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Biden: Israel free to set own course on Iran

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With the US backing Israel financially and militarily, the US is considered an accomplice in the war crimes Israel has committed and whichever further ones it "chooses" to.

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The sooner Iran's nuclear facilities are leveled the better. Islamic nations must never be allowed to possess nuclear weapons. What a mistake letting Pakistan get them.

sabi: the US is considered an accomplice in the war crimes Israel has committed

I guess that makes Obama a war criminal. :-D

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Israel is entirely responsible for its own actions. No one else. It does not seem to care about international reaction to anything it does. Nor does it observe UN resolutions. It is silly to say the US is equally responsible or an accomplice. The US acts for the common world good. Israel only acts for the sole benefit of Israel and those it seeks to attract there.

sabiwabi and Helter Skelter. Are you guys nuts?

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The US acts for the common world good.

The US sometimes acts for the common world good. In this case, I don't think that US indifference--or at least non-interference--to an Israeli attack is for the common world good. I think we should declare that we see no need for an attack and that an Israeli attack would be "unhelpful".

The US did not act for the common world good when it refused to take a hard line against the establishment of settlements in territory that the Israelis seized in 1967. In fact, "the world"--at least as measured by a General Assembly vote--pretty much agreed that this was not good. The settlements, their growth and expansion hve been one cause of continuing mischief.

The US, as does every other country, acts in its own interests. To its credit it is guided by a belief that it has nothing to fear from a "free and democratic" world and that such a society would be as good for the world as it would be for the US. Unfortunately this belief is at war with the desire to be invincible.

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So the US is willing to let Israel off the leash. Israel attacks Iran (knocking out its "peaceful" nuclear facilities) with the net result that Middle Eastern attitudes to Israel take a turn for the worse.

Not the best course of action. If the US wants to take Iran to the mat over its behavior, surely there are other options rather than letting Israel run amok (with all the geopolitical baggage that entails). Furthermore, Biden should uphold the traditional role of the US VP. Namely, be seen rather than heard.

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timorborder: surely there are other options

List them.

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SezWho? Israel must know what it is doing. Surely they would not move half the world's 14 million population of Jews to Israel in recent decades and call on the rest to come to this small arid "promised land" while being publicly belligerent to its increasingly smarter and organized near neighbors, thus putting 7 plus million Israeli's at risk, unless they thought they were safe. Yes, I know they have been wiped out in Israel on many occasions in the distant past, the last being 70AD but the Arab world has to learn to take whatever Israel serves up, Remember the the 1940's holocaust. Chosen by God, as was their land of Israel for them and a bit more, their indiscretions therefore should be overlooked. Okay so they flattened thousands of homes in neighboring Lebanon two years ago and recently 14,000 homes in Gaza, they were a bit over enthusiastic. The have to plan for the future. If the 11 million US citizens entitled to move to Israel under Israeli law did, they have to house them somewhere; wouldn't they? Virtually the whole Jewish Russian population has shifted to Israel over the past 20 years, why not the US ones. Yes, it places pressure on scarce potable water supplies and residential land so whats wrong with just taking a little bit of the West Bank, and next year some more. Are you suggesting that crowding all these Jewish connected people into this tiny arid stretch of land is not the wish of God? If Iran fails to get on with its neighbors, and seeks nuclear power, obviously God would call on Israel to do something about it.

If I was an Israeli, I would be careful indeed in 2009. The world is changing. The Arab world will not operate for ever as a dis-organized self interested poorly armed rabble as they did in 1948. I would be suggesting a different, more circumspect and conciliatory course and send the Jewish settlers somewhere else, and just use Israel for a holiday and to be entombed in as they did 100 years ago. Bravado is just a word.

Moderator: Please stop giving us history lessons on these threads. You are to focus your comments on what is in the story.

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Israel is entirely responsible for its own actions. No one else.

No, the US knows full well what Israel has done, and they continue to protect and support it. The US is not equally responsible, but they definitely do share a significant part of it.

This might help explain Biden's views:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAZmO80dLfE

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The US is already the blame for what Israel might potentially do. Wonders never cease.

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What is the story? Israel behaving as though it has a divine right to start WW111. Its current behavior is a replica of its last 69 years of aggression against anyone who stands in its way. If it had clean hands until now, the thread of my argument would be different. I don't want to see anyone suffer from what is no more than cultural idealogy and outrageous population growth in an area that cannot support it. The culture has a long, long history of self inflicted destruction. There are 6.5 billion other people battling to survive on this planet, not provoking battles with their neighbors.

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69 years of aggression against anyone who stands in its way." I don't see how you can say that. I see them trying to claim world domination. Instead, I see them sitting a some little desert getting sunburns. The 67 border issue is a result of a fail invasion against them.

