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Bin Laden urges jihad against Israel

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The authenticity of the tape could not be independently confirmed. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said he had no reason to question the authenticity of the tape but was uncertain the U.S. had verified the voice.

Bin Laden reproduced by Western Media. Undesirable unwanted product.

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urged Muslims to launch a jihad against Israel

Has there ever not been a jihad against Israel by Muslims?

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The only connection between Bin Laden and Palestine is when Bin Laden gives them lip service in his statements to gain international support for his own selfish cause.

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Now that many angry young men are roaming the world, a voice like bin Laden's is all they need to push their anger to the next level. Whether it's authentic or not, to believers, it will be authentic.

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Has there ever not been a jihad against Israel by Muslims?" I believe there is a sort of jihad against most of the non-Muslim world.

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SuperLib: "The only connection between Bin Laden and Palestine is when Bin Laden gives them lip service in his statements to gain international support for his own selfish cause."

Saying Bin Laden gets 'international support' is somewhat misleading. He'll NEVER get the support of any rationally minded people. On the one hand, unfortunately, he WILL get the support of Islamic radicals and the insane, possibly strengthening attacks against Israeli targets in Israel and elsewhere. On the other and, what's fortunate is that the support some countries have been expressing towards the Palestinian cause (NOT Hamas!) will disappear to some extent with OBL's endorsement.

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[ He'll NEVER get the support of any rationally minded people. On the one hand, unfortunately, he WILL get the support of Islamic radicals and the insane, ] There seems to be a few of those in the Muslim world and too many of the latter in it as well.

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This what i predicted would happen because of the genocide in Gaza, but the right wingers scoffed at me like.

Now, Israel has cheesed off Bin Laden and put itself in more danger and more hated around the world and that. Very clever idea Israel.

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smith, I think you're wrong. If it seems as though he is winning his war against the US/West, people will throw support. I think it is only natural. This would have happened had it been even Christians or Jews or what ever self called group.

Addionally, even if he garners 1% of Muslims, that is still a lot.

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wow..dead man talking ..again..lol

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bushlover: "There seems to be a few of those in the Muslim world and too many of the latter in it as well."

Agreed.

skipthesong: Did you read my entire post? I said that UNFORTUNATELY, he WILL get the support of radical Islamists and the insane, possibly leading to an escalation in attacks against Israel and Israeli targets abroad, BUT that his endoresement of Hamas fighting will lose the Palestinian cause some of the international support (ie. France, Egypt, etc.) it's been getting thusfar.

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millions of muslims will support him

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Oh no run for the hills, OBL has put us on double secret probation.

The Palestinians are big fans of Osama bin Laden. They were dancing in the streets of Gaza after bin Laden killed 3000 innocent men, women and children during 9-11

OBL call for donations to fund his tired jihad is further proof that the west is winning the war on terrorism. Al Queda calling for donations, classic.

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Strange, everyone here thinks that Bin Ladin is going to get massive support and reports I read in other sources say how he has become impotent with Al Qaida and is completely out of touch with the rest of the Muslim world. He's done, he is isolated, he doesn't count any more.

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and it looks like he is out of money.

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wow..dead man talking ..again..lo

So true!! Maybe he can no longer afford a camera because of the global economy's downturn!

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bin Liner is all talk and no action. He should get himself to Gaza right away to join in the jihad. Lead by example, instead of hiding in a cave like a frightened baby.

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Israel has cheesed off Bin Laden

Excellent. Whenever you "cheese off" Islamic terrorists, you know you're doing the right thing.

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Has there ever not been a jihad against Israel by Muslims?

I was thinking the same thing. What's changed?

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OBL, is that the guy how attacked the US on 9-11? The one bush said he would get dead or alive? He is still around? Why has bush let him live I wonder, or more important why did bush let him attack the US in the first place.

Anyway, OBL has now survived the bush presidency. Simply amazing that he can get his screwy tapes out even now.

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Excellent. Whenever you "cheese off" Islamic terrorists, you know you're doing the right thing.

