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Biden angers France, EU with new Australia-UK initiative

52 Comments
By MATTHEW LEE

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52 Comments

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France apparently wasn't offering up their SNLE 3G or the M51.3 or 4, so Australia chose to go with better: better range, stealthier, faster, more manuaverable, and more apt to survive real combat. Not a competition. Sorry Naval Group.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

Good on ya, knucklehead. Add New Zealand, China and most of the Australian popular to the list of people angered by this desperate grab at relevance.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

The "Justice League" kids fighting each other??..

Making easier China's path..

-5 ( +7 / -12 )

The EU reaction is being driven by France at losing the submarine contract. Diverting blame to AUKUS hides the reality that Australia has had growing problems with the French contractor, delays in the project and the French were having serious problems trying to convert a nuclear submarine design to a diesel sub. It was over weight and not up to the job. On top of which a diesel sub just doesn’t have the range for the Pacific and is much slower under water and has to come to the surface to recharge, rendering it vulnerable. A nuclear powered sub is more than 3 times faster submerged and can stay down and on patrol only limited by the food supply, usually about 3 months. The French contract was on the way out for some time.

The EU has not been a reliable partner and quite bluntly is not trusted by any US administration or their military.

6 ( +14 / -8 )

Australia is preparing for war ?

With weapon and defense contracts like this one, I just see an escalation in defense or attack capabilities, a rush toward more and more weapon. Countries will never stop pushing for more weapons. Unfortunately, that’s part of the human culture

-1 ( +8 / -9 )

People here were talking about how they were so relieved to have a President that could get along with everyone lol

-4 ( +9 / -13 )

Wake me when a contract is signed, a plan for construction unveiled , real costing revealed.

At this stage its a "plan to have a plan "

I cant see subs being built.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

I understand the French anger but strategic interest tops economic considerations.

The nuclear powered option is superior in terms of acoustic noise and submerged range.

Perhaps the French should be thrown a bone of some sort to partially assuage their dissatisfaction (although I realize that it will still sting).

7 ( +10 / -3 )

When I need to laugh I just read this again and again:

"China reacted angrily, accusing the U.S. and its English-speaking partners of embarking on a project that will destabilize the Pacific to the detriment of global security."

6 ( +11 / -5 )

Well, seems like all of the talk of unity, self-reflection having better relationships with our allies seems like more bloviated political hot air.

-6 ( +6 / -12 )

As a Brit, this is excellent. Not only have we managed to annoy China, but as a bonus we got to annoy the French too!

4 ( +19 / -15 )

If the French don't like it, the EU doesn't like it, and China doesn't like it, you know its a good idea!

9 ( +16 / -7 )

When I need to laugh I just read this again and again:

"China reacted angrily, accusing the U.S. and its English-speaking partners of embarking on a project that will destabilize the Pacific to the detriment of global security."

same. utterly ridiculous

5 ( +12 / -7 )

France apparently wasn't offering up their SNLE 3G or the M51.3 or 4, so Australia chose to go with better: better range, stealthier, faster, more manuaverable, and more apt to survive real combat. Not a competition. Sorry Naval Group.

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

The "Justice League" kids fighting each other??..

Are you angry that Japan is not part of the Superhero Club?

Making easier China's path..

you know the first thing China will do is invade your beloved Japan. You do know that. Right?

1 ( +11 / -10 )

One has to wonder how much indecision, hand wringing and dissembling US diplomats encountered among the European "allies" before finally saying to hades with them and dealing only with UK and Australia?

4 ( +8 / -4 )

not surprisingly Biden has now screwed France and the EU too.

The only thing Biden “built back better” is the Taliban. He is having a huge struggle to meet even the lowered expectations of legitimate world leaders.

