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Blackwater guards accused of using grenades on unarmed Iraqis

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All based on conjecture and liberal bias with no foundation in fact. The US military and its agents (i.e. Blackwater) are always innocent and above reproach. Like other militaries (i.e. Japan during the Pacific War) the US suffers from irrational accusations and slander.

The soldier who turned on his comrades has given in to the liberal pressure brought on by Obama's victory.

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Yeah, self-defense shooting a grenade into a school. It's self-defense shooting a man with his hands in the air.

But maybe the guards can find a good alibi for killing people driving away from the intersection.

This will be interesting. Just because Utah is pro-gun doesn't mean they are pro-manslaughter.

I await their decisions. < :-)

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Yep, it's those damn liberals.

Be real. < :-)

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Finding and successfully prosecuting guilt in a war is not so easily done. The dead don't talk and the living control the story.

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If they committed these crimes without doubt, hang them in Iraq.

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You got one witness, the guard that spilled his guts. Remember the OJ case. It was the ones who spilled their guts that really sunk OJ.

They are also charged with using a machine gun to commit a crime of violence, a charge that carries a 30-year minimum sentence.

Yep, it must be those damn liberals. They pulled the triggers. < :-)

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Liberal or conservative - it doesn't matter. It doesn't look good for these guys. That said, the guys at Haditha were practically strung up by the kangaroo court of public opinion, and it turns out that they were innocent of the alleged atrocities.

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Wow. Just, unbelievable. Disgusting.

So I dearly pray that those previously defending these criminals at all costs recant and see the light. Shooting unarmed Iraqis. Not even warning cars to stop, no indication the Kia was a car bomb. Grenade girl's school. Wasn't even supposed to leave the zone.

Fry these pukes, they disgraced the United States. It's things like these that have endangered the lives of American troops.

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I never heard of any event in Iraq described quite like this. It sure seems different than any other account I have heard of this incident. Which is surprising because I just know the media was telling us everything.

So how many Iraqi witnesses will they put on the stand in Utah? Oh, never mind. The degree to which they are decorated and the general stance of the people of Utah toward the situation in Iraq are FAR more important indicators of what actually happened on that day than some eyewitness accounts. NOT!

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buddha: "The soldier who turned on his comrades has given in to the liberal pressure brought on by Obama's victory."

I LOVE how you had to quickly add this in on the end. Proves that you know something is wrong, and rotten in Denmark.

"The dead don't talk and the living control the story."

Why else do you think they killed just about everyone they could? You think they wanted the two-year-old 'insurgent' to be able to use his first words against them? How about those little girls in the school that the launched grenades at? I guess it's a heinous crime to throw acid in the faces of Muslim girls, but not grenades -- long as it's Americans doing the 'good work', eh?

You now have a man who has pleaded guilty and is telling things like it is, and yet you STILL have morons on this board, who would otherwise condemn an entire 1.4 billion for the actions of a few, who will come to the aid of these Blackwater terrorists. The company should also be ashamed of itself. I can understand they are worried about their image, but no one is blaming all of Blackwater, and the sooner these people stand up and condemn the acts of those in their group who commit such crimes, the better (sound familiar, anti-Muslims?). They should distance themselves from these terrorists and even help press charges so as to clear their own name. Because, when it comes to light later that all this slaughter was true, they're only going to look all the worse for backtracking and desperately defending the terrorists in question.

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The court is demanding, by the way, these guys be tried in DC, not Utah.

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It also sought the right to prosecute the men in Iraqi courts." This should be the case and no one should question the punishment.

smitty, you're doing it again. Look man, "condemn an entire 1.4 billion for the actions of a few" that is usually how things work, whether you like it or not. Your entire kind is forever condemned and I am sure you've been one of the good ones - but go to the wrong place, you will meet the fate for the actions of a few (or even many). People, most, don't pick bad apples out of the bunch, the bunch is usually considered bad.

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They should distance themselves from these terrorists and even help press charges so as to clear their own name" If I were one of them, I would see what happens. If the terrorist win it could be good and if they lose it could be good. Why would you want to hurt the hand that feeds you?

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If they did the deed in Iraq, shouldn't they be tried in Iraq?

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Cleo, even if the Blackwater guards are as innocent as your dogs, in an Iraqi court in the present political climate, they would be found guilty.

That being said, I actually agree with you. They should be tried in Iraq.

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Sarge -

Going from what we are given here, it sounds like they should be found guilty wherever they're tried.

Interesting comment about the dogs - they are a couple of sweeties, but if they did ever hurt anyone it would be my responsibility. So whose responsibility are the Blackwater rotties?