I think it would cheese off Islamic terrorists is Israel apologists bled all over their copies of the Koran. Some should test the theory as it would be the right thing to do.

I love logic. To bad you two never met.

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They were dancing in the streets of Gaza

Poor uneducated people in a walled off prison ghetto, kept there by American weapons, friends and family having been killed by American weapons, or other weapons bought with American tax money. Why would they be happy that bin Laden ordered 9-11? Bizarre, huh? I would think they would be angry at bin Laden.....because they would want to do it themselves!

Newflash: Palestinians did not become anti-American despite America desperately seeking their friendship.

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Bizarre, huh?

yup!

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Who wants Israel's destruction more - OBL, or your average Leftist?

They both want Israel destroyed, though for different reasons of course. Hence, the Islamist-Socialist alliance.

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It takes a really staunch pacifist to expect Palestinians to show remorse or restraint when America sides so clearly with their enemy and oppressors.

I think nothing polarizes Islamic terrorists quite like the Israel-Palestine conflict. I wonder how difficult it would have been for bin Laden to find foot soldiers to carry out 9-11 if the U.S. did not support Israel so emphatically. 9-11 might never have happened. And that is not remotely tin foil hat territory.

Its not like the mostly Saudi terrorists of 9-11 had a case against the U.S. oppressing Saudi Arabia, is it?

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Helter_Skelter: "They both want Israel destroyed, though for different reasons of course. Hence, the Islamist-Socialist alliance."

Just shows off your ignorance is all. Show me a single 'leftist' that has called for the destruction of Israel. I can show you plenty that are in support of Palestinian innocents in light of the Israeli overreaction, and as such their anger at Israel, but I can't say I've heard them call for the latter's destruction. Oh, and the same people also hate Hamas, my friend, they just (to point it out again) think Israel is going overboard.

But hey, logic never was your cup of tea.

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Show me a single 'leftist' that has called for the destruction of Israel.

I will give you a hand Helter: They are hiding their true motives because they are ashamed of them.

But if they were ashamed, why hold such sentiments? Ok, maybe that did not help you. Sorry.

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Don't worry Osama, with what Israel is currently doing in Gaza, you will get plenty of recruits.

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. Show me a single 'leftist' that has called for the destruction of Israel.

Oh, c'mon smith. Don't you remember, Israel is an "imperialist and colonizing" nation. It's also capitalist, religious, militaristic, an ally of the US, and its enemies are people of color. It's every leftist's nightmare. And you still don't think leftists want to see it destroyed? Get real.

Moderator: Readers, we can do without words like "leftist" please. Such labels have no place in an exchange of views among mature readers.

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I don't want to see Israel destroyed, but I do want to see it held to account. There is no way you can justify the slaughter of over 1,000 people (a large number of whom are civilians). In much the same way, however, I would like to see the fundamentalist fringe of Islam get a serious hair cut, if just for the grief that they have caused "their own people." Thinking about my wish list, I suppose I would also like to see America take a more level-headed approach to the Palestine question. These people are essentially stateless, and they are very pxssed. And you don't think it has anything to do with the ghetto-like existence that they lead in "refugee camps." What a joke. The longer the state of denial that exists regarding the Palistine Question, the more and more disaffected muslims who join the ranks of OBL.

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I have yet to see any major Muslim organizations coming out and showing disapproval of this. Should we take it for granted that they are?

Maybe only a small percentage is going to support him, but what should I do, stop them and ask them or take matters into my own hands.

I'm not going to put with a loss of friends again just because Hamas and Israel can't get along.

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I wonder how difficult it would have been for bin Laden to find foot soldiers to carry out 9-11 if the U.S. did not support Israel so emphatically.