-4 ( +11 / -15 )

Finally, some serious push back on China's expansionism.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

A very curious move. Macron was already talking about easing EU sanctions on Russia and this move will probably accelerate that. These submarines won't be built for another 10+ years (if ever) but the diplomatic fallout will be immediate and consequential.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Psychological warfare is the best warfare,you can use on adversary, exploit the psychological weakness of adversary

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Like a few subs are a threat to China

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

Some have compared Biden's recent actions to those of his predecessor, Donald Trump, under Trump's “America First” doctrine.

The French have always made the mistake of summarizing America in a nutshell. Biden may be going at it alone from their perspective, but Biden is definitely not putting America first. To put it terms they can understand: Trump was mayonnaise; Biden’s miracle whip.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Britain is the only country given American nuclear submarine technology and now Australia will receive it. But it could take 10-15 years to see them in service.

French subs are like a salon car when compared to a nuclear sub which is the Rolls Royce.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

The focus of French and E.U anger should be on Australia, rather than the U.K and the U.S. Its ultimately Canberra that made the decision to move away from conventionally powered submarines to nuclear.

Now you could argue that France builds nuclear powered subs too, but what are the chances they would provide that tech to Australia? Whats to say it wasnt requested back in 2015/16 and denied?

Its not just the underlying technology but the timeframe. The sub program is already way behind schedule and thats after years of indecision by the Australian government itself. This decision only puts the program even further behind mind you. Should have just leased or bought subs coming out of the U.K and U.S rather than build our own, that is going to take years and years just get off the ground. Dumb. Again, its all political, this time about local jobs, not hard realities.

The roots of this decision date back 20 years tbh. Its the culimination of 20 years of extremely poor foresight on behalf of Australian politicians and overwhelming lack of action when it comes to the ADF in general.

As an Australian I really, really dont want our relationship with France and the E.U to go backwards. We need to sort something out. There is plenty of tech within the E.U we need to get our hands on - like potentially nuclear power stations, in which France is strong itself, but realistically trains, green steel making. All sorts. Australia really needs to send top heads of government and industry to Europe and make amends. Relying on the U.S is extremely stupid for anything. Im more confident in the U.K

Btw, I am almost certain these will be Astute class subs. There building the last one now in the U.K. It would make sense to continue the program with staff relocation to Adelaid. Already BAE has a big presence down there. Its obvious Boris was up to his neck in it pushing this through. In fact, on the grape vine he played a big role in it.

In terms of China, they really have nothing to worry about. It will be years and years before the first one is even deployed and it will be nothing compared to Chinese designs by then. Plus, no nukes....yet.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Britain is the only country given American nuclear submarine technology and now Australia will receive it. But it could take 10-15 years to see them in service.

French subs are like a salon car when compared to a nuclear sub which is the Rolls Royce

But they’re more stylish.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

France has been a fair weather friend at best.

History ignores France's treachery during the American Civil War, when arms were traded for cotton with the Confederacy, and Napoleon was trying to cut a deal with the Rebels to get the land lost in the Louisiana Purchase back in exchange for French help fighting the Union.

The USA pretty much ignored France for years. A lot of make nice talks and the gift of the Statue of Liberty and all that was quietly forgotten.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

I would like to know more about this controversy.

I have read that there have been tremendous strides in improvement to diesel powered submarines, but can they run silently, underwater, for six months at a time?

Can French nuclear submarines compare to their American counterparts?

If Australia needed help, how likely is France to come to their aid?

It would not surprise me if French diesel submarines are better than American, since the US does not rely on that technology, but is that really what is important?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Tokyo and Taipei love this agreement, according to the FT, seeing it as an effective counterbalance to communist China.

Which the neocons hate...naturally. I love how the neo-cons these days are so sensitive to the feelings of the French and the EU all the sudden. LOL. Last week, it was central Asian Muslims for whom they poured out their sympathy. Who will be next? The North Koreans?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

A pretty awkward roll out on camera with the 'That Fella Down Under' moment where the president appeared to forget the Australian PM's name.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

France has been a fair weather friend at best.