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even if the Blackwater guards are as innocent as your dogs, in an Iraqi court in the present political climate, they would be found guilty."

Anyone who enters jobs such as this, or the CIA should be well aware of what may happen to them and things like your statement happen a lot. Watch Spooks on BBC more often, gives you a real good insight of what goes on in agencies like that and Blackwater being what it is is just the same. These people are not to be praised nor honored as they are not soldiers fighting for their country, they are Mercs who fight who ever for money (can't blame them) and they would shoot you without a second thought if the situation called for it. They surely wouldn't wait for a jury. I have no sympathy for them.

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I spent 4 1/2 years in Iraq and had many occasion to run across Blackwater. First, they are not working for the U.S. Military, they are private security hired to escort State Department Officials. They also have contracts for private companies sending materials and supply convoys into Iraq. They are however, by the terms of the contract, not allowed to escort convoys for contractors working on LOGCAP projects. Second, just as in every organization, there are good and bad apples. However, I found many Blackwater hirees to be a bunch of cowboys. Without gerenalizing, some of these guys are ex-special forces, marine recon and navy seals who were not good enought to make a career out of the military and are too psycho to get hired by a police force. Third, When these alleged crimes took place there was no status of forces agreement between the U.S. and Iraq and therefore the Iraq courts do not have jurisdiction over people working for the State Department (as these guys were).

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We need to get these men sentenced as soon as possible. Waiting for a trial seems a bit silly at this point.

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SuperLib: So you don't believe in due process?

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However, I found many Blackwater hirees to be a bunch of cowboys.

I actually met a guy claiming to be an ex Navy seal who was on his way to Iraq. He said that he didn't have a job or anything lined up, you basically show up in Iraq, show your credentials, and get hired with a private security company.

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SuperLib: Could happen but not really very likely. With the defeat of the Iraqi army and a ton of security contract available, Blackwater found themselves short of personnel (just like a lot of other contractors) and I fear they hired a number of people who were not suitable for the assignment.

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These guys need help. I smell combat stress as a factor here, because nobody in their right mind would start hurling grenades at a girl's school.

By the way, does anybody know the specifics of Blackwater's recruiting policy. I heard from an infantry officer who is a former colleague of mine that Blackwater were after vets at basically any cost. He reckons that the psych checks were rudimentary at best. Does anybody know anything about this?

Then again, throwing grenades at civilians is all very Saddam. Has anybody else here seen the "Desert Bus Trip Movie" that features a group of Saddam's flunkies conducting a kangaroo court. Without going into the gory details, the accussed ends up sitting down shackled in a wadi with a grenade shoved down his shirt. All rather distressing.......

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timorborder:

Go to the careers page of their web site and look up the qualifications. I am sure they have become more stringent since all the adverse publicity.

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Techall - Tried that, not much info available. Moreover, what information is provided is all in politically correct language. Doesn't seem like Blackwater are currently recruiting baby killers. I wonder why?

Actually, my friend who is currently a major in the infantry was contacted about joining a certain security company with deployments to Iraq. He turned them down flat when he found out that the person who gave them his contact details was a certified nutjob who had been retired from the army on psych grounds. Apparently the same person is currently in Iraq working for the security firm. It makes you wonder....

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timorborder: Sure does! Like I said, they probably tightened their recruiting policy (or what they have in open to public scruteny anyway) since all the bad publicity. Anyway, what your friend says confirms my coments about ex-military psychos.

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timorborder: They had a recruitment ad in the Stars and Stripes a few months back so it seems like they are aiming for vets with security experience.

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skip: "Look man, "condemn an entire 1.4 billion for the actions of a few" that is usually how things work, whether you like it or not."

No, it's not. It's the way things work in groups of people, not in sixths of the human race. People who actually think this way (that 1.4 billion are responsible for the acts of a very very very very tiny percentage after a number of zeroes) have mental problems, seriously.

As to the Blackwater group, again, since it's a small group (compared to Muslims, anyway), it's easy to put them all under the 'bad' category, and yet I still think that's wrong.

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techall - Thanks for your service.

We've had enough bad publicity in Iraq. I'll be glad when this is brought to closure and we go back to taking on the original war on terror. We got a mess in Afghanistan.

After reading some of the post written about Blackwater contractors, it's a wonder there haven't been many many more of these incidents. I remember several of these shootouts. < :-)

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If they are indeed guilty they should be charged. I have full trust in the US legal system.

But until I am sure this is not another Haditha media circus I reserve judgement.

