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Biden comes out swinging in testy debate with Ryan

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Uncle Joe delivers! Paul Ryan owned like a child!

5 ( +17 / -12 )

U.S. ambassador to Paris had a Marines detachment while Stevens, in restive Libya, did not

Wasnt the Libyans were very very 'gratitues' at America's liberation while the French has strong European nationalism and anti Americanism? Yes,send a battalion of marines to moscow and Beijiang, next topic !

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

Now, that was a much better debate than the last one.

(They had to answer actual questions and stuff!!)

8 ( +12 / -4 )

Ryan said:

I don't see how a person can separate their public life from their private life, from their faith.

A VP debate should focus on the main candidate on the ticket, that of the president. Romney is a Mormon. Perhaps this is an area into which he should not have ventured.

14 ( +19 / -5 )

Ryan was asked if Romney/Ryan would overturn Roe v Wade, and this was his response:

We don't think that unelected judges should make this decision.

Ah, yes: Constitutional issues should rest with the legislative branch, just as the founding fathers envisioned.

10 ( +13 / -3 )

Considerably better than the last debate. Biden came out a lot stronger than I thought he would and Ryan met him head on. Lot of focus on foreign policy, that's not a bad thing but I figured there would be more economics and tax related questions.

I don't think this will change the race all that much considering both VP candidates made a strong showing but it was definitely worth watching.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

This one is cute. When Ryan attempted to defend his economic plan and argued it was possible to cut tax rates by 20 percent without eliminating deductions and loopholes for middle-class taxpayers, including the mortgage interest deduction, Biden argued that this was "not mathematically possible," while Ryan argued that Kennedy had done so:

BIDEN: It has never been done before. RYAN: It's been done a couple of times. BIDEN: It has never been done before. RYAN: Jack Kennedy lowered tax rates and increased growth. Ronald Reagan -- BIDEN: Oh, now you're Jack Kennedy. RYAN: Ronald Reagan -- BIDEN: This is amazing. RYAN: Republicans and Democrats have worked together on this. I understand you guys aren't used to bipartisan deals.

Democrats "aren't used to bipartisan deals" - what planet does this guy live on?

9 ( +13 / -4 )

Laguna:

Democrats "aren't used to bipartisan deals" - what planet does this guy live on?

The planet where Obama told the Republican congress "I won" when they tried to submit their ideas.

The planet where Pelosi and Reid shut out all Republican submissions to the health-care reform legislative process.

-14 ( +6 / -20 )

LagunaOct. 12, 2012 - 11:57AM JST : A VP debate should focus on the main candidate on the ticket, that of the president. Romney is a Mormon. Perhaps this is an area into which he should not have ventured.

Didn't Obama say the country was not a Christian nation? A few days ago USAToday wrote an article on religion.

Survey finds 19% without religious affiliation @ http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-07-19/no-religion-affiliation/56344976/1

Americans Now Say Gov't Should Not Favor Any Set of Values @ http://www.gallup.com/poll/157958/americans-say-gov-not-favor-set-values.aspx

Romney being a Mormon is a non-issue.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

The only remarkable part was the closing comments. Ryan closed the sale.

-12 ( +5 / -17 )

TheQuestion:

Biden came out a lot stronger than I thought he would and Ryan met him head on.

I figured Biden would act like that.

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

Uncle Joe delivers! Paul Ryan owned like a child!

Rofl

-15 ( +4 / -19 )

Biden resembles Red Skelton, remember him? Or maybe George Carlin, except he was funny.

-11 ( +4 / -15 )

Herve:

The only remarkable part was the closing comments. Ryan closed the sale.

Yes, his closing remarks were much stronger. And the "moderator" didn't cut him off for once!

Biden resembles Red Skelton, remember him? Or maybe George Carlin, except he was funny.

I was thinking more like Walter, Jeff Dunham's puppet. Or maybe Nick Nolte on a bad day. Or Jack Nicholson when he's about to get out the five-iron for all the wrong reasons.

-13 ( +2 / -15 )

Biden showed his cranky old man side.

-5 ( +6 / -11 )

" Uncle Joe delivers! Paul Ryan owned like a child!" Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !

-4 ( +8 / -12 )

As I said on the other thread:

I've watched a lot of debates since '72, and this "moderator" is the most blatant Leftist hack I think I've ever seen. Neither she nor Biden will let Ryan finish a sentence, she lets Biden ramble on, she uses DNC talking points, and then she changes the subject every time Ryan gains ground. It's a joke. Still, Ryan's doing pretty good for having to debate two people (who won't let him finish a sentence) at the same time.

-12 ( +6 / -18 )

Well, Biden managed to avoid any serious gaffes, but -

"his constant quirky smirking and guffaws on a split screen while the earnest Ryan gave his answers"

This definitely lowered my opinion of Biden.

So, Biden failed to deliver a knockout blow. It's up to Obama now!

-2 ( +8 / -10 )

Yes, Biden's facial expressions reminded me of Gore's repetitive sighing in his debate with Bush.

-9 ( +7 / -16 )

Obama, who watched the debate aboard Air Force One, told reporters he “could not be prouder” of Biden and his strong advocacy of the middle class.

The only problem is, when Obama and Biden say "middle class" , what they really mean is "labor unions".

Biden warned that if Romney and Ryan were elected, they would choose a Supreme Court justice that would be sure to oppose the right to terminate a pregnancy.

Gee, Republican presidents have supposedly been doing that for five presidential terms since Roe v Wade became law, and yet it still stands. And since the possibility of a case challenging Roe v Wade before the Supreme Court is highly unlikely, it's really a non-issue. A moot point. A red herring to incite fundamentalists on both sides of the political aisle.

-5 ( +7 / -12 )

I'm generally a conservative man, not on all issues, but some. What I witnessed tonight was Biden making effective arguments to most if not all of his Ryan's claims. Also, Ryan was focusing too much on blaming the administration, it is necessary and makes sense for him to do so to a sizable amount, but he did it far too much and too often. I would say the Biden won this one by a margin, even though Joe got a little angry at some points.

7 ( +13 / -6 )

I thought I was done posting for the night, but stumbled across this and had to share.

From Greg Gutfeld: "Biden is the drunk at the bar; Martha is the unhappy bartender, and Ryan is the unfortunate salesman caught in the middle."

-6 ( +6 / -12 )

Yes, his closing remarks were much stronger.

Ha ha - if your ears are attuned to the tea party dog whistles, perhaps you would think so! Biden:

And we will not try to replace our founding principles. We will reapply our founding principles.

Yes - our current president abhors our founding principles, unlike us not-born-in-Kenya guys! Also, we don't think that unelected judges should decide on constitutional issues when we don't agree with them!

1 ( +6 / -5 )

"Biden resembles Red Skelton, remember him? Or maybe George Carlin, except he was funny."

There is probably no clearer admission that your guy took the brunt of it than when you resort to ad hominem attacks on the other guy. Thanks for that.

I think Biden did pretty well with Ryan too. While I don't really think it was appropriate for Biden to eye-roll as much as he did in a nationally televised debate, I can certain appreciate his frustration at having to seriously entertain Ryan's stumbling efforts to cram round pegs into square holes and expect Biden to accept it all with a deferent smile.

That's the difference between someone who has years of experience to back up his arguments versus a relatively young man test driving the idea of being a statesman. When Ryan has to (incorrectly) invoke the names of Kennedy and Reagan, the respective patron saints of Liberals and Conservatives everywhere in order to cover his bases on a poorly supported premise -- e.g., "cut taxes and watch the revenue roll in" -- then it's pretty much a given Ryan realizes he's in over his head on this.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

Ryan said:

I don't see how a person can separate their public life from their private life, from their faith.

So I guess that means that, on any given day, Mittens will be making decisions based on how his magic underwear feels. Nice. Etch-A-Sketch and Eddie Munster, we have some lovely parting gifts for you. Thanks for playing.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

I was thinking more like Walter, Jeff Dunham's puppet.

@ OldHawk: You are correct on that one! He did have the mannerisms of Walter.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

I thought Biden had the better of this one.

He was a bit snippy at points, but he was often authoritative and projected experience. This is especially important, since the candidates were again waging a battle of mutually exclusive facts and dueling narratives.

Ryan had a few good lines, but I found many of his answers to be lacking in substance. The portion where the moderator asked him repeatedly for specifics on his budget plan and he refused to give anything at all was a fairly brutal.

I will reiterate, this was a much format than the Presidential Debate, with candidates speaking to each other and the moderator rather than to the audience, and having to answer real questions with important implications for the future of the country. I hope the hosts of the second Presidential debate were taking notes.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

The only remarkable part was the closing comments. Ryan closed the sale.

No offense, but something tells me you made your purchase some time ago.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

and this "moderator" is the most blatant Leftist hack I think I've ever seen.

I have to agree with this assessment. Ryan did his best, and if I would fault him, it would be not to interject to the moderator about letting him finish. But he did take the high road on some of it. I imagine that the pundits on the right will make mention of the moderator, while those on the left will give her praises. But what I really think it shows that the Dems got owned in the first debate, and they had a little help from the moderator in the second to help them on style points. I think that they are misreading the American people. People really got a chance to see Mitt Romney and saw that he wasn't some "boogey man" and started to see some of the liberal bias in the media. I think that this moderator may help show to some that bias.

Overall, I think it was a decent debate, that actually let the candidates speak and not so much just spout of talking points.

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

Biden was frequently gurning and acting like a fool. Getting old and senile, methinks.

-10 ( +4 / -14 )

But his constant quirky smirking and guffaws on a split screen when the earnest Ryan, 42, gave his answers risked distracting millions of television viewers watching at home,

I see the Biden and the Democrats are once again practicing "civility".

-5 ( +6 / -11 )

A good moderator, in my opinion, challenges assertions and forces participants to answer - rather than evade - questions. This is one of the reasons I prefer listening to British journalists, who routinely challenge what their guests say, as opposed to Americans ones who usually just stand there like a doormat and allow their guests to spout talking points and ignore direct questions. I notice, however, that American politicians and spokespeople, who are apparently not used to having their assertions challenged, often take umbrage at this, and assume the journalist is against them.

I didn't feel the moderator was biased tonight; I suggest to you that, if Ryan was interrupted more frequently than Biden, it may have been because A) his answers were more evasive and less substantive and B) he tended to speak longer (at least, this is what Biden alleged, snippily, at several points in the debate...)

5 ( +9 / -4 )

People really got a chance to see Mitt Romney and saw that he wasn't some "boogey man" ....

That may be true; what they did NOT get to see in the first debate was the yawning vacuousness that is the Romney economic plan. Obama never called Romney on it; Biden did call Ryan on it, and if you were not smirking at Ryan's frantic dance of evasion, I guess you never smirk.

To his credit, Ryan may have clarified a tad the chasm between his numbers and objective reality - how, for instance, Romney may cut taxes 20% across the board, recover the funds by eliminating loopholes, and by doing so lower taxes on the middle class but not raising them on the upper, all why not adding to the deficit; or how "traditional medicare" can be ensured by a voucher specifically not tied to medical inflation (and these are just two examples) -

I don't see how a person can separate their public life from their private life, from their faith.

As a Catholic, Ryan believes in miracles. Miraculous math will solve the above dilemma, or so his lack of specifics would lead one to believe. Call it the "Immaculate Budget Reconciliation."

Otherwise, he offered nothing.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

There's nothing wrong with the moderation here... Ryan was cut-off half the time because he was avoiding the questions asked of him, as is the typical Republican tactic. It's simply amazing that Romney and Ryan are leading the blind so blindly, saying they'll, "figure out the details later".