France is like that friend who is nice but sarcastic to your face and then talks trash about you behind your back.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

The Aussies were attacked by Japan in WWII - they are not so remote as to be out of any conflict. The Pacific is a big pond, so they will go for nuclear-powered. But for Australia, today, this is in great part about jobs, which win votes. They are also bullishly pushing the anti-China stance for populist support.

Older male leaders like buying the latest military hardware. It's political vi@gra.

The US won't share their tech with the French. Being an ally only gets you so far.

The UK are up for anything with a few quid in it.

It will be years before anything launches. China has more pressing concerns.

Having prevented WWIII for over 70 years, globalisation is now being wound down. Military hardware may be a good investment going forward.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@JeffLee

Which the neocons hate...naturally. I love how the neo-cons these days are so sensitive to the feelings of the French and the EU all the sudden. LOL. Last week, it was central Asian Muslims for whom they poured out their sympathy. Who will be next? The North Koreans?

Can you explain this? It seems backwards. Why do you think the neocons hate this deal and why would they be sensitive to France and the EU? Which neo-cons have said anything negative about the nuclear sub deal or in support of France? If anything, the neo-cons are loving this new alliance that cuts out the EU. The Europeans aren't interested in backing the American neo-con push against China.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

If your choice is a French made sub vs. an American made sub, why would you want the French one?

I prefer Italian subs myself... mmmm, salami!

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

It's clear that Australia has completed the transformation from a vassal state of the British Empire to that of the U.S. Empire.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Having prevented WWIII for over 70 years, globalisation is now being wound down. Military hardware may be a good investment going forward.

Ha, military investment has been good for many many years. Where have you been? Unless you’re being rhetorical, then yeah, the dictator of xhina will have to be dealt with sooner or later.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Having prevented WWIII for over 70 years, globalisation is now being wound down. Military hardware may be a good investment going forward.

wow mods! I saw nothing off topic about his post. You guys are really robots controlled by either your emotions or a globalist editor.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

The French in reality wanted out. It does not matter who get the contract for the subs they are going to face huge problems. First requirement is the subs to be built in Australia and Australian steel used. Big problem when it come to the outer shell when there is not one steel mills in Australia that can produce the combination of sheet size and steel type need to fabricate this type of outer shell. If an Australian Government allows these subs to be built outside Australia they be voted out of office and left as an ineffective opposition for years. So I really think it's all geo politics propaganda aimed at China and these sub will never be built.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Trump insults Europe and NATO, then cozies up to Putin, and the Trump supporters go: "Yes! We're finally standing up to Europe - those weak free-riders who do nothing for their own security. Screw 'em!".....

Biden makes the Europeans angry by elevating US, UK, and Aussie defense ties: "Look at Biden insult our European allies and friends! How could he treat them like this! It's so unfair! We love the French!"....

Welcome to MAGA-world...

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

France has been a fair weather friend at best.

There were several occasions during the war in Afghanistan when the US Navy was stretched thin that France sent their Charles de Gaulle around to the North Arabian Sea so a French Navy air wing could run airstrikes in Afghanistan, relieving a hard working US carrier and her air wing for six months. Their forces have also been fighting hard in Africa to stop AQ and Daesh affiliates in places like Chad among others.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@Michael Machida

So the US-UK-AUS (and others) were roundly beaten by the Taliban and sent home in total disarray.

Now these three anglo geniuses want to take on China?

That makes me laugh.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Like a few subs are a threat to China

Western submarines are the most dangerous threat the PLAN faces, especially US and British nuclear powered subs and Japans outstanding DE boats. I have even heard western military pilots kind of shrug their shoulders and comment to the effect that there won't be that much left for them to shoot at after the submarines get done with them.

Those man made islands? They are all probably less than a half hour from destruction from Tomahawks loaded on all the US and British SSNs, and presumably the Aussie boats too. The Korean boats have their own home grown equivalent to Tomahawk. US and British subs can make things pretty unpleasant for the Chinese.