Bin laden apparently had no problem recruiting mujahideen foot soldiers in Afghanistan for their holy war against the Soviet Union in the 1980's, and yet the Soviet Union never supported Israel. Anyway, Bin Laden declared Jihad against the US when he saw US jet fighters using Saudi Arabia as a staging ground during the first gulf war. It was the presence of the US Infidel in his Islamic nation that turned him against the US, not Israel. In fact, he was an ally of the US up until that time, even though the US was supporting Israel. So much for your theory. BTW, you do know Bin Laden was from Saudi Arabia, don't you?

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meh..there IS NO Osama Bin Laden...at least not the person that the CIA would like everyone to believe exists.The well-timed tapes and photos of different people who are supposedly Bin Laden released over the years only lead me to one conclusion.He is a fake and the people who continue his myth are gaining something by keeping people in fear of thsi 'bogeyman'.

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thank you helter, these other guys have a bad habit of letting their emotions get in the way and start making things up or repeating the garbage they are being fed. good on you for setting the record straight.

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Criticism of Israel's seeming indifference to civilian casualties does not come even close to and endorsement for its destruction.

Funny how civilian casualties only become a concern for the left when their caused by the US or Israel. And you do know that Hamas terrorists purposely hide among innocent civilians in hopes they'll be killed because they know first-worlders like yourself will blame Israel. It's terrible that innocent lives are being lost, but I'm able to recognize this is the fault of Hamas terrorists, not Israel.

But I am critical of Israel as well. I think they were foolish to allow Hamas to fire rockets at civilian targets in Israel for eight years before finally taking military action. I think they're foolish to agree to cease-fires with Hamas that simply give time for Hamas to re-arm themselves. I feel they're foolish in believing that they can get peace for land. I could go on.

Criticism of Israel's seeming indifference to civilian casualties does not come even close to and endorsement for its destruction.

You see the rhetoric about Israel on this board from the left. You know it's more than just criticism of the civilian casualties. Hey, but nice try to convince me otherwise. Anyway, I used to be on the Left myself, but I finally woke up from the world of fantasy and wishful thinking. You should too.

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"The authenticity of the tape could not be independently confirmed."

Yet this article doesn't add that gem until halfway through, despite reporting as fact initially.

Does anyone believe a meglomaniac such as rich-boy turned jihadist Oussama could keep himself from making proper videos.....?

I for one doubt it.

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Well, that part is true.

Let the truth be told!!! Thanks likeitis for both being honest and proving my point.

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Bin laden apparently had no problem recruiting mujahideen foot soldiers in Afghanistan for their holy war against the Soviet Union in the 1980's, and yet the Soviet Union never supported Israel.

You cannot see the forest Helter. Too many trees I guess, blocking your view. The mujahideen were fighting the Soviets because they were invading Afghanistan! The Palistine sales pitch was hardly necessary.

Anyway, Bin Laden declared Jihad against the US when he saw US jet fighters using Saudi Arabia as a staging ground during the first gulf war. It was the presence of the US Infidel in his Islamic nation that turned him against the US, not Israel.

Its hard to tell if your changing of the subject is strategy or stupidity. I was not speaking of bin Laden's reasons for wanting to hit the U.S. I was speaking of the foot soldier's who carried out his plans.

Anyway, I doubt if even bin Laden has one single reason for anything he does. What you speak of is as likely to be the straw that broke the camel's back as anything. The history of the Israel-Palestine conflict is decades old and bitter from the get go. It permeates the minds of a great many Muslims. It is a true base of hatred and mistrust for all angry Muslims, while it would qualify as a direct cause for action for only a few. But the bottom falls out without the base you know.

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Bin Laden... speakin' to you from a hole in the ground... for the rest of his life.

As it should be.

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Thanks likeitis for both being honest and proving my point.

That was a point? I think it is well known that many many people figured the (deserved) image of the U.S. government would get America a serious terror attack sooner or later. The astounding part was that it took so long!

Just don't take that to be any kind of hope for it or support of it. Its not. I am just saying that if you cheese off enough people, one is bound to take a swing at you and even members of your family too.

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Likeitis, and when some folks "cheese off" the US you've seen what happens next.

