautomatic he used held a 31-round clip (he was tackled while attempting to insert his second clip) and was illegal until 1994.

Brace for the cries of, "If only bystanders had been armed; he could have been stopped earlier!" With that crowd, such a scenario would have most likely led to more deaths.

It's been almost 20 years to the date since John Hinckley's attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, and if that failed as an impetus for gun reform, this tragic event will also vanish like a pebble tossed into the ocean. Foolish, foolish society.

But I don't think that matters.

If you don't think it matters then why is it in your comment?

I have reached the point where I basically now pay no attention to any comment by an American which contains either the terms "right wing" or "left wing". In American usage these terms have devolved into propaganda weapons that have no relation to their real meaning. Also pay no attention to anything from anybody who thinks Fox is a news channel.

A couple of points not in this article that deserve comment though. The actions of the people who were able to disarm the shooter, and also the young guy working as the congresswoman's aide who apparently was able to keep her alive with emergency first aid. Whether they were just acting on instinct or had managed to keep their heads in all the panic, it is at least good to see that some people act like real human beings still.

Also pay no attention to anything from anybody who thinks Fox is a news channel.

The only ppl here I see mentioning Fox are not Americans.Why are u guys so fascinated by Fox?

Just read an article on Al-Jazeera describing similarities with the Taseer murder in Pakistan. Regardless of what was in the article, (and it was an interesting read in its own right) I can also feel similarities in that someone ends up as a sacrifice for the madness of society. The assassin who cleverly thinks he has come to some logical conclusion, is also a pawn in some larger game, an expression of deeper forces. Let us hope this incident draws our collective poison for a little while.

It's been almost 20 years to the date since John Hinckley's attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan,

30 years, surely?

I think a lot of the partisan catchphrases and blame going on here is a perfect example of why some people are blaming the state of US politics as a factor here. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans pulled this trigger, yet there are numerous people here willing to blame one side of politics or the other. No wonder people get all frustrated and worked up. The guy was a nut case (a gun carrying nut case suspended from his college for mental issues, no less) and not representative of either political party. Trying to score cheap political points by supporters of either side shows a fairly strong disconnect with reality.

Now is everyone's chance to endorse donkusai's post. I do. How about you?

And surprise, surprise, someone has already introduced gun-control legislation. I swear they have these things pre-written, and just wait for a nutso to go off so they can propose them.

Just another day,in torn and shaken paradise world.

One more starry eyed assassin,meets his own farewell, via lifetime prison life.

Trying to score cheap political points by supporters of either side shows a fairly strong disconnect with reality.

Thats about spot on. All they talked about on the news this morning was Palin's website and political rhetoric, not one word about the shooter and only a brief update on Giffords condition. Our priorities are terribly out of whack.

So, most Americans you know are very stupid and misinformed.

Don't know about the rest of SolidariTea's post but the bit about the unions is pretty much on the money.

Well, having a two- or three- or more party system is the basis for a democracy. Many Americans take this particularly seriously and the level of thought and debate at schools and colleges constantly surprises me. Once the discussion gets going you can either join in or get blocked out. Many JT Comment columns are often taken over by such debate. Readers from the rest of the world are instantly locked out once the two sides swing into action and the place becomes stultifyingly tit-for-tat. Every time it's like, "Here we go again!"... It seems as if the combatants have become blind to anything else. Maybe we need to read up more on US political news.

Interesting that she considered herself middle-of-the-road. Here's hoping for her sake and her husband's sake and the sake of the whole nation that she makes a full recovery.

Many JT Comment columns are often taken over by such debate. Readers from the rest of the world are instantly locked out once the two sides swing into action and the place becomes stultifyingly tit-for-tat.

It's a lot like a diner for angry old people. They've been going there for years, they all hate each other, but they keep comming back out of habit.

Molenir:

" And surprise, surprise, someone has already introduced gun-control legislation. I swear they have these things pre-written, and just wait for a nutso to go off so they can propose them. "

uh-uh... shall we start talking about a false-flag operation? Conspiracy theories always find friends here.

nandakamanda:

" Just read an article on Al-Jazeera describing similarities with the Taseer murder in Pakistan. "

Absolutely not. The Taseer murder was a very clear and expected political act. If you look at the website of the Arizona shooter, you find no identifiable political ideology whatsoever. Apples and oranges. Which of course didn´t stop the democrat party hack sheriff in charge to politize it immediately.

Why are u guys so fascinated by Fox?

I didn't bring up Fox, just commented on what people were already arguing about. Also not fascinated by it, just don't think it is a news channel, and that it exists to serve other purposes. If people want to watch it go ahead, but I prefer to get my news from a news outlet.

As for the idea that the shooter was just a nut with no identifiable political ideology, I think you actually kind of want your political assassins to have an ideology. Nuts running around shooting politicians without any coherent ideology behind what they are doing is a pretty bad state of affairs to have.