Imagine what a British SSN could do hanging out at one of the entrances to the Suez Canal sinking Chinese owned container ships. Or another hanging out at the entrance to the Straits of Malacca doing the same thing. They could bring commerce from China to a standstill.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Guess the Aussies decided diesel boats weren’t gonna cut it anymore?

regarding France/EU, have been trying to come up with some nice thing to say about Biden’s handling of this all morning…

still working on that

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

France mulling compensation claim as Australia pulls out of submarine contract worth billions, favoring UK & US partners:

To be compensated? Too bad, Paris, betrayed by Canberra?

Blame yourself, France, you are in no position to be compared with mighty US military prowess.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

News that France is "outraged" makes my day. Nothing is more enjoyable than upsetting Mssr Macron.

My mate in the UK said he would love to see the Aussies name the first of their nuclear-powered subs, the "HMAS Waterloo" or the "HMAS Crécy".

And to my mates in France: Quel dommage.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Sacré bleu! France’s foreign minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, toys flying in all directions.

Staggering from a stab in the back.

Le Drian must have seen this coming, the deal is a poison pill, a real stinker.

Why Australia wanted out of its French submarine deal

https://www.politico.eu/article/why-australia-wanted-out-of-its-french-sub-deal/

Joe Biden pulled the rug from under the whole deal. EU commission are furious.

I don't believe Joe Biden administration trusts EU member states, Germany, to fully support his China policy.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Western submarines are the most dangerous threat the PLAN faces

exactly!

yeah, nuke subs are used only as a threat. Is it necessary? I’d say no! Land invasion is the only option.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

I like Australia, and I like France. I like nuclear-powered submarines, and I like diesel-powered submarines. I've not said anything to upset anyone, but watch the down votes. It's the teenagers paid by the GOP.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

France will lose a nearly $100 billion deal to build diesel submarines for Australia under the terms of the new AUKUS initiative, which will see the U.S. and Britain help Canberra construct nuclear-powered ones.

We can condense the main outrage to the above.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Trump insults Europe and NATO,

No, he just told Europe and NATO what they needed to hear.

then cozies up to Putin, and the Trump supporters go: "Yes! We're finally standing up to Europe - those weak free-riders who do nothing for their own security. Screw 'em!".....

Wrong, more left talking points, he offered the Europeans cheaper natural gas, wanted to make it cheaper for them minus the threats and bullying from Russia, but never made the move, and now with this admin and their war on fossil fuel, I doubt we can send electricity over to them.

Biden makes the Europeans angry by elevating US, UK, and Aussie defense ties: "Look at Biden insult our European allies and friends! How could he treat them like this! It's so unfair! We love the French!"....

Oh, as always, taking things way, way out of context.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

And now Australia has upset the Indonesians with this submarine plan.

Australia's Liberal led Government should buy a world map and see where they live....it's in Asia...next to the worlds largest Muslim population and a coming economic growth that will outstrip Australia.

Should learn to get along with people.....the Chinese rhetoric is directed as much to a domestic audience as it is to outsiders.

Plus read some history on China....they are right to be a tad tetchy with Europe and colonial thinking.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

The conservative claimed Biden was weak when it came to China and the military.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

No one has to blame for French Naval Group lost the its contract and confident from Australia Government.

The Franch Naval Group was dishonestly and unfairly beating it rival Japan and Germany Submarine Company in Submarine construction tender.

The Franch Naval Group didn't have any idea about how it will fulfill its contract promise when it was chose as winner. So, after 5 years the Naval Group didn't finish drawing the plan and the budget has blown out from 40 billions to 90 billions and maintainece cost estimate over 145 billions dollars for 12 Submarine.

If the disgraced PM Michael Turnbull Government was chose Japan or Germany and than first Submarine will be serving in Royal Australian Navy.

If the we are in business deal and then we will call the Naval Group as time waster. The France Naval Group has wasted Australia Navy's 5 year precious time.

The French Government and its Naval Group owe apology to the Australian tax payers and Royal Australia Navy for wasted times and wasted couple of billions dollars (perhaps, more billions) Australian tax payers' money.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

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