Boy Scouts approve plan to accept openly gay boys, but not leaders

This will cause a split into Gay and Straight factions. Why can't they just dyb, dyb, dyb??

So begins the downfall of the Boy Scouts of America.

RR

I wish the world scouting organization would / could expel the BS of America. They should have been stripped of the right to use the "Boy Scout" name long ago. They have long been a disgrace and this tiny step means so little. They still politicize and ostracise. How did sexuality ever come into the rules in the first place? It has NOTHING to do with scouting.

Boy Scouts approve plan to accept openly gay boys, but not leaders

Welcome to 2013.

“We are deeply saddened,” said Frank Page, president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s executive committee. “Homosexual behavior is incompatible with the principles enshrined in the Scout oath and Scout law.”

It's 2013.

Some of the scouting group’s largest sponsors are relatively conservative denominations that have supported the broad ban on gay members and leaders — notably the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Southern Baptist churches.

WTF does a church have to do with this. They need to just go away and worry about their own and leave the rest of us in peace. I am not a member so stay out the lives of other people.

Sixty-one percent supported the policy of excluding gays

It's 2013.

Huh ?

WTF does a church have to do with this.

The church started it. It makes a lot of sense that you get to say how something you started gets run the way you wanted doesn't it?

Welcome to 2013.

Welcome to 2013, where people and organizations have the right to have differing opinions on morality.

WTF does a church have to do with this

BSA has always encouraged religious affiliation, and most troops are sponsored in part or whole by a church.

They need to just go away and worry about their own and leave the rest of us in peace. I am not a member so stay out the lives of other people.

You are also apparently not a member of the BSA, so what business of yours is it who they do or do not allow into their organization? It's 2013.

Morality evolves. At least for some.

Morality evolves. At least for some.

Good for you. You are welcome to your superior morality, but some of us barbarians wish to remain in the dark ages. We shall respect and envy your enlightenment, and merely ask you respect our right to be intolerant mongrels, relics of a bygone age.

The church started it. It makes a lot of sense that you get to say how something you started gets run the way you wanted doesn't it?

Sorry, what? The church (which church?) started what?

Are you calling Lord Baden-Powell a church?

I don't think this is really a good solution...I wish they would either choose to allow gays or not. It doesn't seem to be fair to the boys who are gay; they can be a member until a certain age and then are banned. Even if they wanted to give back yo the scouting community after it has been such a big oart of their lufe, they wont be allowed. Also, it doesn't give them gay role models who can share the same passions as themselves. I hope that they really take time to more fully evaluate the situation.

Boys who tend to become Scouts are by and large not "bad boys". There is a code for them to live by which includes morals and I'm sure a good dose of 'no sex before marriage' type stuff (and probably no masterbation)'. Apart from anything else I am not convinced that a young 12 - 15 year old is even aware that he is homosexual nor would he have strong sexual feelings towards his fellow Boy Scouts. So for me I think it is a storm in a teacup. But I would not like to send any son of mine on a camping trip with an openly gay man who likes to dress up in uniforms and spend his spare time with young boys.

bfg4987: You are welcome to your superior morality, but some of us barbarians wish to remain in the dark ages. We shall respect and envy your enlightenment, and merely ask you respect our right to be intolerant mongrels, relics of a bygone age.

I don't support being tolerant of other people's intolerance. If you want to disallow gays in this day and age, pay the price for it.

There has always been a strong suspicion that Baden-Powell was gay. Was a "confirmed bachelor" (Victorian euphemism for gay) and several of his writings have a whiff of Homo-erotiscism about them.

SimondB: because straight men who like to dress up in uniforms and spend time with young boys are so different? I don't want to really point it out, but catholic priests seem to fit that profile and well, lets just say they don't have the best reputation at the moment...

americans are funny... it's okay for them if a gay soldier protects them from terrorism, but not okay if they join the boys scouts. enjoy your cheese burgers.

Scout law is anti gay?

Well I never!

.

I don't support being tolerant of other people's intolerance. If you want to disallow gays in this day and age, pay the price for it.