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skipthesong: "I have yet to see any major Muslim organizations coming out and showing disapproval of this. Should we take it for granted that they are?"

Be careful; the last time you guys (and I don't mean you specifically, though I do refer to Helter_Skelter, and TooFarGone before he got the boot) kept saying, "Why don't Muslims stand up and show disapproval," as soon as they did (after the Mumbai attacks) you guys came on again saying, "Well... uuuuhhhh.... oh! Yeah! Well, uhhh, actions speak louder than words!"

So, when they do come on and people disapprove, I hope you have your next excuses ready (again, not specifically you, I just mention it under your name since you posted the question).

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Likeitis, and when some folks "cheese off" the US you've seen what happens next.

I would hope my country would have a cooler head. It helps with my self esteem.

I have also witnessed what my country does when they have not been cheesed off. Not proud of that either.

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figured the (deserved) image of the U.S. government would get America a serious terror attack

Do you also believe Spain deserved the terrorist attack by Islamic terrorists when they blew up the train station in Madrid? Did India deserve the attack by Islamic terrorists recently in Mumbai? Did Bali deserve the attack by Islamic terrorists? England? Philippines? Russia? Thailand? Did they all deserve it?

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Bin Laden... speakin' to you from a hole in the ground... for the rest of his life.

As it should be.

Like Saddam in the last days of his life. But with audio tapes (mind you, tapes) anyone can impersonate BL. And what is it that rallies people (?) behind his idiotic, radical, destructive doctrine anyway? Hatred and a defective brain.

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as soon as they did (after the Mumbai attacks) you guys came on again saying, "Well... uuuuhhhh.... oh! Yeah! Well, uhhh, actions speak louder than words!""

I didn't hear about that. I don't usually rove around on Islamic based sites, what is there for me?

Perhaps you're right and many do. My point is I think it would be good for Muslims to have prominent Muslims to come out and denounce them and put more towards getting rid of it instead of, from what I see and hear, is more of a deflection.

There are many reason to raise an eye brow towards Islam, especially the needs for separate pools (what, do I infect the pool with my infidel self?), gyms, sporting events and I am talking about right there in the US. You can't possibly be supportive of those requests. Things like these requests/demands add fuel to the fire which is causing a lot of hate/backlash. Then you have one of the wealthiest men in the world forming his own army and in many places he is held as a hero.

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"again likeitis confirms another suspicion, the left lives a life of fear."

Likeitis: Not only is his comment utterly ridiculous, if anything by his logic he is stating that while YOU may live in fear, he and his ilk live it utter and sheer paralyzing terror! I mean, heck, here you are coming on here saying Obama will be much better than bush, while Helter and those on the ultra-right are saying if we lose bush's paranoid security establishments, torture camps, right to spy on Americans, etc., you'll be open to more attacks. Who's the one who's really afraid if they insist upon all of those things and more? Well, either he and his are live in more fear than you and I, or else perhaps... and this is out on a limb for Helter in terms of logic... unless PERHAPS you were merely stating that you think there will be another attack but it doesn't mean you are living in fear! GASP!

Anyway, more ridiculous garbage from said poster and others like him. We can sit on here and talk about how much we loathe OBL and those who blindly follow him, but so long as we don't agree with the outright slaughter of all Muslims world-wide, or in Gaza if we don't side with Israel 100%, in Helter's eyes we are ultimately somehow friens with OBL and Islamic radicals (and Hamas!).

It's astounding, really, but then Helter did come on before (in the thread 'Obama is called House Negro' or whatever by Al-Qaida) and say that if you hate GWB you are on the side of terrorists, but if you hate Obama you are an American patriot and against terrorists.

Here, read for yourself: (in response to my pointing out his hypocrisy, as I did above).

"Helter_Skelter at 05:24 PM JST - 20th November

smithinjapan: Yes, this is exactly correct. Leftists support AQ simply because they don't like Bush. But now that AQ is criticizing their Messiah, they don't like AQ that much anymore. By jove, I think you've got it - the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain."