So Biden made a few quirky faces and rolled his eyes a few times -- big deal. At least he provided some substance to his plans, and gave facts instead of the fictions Ryan kept rolling out to avoid the issues.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

There's nothing wrong with the moderation here.

Maybe not, but one does have to ask the question based on some pretty disturbing facts that might impugn on her true objectivity.

With ABC News’ Senior Foreign Affairs Correspondent Martha Raddatz selected to moderate the 2012 Vice Presidential debate, it should be noted that Obama attended her wedding back in 1991 and her now ex-husband, Julius Genachowski, was picked by Obama to chair the Federal Communications Commission.

http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2012/10/10/barack-obama-was-cordially-invited-to-martha-raddatzs-wedding/

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

Nearly as relevant as Obama's ties to terrorists, Sail.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

But his constant quirky smirking and guffaws on a split screen when the earnest Ryan, 42, gave his answers risked distracting millions of television viewers watching at home, I see the Biden and the Democrats are once again practicing "civility".

I found this off-putting as well. I was a bit surprised, too, as I expected that, after the flack Obama took for his bearing during the first debate, Biden would have been more controlled.

It has been suggested, however, and after some contemplation I agree, that this was very much calculated.After the last debate, Biden needed to aggressively challenge the Romney/Ryan narrative - challenging evasions, misrepresentations, and reversals of position. That was part of it. But I think Biden's demeanor was specifically meant to telegraph to the audience that Ryan was not to be taken seriously. I'm not sure if the targets for this message were undecideds the campaign meant to sway, disheartened liberals who needed to be fired-up, or both. (I suspect the latter will be very pleased with the performance, though I wonder if the former will be as receptive - or will they find it disrespectful and off-putting..? Joe certainly skirted the line, at the minimum.)

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Nearly as relevant as Obama's ties to terrorists, Sail.

Madverts,

If Obama had attended a known terrorists wedding, I'm pretty sure that would also raise some eyebrows.

I'm not stating the the Moddie had an overt bias. I am saying in light of the fact that she has less than an objective history regarding her relationship with the future President, that recusing herself and letting someone else handle the job would have been much more appropriate in this case. It isn't as if there aren't plenty of other reporters out there that could also do the job in her stead.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Biden: I always say what I mean

So, he meant what he said about the middle class being buried for the last four years by his administration. You know, I agree with him.

RR

0 ( +8 / -8 )

"It isn't as if there aren't plenty of other reporters out there that could also do the job in her stead."

I call it clutching at straws myself.

Though not as foaming at the mouth as :

"and this "moderator" is the most blatant Leftist hack I think I've ever seen."

1 ( +4 / -3 )

I call it clutching at straws myself.

Though not as foaming at the mouth as :

"and this "moderator" is the most blatant Leftist hack I think I've ever seen."

I call it leaving herself quite wide open to that charge and with some facts that would actually back that assertion up. Hard not to show you don't have a bit of fondness for someone if you invited them to your wedding.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Uncle Joe delivers! Paul Ryan owned like a child!

I don't know what debate you were watching. Ryan was the only adult on that stage tonight. Biden was a child. He interrupted Ryan 82 times. Children need to learn good manners. A man of Biden's age should already know that he is supposed to wait his turn to speak.

RR

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

If there was bias shown by the moderator it should be easy to bring evidence to the table.

Frankly all I can see is that after a brief lull team Obama are back in the chair and it has the hardcore partisans near drowning in their own spittle.

I presume we can take it as read that any poll bump for Obama will now mean the polls are skewed again, as per the usuall deranged Fox "News" conspiracy?

.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

The RNC already has an ad on the Web from the debate showing Biden laughing at the unemployment situation. It'll be running on TV all this weekend during the college and pro football games.

Thanks, Joe. You are without a doubt the best PR guy the republicans have.

RR

-5 ( +5 / -10 )

sailwind: "and her now ex-husband, Julius Genachowski, was picked by Obama to chair the Federal Communications Commission."

So your argument is that there may be bias towards the Democrats because Obama hired the woman's EX-husband?? Tell me which part of that does not seem a little odd.

Either way, you guys are just looking for excuses, it sounds to me.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

LFRA, there's a difference between argumentum ad hominem and an observation;

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or unrelated belief of the person supporting it.[1]Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy,[2][3][4] more precisely an informal fallacy and an irrelevance.

While you may have misinterpreted the comment as ad hominem, that would be incorrect.

Triumviere, Ryan's closing statement was well-spoken and may have closed the sale for some swing voters. Personally, I'm not buying what either side is selling.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

You caught us red-handed sailwind. You must be a great detective. You're right, the VP debates had nothing to do with the campaigns, the debate was there for the sole purpose of making you the victim. Yep, it's one of the most elaborate conspiracy this side of the JFK murder. You've got Biden and Obama giving the orders and the mainstream media acting as a sounding board.

All of that, just to pick on poor sailwind.

It must be difficult to live a life where you are always the victim. You're Charlie Brown and the whole world (except for Sarah Palin) is Lucy Van Pelt and we've once again pulled the football away at the last second.

I'm truly sorry you are such a victim. Victimized by the president. Victimized by the VP. Victimized by the debate moderator. Victimized by the main street media. Victimized because Sarah Palin isn't the VP. Whew, it's got to be tough being the world's biggest victim.

I'll have a candlelight vigil for you. Cho kawai so.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Ryan gave intelligent, even-tempered responses, while Biden came off as boorish and condescending...

His Jack Skellington grin was seasonally appropriate.

I thought the mod might attempt to chide Biden, for his continual interruptions, but instead she too followed suit.

Eloquent and Focused, or Loutish and Rude...

Tough call.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

After watching the debate replay on C-SPAN, I found Biden laughing while talking about the killings in Libya was incredibly distasteful.

If Team Obama thinks the demeanor that Biden displayed tonight will fire up the independents to vote for the democrat ticket, they are in real trouble.

RR

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Joe Biden has lived for almost 70 years and still has never learned good manners, like not interrupting people when it's their turn to speak.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

the jerk tonight wasn't Biden for laughing at Ryan. the jerk is Ryan for straight up lying to the American people over and over.

4 ( +9 / -5 )

"the jerk is Ryan for straight up lying to the American people over and over"

What lies did Ryan tell, specifically?

Biden is going to laugh his way right out of the vice president's office.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

I never realized Republicans were such fragile little flowers. Poor, sweet little things; I understand how you might have been frightened by firm utterances of a man with convictions and little patience for those professing whimsies they do not believe simply in an attempt to bamboozle.

Still, you will likely have another four years in the wilderness to stiffen your backbone. Seriously: this is the party of Cheney and Rove et. al.? Pitiful.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Biden definitely has better teeth though.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

RomeoRamen. Here is what a poll from CBS, who surveyed self-identified uncommitted voters. They offered a different take than yours, with 50 percent saying Biden won compared to 31 percent who gave the night to Ryan. Nearly 1 in 5 said they felt it was too close to call. On the other hand, CNN did a poll and the results were that Ryan won, but because of a three point of uncertainty, statistically, it wasn't significant.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2012/10/11/vp_debate_polls_insta_polls_show_split_decision_in_vp_debate.html

Now I already know you are going to complain that CBS and CNN blatantly pander to the left. Much like your good buddy, Sailwind, it's all done in order victimize you.

Is there a single conservative on this site who DOESN'T play the victim card at every turn? JT should do a poll on it (of course, said poll would be just another liberal conspiracy to victimize Ramen and Sailwind, so you have to take that into account.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Biden did a helluva job. He exhibited experience, integrity, sharpness, and a genuine dedication to stick up for working people. He gave Ryan a pie in the face because Ryan and the GOP deserve it. They've manipulated (and even encouraged) the financial crisis to get rid of Obama. They've inundated the American public with repeated and inane accusations of communism, fascism, Islamism, Kenyan anti-colonialism, hatred of country --all to get rid of Obama. They've outright lied to get rid of Obama.

Democrats have been too polite in their discourse with the radical and Machiavellian fringe that has taken over the GOP, and I applaud Biden putting boy wonder Ryan on the hotplate.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

What happened to the usual liberals today, usually we have a full house, like 10 to 1, but now, I just hear crickets. Trust me, had Ryan fumbled and Biden would have won, all the liberal moon bats would have been throwing up with glee and with all the tingles and bells and whistles. Too funny.

Clearly, Biden was a jerk, he had to really reign himself in from being his usual idiotic self. The moderator WAS bias, no doubt about it. As I heard, it was Gallup that put this together, they are known to be a bit bias, but they should have at least had a more middle of the road moderator. She is an Obama supporter from what I heard, so go figure.

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

Hayden: "Is there a single conservative on this site who DOESN'T play the victim card at every turn?"

Yes.

Is there a single liberal on this site who isn't condescending?

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

So your argument is that there may be bias towards the Democrats because Obama hired the woman's EX-husband??

My argument is that she may have a bias because she has had a personal relationship with Barack Obama going all the back to 1991 when he attended her wedding as an her invited guest.

My apologies to you, Madverts and Taka if you think that is just some sort of triviality that should be blithely ignored. Especially for a moderator who is suppose to have no dog in the fight.

On polls, since that seems to the yelling point of late. The polls have been skewed with a D+7 slant. The polls have been based on voter turn-out projections based on the 2008 election which at that time was a D+7 advantage for the Democrats in the electorate. Nobody that is sane expects the Democrats to do so well this cycle with turn-out. D+3 is the most excepted assumption. On polls with a D+3 anticipated turn-out model the race is pretty much a tie. Polls on the D+7 turn-out model after re-adjusting down to a D+3 or unskewing it reflects the same thing pretty much a tie. The Media was touting polls based on the D+7 model to show Obama leading, I guess pointing out the underlying poll assumptions and voter turn-out model wasn't realistic was something really bad on part.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Still, Ryan got lucky. The so-called "deficit hawk" was not called once on what plans he might have to reduce the deficit. Romney's much-ballyhooed tax simplification plan is nifty and all if they can keep it revenue-neutral and don't skew progressiveness in the tax code, but the Ryan of the past would have rightly termed it rearranging the chairs on the Titanic: if it is purposed to be revenue-neutral, how do he and Romney propose to balance the budget?

Clearly, a Romney presidency would see made permanent the Bush tax cuts (themselves a shameless act of fiscal impropriety: they were designed to vanish after ten years precisely to allow Bush to show a long-term rosy fiscal scenario, yet - surprise! - look what the GOP has engineered: calling adhering to what Bush himself instituted a "tax hike"). A Romney presidency would also increase defense spending. Either Ryan's budget-hawkery will display itself miraculously at some later date or it has been a sham all along. If you believe the former, I have a non-specific, pie-in-the-sky spouting ticket to sell you.

