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Australian court ends Qantas strike, fleet grounding

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I really do not know too much about this Qantas airline, by actually by educational background is economics, seems to me this airline, Qantas is too big for it's own good, time to break it up into regional carriers and bring in some good old fashioned COMPETITION into the Aussie market. IMHO mates.

-5 ( +3 / -7 )

Elbuda Mexicano,

It got nothing to do with the airline being to big for its own good, its got to do with ridiculous pay demands by unions and also stupid restrictive conditions that the unions are trying to put on the airline to stop it using labour in other countries to go the work that is currently done in Australia. Out of a total workforce of 35,000 you are talking 1000 jobs that may go. So these greedy workers and unions are risking 35000 jobs and inconveniencing the traveling public for the sack of 1000 jobs. Most of the 1000 positions to go could be filled with voluntary redundancies anyway.

Its about time business stood up to these idiot unions that are ruining Australia, its also funny how the federal government did Qantas's hard work for it by getting the union action banned.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

to Mexicano - Qantas is a privately owned company and is well run and one of the few airline companies in the world which paying it's way, domestically. There is no argument that it pays it's employees and pilots better than most. But it competes with airlines from "everywhere" when it comes to international business and those airlines are invariably govt. owned or fully supported by a foreign government - and those foreign airlines run from much cheaper centres than Australia. Qantas has been screwed for months and months by unreasonable unions ( described by the court as such ) and affected by strikes in customs and immigration staff. So what should Qantas do but say enough is enough and stop. As the news reports, this withdrawal to the court for support was the right course to take. There will be those passengers who complain ( fairly so ) but the blame shouldn't be with Qantas but with "you know who". If you have "travelled", meaning if you have been around for a few years, you will know that there are more often complaints with other airlines than Qantas. Try to find a perfect airline in the difficult business today and you will find Qantas on a higher level than most.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Mexicano - the Australian domestic market is too small to sustain a significant number of airlines. Currently there's Qantas (and their discount carrier Jetstar) and Virgin, with Tiger having a small operation. Australia has less than 23 million people spread over a land area close to the size of the continental USA. There's already a lot of competition for the international market.

Qantas may be flying again, but this will do a lot of damage to the reputation of the brand internationally. Maybe Joyce wants to make the airline look unprofitable to force the creation of the Asian offshoot? The same CEO who accepted a 73% pay raise while saying union demands were impossible to meet?

The unions and management need to find a happy medium instead of dragging this dispute into the new year.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Cant they just change jobs and work for Emirates its the number 1 airline for several years now, they would pay double what Qantas crap pays and would have better perks also..

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Thanks mates! Spidapig, Huberts, and The Harper, very good comments. So do you all recommend Qantas??

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

anglootaku

Cant they just change jobs and work for Emirates its the number 1 airline for several years now, they would pay double what Qantas crap pays and would have better perks also..

Thats hilarious, Qantas actually pays its pilots more compared to Emerates. Senior QANTAS pilots earn up to $536,000 per year, second officers start on $110,000 per year. Emerates by comparison pay its pilots a starting rate of $85,000 US per year. Yes with Emerates you get medical, housing etc. But there is no union and Emerates are getting a bad name in the airline world for pay cuts and not honoring contracts which is why they are always recruiting.

And having flown Emerates recently l have one thing to say NEVER AGAIN will l fly on that dirty, crappy airline.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

So do you all recommend Qantas??

Rainman certainly does. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJZQkslDBjM

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Ok I will take a look at this youtube now papasmurf and rainman. Cheers!

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Sorry Papasmurf, this youtube link looks like a virus?? Something about me being a winner and register for?? I will one day have to fly Qantas for myself so how good or bad it really is.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

So as I said before, it is illegal to strike in Oz (unless you ask your mom for spidapig). I wonde if Joyce acted in a protected action??. So much for a democratic country.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

scoobydoo

So as I said before, it is illegal to strike in Oz

Hey Scoobydoo, may l suggest before you post you actually look these things up. As has been pointed out to you before it is not illegal to strike in Australia provided you follow the correct procedure which was already explained to you.

(unless you ask your mom for spidapig).

Good personal attack there, l guess you have trouble accepting your wrong hey.

I wonde if Joyce acted in a protected action??.