Both sides need to tone it down. There are already potential nutsos out there; the last thing they need is a trigger.

And there's no longer any balanced news. Balanced news means giving equal voice to both sides. When one side gets more to voice their agenda, then it's already slanted.

IvanCoughalot,

You've got me there - dates all seem to melt together at my age, but that extra decade of inaction itself does not speak well.

Hey Sarah, you need to account for the collateral damage in the case of the 9 year old girl.

Hey Sarah, you need to account for the collateral damage in the case of the 9 year old girl

Nice try McC72. Are you aware that in the most recent election a local Arizona Democrat named Harry Mitchell ran a televised ad that the shooter would have been far more likely to see than a Palin webpage? The ad featured Mitchell's repub opponent JD Hainsworth in the crosshairs of a target.

But I will not go so far as to say that "caused" him to go out and shoot a politician, a republican judge and children.

Cuz that would be a cheap shot, the cheapest of shots in modern America, if u ask me.

Oh. I won't say it is partisan, but I will state the obvious. She was killed because of political beliefs that she held so strongly that she was willing to keep them despite death threats and various intimidation efforts over many years. And her beliefs were only denounced as dangerous and treasonous by one side of the spectrum, so people should just do the math. I don't have to say it.

Gabby is an accomplished Arizonan, married to an astronaut. The little girl who was gunned down was born just days before Pat Tillman, another patriotic Arizonan, decided that his principles and her birthday were worth giving his life and his future for. Who would call them partisan before calling them Americans first? And a federal judge? Wow. This was not senseless, people. Someone targeting a duly elected congressman and a sitting judge is not an insane spree killer.

All of those people, from Gabby to Pat, set their sights on representing and improving the polity. They set their sights on doing things to help others. Even that little girl was not just a 9/11 celebrity. She lent her spirit and specialness to various causes to improve the polity.

Most obviously, others are willing to "set their sights" on ripping the polity apart by destroying these people, or killing them. In that same Cochise County, 130 years ago this October, Virgil Earp was gunned down after local newspapers had riled the people up enough to convince them that the Earps were murderers and not just Arizonans trying to protect their polity from a crooked sheriff and dirty politics. Cochise County, Arizona, and America continue to let their best and brightest and wisest take bullets in the head because of hate.

Enough. If it can't be ended for reason or decency, let it end by shame. Politics that "take aim" at humans ought to be banned, and Sarah Palin should lead the charge. It is the least she could do.

Klein2:

" Oh. I won't say it is partisan, but I will state the obvious. She was killed because of political beliefs that she held so strongly "

Says who? Do you have information about the motivation of the shooter? Please share it. Because nobody else has it. Certainly his website says nothing about party politics.

but I will state the obvious. She was killed because of political beliefs that she held so strongly that she was willing to keep them despite death threats and various intimidation efforts over many years.

You are a psychiatrist? A mind-reader? The shooter met her in 2007. He was obsessed with creating a new language and a new currency. he was a nutjob. He asked her something about how could gov work if words have no meaning. She did not reply to his question. He later told classmates she was "stupid and unintelligent."

Right now that is all we can say. Sorry, but if Palin is guilty by some wild tangent so is President Obama ("If they bring a knife, we bring a gun.")

Can't have it both ways....

Solidaratea

Hayworth and Mitchell ran against each other in 2006. Hayworth was opposing McCain for senator in the most recent election.

DNC ad from 2004:

“Targeting Strategy” “BEHIND ENEMY LINES.”

Daily Kos commentary, Jan 06:

"I am from the Tucson area and live in Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords' district... Today, just a little while ago, I saw on Andrea Mitchell Reports that Giffords voted against Nancy Pelosi as our minority leader. … Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords is dead to me now."

Will Keith Olberman now blame leftist hate speech for the shooting?

Will Keith Olberman now be supporting the right to carry semiautomatic weapons?

The comment above that these tragedies bring about pre-made gun-banning arguments has it backwards: these arguments would not be necessary without the tragedies that these weapons enable.

Of course you can always check "urban dictionary" and find out what the phrase "dead to me" actually means...

Unfortunately Arizona allows only lethal injection and the gas chamber. They need to change the law to allow execution by firing squad in this case.

Sarge; Why to allow an eye for an eye for religous fanatics?

I think they'd prefer a good lynchin' those sorts.

The death penalty is something I rarely support, but here I don't think there's any doubt. The shooter probably isn't a full shilling but he's clearly fixated on this poor woman for some reason, it's pre-meditated so the quicker they get the needle in his arm the better IMO.

As to Palin and her crosshairs...it's probably unfortunate that the two have now become associated, but that kind of gung-ho attitude that pleases all the Chuck Norris wannabees on the far right...

...Well, you reap what you sow.

One thing that does puzzle me is that eye-witnesses claim the Glock jammed....I always thought it was the one hanbdgun that is considered pretty much infallible?