There are 6.5 billion other people battling to survive on this planet, not provoking battles with their neighbors." Neighbor is usually a word associated with friends. Can you say that Israel's neighbors have been hospitable? I don't recall a welcome mat for the Jews.

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Goddamit! Obama and Bidet are crazy! Their policies are leading us to WWIII. The USA makes the choice about whether Iran is ba danger not Israel.

I knew this would happen when these biffoons were elected.

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DickMorris: This has been going on for as long as I can remember, what makes now so different?

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Brunobear,

I don't quite get your point. It seems like you're trying to speak kind of tongue-in-cheek at times and then at times not. Whatever, it's not quite working for me.

I don't think that Israel should be moving unilaterally against Iran. I don't think the US should profess indifference to a unilateral strike. And I don't think that the US always works for the common world good, and certainly not so in its support of Israel.

Those were my points. Could you say yours more directly?

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As much as I don't want the spread of nuclear weapons, the fact is the nuclear gate is now wide open and the nuclear horse well and truly bolted. I would prefer Iran not to have nuclear weapons as chosen by my country, Australia, which has had the ability to produce them since the nineteen fifties, but chose not to. Iran is a sovereign State too, just like Russia, the US, Britain, France, China, Pakistan, India and Israel, all whose chose to stockpile nuclear weapons, two in the tens of thousands. It won't be long before numerous countries have them. Then perhaps every country will be too scared to show aggression.

The young people of Iran will gradually bring it into the secular twenty-first century if just left alone to do it. The person who will most inspire them to do so, is President Barak Obama. A man for the young people of the world. The best orator America has produced.

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brunobear: Your post looks interesting, but I am not sure if I follow. You post reads as though the fault lies completely on Israel as though they were merely immigrating and that there were welcome mats and they have overstayed their welcome. I've been there and I have met Israeli's who can trace their families back a number of generations, thus there were always Jews there, thus they should not be considered immigrants, as well as we either decide we are for or against those who seek independence. If that is so, you should start throwing your support behind Latino s, and native Americans. having met people who claim to have family on both sides of the issue tell things differently than you and Sabi. But this is really not about Israel and the Palestinians, its about Iran sticking their noses into a situation. Either population is quite far from their borders. If we are talking about Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc. than you and Sabi may have a case. this issue about the ruling powers of Iran in their Jew hating quest. Talk to any Jew from Iran, of course most are either living in Los Angeles or Israel. Of course they are going to push Israel to a point where Israel must strike first, but that is a strategy that seems to work best on the international stage at this time.

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skipthesong: Yes, I was talking tongue in cheek in that comment. Sorry to confuse you!

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Sorry to confuse you!" don't worry, the whole issue is confusing. Perhaps its best to just leave it alone and sit back and watch!

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This is a case of the US/Biden talking out one mouth (telling Iran that we don't suppoprt their nuclear ambitions) and US/Biden trying to stay close to Israel.

I'd like to see that the $30Billion military funds that bush gave Israel retracted. They want to attack Iran, use your own funds, not US.

Both countries have their wrongs and neither country needs support to attack the other. < :-)

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"Perhaps its best to just leave it alone and sit back and watch!"

That's been the plan for the last sixty years, hasn't it?

Israel attacking Iran would end up in all out war I would imagine, a war neither countries can afford to fight. I guess we're going to have to hold our breath whilst Iran inevitably gets nukes...

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The US provides enough military and economic aid that we have some voice with respect to Israeli policies. So far little use seems to have been made of this. But at some point Israel will act without US approval.

As far as the UN goes they are even more impotent than the Euro area so I don't expect any help there.

An irresponsible regime with nukes is a very bad thing. NK has proven that. But the problem with nukes is once you have them what do you do with them? Any attack by NK, Iran, whomever, would likely be met with overwhelming retaliation. What then? Why would you take that step?

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Nice work, Joe. Love the timing. And Obama was trying so hard to be all hands-off.

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I have a hard time seeing the Israeli's asking permission from the US to attack Iran's nuclear facilities, especially under the governance of Netanyahu.

They nipped something in the bud in weaker Syria, but I really can't see them starting a war with Iran - something we'd probably get dragged into.

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When the second most powerful person in the world starts giving his approval to Israel to break international law, it leaves only one choice for Iran...give up the peaceful civilian nuclear progam and hurry up and make bombs. Giving some to Hezbollah and Syria would keep the radical Zionist state at bay.

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"whilst Iran inevitably gets nukes"

On President Barack Obama's watch?

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Possibly, sarge. I suppose the airheads shrieking from the fringe right are hoping to blame this on Obama, though methinks Dunya's disaster in Iraq spurred Iranian nuclear ambitions along somewhat....

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Great post Sarge, i agree. As usual putting the Liberals in their place. Tee Hee!

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And what has Obama done? What has Biden done?