Pay the price for it? You mean organizations like the BSA HAVE to be forced to adopt a policy that THEY feel uncomfortable or that conflicts with their personal morality? Why do they have to conform to accept gays if they choose not to, that's their policy their right. If they want to force feed people that don't want it, they should then start their own version of a similar BSA and if heterosexuals want to join, then let them. This is going to have a lot of bad repercussions coming.

americans are funny... it's okay for them if a gay soldier protects them from terrorism, but not okay if they join the boys scouts. enjoy your cheese burgers.

What an idiotic analogy. Being in the trenches of war and the soldier next to me are fighting for the same thing. He/she are doing their duty as a soldier, so I would protect them, the same way they would protect me, but the BS are NOT soldiers going off and fighting in a war. It's totally voluntary, they can leave anytime they want and they don't have to worry about someone firing a RPG at them. I also don't get what a cheeseburger has to do with your childish comment, but...whatever...

Do they have mixed Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts? Can the leader of Boy Scouts be a woman? Why not?

It's half a step in the right direction. Half a step but an encouraging one. Of course it doesn't make much sense to accept a gay scout only to kick him out when he transitions to becoming a scout leader.

A win-win for closeted Scoutmasters.

So little gay scouts are magically transformed into big straight scouts, America sure is a screwy place. Glad I live where sexuality isn't a discriminatory factor.

It's great that Anglo-Saxon countries try to repair their older mistakes, but still historically the original psychology simply moved the religious doctrine on its field of research and the psychology should be blamed in the first place for making gay people social outcasts. Without psychology there wouldn't be even a word for same sex relationships. Just 100 years ago, the same states which are now proud of being "gay friendly" were almost as strict in the sexual field as the modern Arab world. Yet some people are disturbed that the society doesn't want to change its mind in a blink of an eye.

Second thing is that this so called "homophobia" didn't come out of thin air, it was created as a result of the negative label people gave to the gay people, which was fueled by psychological doctrine (which now serves almost like a "religious" moral codex). But now people suddenly changed their minds and it's a problem that there are still many people who believe in the traditional point of view. I know there are even psychologists in many areas which "cure" homosexuality. But in fact, they are not curing anything and making the poor man or woman a victim of the system, in which they are labeled negatively.

Last but not least: It's not that otherwise people would be perfectly fine with sexual minorities. It's quite common for a man (especially male) to hate all the things he doesn't do or doesn't identify with. There's nothing we can do about it. People with limited point of view often expand their local thoughts to a global scale, but it has nothing to do with the real picture. But many people are hurt in the process.

So little gay scouts are magically transformed into big straight scouts, America sure is a screwy place. Glad I live where sexuality isn't a discriminatory factor.

And where would that paradise be? Where do you live where sexuality isn't a factor, please tell us? I would really like to know.

I don't support being tolerant of other people's intolerance

isn't that an oxymoron?

So let me get this right; Ok list Openly gay boy scout Secretly gay boy scout Secretly gay boy scout leader

Not ok list Openly gay boy scout leader.

Anyone else see a lawsuit coming.

I don't think this is really a good solution...I wish they would either choose to allow gays or not.

I agree. The Boy Scouts are being a bit wishy-washy here. They should either be for gays or against them and accept the consequences either way. None of these half-way measures.

As for my opinion, I think if the Boy Scout Council wants to accept gays, then that is fine, but I also think the Churches that run the local Boy Scout chapters should have the right to refuse prospective members who do not meet their moral criteria. Churches should not be forced to accept something they consider a sin.

In other words, like many Christian religious sects, they'll just deny homosexuality and abuse the kids anyhow.

Admitting who you really are, gay or straight, should require no laws or conditions for or against. When are people going to get with the times and realize that being gay is not a fashion statement, but simply the way a person is, and better yet, when are we going to accept it as we did waaaaaaay back like in Ancient Rome? Rome didn't fall because of the way people are, but because of the nature of greed and demanding one person's way should be the only way. It seems we learn, very.... very slowly. A scout leader who is openly gay is no more likely to commit any crime than one who is a hidden pervert but does not want to reveal himself. In fact, it's not even comparable. Give the people their rights!