There is no doubt that a Romney presidency would be a return to GOP presidencies as usual, so succinctly defined by Cheney himself: "Deficits don't matter." Choke on that, tea partiers.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@Plastic

Do you actually believe that most people agree with what you just said? Even if you are an Obama supporter. Your analyzation of the what happened today is so faaaaaar off, I know you don't believe that. If you do, then you are in a vertigo universe. Biden got creamed He exhibited rudeness, acted condescending, got flustered and started laughing and being very cynical (that's why he was giggling a lot) If you watch around 11:00 min. Biden was talking crap that the economy was getting better. At that point he was getting annoyed, Ryan was calm threw the unemployment rate in Wisconsin in his hometown, gently and effectively and confidently. Biden is a loose canon. Biden is sticking up for the PRESIDENT, let's be clear on that. Of course they want to get rid of Obama as they should. By the way, Talk about lying: Obama lied about what happened in Benghazi, lied about the unemployment rate falling from 8.1% to 7.8% in one month, just before an election....hmmmm..lied about cronyism, lied about all the Green Jobs that went under, the cost of Medicare, raising taxes and funding abortions in Mexico with tax payer funds and on and on... Yes, Obama is an honest man. ROFL Again, maybe you need to watch the debate again. Biden was the one that lost his cool a few times, Ryan knew how to play the crowd, he just let Biden be his usual numbskull self and it worked that's why the majority of the papers say that Ryan faired far batter than Biden and by looking at the polls, Biden didn't hit a home run.

-8 ( +2 / -10 )

"Ryan got lucky. The so-called "deficit hawk" was not called once on what plans he might have to reduce the deficit"

Yeah, Biden sure was remiss on that one, lol. But Romney and Ryan believe growing the economy by empowering private business is the answer, as opposed to Obama and Biden, who believe growing the government is the answer.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

@Serrano

Sorry, but keeping the government small increasing the revenue by empowering small business encouraging spending from products and goods as opposed to increasing the government and creating an entitlement culture debt, borrowing from China has never been the answer, study after study has shown that.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

I notice Ryan had the class to thank Biden for the "honor to engage in this critical debate," while Biden declined to acknowledge Ryan in their closing remarks.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

@bass4funk

Nyuk nyuk nyuk!

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Biden declined to acknowledge Ryan in their closing remarks.

Nothing new, Biden just being his typical self, NOW had he done the opposite, that would have been headline news.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

OldHawkOct. 12, 2012 - 12:55PM JST

As I said on the other thread:

I've watched a lot of debates since '72, and this "moderator" is the most blatant Leftist hack I think I've ever seen. Neither she nor Biden will let Ryan finish a sentence,

Ryan wasn't answering the questions, so the moderator moderated and had him answer. Maybe you've never seen that before? Of course though anything not understood is a leftist conspiracy. Like math and science too I guess

4 ( +6 / -2 )

If Obama and Biden are re-elected, this is going to suck worse than anything that has ever sucked in the history of sucking.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

@Serrano

Despite my trendy tree-hugging Euro- leftiness I agree with you 100%.

The only thing that would suck more would be Romney and Ryan being elected.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@luca

Why? Because they want to cut the entitlement culture that is running rampant in this country?

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

@bass

Obama lied about what happened in Benghazi, lied about the unemployment rate falling from 8.1% to 7.8% in one month, just before an election....hmmmm..lied about cronyism, lied about all the Green Jobs that went under, the cost of Medicare, raising taxes and funding abortions in Mexico with tax payer funds and on and on...

Yup. Them's all facts. I checked 'em up on Townhall.com.

She is an Obama supporter from what I heard, so go figure.

From what I heard, Ryan is a policy wunderkind, but I don't believe everything I hear.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@bass

Your analyzation of the what happened today is so faaaaaar off, I know you don't believe that. If you do, then you are in a vertigo universe.

My analyzation is that Biden's aggressiveness was necessary and appropriate in the defense of the fine tradition of liberalism. Sometimes you gotta hit back when faced with injustice, especially when it comes at you in the form of Paul Ryan. And I take umbrage at your insinuation that I inhabit a vertigo universe.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Triumvere:

A good moderator, in my opinion, challenges assertions and forces participants to answer - rather than evade - questions.

If only that trait is equally applied to both participants. Which clearly wasn't the case here. Biden danced around the first question and any other question he wanted to.

It's funny to y'all project and accuse us on the right of playing "the victim card". Especially when it's the Left that has made a career of exploiting victims for political gain (welfare, anyone?). I'm not playing victim, and I'm not claiming there was a conspiracy. The moderator is a Leftist. It's a mindset, no conspiracy is needed. It's an ingrained behavior that is demonstrated time and again by members of the media, posters on JT, etc. Although, there was an actual conspiracy during the previous election by over 400 members of the media. It was called Journolist.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

plasticmonkey:

Biden did a helluva job. He exhibited experience, integrity, sharpness, and a genuine dedication to stick up for working people.

That must be why his administration is actively promoting SNAP (food stamp) enrollment through English and Spanish ads.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

@OldHawk

The moderator is a Leftist. It's a mindset, no conspiracy is needed. It's an ingrained behavior that is demonstrated time and again by members of the media, posters on JT, etc.

So some people are liberal because it's a mindset that gets ingrained, and not a conspiracy. Agree with you there. That is true of a conservative bent as well.

Although, there was an actual conspiracy during the previous election by over 400 members of the media. It was called Journolist.

Actually? And they're the ones who got Obama elected? I bet they ingrained lots of mindsets and leftist behaviors in people that made them think Obama was the Chosen One.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Simply put, Biden delivered the kind of performance that thrilled Democrats like me and enraged the Republicans I sat next to at the Conference Bar, who were torn between blaming Martha Raddatz and the expressions on Joe Biden's face.

But as amusing as the GOP's spin may be, it doesn't matter.

Democrats wanted a strong performance from Joe Biden, and We got it. Fired up and ready to go!

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Meh, Biden still very much reminds me of an old drunk Uncle. I don't find rudeness (and odd facial grimaces) to be endearing and a necessary goal to win debate, but that 's me.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

OldHawk,

Most journalists in the US lean left to a lesser or greater degree. Do you want to rule them all out based on potential bias? You want to establish a litmus test? Or do you want to go back to doormat moderators who do nothing and let candidates spout talking points unchallenged? Undoubtedly, out biases color our perceptions to an extent. That is a consequence of being human. May I suggest to you that it is impossible to get a moderator who is 100% "fair."? May I also suggest to you that your perception of how "fair" the moderator was is colored by your own biases?

"Equality" of treatment is not the same as equal time. False equivalence is rife in the industry, where journalists hold off asking hard question and making assessments as to what is true and what isn't so that they can appear to be "fair" and "balanced" to both sides of the aisle. When one side offers a cogent argument and the other BS, that is a nonsensical approach, but one that is taken to avoid the sort of criticisms you are leveling.

Various fact checking organizations have put forth that, while both sides lie, the Romney/Ryan ticket does so with increased frequency. I myself felt that Ryan's answers were, on the whole, more evasive and less substantive than Biden's. It would seem to me that alone would justify greater interruption of Ryan than of Biden. The spending cut exchange was a great example of this - Ryan simply refused to answer a question that was put to him point blank, and when called on it refused to answer a second time. I don't recall seeing similar behavior from Biden. (You mentioned the "first question" - I didn't tune in until several minutes into the debate, so perhaps he was evasive there?)

If you evade the questions you should expect to get called on it. If you provide hollow, empty answers and talking points, you should expect to get called on it. If you do more of these things than your opponent, you should expect to get called on it more than your opponent, especially if the moderator is being "fair."

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Hey Serrano! Great to see you!! You wrotee:

When Obama and Biden win, "this is going to suck worse than anything that has ever sucked in the history of sucking."

I couldn't agree more. But, you may not want to put it that way. See, I'm a manly kind of man, and well, it just looks like you know a wee bit too much about sucking....well, you see what I'm saying.

Anyways, don't give up yet! Obama hasn't won yet. An Asteroid could hit the earth, and we know how that worked out for the 1st Black American President. Not well. That movie bombed!

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Sailwind,

"My apologies to you, Madverts and Taka if you think that is just some sort of triviality that should be blithely ignored. Especially for a moderator who is suppose to have no dog in the fight."

Having watched the whole debate, I call you out once again on this thread to either show this bias you claim, desist, or be relegated to Sarah Palin style nonensense. Remember now, Biden didn't get an invite to the wedding. Put your money where you mouth is Sailwind, or play the victim "media in the tank" card preferred these days by the losing team.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Besides all that, the No 2 man doesn't hold his finger on the button now, does he? I'd rather have my no. 1 man bring his A game then my No 2 man - seen as something of a buffoon anyway, bring his. In fact, I don't think the polls show him as the runaway fave. He did better than his boss (who wouldn't do better than the community organizer without his teleprompter - I did better in my 8th grade English speech) but it wasn't the knock-out some of you liberals seem to be desperately grasping for.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

"While you may have misinterpreted the comment as ad hominem, that would be incorrect."

Nothing was misinterpreted at all. Your attempt to deflect criticism of your candidate with poorly executed humor was blatant and obvious. Man up and admit it.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Saildwind

All your whining about them librul bias only helps us Democrats. Biden wooped him some Republican ass. And you have only Ryan and your despicable party to blame. Not the moderator. Not Biden.

You lost. Boo hoo,

2 ( +3 / -1 )

It's funny to y'all project and accuse us on the right of playing "the victim card". Especially when it's the Left that has made a career of exploiting victims for political gain (welfare, anyone?).

Let me flip that one around and send it back to you:

The Right has been shrieking about it's victimization for years now: "the media is biased against us, the Left is waging a "war on religion," the Academic elite looks down on us, Barack Obama hates white people, etc... etc..." It has rebuilt its party platform around a populism which exploits the fears of predominantly older, white males who are anxious about the advancing tides of social and demographic change sweeping this country. And all the while, the Right has derided the left for its penchant creating and exploiting categorizes of victimization.

The criticism of the Left is a legitimate one. That's what makes the Right's continual, strident protestations of victimhood to be so enormously ironic.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Sf2K

"Ryan wasn't answering the questions, so the moderator moderated and had him answer. Maybe you've never seen that before? Of course though anything not understood is a leftist conspiracy. Like math and science too I guess"

Heh.

Excellent.

Terrorism, war and famine be damned, your average blinkered Romney voter seems more at war with science and arithmetic.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Uncle Joe delivers! Paul Ryan owned like a child!

After watching the debate, and reading this, all I can say is, which debate were you watching? Personally, I would say they came off tied, except for Bidens creepy behavior. Watching the split screen, of Biden smirking while Ryan is giving a serious response, its hard to categorize this as anything but a win for Ryan.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Exactly - to be honest I missed most of it. To read the postings by the drooling libs on here one would think that old smokin joe biden came out with glove raised in a grand style knockout. To read most news stories - and even from some of the liberal press - it was pretty much a dead even tie. ABC says split decision, a CNN poll has it as Ryan - 48% and Biden - 44%, a very shotty sounding NBC poll has Biden winning with undecided voters - but the poll was done early after and polled less than 500 people - how can any poll with that number be considered even minutely accurate.

I think what is happening is that Biden is such a loud-mouthed clown who so often sticks his foot in it, that liberals were so afraid that if he stuck his foot in it this time it could really spell disaster, particularly after the boss man screwed the pooch on his. But old Joe stuck it out and did okay (hey, even my drunken uncle had his days) and the relief of disaster avoided is such that they must claim overwhelming victory.

It's all good, we have a few more to go.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

of Biden smirking while Ryan is giving a serious response

You know, I talked about Biden's condescending and ungentlemanly behavior upstream and my distaste for it. I think it was calculated to belittle Ryan and maybe rattle him. I don't think that worked (though it did help to challenge some of Ryans more misleading statements, which was important).

Ryan was, for the most part, calm, collected, and professional, which spoke well of him. However, there was one major exception which I don't think anyone has mentioned thus far, and that was that absolutely awful, ugly and utterly preposterous line about Biden line about Biden supporting forced abortions in China.