He then goes on in the same post to say: "I'm don't use AQ as a political tool like the Leftists."

Moderator: Readers, we have already requested that you stop overusing meaningless words like "leftists." They have no place in an exchange of views among mature adults.

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likeitis Having live in NYC at that time, as well as worked for a firm that was second in terms of loss of lives, I really don't know how to take you comment.

While smitty is going to go off on me, I'll say this, I ain't going through a bunch of funerals again because some rich with a vendetta. Let's hope many do not take up his cause this time, I won't wait on the government, especially as the UN is caving into Islamic demands, to protect me and my family. Their tactics alone can make friends into enemies quickly. This time, I'll take some with me.

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skipthesong: " I won't wait on the government, especially as the UN is caving into Islamic demands, to protect me and my family. Their tactics alone can make friends into enemies quickly. This time, I'll take some with me."

Best be careful, my friend, Helter is saying people who express far less are living in fear! Hahaha..

Seriously, though, I'm not going off on you, I was just pointing out that whenever you guys come on here and say 'Where are all the Muslims decrying this incident!?' or what have you, I believe you honestly don't want to hear them rise against it, you just want to vent anger at Muslims. As I pointed out before, this is exactly the same as when you guys were demanding Muslims cry out against the Mumbai attack. When they did, the same people who demanded their outrage simply said their outrage has no meaning unless they act. When some acted the same people said it was only half-hearted, etc.

People who are full of hate, be it for all Muslims and Islam, for OBL himself, for Israelis and/or Hamas, for Americans, for Japanese, for the British, or whosoever, they make countless excuses to keep that fear up front because they cannot deal with things in their own lives, and it simply keeps them going. When those beliefs are shattered, they simply can't deal. As such, the people who make claims that 'OBL is not really alive, he's just a ploy to keep people scared', while I don't believe them there ARE examples of this kind of behaviour to keep people afraid.

Anyway, just be wary of you're dissing all Muslims. I don't know a person who does NOT hate OBL, but that's no reason to hate all Muslims.

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likeitis Having live in NYC at that time, as well as worked for a firm that was second in terms of loss of lives, I really don't know how to take you comment.

I do not know which comment you mean, but I think the main one to focus on is the one stating that the wrong people died on 9/11. I am sorry for your losses and sorry you had be so close to the misguided and tragic attack.

I ain't going through a bunch of funerals again because some rich with a vendetta.

I certainly hope not. But bin Laden is not the only rich guy you should be worried about. You should also consider the rich guys make money off of arms sales to Israel.

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Like I said before, there is no connection between Bin Laden and Palestine except for a few statements released by Osama. The Palestinians want nothing to do with him and he wants nothing to do with them. In situations where the world is giving Palestinians sympathy, Obama tries to attach his name to try to capture some of that sympathy for himself. Other than that there's not much to say.

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smithinjapan at 07:07 PM JST - 15th January

Golden post my friend.

smithinjapan at 06:33 PM JST - 15th January

Thank you for the solidarity. We must be vigilant against his kind of active ignorance. If we let our guard down, or fail to address such madness, we will just get more Bush administrations, OBLs and all the crap that come with them. So, we must expose them for the liars and/or mistaken fools they are, because they tend to have the same evil effects on the world, intentional or not.

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Like I said before, there is no connection between Bin Laden and Palestine

And nobody was trying to make one Super, not a direct one anyway.

But are you going to deny that Palestine is a general base for anti-western feelings in the M.E. that occupies significant space in the mind of most every Islamic terrorist?

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I didn't hear about that.

That is too bad Skip, because the squirming was so loud, you could hear it through your internet router! I suspect you did hear it, you just did not know what it was until now!

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Me think bin Laden bin dead for some time now. But he always pops up when "they" need him. I guess they need someone to condition the people to believe that Israel is on our side of the global war on terror.

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Do you also believe Spain deserved blah blah blah...