And I have to ask - do the Left's fatuous pet theories about 'root causes' apply here? I noticed certain posters have labeled these guys 'terrorists'...

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terrorist - a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities

TooFarGone - You might be touching on something. These Blackwater Marauders aren't terrorist, they sound more like murderers. < :-)

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techall: So you don't believe in due process?

I'm an ultra progressive, meaning I only believe in due process for dictators and terrorists. If it's one of our own, well, I think we should just throw the book at them and skip the whole trial thingy. We've (the West) already oppressed people so much overall that throwing these men to the wolves is a nice token gesture and it makes me feel like I'm making a positive difference in the world. That's why I generally ignore mass graves with hundreds of thousands by Saddam while I go nuts when hearing that Americans might have killed 17. Crimes by those without power aren't really crimes anyway, they're cries for help.

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TooFarGone: "I noticed certain posters have labeled these guys 'terrorists'..."

That's because they are, in every sense of the word. Can you explain why they shouldn't be labelled as terrorists?

As for root causes, they are just plain evil, it seems. Can't fathom any other reason why they would shoot little kids and fire grenades into school houses. Hell, they're evil enough that one guy just couldn't stand it anymore and has rightly confessed to the crimes (in return for a plea bargain, of course). Why, what do you suggest? You think we should condemn all of Blackwater for this, or perhaps by extension the military in Iraq in general (even though these guys are private contractors)? I've already said you can't blame all on a few bad apples like these. But if you want to stick to your logic on how everyone should be branded the same as a few lone terrorists... well... perhaps it should be extended to all Americans (not quite 1.4 billion, but hey).

Fortunately, most humans don't think that way, and no one would dare categorize as badly as you tend to do.

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That's because they are [terrorists], in every sense of the word. Can you explain why they shouldn't be labelled as terrorists?

For starters, they are hired by our own State Dept.

And though they are being investigated by the US gov't nowhere does the prosecution label them or their actions as 'terrorist.'

Besides - You still capitalize the name 'Blackwater'. So we know even you don't regard them as the bad guys.

Try again?

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smith, you're not being very progressive. You can't just tell me that these men are evil because it makes no sense. I mean you don't go around saying that Palestinian terrorists are evil, do you? Of course not. The correct argument involves placing blame on Israel. Is Bin Laden a terrorist? Yep, and we have the US to blame, not his own "evilness."

Behind every terrorist is a crime committed upon the terrorist that forces him to use terrorism. What we need to be doing is asking what the Iraqi people did to these men that caused them to become terrorists, or you can't actually claim that they're terrorists. It doesn't make sense to hold these men accountable for their actions while at the same time accusing them of being terrorists. The contradiction is obvious.

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You think we should condemn all of Blackwater for this" Yes. the US of all countries should not use mercenaries or contractors to do work that should be done by uniformed persons as well as uniformed persons should not be doing work like sitting behind a desk.. They should read Art of War.

smitty, my point a few posts ago was what I believe is what most thing when we are pitted against one another. I believe its natural. I am sure if you go to some places in the US you will find me correct.

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These guards were not even supposed to leave the green zone at all, under strict orders. Yet they blatantly defied this order. They were looking for a fight.

Throwing grenades in girl's school. Shooting an unarmed civilian with his arms raised up. Women, children, all blasted like animals.

And notice how those who previously and blindly defended the atrocious actions of these cowboys are now suddenly, and quite smoothly, trying to worm their way out by saying, "if these guys are found guilty....."

If this were the other way around, or involved any other corporation/citizens besides Americans, these same people would be calling for their heads and forget about "waiting for all the facts." But then again I am not surprised, as usual still no expressions of remorse, regret, or ounce of sympathy for the 17 Iraqi civilians including children brutally gunned down, others injured. Kind of like how indiscriminate bombing campaigns kill innocent civilians along with "insurgents" alike, but are casually brushed off as "collateral damage."

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For starters, they are hired by our own State Dept.

And our government just cannot be linked to terrorists or even bad guys. That would be unfathomable. That would lead to a great many heads smoking and shuddering until they finally explode into the sky like its the fourth of July. Bush will posthumously pardon Saddam to resolve the contradiction.

About the only reason we cannot call them terrorists would be because they had no clear political agenda that I know of. That would make them simply blood-thirsty murderers or murderous nut cases if the allegations are true.

The contradiction is obvious.