Enough. If it can't be ended for reason or decency, let it end by shame. Politics that "take aim" at humans ought to be banned, and Sarah Palin should lead the charge. It is the least she could do.

So Sarah Palin is somehow indirectly responsible whenever some nut goes off on a rampage? No, sorry, that doesn't fly at all.

Will Keith Olberman now blame leftist hate speech for the shooting?

lol, of course not. Its all the fault of the right wing hate mongers and their ilk on Fox News.

Sarah Palin: "Don't retreat. Reload."

That is her statement and the mentality of her ilk. Time to own up to it. McCain carefully called for restraint when it was clear the whole right wing frenzy was getting out of hand. But nobody listens to him anymore. We all knew that someday someone on the right was going to lose it. It is not "just" an abortion doctor this time. It is a congressman, a federal judge, a child, and several more.

Go ahead and criticize and obfuscate. Pile it on, people. When it comes out that he is an anti-semite, xenophobe, tea-party affiliated, etc., you will just have to feel that much more guilty about it. This is not John Hinckley and you know it. It is Turner Diaries and John Bircher.

Truly sad.

Molenir. If it can't be ended for reason or decency, let it end by shame. If Palin were truly presidential, she would acknowledge that this kind of thing is an American disease. Can she bear even a jot of shame for this imagery of "taking aim at people"? Even the NRA does not teach people to aim at people. So how did taking aim at politicians come into the US national political discourse? Why does she show national politicians as targets? How quickly she runs from any responsibility. Her only statement is denial of any connection. No condolences. No nothing. Just denial and running for cover, presumably at home with her secessionist husband.

I used to think the wingnuts could not think. Now I see that they can not even feel.

Make no mistake. My point is not to say that Sarah Palin is responsible at all. Oh no. Not in the least. Crosshairs on political maps and statements about guns and hunting used in campaigns are not meant to energize or influence people at all. No. She is not responsible, and it will never ever be proven that she was. And hey, if it can't be proven, it can't be true, right? People will be comfortable with that.

No. My point is different. I think she is showing that she was and is very... irresponsible.

WilliB and Tea, regarding me being a psychic. Well, let's put it this way. Does this sound like a tea-party recruit?

"Mr. Montanaro recalled his friend developed "a hate for government and just how everything was systematic...He thought government controlled people too much.""

and for anybody who knows anything about the internet, this is an impossible claim from the American Renaissance.

"The group’s leaders said in a posting on their website that Loughner never subscribed to their magazine, registered for any of the group’s conferences or visited their Internet site"

and, oh brother, I have heard this kind of thing before:

"Loughner claimed the college was illegal according to the U.S. Constitution."

Add to that that facts that he was into "specie-monetarism" and that he called his act an "assassination" a priori, in writing, and you don't have to be a psychic.

Hmm. Suspicious of government and the Fed. Right wing anti-semitic xenophobic group cannot plausibly deny a connection to him, but denies it anyway. Interpreting Constitution for fun and profit. Admits a priori he targeted her as a political figure (that is what "assassination" means). Sounds pretty classic to me. Jumping to conclusions? I could tippy-toe a conclusion here. He is even getting Tim McVeigh's lawyer! This Arizona guy was a typical right wing dork who shot at her, the judge, and others to make a political statement. And he will make more.

My psychic powers? Psychic powers like these help me tie my shoes, buddy. Gyaku ni, a person would have to do some serious contortion to make a claim that this guy had the political motivations of John Hinckley.

Laguna:

It's been almost 20 years to the date since John Hinckley's attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, and if that failed as an impetus for gun reform, this tragic event will also vanish like a pebble tossed into the ocean.

Almost 30 years. Never heard of the "Brady Bill"? Or when you said "reform", did you mean "ban"?

SolidariTea:

The only ppl here I see mentioning Fox are not Americans.Why are u guys so fascinated by Fox?

Because Fox reports news that rattles their precious little, narrow worldviews.

runwithscissors:

Now is everyone's chance to endorse donkusai's post. I do. How about you?

Considering your first posts on the previous thread...

nandakandamanda:

Here's hoping for her sake and her husband's sake and the sake of the whole nation that she makes a full recovery.

Yes indeed.

GJDailleult:

Also not fascinated by it, just don't think it is a news channel, and that it exists to serve other purposes.

You mean like trying to affect a presidential election with bogus claims and falsified military records? Oh wait, that was CBS...

lostrune2:

And there's no longer any balanced news.

I doubt there has ever been any balanced news.

McC72:

Sarah, give us the next list.

Hey Sarah, you need to account for the collateral damage in the case of the 9 year old girl.

You should read threads before commenting on them. You were debunked before you even sat down to type.

Klein2, that was excellent post... right up until the last sentence. Although, since everyone on the Left is convinced that she is that powerful and influential over all Americans, left, right, and in between, then maybe she should lead the charge. Glad to know that you think she is a capable leader, and the kind of leader America needs now.