I said the U.S. government deserved its image. (note period preceeding these words)

I cannot say I know of anyone who deserved a terrorist attack and got one. But what I am completely positive on is: the overwhelming majority most certainly did not!

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Be like them, Choose Life!

I would have said "Choose courage! Face the music!"

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sabi, for once, I won't dispute you. I always carry a bit of doubt with me for the past few years.

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Likeitis: "Thank you for the solidarity. We must be vigilant against his kind of active ignorance. If we let our guard down, or fail to address such madness, we will just get more Bush administrations, OBLs and all the crap that come with them. So, we must expose them for the liars and/or mistaken fools they are, because they tend to have the same evil effects on the world, intentional or not."

Exactly! What they don't realize is that both sides in any given argument can more or less argue that they are correct in their assumptions and actions. You and I and a few others on here tend to sit more in the middle and declare that BOTH are to blame, but people like we have focussed on above just say it is one and not the other, that Israel is right and Hamas wrong, the US is right and 'terror' wrong. What they don't see is such black and white thinking is often what begets the things they declare to be wrong, and therefore are also partially to blame.

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bin laden would be dead by now if bush had done his job properly. Shameful.

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What they don't see is such black and white thinking is often what begets the things they declare to be wrong, and therefore are also partially to blame.

I refuse to accept if some stabs me for what ever political bullshit they may harbor that I Am partial to blame.

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sailwind: "I refuse to accept if some stabs me for what ever political bullshit they may harbor that I Am partial to blame."

And your refusal to acknowledge the facts is exactly part of the reason why said person could possibly stab you. Again, you cannot at all see that your own attitude and actions, whether intended or not, are often what lands you in trouble (I mean people in general, not only YOU, sailwind). You can see this every day in a microcosmic level (as in, not international warfare);

a) John is always very terse when people ask him about his day... people eventually stop asking, and more or less also stop talking to him aside from curt pleasantries; John begins complaining that everyone is against him.

b) Michelle is a pretty decent young woman; works hard, is independent, has a good head on her shoulders. However whenever her friends bring up the topic of men she begins to get dreamy-eyed and won't stop talking about a guy she likes, not giving the others much chance to comment, and not really listening to what they have to say. They stop talking about that topic around her, and she feels offended and believes they are stuck up.

c) Atiq is an okay guy, but tends to be a bit of a pompous ass when drinking. People don't invite him to parties anymore, but he knows they have parties anyway. He gets offended and begins ridiculing them, while they in turn cease to be friends with him.

Anyway, I could go on, but I know you'll just fail to get the point because as I said above, people who want to hate just want to hate, bottom line, and you guys cannot at all see that there are often two sides to things being wrong, and there is never ONE person in a fight that is 100% in the wrong while the other is completely innocent. A fight, by definition, does not involve simply one person. Needless to say that goes for war, too.

Okay, now that being said, there are some circumstances, of course, for which you cannot possibly be to blame if you were to be stabbed, such as some wacko walking down the street and just lashing out at the first person to walk by him/her. That's about it. If it's because you are at odds with someone over a political standpoint and are using the language you do on here ('...for whatever political bull$$it they may harbour'), well then I'm sorry, but there's a reason you get stuck -- I'm not at all saying it's justified; it's not, but that is another argument altogether.

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Rich guys against poor guys, pick your side, be violent or not. We all die someday, and there are Theologies older than 5000 years, and roughly all the same basic concept, and the same basic choices between good & bad. Its a tough world we live in, do we sell out for this one and try to be rich guys, like most of us on this site are already, or do we think about what we might be indirectly doing to the rest of the world? Even if we don't care about Theologies, do we eat in RHills or Mtown and arrogantly make other people feel like they should be like us too, when half the entire world map is people who live on less than 1 dollar a day. Choose your way of life, assume you will or will not meet your maker. I definitely don't condone violence, but what exactly is Osama Bin Laden trying to say when he and his guys take their own lives to take out the richest building in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Percentage_population_living_on_less_than_1_dollar_day_2007-2008.png

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likeitis: But are you going to deny that Palestine is a general base for anti-western feelings in the M.E. that occupies significant space in the mind of most every Islamic terrorist?