You are forcing it. Terrorism on innocent people is never justified, but understanding what the terrorist is thinking is important. Sometimes terrorists have darn good reasons for being angry even if the way they direct that anger is TOTALLY wrong. And of course sometimes terrorists are just plain nuts or evil with no true belief in any cause but their own nuttiness and evil. To make matters more complicated, the two types work together, with the former doing the hands on job, such as blowing his or herself up, while the latter plots in a cave and uses the political cause to attract followers. I can't see these guys being either type since no cause is mentioned.

Though the actions certainly caused terror and were terrible, I am inclined to think these guys are simple homicidal maniacs rather than terrorists if they are guilty.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terrorist

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TooFarGone: "For starters, they are hired by our own State Dept."

Doesn't NOT make them terrorists. They instilled terror in the people they attacked without mercy, before ending their lives without reason. The people attacked were innocent. Just because they were American, or hired by your state dept. does not mean they are not terrorists in every sense of the world. But I threw that out to you as a trick question -- because I know that you think the main definition of 'terrorism' requires that 'Muslim' be written in there somewhere.

SuperLib: "You can't just tell me that these men are evil because it makes no sense. I mean you don't go around saying that Palestinian terrorists are evil, do you? Of course not. The correct argument involves placing blame on Israel. Is Bin Laden a terrorist? Yep, and we have the US to blame, not his own "evilness."

Wow you've sure lost it. I do go around saying Palestinian terrorists are evil, as a matter of fact, but nowhere do I say that all Palestinians are evil as a result. Likewise, I do not in any thread or any comment accuse all Jews of attacking Palestinians, and usually reserve that for the Israeli government nutjobs. When I point out that Obama was trained in guerilla tactics by the CIA to oust Russian occupants, it is to remind the foolhardy posters who call for war here and war there that all too often the person/country they wish to war against was instilled in his/her current position often with US support, and they shouldn't rush to repeat past errors or reinforce what said leaders use as defense if/when they attack others.

But go ahead, SuperLib, post a quotation from any single comment that says I defend any terrorists, with the condition that you cannot simply say I defend terrorists by attacking GWB or something equally as stupid.

"It doesn't make sense to hold these men accountable for their actions while at the same time accusing them of being terrorists"

I realize you're attempting to be ironic here, but you fail. Again, I challenge you to show me a post where I say terrorists are not responsible for their actions. In the meantime, I'll leave it to you guys to admit that these Blackwater guards are nothing BUT terrorists, who went on a rampage and committed crimes as heinous as attacks by terrorists on US targets, etc. The location and the means may have differed than in some of the aforementioned attacks on US or other nations' interests/peoples, but the mindframe is exactly the same -- insanity.

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smithinjapan, to add to what you say, if one is to combat terrorism without seeking to understand the causes for individual cases, then the only method left to combat it will be violence and it will be sloppily done. People like you and I analyze the causes so that we can reduce the violence and ensure that what violence must be done is applied accurately. To allow the sloppy approach is to take a much greater risk in inducing others to become terrorists. That would ensure the vicious cycle continues.

We analyze the causes to find solutions, or even to point out that all sides are so wrong that it may be best to avoid full involvement and stick to diplomacy. We may also seek to generate understanding of or even sympathy for the terrorist, but it is never to excuse the killing or terrorizing of innocents. It is certainly possible feel sorry for a person's difficult past or reasons for anger while not excusing their harming of the innocent for some of us, although some narrow folks need everything to be black and white.

But in this case the cause of action would seem to be plain old lunacy and nothing more.

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These guards were not even supposed to leave the green zone at all, under strict orders. Yet they blatantly defied this order. They were looking for a fight.

Throwing grenades in girl's school. Shooting an unarmed civilian with his arms raised up. Women, children, all blasted like animals.

Nice rant....You should look things up before you post.

They instilled terror in the people they attacked without mercy, before ending their lives without reason. The people attacked were innocent.

Just KNOW this to be the true don't you after your thorough investigation.

Anyway for the rational here...... The initial embassy report on what happened that day.

Embassy report

It was described as a "spot report" and not intended to be authoritative. It was dated the day of the attacks.

According to those accounts, Blackwater teams encountered a car bomb, a shootout and a standoff between Blackwater guards and Iraqi security forces. Each Blackwater team usually consists of three or four armoured vehicles.