I couldn't believe it; my jaw literally dropped when he said that. That was totally below the belt and utterly unfair - politics at its worst... far worse than Biden's snippy, rude conduct, in my opinion. I really, really hope that Ryan doesn't get a pass on that one.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Tiger,

"To read the postings by the drooling libs"

Obviously these "libs" are either in your head or in another debating circle as I can't see them.

But since you mention it, here's the greatest hits from the extremists on this site/reality. If you can point out which "libs" here are laying into Mr Ryan on a similar scale I'd appreciate you pointing them out. Thanks:

" But it is safe to assume they have trained him excessively with exactly the questions that Obamas moderator-buddy Raddatz will be asking, and she will of course do her best to help him, so he will probably do OK. Remember, the media are an extension of the Obama campaign." - williB

"Old Joe may be a basket case"

or

"Clearly, Biden was a jerk, he had to really reign himself in from being his usual idiotic self." - Bass

"Biden was frequently gurning and acting like a fool. Getting old and senile, methinks." - AKB Fan

"Biden came off sounding like a patronizing, condescending... escaped mental patient. But then he often sounds like an escaped mental patient."

or

"And is it just me, or does Biden come off looking like an old alcoholic?"

or "this "moderator" is the most blatant Leftist hack I think I've ever seen"

Enlighten me please, Tiger.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Sorry Tiger, the last three quotes were "Old Hawk".

0 ( +0 / -0 )

a"nd that was that absolutely awful, ugly and utterly preposterous line about Biden supporting forced abortions in China."

I winced at that too.

That's the shame about men like Ryan. Intelligent and charismatic - but the extremist agenda effaces all the smarts in one fell swoop.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Exactly - to be honest I missed most of it.

Go back and watch it. Partisans will nearly always say their guy won (or at least that the other guy didn't); the best thing is to go to the source and make your own assessment.

Personally, my best, most objective assessment would be this:

1) There was no knockout punch. Both candidates presented well overall. Biden was experienced and authoritative, but also disrespectful of his opponent. Ryan was calm and collected, but his responses were less substantive than would be desirable. 2) "Joe the Clown" was, despite Democratic fears and Republican hopes, not present. Instead, you got veteran senator and Vice-President Biden, who came out swinging. He aggressively challenged his opponents narrative in a way Obama was unwilling or able to do in the previous debate. 3) Overall, Biden was on the offensive, and Ryan on the defensive, reacting to his opponent. That isn't where you want to be in a debate. While we might argue about whether Biden's behavior crossed the line, the combination of aggression and substance make Joe the winner here - and that is how it is likely to be spun in the media (que right-wing protestations of media bias!) 4) Liberals will be overjoyed with Biden's performance. They felt that Obama's fault in the last debate was a failure to aggressively challenge what they see as his opponents lies and misrepresentations. Conservatives will feel disrespected by what they see as Biden's childish and condescending behavior. Both bases will be fired up by this, but the effect will be much greater for the Liberals, who desperately needed a win here. How this will play with the undecideds, however, is unclear to me. 5) Again, dueling narratives and mutually exclusive facts. Which side you believed is dependent on what you believed when you came in. If you came in not knowing who to believe, then I think Biden's more authoritative tone and aggressive challenging of his opponent's narrative would have been the more persuasive.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Well Mad, let's see.....

"Uncle Joe delivers! Paul Ryan owned like a child!"

"Biden did a helluva job. He gave Ryan a pie in the face because Ryan and the GOP deserve it."

"Simply put, Biden delivered the kind of performance that thrilled Democrats like me and enraged the Republicans "

But you've called me on this and I have to own up. I'm reading several different forums right now, and on one the liberals are going wild in saying old Joe won the day. My bad in that I confused that with this one, which isn't surprising since JT usually has a ton of liberals nattering on about blaming bush for everything. Your correct though, the tone here is more as it should be - points to that fact that crazy old Joe is a rude old man. My apologies.

But on that note, partisan politics aside - for those of you that are Dems and will vote for Obama, doesn't the idea of Biden becoming President in some emergency scare the bejeezus out of you? I mean I'm conservative, and back in the day the idea of Dan Quayle becoming Prez had me worried. And the idea of that dope Palin likewise made me shudder. But doesn't the prospect of someone as baffoonish as Joe Biden taking over the most important office (arguably) on the planet put the fear of god in you a bit?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

So Who Won??I had to run down to the drugstore & buy me some PoliGrip after seeing that Old Guy showin' off his Grill!

0 ( +1 / -1 )

idea of Biden becoming President in some emergency scare the bejeezus out of you?

Which Biden, "Joe the Clown" or the one who showed up to the debate last night?

We have an unfortunate tendency to pick, shall we say, less than qualified VP candidates here in the US. I'm not sure why... we don't seem to take the office seriously. Otherwise, we would never had Quayle or Palin. Perhaps its some form of insurance against domestic assassination? (Don't shoot me or you end up with this dude in the Whitehouse... )

In all seriousness, while I wouldn't be my first pick for the office, the VP's shortcomings are on the "embarrassing behavior" side, rather than on the competence side. The man has some real steel in him, and he can step up to the plate when he needs too. So no, I'm not terrified of a President Biden. I don't think he possesses the same level of intelligence and acumen as Obama, but I think he could perform adequately if called to. More than adequately perhaps; I have a feeling that the man is probably underestimated by the public, myself included.

I would rather a President Biden than a President Gore (who's self-righteous self-assurance is undeserved, In my opinion), a President Quayle (god help us), or a President Cheney (actually competent, but misguided to the point of Nixon-esque folly). More than anything else, I would have been terrified at the prospect of a President Palin (utterly unserious and unqualified)... Ironically, had McCain been elected, that scenario would have been far more likely than any of the others... (a fact which undoubtedly sunk McCain's leaking ship of a campaign once and for all. Honestly, I have real difficulty listening to criticism of Biden's competence from people who enthusiastically endorsed Mrs. Palin.)

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The pesky polls that Whiney Republicans were against before they were for are in:

Several snap polls were held just after the debate. The OverTheShoulder.com poll showed Biden won the debate 65% to 35%. The CBS/GfK poll of uncomitted voters gave Biden a clear victory of 50% to 31%. However, a CNN/ORC poll of people who watched the debate (not all of whom were necessarily even voters) gave Ryan a slight edge 48% to 44%

I guess that means, by Etch-A-Sketch logic, they are against them again. That two flips to one flop. That's not balance.

Anyways, here's what happened, and here why the Republicans are whining. Again:

In 2008, Biden had to be very polite with Sarah Palin, lest he offend women by attacking her. He had no such constraints this time and he hit Ryan over and over. When Ryan said he was against the stimulus, Biden pointed out that the administration received two letters from Ryan personally asking for funds for Wisconsin companies. When Ryan criticized Obama on Iran, Obama asked Ryan to name one thing Romney would actually do differently, and Ryan couldn't. When Ryan said that his voucher program would save Medicare, Biden looked directly into the camera and said: "Who do you trust on this?" When Ryan made the mistake of mentioning President Kennedy, Biden shot back: "So, now you're Jack Kennedy?"

Ryan was pretty much playing defense the whole time.

Biden DOMININATED. And the polls show it.

Cue Republican Whining.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Ryan looked like a fool coming back with "after the matter" statements. Biden caught Ryan evading answers to questions that everyone wants to know.

On the American dime the face is Franklin D. Roosevelt or FDR. His words of warning about the current Republican party holds true today.

http://www.upworthy.com/these-words-of-warning-from-fdr-still-ring-eerily-true-today?g=2&c=upw1

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Which Biden, "Joe the Clown" or the one who showed up to the debate last night?

The Biden who just wipped your Gomer Pyle looking fool.

Yeah, that one.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@JTD

All your whining about them librul bias only helps us Democrats. Biden wooped him some Republican ass. And you have only Ryan and your despicable party to blame. Not the moderator. Not Biden.

You lost. Boo hoo,

ROFL, what fantasy world do you live in? You got it mixed up, buddy, sorry, while Biden held his own, he was very disrespectful, condescending, smug and that makes a person look very bad and brutish. Ryan was extremely calm and collected and good for him. We all knew Biden was going to be his typical headstrong self. I don't know what polls you are reading, Daily Kos or ThinkProgress, but I would advise you to put it down and come back to the real world. Biden didn't win anything except for being...well, Biden.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

Well Mad, the last two add to my list stating that Biden was the hands up champ. JTDan, if you go by all of the polls (and I always mistrust them all - not a new thing) Biden wasn't a clear winner, was he, but more like an even joust. But you can pretty much shop around on either side and find polls to support your cause.

As for Ryan being against the stimulus (which was a proven waste of time/money) yet asking for funds. Well, let's put it this way: as a politician (a congressman) you might think a policy is plain stupid, but if you don't take advantage of available funds to at least try to stem the flood, you'd be seen as a fool and wouldn't get re-elected. It's like a rich liberal congressman being against tax cuts for the rich, but utilizing said tax cuts because, well there they are. As for the Jack Kennedy comment, you guy need to get over the whole Kennedy thing. Firstly, the democratic party does not hold 'exclusive rights' on ever mentioning JFK. Secondly, despite being practically martyred because of assassination, Camelot wasn't quite as gushingly stellar as liberals love to claim. Remember things like the Cuban Missile Crisis, Bay of Pigs fiasco, beginnings of the Vietnam War, spread of communism. Granted, these issues were simmering when he arrived on scene, but the point is that the tragic death of a young President tends to gloss over the rough parts. The fine family man had the other Kennedy curse of not being able to keep it in his trousers. Point being that the old 'your not Jack Kennedy' thing gets old. Frankly I'd be quite glad that I'm not thank you very much.

I'm sorry, is that whining? Or is that truth?

Sorry boys, but I just haven't seen the awesomness of old Joe that seems to be so clear to you. I find him crass and embarrassing.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Neither of the two even have the basic comprehension of foreign relations to understand that US Marines can only provide security on the embassy grounds which is technically US territory. The attack occurred at a consulate where only civilian security can be used. Which ever side wins the Secret service better do a good job protecting #1.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Tiger,

"Your correct though, the tone here is more as it should be - points to that fact that crazy old Joe is a rude old man. My apologies."

From this part on I must surely doubt your sincerity of the earlier comments. It's pretty obvious some people on the radical left are over-playing Joe Biden's performance, they needed it let's face it, after Obama's initial flop. But even the radical left aren't aiming anywhere near the kind of character assassination compared to the quotes I posted from the extreme right, earlier here in this debate, are they?

"As for Ryan being against the stimulus (which was a proven waste of time/money) yet asking for funds. Well, let's put it this way: as a politician (a congressman) you might think a policy is plain stupid, but if you don't take advantage of available funds to at least try to stem the flood"

C'mon, he opposed it but went on to demand and then use funds? Isn't that like turning in the neighbour for murder after you've removed the cash in the wallet of the victim?

Since the mid-terms of 2010, the Republican policy in opposition has been little more than "My way or suicide" - any issue they can politicize.....that's not in the countries' best interest to me, it's a Neanderthal and damaging way of thinking.

Whatever happened to policy that spilled over American shores being taboo in a US election anyway? The political mileage Romney has used on the back of dead Americans recently has been pretty shameful.....

And then, I'm sure Obama will pull the rabbit out of the hat. It's expected of him after the first performance. If he doesn't take Romney seriously, which I don't think he has until now, then he may well lose to the "unelectable" candidate. I'm predicting entertainment for the next one......