Junnama:

Of course you can always check "urban dictionary" and find out what the phrase "dead to me" actually means...

Just as you can look up surveyor's symbols. Funny how you want the public's perception to be the defining factor over symbols, but not definitions.

Madverts:

One thing that does puzzle me is that eye-witnesses claim the Glock jammed....I always thought it was the one hanbdgun that is considered pretty much infallible?

I never thought the Glock lived up to its hype. I arrived at a gun range one day just as an ambulance was pulling out. Someone was trying ammo they loaded themselves and their Glock basically exploded in their hands. Just one of the reasons I use factory ammo. And Sigs.

Klein2:

Sarah Palin: "Don't retreat. Reload."

That is her statement and the mentality of her ilk.

“They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun” “Get in Their Faces!” “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!” “Hit Back Twice As Hard” “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“ Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat” “It’s time to Fight for it.” “Punish your enemies.” “I’m itching for a fight.”

Barack Hussein Obama.

Go ahead and criticize and obfuscate. Pile it on, people. When it comes out that he is an anti-semite, xenophobe, tea-party affiliated, etc., you will just have to feel that much more guilty about it.

And now that it's coming out that he liked reading The Communist Manifesto and that his friends say he is left-wing, are you going to feel guilty about it?

By the way, he couldn't be anti-Semite and Tea Party affiliated. Not only does the American right-wing support Israel better than the Left, but anti-Semetic flyers are found at left-wing rallies and protests. Or did you not know that either?

Why does she show national politicians as targets?

She doesn't. She shows their districts as targets.

How quickly she runs from any responsibility.

Yeah, as opposed to the DNC and Moulitsas, who are owning up to and apologizing for their bullseye target maps. Oh wait, they're not. Maybe because America Leftists in the media and on forums aren't holding their feet to the fire with the same fervor that they're going after Sarah Palin. Oh no, never mind that Democrats and left-wing activists have been using the same symbolism for years before Palin ever hit the national stage, must ignore that and make Palin carry all the guilt.

Make no mistake. My point is not to say that Sarah Palin is responsible at all. ... No. My point is different. I think she is showing that she was and is very... irresponsible.

No, your point is that she's the only one irresponsible. Enough with the stupid pathological myopia already.

and, oh brother, I have heard this kind of thing before:

"Loughner claimed the college was illegal according to the U.S. Constitution."

You might want to put that in context. According to everything I've seen so far, Lougher referred to the constitution we recognize as the "second constitution". In all likelihood, your quote above was referring to the Articles of Constitution, which Loughner viewed as the 'real" constitution.

Right wing anti-semitic xenophobic group cannot plausibly deny a connection to him, but denies it anyway.

Again, the Tea Party is neither anti-Semitic nor xenophobic. Stop projecting your ignorance and bigotry.

He is even getting Tim McVeigh's lawyer!

McVeigh wasn't a right-winger either. He was an anarchist who would have targeted Bush 41 as well.

This Arizona guy was a typical right wing dork who shot at her, the judge, and others to make a political statement.

Considering you don't know what a "typical right-wing" anything is...

My psychic powers? Psychic powers like these help me tie my shoes, buddy. Gyaku ni, a person would have to do some serious contortion to make a claim that this guy had the political motivations of John Hinckley.

Impressing Jodie Foster is a political motivation?

This isn't a left vs right issue. Get over yourselves.

This guy was nuts and more interested in living in his dream world. He doesn't care/believe in reality. He just wants to dream and create chaos.

Whether he is right-wing or left-wing remains to be determined but his attitude and actions are a sign of where partisan politics is heading. Increasingly the extreme left and right are becoming angry, bitter and indoctrinated souls, who seem to be losing their ability to have rational, educated conversations with each other. Conversations have been reduced to name calling, hyperbole and out right misinformation feed to them by msm pundits (CNN, Fox News, et al), who’s main concern is fuelling the fire for ratings. The vast majority of the public that isn’t on the extreme left or right need to stand up for themselves and tell extremist to take a hike before more people starting violently expressing their political ideology. One thing for sure, the media will be sure to exploit this case, as will political pundits on each side and the really issues will continue to be ignored.

Lest we forget, let's remember what those liberal pinkos over at the US Secret Service had to say about right-wing rhetoric, specifically from miss sarah palin:

Sarah Palin's attacks on Barack Obama's patriotism provoked a spike in death threats against the future president, Secret Service agents revealed during the final weeks of the campaign.

The Republican vice presidential candidate attracted criticism for accusing Mr Obama of "palling around with terrorists", citing his association with the sixties radical William Ayers. The attacks provoked a near lynch mob atmosphere at her rallies, with supporters yelling "terrorist" and "kill him" until the McCain campaign ordered her to tone down the rhetoric. But it has now emerged that her demagogic tone may have unintentionally encouraged white supremacists to go even further. The Secret Service warned the Obama family in mid October that they had seen a dramatic increase in the number of threats against the Democratic candidate, coinciding with Mrs Palin's attacks. Michelle Obama, the future First Lady, was so upset that she turned to her friend and campaign adviser Valerie Jarrett and said: "Why would they try to make people hate us?"