No it wasnt protected because he actually took no action, thats the funny thing all he did was threaten. Actually it was a great move on his part. He didnt lock out any employees, he didnt not pay them he just stopped the planes. So he didnt breach any laws, what he did do was force the incompetent union supporting federal government to take the matter to FWA. By doing so the government was forced to take on its backers in the union. The funny thing is yes QANTAS was ordered to resume flying but also the unions where banned from taking any more industrial action. Big win for QANTAS, big lose for the unions and Labor.

So much for a democratic country.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

@Spidapig Thats hilarious, Qantas actually pays its pilots more compared to Emerates. Senior QANTAS pilots earn up to $536,000 per year, second officers start on $110,000 per year. Emerates by comparison pay its pilots a starting rate of $85,000 US per year. Yes with Emerates you get medical, housing etc. But there is no union and Emerates are getting a bad name in the airline world for pay cuts and not honoring contracts which is why they are always recruiting.

And having flown Emerates recently l have one thing to say NEVER AGAIN will l fly on that dirty, crappy airline.

Are you serious? I do know they pay their cabin crew very high wages, regarding pilot salaries, I guess I have to look it up more, are you sure your not referring to someone who has no experience? as opposed to someone who does, regarding salaries?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The food and service on Emirates, I have to say is top notch compared to Qantas, were the food tasted like overcooked crap in the microwave...

2 ( +4 / -2 )

From one source regarding Qantas pilot salaries I found: Captain basic Au$180,000 Captain top Au$320,000 F/O basic Au$120,000 F/O top Au$190,000 Flight Pay Au$140 per day av. meal allow Leave 42 days, no restrictions. Staff Travel On Qantas and major airlines Discounted Holidays Yes

0 ( +1 / -1 )

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

anglootaku

Are you serious? I do know they pay their cabin crew very high wages, regarding pilot salaries, I guess I have to look it up more, are you sure your not referring to someone who has no experience? as opposed to someone who does, regarding salaries?

Given that the current action is by pilots (international only not domestic) and baggage handlers l was refering to pilots not cabin crew. The figures for QANTAS have been widely reported in the Aussie media for some time now and the Emerates pilot rates are off Emerates recruiting sites so l would say they would represent the current situation quite accurately. You can go to aviation sites that compare wages between airlines to verify as thats where the figures come from.

And yes while QANTAS isnt perfect (prefer SA or Korean), after flying Emerates to Abu Dhabi and London recently l will never fly that airline again. I would rate it as my worst ever experience flying. Im talking food, service, the aircraft themselves the whole experience was crap (and thats being polite).

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

spidapig I am aware there is a process, your not the only person in the world who knows these things, but it defeats the purpose of having the freedom to strike if any person has a grievance. They have been ordered by the courts back to work essentially depriving them of their rights to their opinions. The company boasts profits earlier so isn't it fair that the people who work there share in the profits? The difference between a lockout and stopping all the planes is semantics. Its the same thing. Its like the joke where the kid says "I'm not pulling the cats tail, I'm just holding it, the cats doing the pulling"

I'm not wrong, you just don't agree with me. I am sure there are many others also but there are many who would.

You shouldn't take any thing you read on these boards personally or as a personal attack.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

anglootaku

Qantas pilots moving to Emirates Airlines http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-pilots-set-for-strike-action/story-e6frg95x-1226092714988

Did you actually read this article, it is saying that QANTAS put forward a proposal to let pilots take leave to work for Emerates if they wished as their are too many pilots in the QANTAS pilot pool. Nothing about them leaving because of better pay...

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

@Given that the current action is by pilots (international only not domestic) and baggage handlers l was refering to pilots not cabin crew. The figures for QANTAS have been widely reported in the Aussie media for some time now and the Emerates pilot rates are off Emerates recruiting sites so l would say they would represent the current situation quite accurately. You can go to aviation sites that compare wages between airlines to verify as thats where the figures come from.

And yes while QANTAS isnt perfect (prefer SA or Korean), after flying Emerates to Abu Dhabi and London recently l will never fly that airline again. I would rate it as my worst ever experience flying. Im talking food, service, the aircraft themselves the whole experience was crap (and thats being polite).