2 ( +2 / -0 )

You got it mixed up, buddy, sorry...blah blah, Dkos polls, bla blab blurb reality.. zipadee doo da day

Waa haa haaa haaa. Here are your polls:

Several snap polls were held just after the debate. The OverTheShoulder.com poll showed Biden won the debate 65% to 35%. The CBS/GfK poll of uncomitted voters gave Biden a clear victory of 50% to 31%. However, a CNN/ORC poll of people who watched the debate (not all of whom were necessarily even voters) gave Ryan a slight edge 48% to 44%.

But that ain't the real reason why we all know Biden Wooped Some Serious Gomer Pyle Butt. How do we know?

'Cause you Republicans are whining. Again.

So here the Republican four stages of grief

Lie Denial -- Ain't Just a River in Egypt Whine Lose Whine Some More
1 ( +1 / -0 )

TigermothII

Thanks for your post. BIden Won. The polls support that because

We Dems are fired up and ready to go. That was his main objective, and Joe did it. Undecideds broke for Joe. In a big way. That is nice, but not as important as 1 The Republicans are whining. Again. This time is that BIden was a meany. That he laughed. Oh no, where are my pearls!

Hell yeah Biden laughed during the debate. Y'know why? Because the Romney-Ryan plan is literally laughable on its face. Claiming you're going to make a $5 trillion tax cut without getting rid of vital middle class deductions like those for mortgage interest and the like doesn't pass the straight face test.

It's comical. It violates basic principles of arithmetic. It's a joke.

Republicans are used to lying their butts off, and when someone calls on it, whine their asses off.

And that is why they are whining their asses off today.

Good thing We Democrats don't take our cues from a bunch of whining liars.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

NORMANATOROct. 12, 2012 - 02:57PM JST : So I guess that means that, on any given day, Mittens will be making decisions based on how his magic underwear feels. Nice. Etch-A-Sketch and Eddie Munster, we have some lovely parting gifts for you. Thanks for playing.

A person of principle would make decisions base on them. A person without principle would do whatever it takes to win.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Madverts

No one that I am aware of is overplaying Biden's ass-whooping. Don't know about these 'radicals' to whom you refer. Bottom line is Biden stomped. And we know that, cause the Republicans are whining.

They whine when they lose.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

JTDanManOct. 13, 2012 - 01:25AM JST : The Biden who just wipped your Gomer Pyle looking fool. Yeah, that one.

If anyone who acts like that in an interview he or she would never get the job. Nothing to be proud of.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

C'mon, he opposed it but went on to demand and then use funds? Isn't that like turning in the neighbour for murder after you've removed the cash in the wallet of the victim?

To be fair, when you are in the game, sometimes you have to play. It's a double bind. Ryan doesn't support the stimulus, but if everyone else gets a piece of the pie, can he really deny his constituents their share?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

TriumvereOct. 12, 2012 - 11:28PM JST : Most journalists in the US lean left to a lesser or greater degree. Do you want to rule them all out based on potential bias? You want to establish a litmus test? Or do you want to go back to doormat moderators who do nothing and let candidates spout talking points unchallenged? Undoubtedly, out biases color our perceptions to an extent. That is a consequence of being human. May I suggest to you that it is impossible to get a moderator who is 100% "fair."? May I also suggest to you that your perception of how "fair" the moderator was is colored by your own biases?

What's the difference in regards to the mainstream media leaning to the left and a state run press?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Who cares if Biden looked like a grouchy old man that interfered and rebuttled every reponse Ryan made. Biden carried a big stick. Biden asked Ryan about the specifics of what he would do in Syria. What it amounted to was that Ryan does not have anything specifics other than what the current administration is doing. It looks like Ryan looks like a unseasoned politician trying to convince his experienced grandpa. Ryan went to Afganistan few times and made it look like a season travelers there, and Biden countered that he has gone over there over 20 times. Ryan looks to raw and lack toughness.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

skipbeat Oct. 13, 2012 - 03:56AM JST If anyone who acts like that in an interview he or she would never get the job. Nothing to be proud of.

If you turn off your TV and listen to the radio of Biden Ryan debate, Biden carried alot of substance. Also, if you read the excerpt of the debate, he made alot of sense with experience. I really don't trust nice politicans anyway. Biden shows the strength of what he can do.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

sfjp330Oct. 13, 2012 - 04:13AM JST : Who cares if Biden looked like a grouchy old man that interfered and rebuttled every reponse Ryan made. Biden carried a big stick. Biden asked Ryan about the specifics of what he would do in Syria. What it amounted to was that Ryan does not have anything specifics other than what the current administration is doing. It looks like Ryan looks like a unseasoned politician trying to convince his experienced grandpa. Ryan went to Afganistan few times and made it look like a season travelers there, and Biden countered that he has gone over there over 20 times. Ryan looks to raw and lack toughness.

It matters because Biden is the VP of America. He represent the country. Biden failed on Libya when it happened on his watch. Biden is standy by on Syria until after the election. Biden has no credibility when it comes to foreign affair.

Mother of slain State Dep't official is tired of being ignored by Obama Admin @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A3ldyGsZ1Io

0 ( +0 / -0 )

skipbeat Oct. 13, 2012 - 04:56AM JST Biden is standy by on Syria until after the election. Biden has no credibility when it comes to foreign affair.

So what is the Ryan plan on Syria?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

sfjp330Oct. 13, 2012 - 04:56AM JST : If you turn off your TV and listen to the radio of Biden Ryan debate, Biden carried alot of substance. Also, if you read the excerpt of the debate, he made alot of sense with experience. I really don't trust nice politicans anyway. Biden shows the strength of what he can do.

Biden lied about not voting for Afganstan war and the Iraq war. Biden lied about Libya. Biden may have come off better than Ryan if people didn't know the real Biden. People are making judgements base on what the mainstream media is presenting them. If people think that Biden came off better that is because the facts are not being reported by the mainstream media.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

sfjp330Oct. 13, 2012 - 04:13AM JST : Who cares if Biden looked like a grouchy old man that interfered and rebuttled every reponse Ryan made. Biden carried a big stick. Biden asked Ryan about the specifics of what he would do in Syria. What it amounted to was that Ryan does not have anything specifics other than what the current administration is doing. It looks like Ryan looks like a unseasoned politician trying to convince his experienced grandpa. Ryan went to Afganistan few times and made it look like a season travelers there, and Biden countered that he has gone over there over 20 times. Ryan looks to raw and lack toughness.

Biden failed on Libya on his watch. Biden is on standby in regards to Syria until after the election. Biden has no credibility when it comes to foreign affair. For Biden to make those faces and laugh when people die protecting the country goes to show that he lacks compassion and empathy.

It matters to this mother.

Mother of slain State Dep't official is tired of being ignored by Obama Admin @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A3ldyGsZ1Io

0 ( +0 / -0 )

skipbeat Oct. 13, 2012 - 05:08AM JST People are making judgements base on what the mainstream media is presenting them. If people think that Biden came off better that is because the facts are not being reported by the mainstream media.

Problem with this debate is that Ryan let such interruptions largely go unchallenged. Ryan made a decision to let Biden take command of the debate. Biden made a dominance move, and he got away with it. This shows the weakness of Ryan. American public sees this clearly.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

smithinjapanOct. 12, 2012 - 03:59PM JST : There's nothing wrong with the moderation here...

Martha Raddatz ex-husband, Julius Genachowski, is the head of the FCC under Obama.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

What's the difference in regards to the mainstream media leaning to the left and a state run press?

Is this a serious question?

How does a leftward trend in the personal politics of journalists translate into state control of the media? Because we have a Democrat in the White house? Many journalists undoubtedly voted for Obama in 2008 and will again in November. Do you imagine that means Obama gets to tell them what to do?

We can acknowledge that human beings have biases and that those biases color their perceptions. We can also acknowledge that some actors will have and pursue hidden, partisan agendas. We can acknowledge these things without having to throw up our hands and submit to a hyper-partisan, adversarial system. It is possible to put in ethical standards and make commitments to non-partisanship and objectivity. This is how the judicial system works, from the judge's angle. This is how journalism at least used to work. It's the model in operation at institutions like the New York Times (even if they don't always live up to it); to seek the truth first above all else. 100% objectivity is humanly impossible, but it doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't strive toward it

Perhaps that sounds idealistic, but I put to you that the opposite view is less realistic than is is cynical. I want by journalists to admit their biases, confront them, and try to rise above - rather than to embrace them. This is why I despair of Fox News, which seems not to make the effort, intentionally blurring the lines between reporting and advocacy. Quite cynically, I might add - the whole venture seems to be tailored to sell to conservatives who feel, rightly, disserved by the MSM. But the solution should be to try to correct the imbalances in the system, rather than to just tell people what they want to hear as a prelude to taking their cash.

Really, what we need is more conservative journalist working for ideologically neutral news institutions. Part of the problem is definitely one of entrenchment, bias in hiring and promotion, groupthink, etc... But part of problem is deeper - journalism seems to naturally attract more liberals than conservatives: liberals tend to suffer from "do-gooder-ism" and a corresponding distrust of authority (this is a fascinating can of worms I won't get into here ; liberals an conservatives both have complex and internally conflicting relationships with authority, depending how it is expressed...) , even when that authority is a liberal one. Especially in the aftermath of Watergate, liberals see the journalist as a crusading figure who "speaks truth to power" and helps effect social change. Hence the attraction to the field. I don't know of any comparative conservative draw.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Martha Raddatz ex-husband, Julius Genachowski, is the head of the FCC under Obama

Sweet Jesus, skip, are you late to this party...

1 ( +2 / -1 )

sfjp330Oct. 13, 2012 - 05:16AM JST : Problem with this debate is that Ryan let such interruptions largely go unchallenged. Ryan made a decision to let Biden take command of the debate. Biden made a dominance move, and he got away with it. This shows the weakness of Ryan. American public sees this clearly.

Biden was disrespectfully and arrogant . It represent how him and Obama do things in DC. Yet both Biden and Obama blames Bush and the GOP.

Ryan was up against two in this debate. Biden won with the help of the moderator. Again, Biden and Obama won the 2008 election with the help of the mainstream media. The real question is who is running the country? The mainstream media or Biden/OBama or both?

Ryan was a better person than most. Most people would have walked up and left.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Biden lied about not voting for Afganstan war and the Iraq war. Biden lied about Libya. Biden may have come off better than Ryan if people didn't know the real Biden. People are making judgements base on what the mainstream media is presenting them. If people think that Biden came off better that is because the facts are not being reported by the mainstream media.

Dangerous game, Skip. Ryan told quite a few fibs himself (SOFA, unemployment trending up, etc...). I'm not sure that a fact check comparison favors the Republican ticket.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

TriumvereOct. 13, 2012 - 05:31AM JST : Is this a serious question?

Have you ever lived in a country that the state owns the press or in a country that saying negative things about the rulers will land you in trouble?

The mainstream media favor liberalism. The mainstream media favor Biden and Obama. The mainstream media should label themselves liberal. For the mainstream media to say they are sometimes objective and other times lean to the left is misleading their readers and/or viewers.

There's nothing wrong with have a liberal media and a conservative media. The audience of either the liberal media or conservative media have the same values.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

There's nothing wrong with have a liberal media and a conservative media. The audience of either the liberal media or conservative media have the same values.

This is only true so long as those media commit themselves to objectivity. Again, admit bias and strive tor impartiality. I do not believe an adversarial system of journalism would be desirable beyond the opinion page, and even in an adversarial system there are rules that must be followed (just ask any lawyer).

In other words, it isn't good enough for you to have one media and I another. (We already have that to an extent). Unless truth is prioritized, you just end up with a lot of competing noise (we have that too - its called politics...)