The attacks provoked a near lynch mob atmosphere at her rallies, with supporters yelling "terrorist" and "kill him"

That's quite a change-up in class from "yes we can." Just sayin.'

Taka

And is this the right thread to discuss racial profiling to find the next one of these guys BEFORE he's unleashed? Anyone?

That cracked me up.

Taka

The agents of intolerance are no closer to accepting that individuals like Palin not only breed hate, nor realizing they are ultimately detrimental to their cause. I've even seen them recently claim their invasion of Iraq hasn't ramped up worldwide terrorist attackes nor fueled fundementalism, so I have no expectations of any honesty on any issues in general.

I'm sure the facts will come out. Whether this crank was politically motivated or whether she turned down his advances or even just looked at him strangely could be the cause. He's a nut.

That is her statement and the mentality of her ilk. Time to own up to it. McCain carefully called for restraint when it was clear the whole right wing frenzy was getting out of hand.

Whats so pathetic about this whole attempt to smear the right, and the Tea Party for this, is that the guy, at least according to one of his classmates, was a liberal. Add to this the over the top, vicious, hate filled things said by the vile left wing libs, and its almost unbelievable that they aren't simply laughed out of the room. Go check out Michelle Malkins site. She details a small sampling of the venom espoused over the past few years by the left. Or for that matter, just recall all the threads where even the mere mention of Palins name, would have you loony-leftwing libs, frothing at the mouth. Perhaps its time to recall the murder Bush statements made by so many of you long time leftist posters as well, you remember, where you would suggest that someone ought to assassinate Bush. Still want to try to make this about right/left? If anyone ought to be blamed for this, it is the little left wing hate filled idiots, that are so very prevalent.

"Why does she show national politicians as targets?

She doesn't. She shows their districts as targets."

No. She NAMES all of those "targets." Use your eyeballs. You have obviously NOT seen the map Palin put out, have you? Just spraying your posts, aren't you?

If the radio pundits and others think their rhetoric has no influence, then perhaps they should resign and find a more productive line of work. Of they won't because they do, in fact, have influence.

Also, one does not have to listen to them to know what they are saying because what they say is so outrageous that it gets reported on. On this point all of media deserves to be held responsibile for creating an echo chamber of over-blown rhetoric.

"Make no mistake. My point is not to say that Sarah Palin is responsible at all. ... No. My point is different. I think she is showing that she was and is very... irresponsible.

No, your point is that she's the only one irresponsible."

I never said any such thing. Ever.

Regarding all of your other posts, I guess I can sum it up with you being a naysayer and obfuscator... and that is about it. I used information from the articles on JT and the Wall Street Journal. Big deal. Look at you reaching for straws. And NO, impressing Jodie Foster is NOT a political motivation. That is my point. Read it again. Read it all again. You say he is a liberal lunatic or a John Hinckley, or whatever. I say he isn't. I make a logical inference based on what the available information shows.

He tried to kill an elected representative and a federal judge because of their political views at a political event. This is a political killing. Try to spin it. Keep trying. I won't be convinced that the guy just did this because he could not get to a crowded McDonald's.

Anyone ever read the Turner Diaries? Guess not. Good.

If the radio pundits and others think their rhetoric has no influence, then perhaps they should resign and find a more productive line of work. Of they won't because they do, in fact, have influence.

Productive? In what way are they not productive? They are making a pretty good living, simply espousing their opinion. Not only that, but they're providing a good living for a huge number of people that work for them as well. That seems pretty damn productive to me. That you disagree with their opinion really doesn't matter. Feel free to go out and try to create your own program in the same way. If you succeed, great, you'll have earned it.

You say he is a liberal lunatic or a John Hinckley, or whatever. I say he isn't. I make a logical inference based on what the available information shows.

Sorry, but the information available suggests as I and others have pointed out, that he is a left wing nutcase. A mentally disturbed guy who ranted about mind-control. If your theory has any merit at all, the reason he shot her was because of her vote on border security. Since I highly doubt that, I am forced to conclude that your argument and indeed your judgment in this case is lacking.

He tried to kill an elected representative and a federal judge because of their political views at a political event. This is a political killing. Try to spin it. Keep trying. I won't be convinced that the guy just did this because he could not get to a crowded McDonald's.

Really? A left wing loon tries to kill a center left woman, and a right leaning judge because of their views, and you want to blame the right? Again, it really does make it seem like your judgment is questionable.

"Sorry, but the information available suggests as I and others have pointed out, that he is a left wing nutcase."