The report said the incident began when a car bomb exploded at 11.53 near a financial compound in Baghdad, while a US official was visiting. It also said:

Two Blackwater teams transported the official back to the fortified Green Zone Another Blackwater unit was dispatched to the scene of the car bomb to deal with the aftermath of the blast. This unit, however, was then ambushed and "engaged with small arms fire" from "multiple nearby locations" in Nisoor Square. One of the Blackwater teams that had transported the official back to the Green Zone was re-dispatched to help out in Nisoor Square. The re-deployed unit found itself stuck at an intersection in Nisoor Square and was confronted by Iraqi police and army. A US forces quick reaction team was sent to help rescue the unit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7033332.stm

The trail will bring the truth to light, but it's pretty indisputable a car bomb went off and a firefight incured. That is what started this whole chain of events. I'm withholding judgement until I hear the facts presented at trail.

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sailwind: good post and good info. I somewhat re-cant my post calling for them to be hung at this point. I do hope you and your info is correct, but if it is not and they indeed did do what they have been accused of, then I go back and call for their hangings in Iraq. Let a US court, which at this moment I believe won't work in their favor, find

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sailwind: You guys are just DYING to defend these guys for some reason, and yet when it's the other way around, not only do you not doubt for a second that the people were terrorists and not innocents, but some of you condemn an entire PEOPLE because of a few! It really is amazing... really...

And yet, in spite of your desperate attempts to defend these guys, you still have one major glitch -- one of the group has come forward and not only admitted guilt to the charges, but is ratting out the others willingly. Sounds like the nail in the coffin to me. And when his truths come out, what are you going to say then?

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Bah, in a lawless hellhole expect these things to happen. We can always rely on the Americans occupying Iraq to raise questionable doubt to placate the po-invasion crowd, and everybody else will scream for their blood before the facts come out.

Like the soldiers involved in the Haditha incident, I doubt this incident is full of innocent bodyguards...

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Blackwater training some Canadian troops David Pugliese, CanWest News Service Published: Saturday, September 29, 2007

OTTAWA -- The Canadian Forces are using a controversial private security firm to train some of its troops sent to Afghanistan.

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I totally agree with smithinjapan, as I have myself already pointed out if this involved anyone else besides Americans as the perpetrators, the same blind blackwater/USA supporters here would have no qualms about NOT waiting for all of the evidence or story to come out. In those cases it is perfectly acceptable to jump to conclusions and implicate an entire country, race, or religion.

And I STILL do not see any expression of understanding or sympathy for the Iraqi lives lost here by some. I think people would respect and understand more those blindly defending these criminals if they at least offered some sort of sympathy for the Iraqi's here. But as usual, none whatsoever. "Collateral damage." No wonder many parts of the world have such a negative view of Americans.

And why is someone digging up an INITIAL 'spot report' as a form of "evidence" that there was a firefight and ambush, when subsequent FBI and military reports showed that many of these killings were in fact unjustified?

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0439965120071005

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/14/world/middleeast/14blackwater.html?_r=1

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I'm confused.

On the one hand I read......the same blind blackwater/USA supporters here would have no qualms about NOT waiting for all of the evidence or story to come out.

Then I read....I think people would respect and understand more those blindly defending these criminals.

Think that pretty much sums it up on this one as to who is really waiting for the whole story to come out. It ain't rjd that is for sure.

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Life is good in a black and white world.

Carry on heroes of the faith!

Taka

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You know I hear all this stuff from posters and I think as much as anything else. I just can't understand why these guys had to be cowboys.

I'm just disappointed in the actions of these men. As much as I've been against the whole damn Iraq War I'm disappointed that Americans took the low road and hurt people for no reason, if this really happened as they are accused. < :-)

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go Blackwater. they have done very well.

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and Americans wonder why they are hated in so many parts of the world. Blowing up kids with hand grenades probably helps to explain it

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and Americans wonder why they are hated in so many parts of the world.

They hate us so much they come by the millions to take the most menial jobs available.

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adaydream at 11:44 PM JST - 9th December I'm just disappointed in the actions of these men. As much as I've been against the whole damn Iraq War I'm disappointed that Americans took the low road and hurt people for no reason, if this really happened as they are accused. < :-)

I would like to correct something, members of Blackwater Worldwide are not part of the US Military. Blackwater Worldwide mercenary company sells it's services to whoever is paying.

I for one feel that mercenaries have no place working for the United States. I find hiring mercs insulting and bad policy that President Bush and his administration has followed. We do not need groups like this tainting our name. They need to go and go quickly.

I would also like to tell folks that they have a no bid contract. Wonder who they know?

Blackwater Worldwide needs to be released from service as soon as possible. They and any mercenary company can not be trusted.

What really surprised me were the amount of folks here who praise this group and hold them in the same regards as our fighting men and women.

Blackwater "WORLDWIDE" needs to go!

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