0 ( +0 / -0 )

TriumvereOct. 13, 2012 - 05:39AM JST : Dangerous game, Skip. Ryan told quite a few fibs himself (SOFA, unemployment trending up, etc...). I'm not sure that a fact check comparison favors the Republican ticket.

That would depends if the person is a Democrat or a Republican. What type society they want to live in base on what their values are. Facts and truths are relative. Facts and truths are base on one perception of reality.

People should know that Congress is the one that makes laws and passes laws.

If the mainstream media was doing thier job people who watched the VP debate would have known about both candidate. It's odd that the mainstream media comes up with the term "Fact Check."

0 ( +0 / -0 )

TriumvereOct. 13, 2012 - 06:02AM JST " This is only true so long as those media commit themselves to objectivity. Again, admit bias and strive tor impartiality. I do not believe an adversarial system of journalism would be desirable beyond the opinion page, and even in an adversarial system there are rules that must be followed (just ask any lawyer).

Why would they commit themselves to objectivity when they are either a liberal media or a conservative media? Their goal is to promote liberalism or conservativism. Reading conservative news and liberal news comes off very differently.

Who or what is dummy down on society?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Both Biden and Ryan told some big fibs. It comes to style. Do you like Biden or Ryan's style when it comes to the debate?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Both Biden and Ryan told some big fibs. It comes to style. Do you like Biden or Ryan's style when it comes to the debate?

What nonsense.

The question is: Who Won?

And the answer is simple:

Call child services. 'Cause we all just saw an old man wipe the floor with a child.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Biden was disrespectfully and arrogant

Our guy got whipped. Whaaaaa = Looser Whine

Ryan was up against two in this debate. Biden won with the help of the moderator.

Librul lame stream media whine. Plays well in Rushland.

Again, Biden and Obama won the 2008 election with the help of the mainstream media.

HInt: Old whine aint like old wine. It just gets worse with age.

The real question is who is running the country? The mainstream media or Biden/OBama or both?

More of the librul media whine.

Ryan was a better person than most. Most people would have walked up and left.

Moral high ground whine. Translate: loser whine.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Their goal is to promote liberalism or conservativism. Reading conservative news and liberal news comes off very differently.

See, this is what I don't agree with. The point of the media is to provide the audience with objective information, not to "promote" any particular political viewpoint. (Opinion journalism is perfectly fine as long as it is A) done in good faith, and B) separated from factual reporting.) We can learn quite a lot from debate, but it shouldn't be our primary method of getting information.

I news source that works solely to promote a single view point isn't working for me, even if I happen to agree with that viewpoint. Their goal is to convince me of the rightness of their agenda, rather than provide me with the tools I need to make up my own mind. I read multiple news sources precisely to attempt to balance out bias, but there are only so many hours of the day and I am not always as diligent as I should be. As a reader, and as a human being, I feel obligated to be critical and remain open minded. But, I can't do all the heavy lifting myself... that it what editorial oversight is for. Otherwise, why bother with traditional news sources at all? I can get all the opinion I want from the blogosphere...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Facts and truths are relative.

Now we see that the Republican party is really no different than the Communists.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Now we see that the Republican party is really no different than the Communists.

Was this truly necessary?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Triumver

You don't argue with someone who believes, and I quote:

Facts and truths are relative.

No, Facts are facts. The truth is the truth. There is no arguing about that.

Only battle.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Do you like Biden or Ryan's style when it comes to the debate?

My thoughts on the tone and carriage of the debaters are recorded in the comments above.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

So, the answer is "Yes"

Got it?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

JTDanManOct. 13, 2012 - 06:52AM JST : Now we see that the Republican party is really no different than the Communists.

Democrats Boo Inclusion of God, Jerusalem as Capital. @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTlhv5gAzo4

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Skipbest

Is that a fact...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

JTDanMan,

It is not necessarily as easy to separate "facts" and "truth" as you imply. I am no relativist, so I will not dispute that "facts are facts." However, we can only absorb "facts" through the filter of our limited perceptions. Giving the same set of basic "facts" to two different people, and you may get to wildly different analyses of what those facts portend (and all without the assumption of ingenuousness). The dilemma this presents is more complex than you make it seem.

Also, I am not sure the tone of your presentation is a positive addition to the conversation.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Triumvere

There is no dilemma. Republicans are fact free. They just don't care. And that is a fact. Since you forget "We're not going to let our campaign be dictated by fact-checkers."

So much for nunace

As for my presentation: You don't seem to sure about anything.

I am.

Politics is about power. It is not a debating society. It is not for pearl-clutchers. It is about power.

Obama is going to win, and he is going to use the power he has to help America. The Republicans will lose, and that is, objectively, a good thing. Because they will use their power to hurt America.

If you do not understand that, than you don't understand much of anything. And that is, perhaps, why you see nuance where there is none.

Facts are fact, my friend. And the truth is the truth. And even if you do not feel comfortable with that truth, or are unsure of my presentation, rest assurred:

There are lies, and there are the liars who spread those lies. And one does not reason with, or argue against the willful liar.

One does battle against them.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

The problem, if I may, is that it is not sufficient for the media only to provide basic facts of the sort that are indisputable. Rather, we rely on the media for both fact and analysis, and analysis invariably involves judgement, which invariably involve some degree of bias. (Even the reporting of basic facts presents difficulties, as one must use one's judgement as to which facts are relevant and important, and which are not... not to mention the judgement required to determine which facts are true... )

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I think it's pretty funny that conservatives think Joe Biden was rude and mean to poor pitiful Ryan.

Yep, he's real mean guy, alright.

Remember when he told the senator to go fork himself on the floor of the Senate while in session? How about that time he shot his friend in the face and then had to be apologized to by said friend because that guys face happened to get in the way of Cheney's shot.

AND YOU CLOWNS THINK THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH BIDEN?

I knew there are a lot of people who are going to require years of intensive therapy to overcome their victimhood and put their Obama Derangement Syndrome behind them.

The ironic thing is, they'll be begging for Obamacare to take care of the costs of their mental health treatments. This IS the "keep your government hands off my medicare" crowd.

Rhymes with twosers.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

One does battle against them.

Fight fire with fire, eh?

We are going to have to disagree on strategy, then. I'm afraid that your chosen form of advocacy is not the most effective for your cause.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I wonder how many of the conservatives who are saying Joe Biden was mean and rude practically orgasmed when Sarah Palin said, "there you go, Joe."

BALLS - Grow some.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

No fight lies with truth. And the truth hurts.

And, no we don't have to disagree on my contributions. I neither need nor ask for your approval.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Hayden,

You got that right.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Hayden WellstoneOct. 13, 2012 - 07:27AM JST : I wonder how many of the conservatives who are saying Joe Biden was mean and rude practically orgasmed when Sarah Palin said, "there you go, Joe."

Not a fan of Sarah Palin.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Readers, please stay on topic. Sarah Palin is not relevant to this discussion.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

No fight lies with truth. And the truth hurts.

You mistake my meaning. You would use the torch of truth to burn your opponents rather than illuminate. I fear you will end up burning yourself in the process.

I neither need nor ask for your approval.

Certainly not. And a good thing, too, as it is rarely bestowed on radicals or zealots.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Readers, please keep the discussion civil and do not be impolite toward one another.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@JT

Several snap polls were held just after the debate. The OverTheShoulder.com poll showed Biden won the debate 65% to 35%. The CBS/GfK poll of uncomitted voters gave Biden a clear victory of 50% to 31%. However, a CNN/ORC poll of people who watched the debate (not all of whom were necessarily even voters) gave Ryan a slight edge 48% to 44%.

That's NOT what Gallup or Rasmussen or Pew says. Try using polls that have at least credit, merit and are used by the EXPERTS, thank you.

Latest from Pew research http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/10/10/pew-poll-biden-is-viewed-more-unfavorably-than-ryan/

But that ain't the real reason why we all know Biden Wooped Some Serious Gomer Pyle Butt. How do we know?

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/most_recent_podcasts/2012_10/ryan_46_biden_45 People didn't see that

They saw a rude Biden getting bent out of shape, every time the truth poked him in the eye.

'Cause you Republicans are whining. Again.

If you call elated whining, so be it.

So here the Republican four stages of grief aka Democratic Bizarro warped realities.

Lie

Dems have been doing it a lot especially recently.

Denial -- Ain't Just a River in Egypt

Obama and Biden seem to think so, that's why they think their ME policy is just fine.

Whine Bush, Bush, Bush, Romney cheat, Romney cheat, rich, rich, rich, 47%, 47%, 47% If that ain't whining, I sure the heck don't know what is!

Lose Apparently, you have been avoiding the papers and the internet, even the liberal blogs are admitting that the liberals are in serious hot water.

Whine Some More Liberals invented the meaning.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@JT

Now we see that the Republican party is really no different than the Communists.

Had no idea that Repubs believed in income redistribution and huge entitlements.

JT, I feel bad for you, every poll basically call the debate pretty much even and that Biden was very rude and condescending. Now you can see whatever you want to see. Some people believe in ghosts and that's their right. but facts are facts and you can't spin the obvious, Biden didn't beat, whoop etc. It didn't happen, but Biden did smirk, cut Ryan off, rude and looked unprofessional at times, sorry, but this is NOT about being partisan. Take your mind out of the liberal stratosphere, take a deep breath and read the major magazines. The ONLY people that are whining are liberals that know the truth, but just don't want to accept reality. They were both pretty even, but Ryan held his cool that's the main difference.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Obama is winning. And he's gonna win. And I know that must cause you some pain. And even though I despise your politics, I do not wish you any ill will. And so I feel sorry for the pain and discomfort that I know you will experience come this glorious Nov. 6.

And the thing is, not only will Obama win, We Dems are gonna keep the Senate. And it gets worse. It looks like Reid has actually learned his lesson and will change the Senate rules to prevent your party from abusing them and making the Senate a 60 vote needed body. So sad, but there you go. So I do feel for you, my god friend, and hope that does not cause you too much discomfort.

I guess the only thing is you Republicans may hold onto the House. It looked pretty bleak until Obama's fumble last week. And you guys had a good week. But Fightin' Joe ended that.

So the real question is what will happen Tuesday. I hope for your sake Obama doesn't destroy Rmoney, 'cause if he does, then We Dems have a shot at the House. And then the fun really begins!

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@bass4funk

I agree that Biden was condescending at times. Remember that Ryan also cut off Biden once. What determines whether someone wins a debate? Etiquette or Substance? Ryan was a better showman, but Biden clearly had more substance and experience. It was a failure on behalf of the state department when requests were made for reinforcements in Libya and none were sent and Biden could not defend that point. However, throughout most (not all) of the debate Ryan could not justify his positions as well as Biden could. Ryan had a hard time giving specifics on how the Romney-Ryan 20% off tax cuts would work. He was too vague in general whereas Biden came off as an experienced old-timer.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

DantheMan: "The Biden who just wipped your Gomer Pyle looking fool."

Now that is a foolish statement, ha ha!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I think the VP debate proved two things; 1) Biden is a 70 year old jerk with the maturity of a spoiled 15 year old, 2) Biden does will not be truthful about the Obama Administrations record on any subject he is asked (obviously because they have no accomplishments to brag about). Rep. Ryan won the debate because at least he tried to engage in the issues and discuss an alternative future other than the current path to national bankruptcy that Obama-Biden have America on. Biden didn't want a serious debate. He simply wanted to rouse the dispirited Liberal base.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

"Biden clearly had more substance and experience."