No. The information that you have selectively cherry picked supports your case. The "liberal nut case" view is coming solidly from some guy on the right who overlooks Mein Kampf on this guy's reading list and blogs and jumps all over the Communist Manifesto.

"A left wing loon tries to kill a center left woman, and a right leaning judge because of their views,"

Nice try. But the more you try to say that this lady was hunted by the left, the more contorted your appeal. You also miss the point that he was a FEDERAL judge. Right wing lunatics want to dismantle government, as we see in the Turner Diaries and every tea party campaign slogan. The agenda is clear. If the right cannot co-opt, corrupt, or smear a popular candidate who wins consistently at the polls, well then the right always has at least one more option... doesn't it? It is a disgrace that is not uncommon to ol' Cochise County. The cowboys are hunting down the Earps all over again.

He has been arrested before. Look at his mugshots, not his high school yearbook pictures.

The guy was a skinhead.

No. The information that you have selectively cherry picked supports your case. The "liberal nut case" view is coming solidly from some guy on the right who overlooks Mein Kampf on this guy's reading list and blogs and jumps all over the Communist Manifesto.

Actually, its coming from some of his former classmates. People who knew him, rather then people who want to comment on his preferred reading list.

Nice try. But the more you try to say that this lady was hunted by the left, the more contorted your appeal.

You say this despite the fact that on left wing blogs, she was being targeted as a bad Democrat? Talk about a desperate attempt to shift blame.

Right wing lunatics want to dismantle government, as we see in the Turner Diaries and every tea party campaign slogan. The agenda is clear. If the right cannot co-opt, corrupt, or smear a popular candidate who wins consistently at the polls, well then the right always has at least one more option...

Wow, just wow. De-Nile ain't just a river in Egypt with you types is it. I mean, all you need to do is look at the many, many examples of left wing hate and violence, and you'll see precisely who is involved in corrupting, co-opting, and smearing those they disagree with. As for her being a popular candidate. Barely winning, in left leaning district does not a good argument make.

Despite this though, you are missing the boat. Anyone who wants to make this a right/left issue is. Its not, this is about a nutcase, not his political philosophy, and those who try to make it about it, regardless of whether he is left or right, are acting despicably.

"Actually, its coming from some of his former classmates. People who knew him, rather then people who want to comment on his preferred reading list."

No. I have quotes from people who knew him, shown above, saying he thought the government controlled people too much. And he blogged and had MySpace too. Anti-semitism. Constitution this, forefathers that. Widen your "sights" a little and factor in his voting affiliation, and that sounds like tea-party rhetoric to me.

"You say this despite the fact that on left wing blogs, she was being targeted as a bad Democrat? Talk about a desperate attempt to shift blame."

Yeah. Because everyone knows that Democratic blogs and police blotters are overflowing with death threats from Democrats against Jews and Federal judges. Get a grip. Your denial is what's overflowing. Do you have a memory? McCain told Republicans to back off after they started shouting "Kill" at rallies. Remember that? And what about the guy who brought a gun to Gabby's speech a few years ago? A dem? Not by any stretch. And her office was vandalized immediately after she voted with Obama on health care. This guy is a skinhead, not a hippy.

"the many, many examples of left wing hate and violence"

I think you have two too many "manys" there. Please give me one example. You will be Googling all day for that one, or does throwing a shoe at a G8 or WTO meeting count?

"Barely winning, in left leaning district does not a good argument make."

Pretty cold Molenir. I guess you are saying she deserved to get shot because she barely won? Politics and violence hand in hand is it? One less vote for Obama in the House, is that it? Don't retreat Molenir. Reload.

You don't want to make it a right/left issue because it is. He was a right wing, Fed hatin, head shaving, Mein Kampf reading, judge killing kook who was egged on by a party that puts politicians and judges in crosshairs. You get busy white-washing this, but I see what it is. I am not going to convince you, for sure, because you just don't care how many people get killed for your agenda. You go on and try to convince someone else that this guy did not perform an "assassination" even though he wrote down that he intended to do exactly that and targeted ONLY Democrats, just like Palin did.

"and those who try to make it about it, regardless of whether he is left or right, are acting despicably."

You know what? I want the truth. I am telling people how it looks to me, and I know something. I don't want what FOX tells me or the Huffington Post. You should do the same. I am not posting because I want people to vote Democrat. I want people to see the kind of scum that gets churned up by hate mongers on the right who talk about "second amendment solutions". I don't want people to just accept some dumb quote and attempt to dismiss the whole thing as one more spree-killing. That is bull. He killed people for their political beliefs and political positions. Apparently, he also did it because she was Jewish, which does not bother anyone posting here in the least. He targeted Jews, politicians and judges. Turner Diaries.

This still amazes me. It was earlier reported that American Renaissance said that this guy had never visited their website.

There is no conceivable way whatsoever that a website operator can make this statement accurately about this man.