Frank Page, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's executive committee:

"Homosexual behavior is incompatible with the principles of the Scout oath and Scout law"

It is not. However, Scouts do promise to be:

Trustworthy

Loyal

Helpful

Friendly

Courteous

Kind

Obedient

Cheerful

Thrifty

Brave

Clean

and Reverent

Could be trouble at the summer camp though! Are gay scouts and straight scouts allowed to sleep in the same tent?? No different from allowing straight scouts to sleep in the same tent as girl scouts.

As I am an Eagle Scout the news is mixed. On one hand I've always been for the equal treatment of homosexuals in the public sector regarding treatment under the law, for contractual purposes, for taxes, and for benefits. That said, the BSA as a private charter group has the right to exclude any members that it sees fit for any reason. I think that the BSA has been a positive influence on many individuals especially through inner city programs such as the Venture Scouts and I'd hate to see the program collapse if the Church of Latter Day Saints and other religious institutions pulls their financial support.

Churches and religious organizations hold more than 70% of the charters, provide almost all US troops with free meeting locations (schools almost always charge rent as the BSA is a religious organization), and provide a huge chunk of the funding for scouting as a whole. Without those funds I don't see a lot of troops being able to sustain themselves, especially in lower income neighborhoods where the program does the most good.

It would be one thing if gay / civil rights groups were willing to chip in to fill the funding gap left by the withdrawal of these institutions but nobody has stepped up to the plate.

WTF does a church have to do with this. They need to just go away and worry about their own and leave the rest of us in peace. I am not a member so stay out the lives of other people.

The BSA, at its core is a religious institution and has, and will in the foreseeable future, continue to disallow atheists to join it at any level.

Also, almost all troops are hosted, sponsored, and chartered by a religious organization. Very few places will allow a large group to meet on a weekly basis free of charge and even fewer are willing to sponsor the troops liability insurance. Because the BSA is a religious organization very few libraries, schools, or public buildings can allow them to meet free of charge and none of those can sponsor them.

If you want to disallow gays in this day and age, pay the price for it.

Right now they are paying the price for allowing them in. You can toot your little horn all day but the fact remains that the BSA Council took a very daring step that may very well destroy the entire institution and all you and other anti-discrimination groups are doing is saying "About time", meanwhile it could leave thousands of troops without meeting places, funding, charters, and any means of sending underprivileged scouts to camp or national events.

“We are deeply saddened,” said Frank Page, president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s executive committee. “Homosexual behavior is incompatible with the principles enshrined in the Scout oath and Scout law.”

Openly sexual behavior of any variety seems incompatible with the Scouts' moral principles. Mr. Page should concern himself more with the high rate of teen-age pregnancies in the so-called "bible belt" states where the Southern Baptists predominate.

If only everyone would embrace and keep the Scouts' promises, the world would be a better place.

If you want to disallow gays in this day and age, pay the price for it.

What price would that be?

When are people going to get with the times and realize that being gay is not a fashion statement, but simply the way a person is,

If you really want to believe this statement, that's fine. Just know that it is based only in sentiment, not science.

americans are funny... it's okay for them if a gay soldier protects them from terrorism, but not okay if they join the boys scouts. enjoy your cheese burgers.

BSA is a private organization.

isn't that an oxymoron?

It is, but don't expect them to ever admit it.

As I am an Eagle Scout the news is mixed.

Just to clarify. Your views are your own of course. Other Eagles may have different views.

That said, the BSA as a private charter group has the right to exclude any members that it sees fit for any reason.

And, conversely the organization also has the right, as it did, to decide to allow the inclusion of any members that it sees fit.

I'd hate to see the program collapse if the Church of Latter Day Saints and other religious institutions pulls their financial support.

The Church of LDS has come out in support of the policy. "Sexual orientation has not previously been – and is not now – a disqualifying factor for boys who want to join Latter-day Saint Scout troops. Willingness to abide by standards of behavior continues to be our compelling interest,"

Interesting to note, because it seems to be assumed to be the case, but not all Christian denominations or other religions necessarily reject homosexuality as a morally reprehensible.

Also, one could argue that the discriminatory policy, now of the past, cost the BSA as well for example in terms of the loss of sponsorship of the DoD in 2004 and preferential access to governmental resources.

It may indeed cost the BSA some membership although one would assume that if, for example, Southern Baptists decided to leave nothing would prevent them from creating their own Faith-based scouting organisation. Perhaps the more tolerant policy will even attract those who were previously excluded and those who object to the discriminatory policy.