Those figures are off comparisons from aviation sites actually.. (not from their recruitment sites) I guess there is the good and the bad in all walks of life, even with experiences, though its interesting to note, when one has a bad experience, it would leave a bitter memory to assume the whole company is bad, I think Qantas having holes in their planes in mid air would be the worst experience to leave a bitter experience then their crap food ^_^

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Holes in the planes, in mid air has happened on several occasions by the way :P

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Gillard cant even show proper leadership in such a dispute, the only last remaining Aussie icon.. before it becomes foreign owned eventually..

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Did you actually read this article, it is saying that QANTAS put forward a proposal to let pilots take leave to work for Emerates if they wished as their are too many pilots in the QANTAS pilot pool. Nothing about them leaving because of better pay...

Yes I did read it, I was just reiterating the point that some are fleeing to Emirates and other airlines, including Singapore etc in general.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Qantas even says it will facilitate annual leave for pilots that wish to travel to Dubai to attend interviews or participate further in the Emirates selection process. The number of first officer positions that Emirates is prepared to offer successful Qantas applicants is said to be 120.

However Emirates is more broadly believed to be seeking up to 700 qualified foreign pilots by the end of next year, and has been a regular recruiter of talent in Australia.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

scoobydoo

spidapig I am aware there is a process, your not the only person in the world who knows these things, but it defeats the purpose of having the freedom to strike if any person has a grievance.

Well if you know about the process why would you make false statements then, if you know all about the process then to say striking is illegal is completely false. As is your complete statement above, if you have a grievance you can still take industrial action, you still have numerous avenues to discuss your grievance and there is a way to settle those grievances through FWA. All the law is doing is stopping the stupidity of union actions in the past where they would call stop works over anything and everything. And it also gives employees a way of airing their grievances. It doesnt take away anyones rights and if you understood the process like you claimed then you would know that.

They have been ordered by the courts back to work essentially depriving them of their rights to their opinions.

Ya WHAT!!! The courts have forced both parties into arbitration to force an outcome thats what's happened. That is how the process works. But you claim to understand that! How has forcing both sides to site down and discuss and reach agreement depriving people of their rights....

The company boasts profits earlier so isn't it fair that the people who work there share in the profits?

You do understand that the aim of business is to make a profit (oh wait l get it your starting to sound like a typical union / labor supporter). If a company isnt profitable then it folds then these 35000 people are unemployed. Thats how it works you realise.

The difference between a lockout and stopping all the planes is semantics. Its the same thing. Its like the joke where the kid says "I'm not pulling the cats tail, I'm just holding it, the cats doing the pulling"

WHAT! Its nothing alike, a lockout is all employees are sent home with no pay and not allowed to return to work, all QANTAS did was stop the planes the employees where still paid (BIG DIFFERENCE), passengers where even given money for accommodation and food by QANTAS. So semantics no big difference yes.

You shouldn't take any thing you read on these boards personally or as a personal attack.

No but smart a** comments like yours were a personal attack and l respond in kind so if you dont like it dont be a smart a***

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Unions fighting to save peoples jobs. Well we can't have that can we? QANTAS have been screwing their workforce down for the last ten years and it reached the point where the staff said enough! As QANTAS has tried to save more and more in costs, particulary maintainence, there has been an increase in problems on their planes. If QANTAS think cutting down on maintaining the airworthyness of their fleet is good economics they should see what a crash does to the bottom line.

The move to go offshore is just the thin edge of the wedge. The end goal is to have cheap labour for maintanence, cabin crew, pilots and administration. They want to be an iconic Australian airline that sources its labour from the cheapest possible country.

So those of you who talk about the "high" wages QANTAS personell earn, when your job is outsourced to a cheaper country come back and tell us how great it is for the company and that you are happy to lose your job to see the company (that you no longer work for) prosper.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

SimondB,

So those of you who talk about the "high" wages QANTAS personell earn, when your job is outsourced to a cheaper country come back and tell us how great it is for the company and that you are happy to lose your job to see the company (that you no longer work for) prosper.

As one of those posters you are referring to that has made comments about the wages etc of QANTAS staff, l have first hand experience of the company l worked for sending work to other countries due to cheaper labour. I have been through this a couple of times now in various jobs l have had and every single time the reason for the company doing this was unrealistic wage demands by unions. Its amusing looking back now how the unions would rant and rave about increasing wages and looking after employees, however when the final decision was made and people lost their jobs what was the unions response? Greedy company trying to increase profits blah blah blah. A lot of people (particularily unionist) forget that companies are their to make money and by unions demanding more and more money until the company is not competitive can only end one of two ways, moving offshore, or closing completely either way the pawns (workers) lose everything. Rather than working with companies unions get greedy and try to punish companies to get more and more from them and it only ends up hurting the worker. That is why manufacturing is a dying industry in Australia.