But are you going to deny that issues like Palestine are often used by the Middle East to excuse themselves from looking inward and seeing the possibility of self-criticism? Like many people here have said you should check out the aid the West gives to Palestine and how the surrounding Arabs treat Palestinians in general.

Besides, I'd rather not have people set policy based on the anticipated reaction of radicals. That's mostly just trying to appease an illogical mind.

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Pffft! The Muslims have been jihadin' against Israel since 1967.

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And your refusal to acknowledge the facts is exactly part of the reason why said person could possibly stab you. Again, you cannot at all see that your own attitude and actions, whether intended or not, are often what lands you in trouble (I mean people in general, not only YOU, sailwind). You can see this every day in a microcosmic level (as in, not international warfare);

I really hate seeing this blame the victim crap. Thats really what it is too. Everyone that commits murder has a motive, it never excuses the crime. There is no excuse for it, and blaming the victim is in no way the solution. The only one to blame for murder, is the person holding the knife.

Regarding this article. What a joke. How is this any different then what they've been saying since the 40s?

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Everyone that commits murder has a motive, it never excuses the crime.

As one of my old high school teachers used to say when we were late to class...."You have an explanation, not an excuse."

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sarge: "Pffft! The Muslims have been jihadin' against Israel since 1967."

So you admit that this has been going on since Israel stole land in the war? Good for you, bud... didn't take but a few years for you to admit it.

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Molenir: "Thats really what it is too. Everyone that commits murder has a motive, it never excuses the crime."

Show me where I said it excuses the crime, my friend. I'll gladly show you where I said that in many, many cases BOTH parties hold some of the blame (and depending on the situation, the victim may have just as much).

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Molenir: "The only one to blame for murder, is the person holding the knife."

So if a parent is beating/sexually assaulting, say, a 9 year old kid, and that kid pull out a 22 rifle and shoots the dad and his friend to death (as happened in the US recently), it's 100% the kids fault, eh? The father did ZERO wrong, eh? Does it excuse what the kid did? Not in the least, but it provides some of the rational for what happened (if indeed he was beaten), and will probably get him out of being tried as an adult.

What's more, my friend, by your logic Hamas and the Palestinians cannot in the least be blamed for the deaths of innocents in Gaza -- the Israelis ONLY are to blame. Fortunately, people like myself know that Hamas has as much part of the blame in this war as Israel.

I realize that's not entirely on topic, but I'm just using the example to address your point that the murderer is the ONLY person to blame.

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So if a parent is beating/sexually assaulting, say, a 9 year old kid, and that kid pull out a 22 rifle and shoots the dad and his friend to death (as happened in the US recently), it's 100% the kids fault, eh? The father did ZERO wrong, eh? Does it excuse what the kid did? Not in the least, but it provides some of the rational for what happened (if indeed he was beaten), and will probably get him out of being tried as an adult.

It is entirely the kids fault. Are there mitigating circumstances? Sure. Are others culpable as well? Certainly. The people who raised him, the ones that gave him the gun or the knife, etc. Lots of blame to go around.

And getting back to Hamas and Israel. Allow me to use an analogy. Israel is driving a bus, the Hamas killers are standing beside the road, with the Palestinian children. All of a sudden Hamas pushes the kids into the road, where Israel hits and kills them. So... who is to blame? Israel who was driving? Or Hamas, who pushed the kids in front of the bus? I know which I would choose. And while Israel may hold some culpability here, when it comes right down to it, we all know who is guilty.

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^^Bin Laden urges jihad against Israel^^

Note that in the 60 plus comments here no one debates the meaning of the word jihad as it is used by a man who is, outside of Muslim lands, the most recognizable face of modern Islam.

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In terms for recruitment for terrorism, bush is the most recognizable face within Islam. The prison photos of Abu Grahid come in second, of course that was bush policy.

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