And yet, they did. Immediately. That speaks volumes.

And the DHS bought it... or said they did.

Either way, I suspect that a lot more information will be coming soon because someone is certainly not telling all that they know.

No. I have quotes from people who knew him, shown above

Lets see, a quote from a former classmate, and someone who said she used to be his friend until he went reclusive, describes him as "quite liberal" and as a "political radical."

I think you have two too many "manys" there. Please give me one example. You will be Googling all day for that one, or does throwing a shoe at a G8 or WTO meeting count?

Go check out Michelle Malkins website, she links to over 100 incidences of violence or threatened violence in just the past few years, and unsurprisingly, all from the left directed at the right. Try again, this time armed with actual facts to back you up.

I want people to see the kind of scum that gets churned up by hate mongers on the right who talk about "second amendment solutions".

While conveniently ignoring the hate mongers on the left, and the scum they're peddling.

The simple fact of the matter is, people who are pushing this as either left or right, have a vile agenda. I wouldn't care if he was a far left loon, or a far right loon. It doesn't change the relative right or wrong of those positions. It just means that theres a nut that shares those positions. You need to quit trying to spin this to further demonize those you disagree with, lets agree that we disagree on politics, and agree that he's a nutcase that should be locked up.

"Lets see, a quote from a former classmate, and someone who said she used to be his friend until he went reclusive, describes him as "quite liberal" and as a "political radical." "

Sorry. That quote and mine seem to cancel each other out. And maybe Marx is cancelled out by Hitler in Jared's library of great books. But don't retreat, Molenir, reload. Try to convince me that skinheads secretly admire Mao and Che more than they admire Adolf.

"Go check out Michelle Malkins website"

Go check out the Coalition to Stop Gun violence website, it does you one better and limits itself to political threats. Oh, but wait. Here is a headline from TODAY'S NEWS! Sen. Michael Bennett of Colorado received death threats just the day BEFORE this shooting. You can guess his political party, and the guy he replaced is on Palin's "gunsight" map! Palin targets Senators too! And the threats were bad enough that the right wing kook has been arrested on Federal charges for yeah. You guessed it. But don't retreat, Molenir, reload and blast away. I know that gun rhetoric really gets your juices flowing, so I thought I would include some.

"The simple fact of the matter is, people who are pushing this as either left or right, have a vile agenda"

The simple fact of the matter is that it is a political assassination. Jared wrote that himself. You need to open your eyes and look at what people are doing in your name. If you want me to look the other way while people who share your beliefs kill elected officials, mothers, judges, and children, you can pound sand. I will blow Gabrielle's trumpet because she can't. If this is how Sarah Putin eliminates her enemies using gun-sights on maps, people should know about it. Why do you want to obstruct that? I would be just as infuriated if someone took a shot at Boehner, but we both know nobody ever will. He is not on Palin's hit list.

"lets agree that we disagree on politics, and agree that he's a nutcase that should be locked up."

Agree absolutely on both counts. I knew this was going to happen from the very first time I heard Republicans talk about killing people who disagreed with them. McCain did too. So why did "lock and load and reload" Sarah not see it coming? She either knew and did not care, or she did not know and should have. She whips things up, collects her check, and walks away when her fans start shooting her targets.

"But oh... she could not have stopped this."

Yeah. But why do I think she would not even try?

If this is how Sarah Putin eliminates her enemies using gun-sights on maps, people should know about it.

Ummm....It was posted on her website for all to see what Congressional districts were being "targeted" be her and her PAC during the election campaign.

She whips things up, collects her check, and walks away when her fans start shooting her targets.

You've offered not one single shred of evidence to support that contention. Not one single shred. There isn't any evidence that this guy even knows who the heck Palin is. Yet you've pretty much convicted her of this murder with the most outlandish claims and you don't even blink an eye.

Go check out the Coalition to Stop Gun violence website, it does you one better and limits itself to political threats.

So you say this, and yet avoid Malkins site where she lists real cases of violence.

Political hit squads have been operating throughout the western US for over a century, at least as far back as the Clantons, and this skinhead was up on it. And the anti-semitic groups? She would not be the first outspoken Jew they have killed.

Wow, just, wow...

"Ummm....It was posted on her website for all to see"

UMMMMMMM. Yeah. That is kind of the problem. If she feels no guilt or regret, then why did she take it down immediately? Why did she get her aide to say..UMMMMM... they are surveyor's marks? Palin herself referred to them in "gun" terms.

Loughner was so violent at college that the school requested a mental health professional's assessment that he wasn't a dangerous before they'd let him back in. This pretty much seals the case the Loughner has serious mental health issues and had a history of violent behaviour.

Like I said before, if it hadn't been this then it would have been something else, the political rhetoric didn't "make" anyone else start shooting, so clearly there isn't a cause-effect relationship between the political rhetoric, in fact statistically I can say that is one guy in 310 million does this then with 98% certainty it is NOT exclusively because of political rhetoric.