So rather than lay the blame squarely on the company (yes they do share some blame) also look at the other culprits, the unions and the staff.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Indian and Pakistani pilots are taking Qantas jobs.. some also come here to train how to fly..

0 ( +0 / -0 )

First they take IT work, now its pilot jobs :P

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Cheaper outsourced talent =doesn't mean quality.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Manufacturing in Australia died long ago Spida, unfortunately.. the new trains coming to Sydney are made in good ol China..

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Spidapig

Australians work in Australia and need wages to reflect that. And what the hell is wrong with workers earning good wages? Is this a crime? Companies like QANTAS aim to reduce workers wages so they can pay shareholders more. Or to put it simply, they want to take money out of your pocket and put in theirs.

if you have indeed lost your job several times to outsourcing then I'm surprised you have not yet woken up to a pattern here. Each time you were outsourced did you say "good on you CEO, I hope your profits and your bonus soar"?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

SimondB,

Yes Australians do work in Australia and their wages need to reflect that. The unions and workers also need to appreciate that to remain competitive and viable in a global economy companies need to make a profit. This means just because a company makes a profit then it doesnt automatically mean a pay rise for the workers. You seem to forget without shareholders these companies wouldnt exist, it is a balance that has to be struck between fair wages (not ridiculous ones) and returns to investors / shareholders etc.

While l have been at companies who ship work off shore due to high labour / parts/ and other costs it isnt nice but l do say this every time the prime reason for the move of some work offshore was wages. For example do manufacturing line workers need to earn $36 per hour + overtime and bonuses for basically doing unskilled line work? Then on top of that the union wants 15% pay rise over 3 years. Is that reasonable? Is it any wonder the company said no more and moved work out of Australia.

And no l didnt site back and say good on you to the CEO, but l did express my thoughts to the union and have not been a member of a union since that day. The fact is l support fair pay for employees, but unions need to learn its a 2 way street.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Agree with a lot of Spidapig,s comments Btw, Yes, Australian workers wages need to reflect Australian living costs..but when those wages are way out of whack with what other AUSTRALIAN workers earn and yet the unions keep pushing for more..thats unsustainable.. I know Qantas flight attendants on plum long haul Aus to Europe flights that earn over $100 000 per year and do jack all...telling me thats not unreasonable?

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Actually Marcelito, flight attendant jobs are quite dangerous, due to exposure to cosmic radiation, they have higher chance of getting cancer and various other illnesses, in fact, it is quite often that these flight attendants get some sort of illnesses and that's why they tend to get paid more than the average worker.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I didn't know Fair Work Australia (FWA) was an Australian court.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Australians are showing Asia how to bust unions.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The move to go offshore is just the thin edge of the wedge. The end goal is to have cheap labour for maintanence, cabin crew, pilots and administration. They want to be an iconic Australian airline that sources its labour from the cheapest possible country.

Call me silly but I would say 'offshore' labor like the workforce at Boeing (US of A) and Airbus (France) help make Qantas as popular as it is...

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

On the few occasions I've flown with Qantas I found the service lousy. The employees seemed to think that the planes were flying for the benefit of the cabin crew and pilots and to hell with the passengers. And over the past few years we regularly see TV news items about traumatized passengers disembarking from Qantas planes that have experienced major mid-air dramas. So as far as I'm concerned those dinosaur unions can stay out on strike until hell freezes over, because I'll never fly Qantas again. I suspect that about 70,000 people feel the same way right now.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Yep definitely rattled

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Lets see what Qantas does next to break the unions, outsource everything to Malaysia? Fire the flight crews and ground support and hire Malaysian scabs? Still wonders who did the maintenance on the engines that failed flying out of Singapore?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Meh ... I have a solution for the 100 jobs that are going to be cut: don't fire 'em, assign them to an overseas airport that Qantas flies to, and give am a supervisory role there. Everyone happy, end.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Edit: 1000 ... I guess posting without coffee makes me a lousy typist.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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