Yeah, the wrong kind of substance and experience. I can't imagine anyone, after watching this debate, actually wanting Joe Biden over Paul Ryan to be their vice president.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Madverts:

Though not as foaming at the mouth as : But since you mention it, here's the greatest hits from the extremists on this site/reality.

Twice you've mentioned my comment about the moderator being the most blatant Leftist hack I've ever seen. If you think that comment is inaccurate, perhaps you should tell me of a debate moderator who was more of a blatant Leftist hack than the one from last night.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Triumvere:

Let me flip that one around and send it back to you: The Right has been shrieking about it's victimization for years now: "the media is biased against us

Documented. 93% of media personnel (reporters, anchors, journalists, writers, editors, etc.) have supported and/or donated to Democrat candidates. Want more? Check out mrc.org

the Left is waging a "war on religion,"

It's selective, but it's there. The ACLU, for example. Or as some of my friends on the right once called it, the "Anti-Christian Liberal Union". Or maybe I should refer you to the sitting president, who complained that some Americans "cling bitterly to their guns and their religion". Funny how he's never said that about his (allegedly) fellow Muslims.

the Academic elite looks down on us

You're saying they don't? I would like to see your evidence of that.

Barack Obama hates white people

Eh? I mean sure, Eric Holder probably does. But Obama? He's mostly white himself!

It has rebuilt its party platform around a populism which exploits the fears of predominantly older, white males who are anxious about the advancing tides of social and demographic change sweeping this country.

Hardly. More like anxious about collectivists/Leftists paying people not to work, and paying them to vote Democrat with our tax money.

The criticism of the Left is a legitimate one.

No, it's hypocritical.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Triumvere:

How does a leftward trend in the personal politics of journalists translate into state control of the media?

Chris Mathews, former Carter administration speechwriter, MSNBC host: "My job is to make the Obama presidency successful." http://youtu.be/JFJvlzDpey4

Or perhaps you would like to discuss Leftist darlings MediaMatters working directly with the Obama administration? All while claiming non-partisanship for the sake of tax exemption. (Imagine that, Leftists not paying their fair share...)

I want by journalists to admit their biases, confront them, and try to rise above - rather than to embrace them. This is why I despair of Fox News, which seems not to make the effort, intentionally blurring the lines between reporting and advocacy.

Just Fox News? I think we have found the chink in your facade of independence. ;)

Especially in the aftermath of Watergate, liberals see the journalist as a crusading figure who "speaks truth to power" and helps effect social change.

But only when they can bring down a Republican. The Fast & Furious scandal has been described as "Watergate with over 300 bodies", and yet most of today's media would rather cover an out-of-context Romney "gaffe". This same media personnel made Nick Berg a household name when Bush was president. Quick, what was the name of the ambassador who was killed? And the other three Americans? If you would like more examples, I have many.

Generally, I agree with you about perceptions, bias, and their role in the media. I would also like to see media personnel admit their biases and work towards objectivity. But actually getting them to do so would be a case study in denial. Because they surround themselves with like-minded individuals, both professionally and personally, they truly think they are centrists and are already being objective. That includes posters here on JT. It's readily apparent that some - if not most - think anybody to the right of Arlen Specter is an extremist.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

OldHawk,

The Muslim canard? Really? Who are you writing this for, exactly?

No, it's hypocritical.

Heh. Either you misread me, or you are calling the Right hypocritical.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The Muslim canard? Really? Who are you writing this for, exactly?

I said allegedly. I neither believe he's a Muslim nor care. Just noting his selectivity.

Heh. Either you misread me, or you are calling the Right hypocritical.

Perhaps. It's hard to read this small font at my age. But my point was that it's hypocritical of the Left to claim the right constantly plays the victim card. The DNC voting base is a collection of victim's groups. And trust fund babies. But hey, at least they're "diverse", right? ;)

0 ( +1 / -1 )

JTDanMan:

Claiming you're going to make a $5 trillion tax cut without getting rid of vital middle class deductions like those for mortgage interest and the like doesn't pass the straight face test.

Ryan claimed that he and Romney were going to institute a $5T tax cut? When did he do that?

BTW, Even Stephanie Cutter has admitted the administration has been lying about Romney's tax plan with the $5T talking point. You remember Stephanie Cutter, right? She's the one who relays the talking points issued by the whining-liar-in-chief.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2012/10/06/cutter_okay_fine_weve_been_lying_about_romneys_tax_plan

From the article: FactCheck.org and CNN reviewed Obama's accusation, and found it wanting. "Not true," declared the former organization.

Mirari Hayashi likes to quote FactCheck.org a lot. Maybe she will see that and stop using the talking point now. Will you? I mean, since you're claiming to live by "facts are facts and truth is truth".

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"My job is to make the Obama presidency successful."

There are two ways to read that statement - one partisan, and one not partisan. I think that we, as Americans, have a duty to support whatever administration is in power to a certain extent. None of us - at least not the reasonable among us - wants a sitting president to fail simply because we oppose him politically. (How reasonable we have been of late is open to debate).

A good example here is Romney's unacceptable behavior after the death of Ambassador to Libya. The administration, I think, does indeed deserve harsh criticism for its failure to protect the embassy. However, the timing and the manner in which Romney went about his criticism - in effect undermining a siting administration during a crisis - was reprehensible.

But let as assume, for the sake of argument, that this was partisan, and that Matthews sees it as his job to support a democratic president as opposed to a republican one. Let us assume that he uses his position to advocate for the administration. Let's even say that he coordinates with them to a degree. That still does not put this on the level of "state media" the likes of which one finds in Syria, Iran, China, or North Korea. To imply so would seem disingenuous.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Can I just say the following:

There is no question that Mathews is a liberal. I would not be surprised if his biases made him a more effective critic of the right than the left. That said, this right-wing tendency to seize on comments, excerpted and then utterly stripped of context, and parade them as proof of some sort of hidden liberal agenda is tiresome. "AHA! Matthews admits he is working for Obama!!! We knew it all along!! Here it is right here on tape! STATE RUN MEDIA!!!!"

Not that the left doesn't do this as well from time to time, but it is equally distasteful when either side does it, and the right seems to do it with greater frequency.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Triumvere,

How does a leftward trend in the personal politics of journalists translate into state control of the media?

By the concept of narrative building and then spinning the facts afterward to support the narrative. Even if those facts begin to be shown later on as totally false.

One case in point. The most villified man in America, George Zimmerman. The accepted media narrative being that racial profiling is always a factor in these type of cases.,...... period. After all America still has a race problem doggone it, and that is the overarching narrative. Facts that don't support that contention are glossed over or tossed away or dismissed out of hand. The narrative is always more important than the facts.

Narratives are now the defining MSM mode of operation and they tend to be totally on the left political side of the equation in America. The MSM has ceded in way to many cases to not seek the objective truth or just following a story to see where it leads. The pre-conceived narrative framework on any given story now dominates and that translates into an established narrative "state controlled media" in that sense.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Sailwind,

I am no fan of "narrative" based journalism, but I fail to see what connection anything you wrote has to do with "the state." "The state" and "liberals" are not equivalent even when a liberal occupies the oval office.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Triumvere:

utterly stripped of context

Matthews' comments were not taken out of context.

"AHA! Matthews admits he is working for Obama!!! We knew it all along!! Here it is right here on tape! STATE RUN MEDIA!!!!"

Was that hyperbole really necessary? I never said the media is "state-run". But they are willing volunteers.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Matthews' comments were not taken out of context.

No? I actually watched the link you posted. Even cut to a sparse 1 minute, it was rather clear that Mathews was saying what you implied he was.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Ahem. "that Mathews was not saying what you implied he was."

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

"The state" and "liberals" are not equivalent even when a liberal occupies the oval office.

The "state" is representated by the administration that is in power at the time be it with an R or with a D. The media's obligation is to not ever be in the position to be just a conduit for administration talking points that is fed to it. Under GWB the Media was pretty darn good about challenging everything the administration fed it. The Media felt it was burned by the GWB adminstration during the lead up to the Iraqi invasion (and rightfully so). And it actually did its job as being SOB's to those in power after that.

Under Obama the Media has reverted back to most cases to being nothing more than what it was prior to the GWB invading Iraq. Just good lap dogs for the Administration line. The media has failed to do its job for the American people under this administration, as it failed to do its job under GWB during the lead-up to Iraq.

Just for contrast, imagine if the media did do its job prior to the invasion, things may well have turned out a heck of lot differently. I use that example just to show how all Americans lose no matter what side of the political spectrum when the Media is not being true SOB's to both parties either D or R.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Failure to properly criticize an administration due to inherent bias is a plausible charge and an excellent argument for more political diversity in newsrooms. Accusations of top-down state control, however, are not. This sort of exaggeration seems like an obvious disservice to your otherwise legitimate concern about media bias.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Serrano

Ryan just looked like he didn't couldn't explain certain things. The idea of just trusting Ryan and Romney to somehow magically implement a 20% tax cut without getting rid of important things doesn't seem likely. It's great that they have 6 studies that give it the green light, but I need an explanation as to how it will work, and Ryan didn't even know how it worked. I'm not saying it's impossible, but he couldn't explain it logically (not even giving numbers or anything) which isn't a great sign form me. Also, under the Romney-Ryan plan, there would in fact be additional military spending unlike what was claimed, 2 trillion over 10 years. Both sides were wrong on some things.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

‘Unprecedented’: Watch Joe Biden Interrupt Paul Ryan 85 Times During Debate @ http://www.theblaze.com/stories/unprecedented-watch-joe-biden-interrupt-paul-ryan-85-times-during-debate/

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Tuntematon SotilasOct. 13, 2012 - 12:35PM JST : Ryan just looked like he didn't couldn't explain certain things.

Ryan got interrupted at least 85 times by Biden so it's a challenge to explain things. It's hard for a lot of people to remember what they were saying in a conversation when they were interrupted by someone.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Obama is winning. And he's gonna win. And I know that must cause you some pain. And even though I despise your politics, I do not wish you any ill will. And so I feel sorry for the pain and discomfort that I know you will experience come this glorious Nov. 6.

If I were you, the way the polls are going, you never know you might be the one shopping for discounted Kleenex boxes.

And the thing is, not only will Obama win, We Dems are gonna keep the Senate. And it gets worse. It looks like Reid has actually learned his lesson and will change the Senate rules to prevent your party from abusing them and making the Senate a 60 vote needed body. So sad, but there you go. So I do feel for you, my god friend, and hope that does not cause you too much discomfort.

Even if that WERE true as long as the Repubs can maintain the House, we can always leave bills unsigned. That way, they'll insure Gridlock and nothing will get to the Senate, conclusion-Roadblock!

I guess the only thing is you Republicans may hold onto the House. It looked pretty bleak until Obama's fumble last week. And you guys had a good week. But Fightin' Joe ended that.

As I said, that's more than enough to curb Obama's insatiable appetite for spending.

So the real question is what will happen Tuesday. I hope for your sake Obama doesn't destroy Rmoney, 'cause if he does, then We Dems have a shot at the House. And then the fun really begins!

Hmmm, for your sake, you should hope how Obama is going to dance around hard hitting questions about the economy that is so badly failed under this President. Because once he starts trying to brag about his so called accomplishments, Romney will have an economical verbal assault on Obama, trust me, I don't think Obama is looking forward to this next debate, but I sure as hell am!

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@Tunte

I agree that Biden was condescending at times. Remember that Ryan also cut off Biden once. What determines whether someone wins a debate? Etiquette or Substance? Ryan was a better showman, but Biden clearly had more substance and experience.