Sarge at 12:45 AM JST - 7th July "whilst Iran inevitably gets nukes"

On President Barack Obama's watch?

What has happened on Obama's watch?

DickMorris at 03:09 AM JST - 7th July Great post Sarge, i agree. As usual putting the Liberals in their place. Tee Hee!

What's putting Liberals in their place? You'll have to do much better than that. < :-)

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Israel "has a history" of disproportionate actions or responses for perceived self advantage. When they reach the insane point of being unable to resist the temptation to use one on a neighbor, because they always have to go that bit too far, there will be a retaliatory nuclear response from its enemy (within the Islamic world) at some point thereafter. That is the "promise land" promise that has been consistently delivered on Israel over the past 5,000 years and will inevitably follow. Then the matter of Israel will be tragically be just history again. The world will survive from a few nuclear bombs with little impact on the rest of us. It should make front page headlines in the press. Someone will build a museum on the bomb sites. Prayers will be said. The dogs will bark and the wagon will move on.

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Israel "has a history" of disproportionate actions or responses for perceived self advantage" That may have something to due with the disproportion support for her enemies. No? They have always been surrounded by enemies without the slightest glimmer of hope in terms of peace.

Me personally thinks that the only promise they have their annihilation. how many times have people tried that? Can you name a people that have suffered more than Jews throughout history?

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When they reach the insane point of being unable to resist the temptation to use one on a neighbor

It seems you have not had time to check any maps of the Middle East. If Israel were to use a nuclear weapon on a 'neighbor' they would essentially be using it on themselves. That is unless Israel has a new secret nuclear weapon-proof bubble that covers the whole country. BTW, a 'few nuclear bombs' in the Middle East would certainly have more than 'little impact' on the rest of the world. Where do you think a lot of the oil and petroleum you use and the products (such as the plastic computer you are typing on) that are made from it comes from?

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I don't want anybody hurt, and I mean anybody.

Don't think for one minute that a psychotic emotional national leader will hesitate to drop a nuclear bomb on a neighbor if conditions suit. Reason has long gone out the door by this point. I appreciate "history" is banned on JT, so read up yourself for example on Hilters's plan to kill off everybody in Poland, Ukraine etc., and fill the place with Germans. But people should never been held accountable for the actions or proposed actions. We just talk about the latest insane tit for tat.

skipethong: Why is it that the large Jewish and Islamic Arab communities live in peace, prosper, go to the football together, and choose not to live in enclaves? All people on earth a valuable, very valuable!

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Brunobear,

Serious question. Do you actually read what you write before you post?

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so read up yourself for example on Hilters's plan to kill off everybody in Poland, Ukraine etc.,

However, he did not plan to kill off Aryans as well. A nuclear weapon (Do you seriously know what they are and what they can do?), would affect Israel almost as much as any neighbor. Israeli leaders have no interest in dying that I can see...

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If Israel were to use a nuclear weapon on a 'neighbor' they would essentially be using it on themselves.

Unless they use it in, for example, the US so that Iran would get blamed and become pulverized by the US. Israel is the master of false flags.

Israeli leaders have no interest in dying that I can see...

Usually, when the crap hits the fan, the leaders are usually not in Israel (eg, when they attacked Lebanon a few years ago). I don't even believe NettedYahoo's family lives in Israel.

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Unless they use it in, for example, the US so that Iran would get blamed and become pulverized by the US.

Oh! I see! The fantasy game! Let me play...or if they use it on the moon and the moon crashes into the earth, the spacemen will be blamed!

Israel is the master of false flags.

Actually, it is you that is the master of false flags.

Usually, when the crap hits the fan, the leaders are usually not in Israel (eg, when they attacked Lebanon a few years ago).

Heh, so all the leaders leave Israel every time Israel is involved in any conflict...Wow, so wrong it is amazing.

I don't even believe NettedYahoo's family lives in Israel.

The man himself lives in Israel, as does his family. You know, they have something called the internet on which you can find such things out.

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The man himself lives in Israel, as does his family. You know, they have something called the internet on which you can find such things out.

Well until you kindly provide a link for such things, I'll go with my source that his family lives (spends most of its time) abroad.

Moderator: This line of discussion is irrelevant. Back on topic please.

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I'll go with my source

Yes, I am aware of your sources that suggest things like the moon landing didn't happen. As I said, fantasy...

Anyway, each country is free to pursue their own paths and other countries are free to agree or disagree with those paths. This goes for both Iran and Israel.

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Its one thing to disagree with the path of another country, its a completely different thing to attack that country using baseless claims as an excuse.

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Its one thing to disagree with the path of another country, its a completely different thing to attack that country using baseless claims as an excuse.

Yes, the two things are completely different. However I don't think it would matter to you whether the charges were baseless or not as I am sure you would support a nuclear armed Iran. So your point is rather mute as far as your opinion about the claims being baseless goes.

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