"Like I said before, if it hadn't been this then it would have been something else, the political rhetoric didn't "make" anyone else start shooting, so clearly there isn't a cause-effect relationship between the political rhetoric, in fact statistically I can say that is one guy in 310 million does this then with 98% certainty it is NOT exclusively because of political rhetoric"

And see. That makes total sense, until you realize that he stalked and killed/maimed a congressman AND a judge even though he was destitute, using a 500 dollar gun and 30 rounds costing him at least another 50 bucks.

And how come only a day before, 500+ miles away, a Senator and his staff were threatened by ANOTHER gun wielding maniac?

And BOTH were on Palin's gun-sight list.

And BOTH were Democrats elected to high office in Washington in November.

And how come his blog and Facebook pages are full of the stuff that the Tea Party rants about?

And he has a skinhead in Tucson, where the sun beats down, but this crime is not specifically to target liberals or Jews?

No. It's ALLLLLLL coincidence. Nothing to see here. Move along everybody. Move along.

Taka313:

Lest we forget, let's remember what those liberal pinkos over at the US Secret Service had to say about right-wing rhetoric, specifically from miss sarah palin:

And just what did she say about Obama? That Obama "palled around" with terrorists.

Which was true. William Ayers indeed was a terrorist. "Guilty as hell, free as a bird. What a country.", remember? He's supported Obama from the beginning. Six of the eleven Weather Underground "radicals" (terrorists) have served on a campaign committee for Obama.

Nobody is supposed to be angry about that?

But it has now emerged that her demagogic tone may have unintentionally encouraged white supremacists to go even further.

And the connection is...?

The Secret Service warned the Obama family in mid October that they had seen a dramatic increase in the number of threats against the Democratic candidate, coinciding with Mrs Palin's attacks.

...and also coinciding with their increasing prominence on the national stage. Hardly conclusive.

Klein2:

I never said any such thing. Ever.

You've been focusing on Palin from the beginning, all the while deliberately ignoring or downplaying rhetoric from the Left.

The guy was a skinhead.

Looks like he also shaved his eyebrows. Syd Barrett did the same thing. Did that make him a skinhead too? No, that was a sign he was crazy. I doubt Loughner knows what a skinhead is.

No. I have quotes from people who knew him, shown above, saying he thought the government controlled people too much.

Pro-choice proponents say the same thing. Does that make them right-wing too?

Anti-semitism.

A characteristic of the Left. Who supports Israel? The American Right. Who props up, rationalizes and fawns over the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah? The American Left. Look up the activities of Code Pink and Cynthia McKinney.

Constitution

Which Loughner referred to as "the second constitution". He prefers the Articles of Constitution, according to his rants.

You will be Googling all day for that one, or does throwing a shoe at a G8 or WTO meeting count?

Is rioting and burning cars good enough for you? How about pro-Obama SEIU thugs beating a black conservative at a town hall gathering?

Mein Kampf reading

Hitler was a Leftist. National Socialist Party, remember? Supported by Leftist academics and writers in the U.S., remember?

He killed people for their political beliefs and political positions.

A point you keep repeating but have yet to prove.

Apparently, he also did it because she was Jewish, which does not bother anyone posting here in the least.

Your proof being what, exactly?

He targeted Jews, politicians and judges.

You keep forgetting about the girl. Did he target a 9-year-old girl?

Turner Diaries.

So I looked up The Turner Diaries on Wikipedia. Pretty disturbing stuff. Don't see how it relates to this shooting, however. Was it on Loughner's favorite book list?

The simple fact of the matter is that it is a political assassination. Jared wrote that himself.

He's a nutter. He asked her a nonsensical question back in 2007 and she blew him off. According to everyone we've heard from in direct contact with Loughner, he hated her and became more obsessed with her after that. Doesn't sound political to me; it sounds crazy.

I would be just as infuriated if someone took a shot at Boehner, but we both know nobody ever will. He is not on Palin's hit list.

I've liked Palin since her first national speech after McCain picked her. I've defended her when Leftists accused her of everything from shooting moose from helicopters to rigging the vote on a "reality" show to - and even I didn't see this coming - ordering political assassinations. I know a lot of other people who like and politically support her. I even know quite a few women who think her husband is hot. But I don't know anybody that would kill someone for her.

Yeah. But why do I think she would not even try?

I suspect the answer comes from within you.

The President, Barack Obama, has made the verdict that no one knows why the crazy man acted in the way he did. The president has rejected the far left loonies of his base. America can move a few steps forward after this. Bravo.

Klein2:

" And how come his blog and Facebook pages are full of the stuff that the Tea Party rants about? "

His blog is full of rantings about mind-control, English grammar, and him creating his own currency. Among his favourite books are both mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto. Since when are any of these things "stuff that the Tea Party rants about"?? How do you up ideas like this?