In any case, sometimes there's a cost to doing the right thing. So be it. I'd prefer a smaller organization I can look up to than a bigger one that teaches it's okay to exclude Mikey the gay scout.

If only everyone would embrace and keep the Scouts' promises, the world would be a better place.

Quite probably -- although it would look a lot more like it was being run by the United Nations.

Just to clarify the LDS position (as a former LDS member), the Church does not openly support gays.

The LDS view is that being gay is not a sin as long as you live a life of abstinence. Everyone, regardless of sexual preference, is commanded to obey the law of chastity (no sex before marriage). The thing is the LDS church is quite strongly opposed to same-sex unions, and as far as I know does not recognise same-sex marriages as legitimate marriage before God - which basically means, it's okay to be gay, as long as you don't have gay sex.

As a former Boy Scout, I am appalled by this decision. The Boy Scout Institution was founded by Lord Baden Powell and was always based on Christian principles, but was always open to all boys who were willing to take the Boy Scout Oath, in the case of the United Kingdom, that meant to pledge Duty to God and the Queen. In recent times, there has been a deliberate agenda to remove all those Christian principles from the institution, to the detriment of it. There have always been boys and leaders with homosexual tendencies within the organisation. Some Boy Scout leaders in the last have been jailed because of committing homosexual acts with boys. What is abhorrent about this decision is that homosexual boys can now be open about their sexual preferences. That is unnecessary, and is detrimental to the entire ethos of the once great institution that was the Boy Scouts. Since a large majority of Boy Scouts meet in faith based buildings, this decision is going to cause nothing but trouble.

As a former Boy Scout, I am appalled by this decision.

As a former Boy Scout, I am delighted by this decision.

In recent times, there has been a deliberate agenda to remove all those Christian principles from the institution, to the detriment of it.

Nonsense. BTW, did you ask yourself.. WWJD? A gay scout can be just as faithful and respecting of his duty to God as expected of him by the BSA as any other.

Section 1. Declaration of Religious Principle, clause 1. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

There have always been boys and leaders with homosexual tendencies within the organisation.

Yep, and we've managed so far. No different now except for doing away with the fear...

Some Boy Scout leaders in the last have been jailed because of committing homosexual acts with boys.

You're muddying the waters. Pedophiles, not homosexuals.

What is abhorrent about this decision is that homosexual boys can now be open about their sexual preferences.

Nothing abhorrent whatsoever. See above. No need for there to be any difference. We're not asking pre-teens and teens to discuss, advertise, promote etc. their sexual preferences.

That is unnecessary, and is detrimental to the entire ethos of the once great institution that was the Boy Scouts.

On the contrary. This was necessary and entirely to the credit of this organisation.

Since a large majority of Boy Scouts meet in faith based buildings, this decision is going to cause nothing but trouble. Those troops have to abide by the Charter and Bylaws and Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America just as before whether they're chartered to a church, temple, synagogue, or mosque.

Section 1. Freedom, clause 3. In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faith be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church.

When are people going to get with the times and realize that being gay is not a fashion statement, but simply the way a person is,

If you really want to believe this statement, that's fine. Just know that it is based only in sentiment, not science.

I have no idea why my previous post was removed, containing nothing malicious. I can't let this statement pass. "Being gay is not a fashion statement" is not based on science?? So scientists think being gay is a fashion statement?? Please point me to a link!

Since a large majority of Boy Scouts meet in faith based buildings, this decision is going to cause nothing but trouble.

The below wasn't supposed to be part of the quote: Those troops have to abide by the Charter and Bylaws and Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America just as before whether they're chartered to a church, temple, synagogue, or mosque.

And where would that paradise be? Where do you live where sexuality isn't a factor, please tell us? I would really like to know.

I never said sexuality isn't a factor but my country NZ has legalized gay marriage and makes any discrimination a crime. Is it perfect? Hell no, but the stance of the paranoid US religious nuts isn't tolerated here despite a fairly wide proliferation of bigoted homophobic right wing dribble.

"Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation was outlawed several years later in amendments to the Human Rights Act." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_New_Zealand

Heterosexism at its best.