That depends on who you believe, but manner and etiquette means everything when you are running for office and when a person gets that emotional in a debate, it makes you look like a loser every time so you are kinda right and wrong on that point. Biden was the hothead and it just pulled him down.

It was a failure on behalf of the state department when requests were made for reinforcements in Libya and none were sent and Biden could not defend that point. However, throughout most (not all) of the debate Ryan could not justify his positions as well as Biden could.

You also have to remember, Ryan was debating the VP and also he's younger, had he done the same thing as Biden did and disrespected, we would have never seen the end to the shelling from the pundits on the National Barack Channel.

Ryan had a hard time giving specifics on how the Romney-Ryan 20% off tax cuts would work. He was too vague in general whereas Biden came off as an experienced old-timer.

Well, it was a bit hard since the mod was always interrupting Ryan and cutting in, so it became a bit more difficult and she was just horrible.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Accusations of top-down state control, however, are not. This sort of exaggeration seems like an obvious disservice to your otherwise legitimate concern about media bias.

Comparing our Media to a communist type State-controlled Media is a bit over the top hyperbole I will grant you. Though on a lighter note as good humor always does have a bit of a grain of truth to it, and since we are on the topic I've found this comment I ran across awhile back to be really quite amusing in all of this.

Insulted by accusations of them doing Obama's bidding, enraged media demand immediate instructions from White House on how to respond.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Joe Biden did make one major mistake in his facts that I found in one of the fact checks.

Joe Biden claimed that Paul Ryan had requested stimulus money on two separate occasions. Uncle Joe was wrong. The fact is Ryan had requested for stimulus money FOUR TIMES. Just another addition to the long list of republican hypocrisy. When it comes down to it, republicans LOVE government money, as long as it helps them.

Paul Ryan's letters: http://ja.scribd.com/doc/109858723/Paul-Ryan-Letters

2 ( +3 / -1 )

skip: "Watch Joe Biden Interrupt Paul Ryan 85 Times During Debate"

LOL...

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

@Mirai - What about Biden's "We didn't know they need more security in Benghazi"?

Well, OK, Biden probably didn't know, lol.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

An Ipsos poll released yesterday gave Joe Biden a victory over Paul Ryan of 42% to 35%, with the rest undecided. Biden also won the CBS snap poll 50% to 31% but lost the CNN snap poll 44% to 48%.

So the bottom line: Biden had two large wins and one small loss among the three major polls of the debate.

Once again, the polls show Biden won.

Which is neither breaking nor news. We all knew this ten minutes after the debate started.

Just as as all know Obama is wining.

And all the right whiners whining won't change a thing.

I'm Lovin it™

1 ( +1 / -0 )

So, the bottom line: Biden was rude, condescending, and immature.

If I was a Democrat, I'd be embarrassed at Biden's performance in this debate.

Fortunately, I'm not a Democrat.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@JTDan

Just as as all know Obama is wining

Agree with your sentiments 100%, my friend. But this is a seriously unfortunate slip of the pen :)

.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I certainly hope Biden learns some manners by the day after the election and congratulates President-elect Romney and Vice President-elect Ryan properly and gracefully.

Hey, a guy can dream, can't he? ( about Biden improving his manners, heh heh )

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@JT

An Ipsos poll released yesterday gave Joe Biden a victory over Paul Ryan of 42% to 35%, with the rest undecided. Biden also won the CBS snap poll 50% to 31% but lost the CNN snap poll 44% to 48%.

What polls are you reading? Mickey Muse polls. again, you are spinning, by most accounts, it was pretty much even. Between Biden and Ryan, there is not that much of a lead, maybe 2 to 3 points, which is close, which equates to a tie. Glad to help with the clarification.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Smokin' Joe.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I thought conservatives and republicans were supposed to tougher than the Democrats. They look like a bunch s eriously butt-hurt children whose mommy didn't buy them something at the store

Butt-hurt children? , I am not sure what your referring to. Please post this sex child practice.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I am not sure what your referring to

Is that a fact?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I put "it was pretty much even." onto my Translate Republican into English and guess what came out:

Biden mopped the floor with the kid.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

bassfunk

Oh goody! Cut and Paste!™ And its just about my nap time!

If I were you, the way the polls are going, you never know you might be the one shopping for discounted Kleenex boxes.

Dream on. Or better yet, put your money where your right wing kisser is. I'll bet you Obama wins. Here the wager:

If Obama wins, you can't post here for, oh, six months. If Rmoney wins, I won't post here for six months.

If you don't take the wager, then we know how confident you are in your guy.

Even if that WERE true

It is,

as long as the Repubs can maintain the House, we can always leave bills unsigned. That way, they'll insure Gridlock and nothing will get to the Senate, conclusion-Roadblock!

Yeah, we know that is what you Republicans do. Because you put party before country. But even your sorry excuse for a party knows that when Obama gets re-elected, and when We Dems take the Senate, and your guys obstruct again, Americans will blame your sorry excuse for a party. Again.

And elect a Dem again in 2016.

So go for it. Make my day.

As I said, that's more than enough to curb Obama's insatiable appetite for spending.

More Republican Bullsh@t. You never complained under Raegan and Bush II, both who spent more. You guys only complain when the black guy is in charge.

And Americans know it.

Hmmm, for your sake, you should hope how Obama is going to dance around hard hitting questions about the economy that is so badly failed under this President.

Horse Hockey. Obama saved us from your party driving us right to the edge of the cliff. Americans know that. That is why four years later, we -- and I mean we the people of America -- blame Bush for our present problem. Over half of us. less than 25% blame Obama.

And here the majoirty gots its right.

Because once he starts trying to brag about his so called accomplishments,

Like keeping Detroit Alive and killing OBL

Romney will have an economical verbal assault on Obama,

"verbal assault" that sounds mean. Oh, I forgot, when your guy does it, its ok. When Biden mops the floor with the Kid, its mean. Riiiiiight.

trust me,

No thank you. I trust patriots and fellow Dems.

I don't think Obama is looking forward to this next debate,

I'm sure you do. And that is why you're guy is going down.

but I sure as hell am!

Not as much as I.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Being a glutton for punishment I went to see what the delusional at Fox news were saying.

Who won the poll. 8.52% Vice President Biden Rep. Paul Ryan 91.48%

Total Votes: 169,589

teeny tiny disclaimer at the bottom of the poll - "this is not a scientific poll" :-)

wow, even by Fox news standards wow. Republicans scare me, they really do.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

I put "Biden mopped the floor with the kid" into my Translate Liberal into English and guess what came out:

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@JT

Whatever buddy, no one is paying attention, we know what the polls are, you can live in Lala land if you want, but both men are tied, which means it's close and no one, not even the pollsters can call the election yet, but you seem to think that you are Mr. Know it all. Sorry, I trust Gallup, Rasmussen, CNN, Pew and FOX polling before I take one sentence of you serious, although your posts are cutely entertaining. ;-)

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

bass - Please don't take up DantheMan on his proposed bet, we don't want to be deprived of his posts for 6 months when Romney wins!

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

@carch

That depends on you. Biden was good, as well as Ryan, but every major magazine said, Biden was smiling, laughing smirk, condescending and acted like an ass. Which made him look real bad, Dems are in such trouble and are so worried, they are losing it. Dems are the ones you should be worried about. Why would you want to vote for a president that has been an absolute failure for the las 4 years and want to vote him in for a second term? If Obama was leading by 10 pts. I can't argue that fact, but Obama is neck and neck with Romney, too close, the election could go either way. Don't hatch your chickens before they're counted.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

sailwind:

Comparing our Media to a communist type State-controlled Media is a bit over the top hyperbole I will grant you.

Did anybody actually claim that, or was it another strawman?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Yep, desperation is high among liberals, you can hear it in their constant rhetoric and denials that the economy is in shambles and that Obama and Biden are horrible and these new jobs numbers are far from being scrutinized. Yes, Dems are worried. This election is way too close for comfort for them.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Dems are the ones you should be worried about. Why would you want to vote for a president that has been an absolute failure for the las 4 years

I wouldn't want to vote for either of them! I'd give my vote to Gary Johnson. I did like the cut of Ron Paul's cloth.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

From the first minute of the debate i already posted on my FB that Biden had won. It was clear from the first swing that Ryan was a no-brainer and was just trying to get through alive. This was not an equal match and anyone who thinks so it filling themselves with too many hot dogs. For the Romney, Obama debate it was clear that Romney came out ahead but for the Biden/Ryan debate it was clear from the start. I just can not figure out why Romney chose an idiotic VP candidate who does not know anything about anything. I am thinking to run as VP if this is my competition.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Biden "came out swinging"? No, he came out grinning, sneering, and telling blatant lies.

Just to recount a few of the most incredible lies, Byden contradicted his own state dept about the Bengazi scandal, he lied about White House treatment of Netanyahu, and he lied about his own voting record in the Iraq war.

Byden clearly thought that by a bullying, condescending attitude, he could get away with stating outright lies. I guess that flies with the partisan zealots, who only hear what they want to hear. Will it with those who actually listen to debates? I don´t know.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Joseph Garret Baxter:

" From the first minute of the debate i already posted on my FB that Biden had won. "

Really now. You must have seen a different debate than I did.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

As of today Biden still hasn't apologized for interrupting Ryan 85 times.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Biden did his job- he showed passion and energy. Unfortunately, he showed too much of it. Came across as a bit of a jerk. He also, it really must be noted, said NOTHING about either his record, or about what a second Obama term would be like. He spent his time demagoguing the possibility of a Romney White House.

Ryan was calm, stuck to the issues, and so on. Most importantly, he looked vice presidential. Americans got an unfiltered look at him, and liked what they saw.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I think it's pretty funny that conservatives looked at Mitt Romney interrupting Barack Obama, he was being "presidential."

When Biden interrupts Ryan, he's being "mean."

Is there such a thing as a conservative who doesn't play the victim card or prescribe to double standards?

They're like children in their terrible twos. It's all ME ME ME ME. And if they don't get their way, it's the media's fault.

I can't imagine what it must be like to live a life of ever ongoing conspiracies. Obama Derangement Syndrome has really taken hold of them and has them in its death grip. As they like to say about their guns, you can have their victim card when you pull it from their cold, dead bodies.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

"Is there such a thing as a conservative who doesn't play the victim card or prescribe to double standards?"

Of course!

"They're like children in their terrible twos. It's all ME ME ME ME."

As Biden would say, with all due respect, that's a bunch of malarkey.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@OldHawk

Did anybody actually claim that, or was it another strawman?

You missed the dozen posts on what the difference was between a liberal media and a state run one, apparently - a question was raised by skipbeat:

What's the difference in regards to the mainstream media leaning to the left and a state run press?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

It was embarrassing, a grown man (Biden) acting like a giggly child. I think they should have given him a field sobriety, and a breathalyzer test. What an absent minded Professor--"Mr. Barge in," interrupting his debater and the commentator, every time they opened their mouth. Or maybe he drank too much coffee, but he sure didn't take it seriously. We weren't interested in his laughing, sighing, or those huge teeth. Put a sock in it Mr. V.P. And another funny thing: Obama actually was proud of him. Wow! Joe Biden should apologize to Paul Ryan, and the American People. Seriously, when I want to see a stand up comic, I'll turn on Comedy Central.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

You can see clearly by the down-votes, which party is open to listening to others' opinions.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Oh good grief, now Ryan's in trouble for washing pots at a soup kitchen.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Or, the vice president is rude and condescending, depending on your viewpoint.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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