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Brexit campaigning suspended after 'Remain' MP shot dead

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“A vote to withdraw would be irrevocable, a grievous blow to the post-1945 liberal world order.”

Yes.

11 ( +16 / -5 )

Just what the "Remain" campaign needed. Now watch all the latest polls switch in favor of "remain".

-20 ( +9 / -29 )

The world lost a champion for victims of war and violence. Rest in Peace dear lady and my deepest condolences.This is what happens when people trade in hate for their own political purposes.

17 ( +22 / -5 )

Just what the "Remain" campaign needed. Now watch all the latest polls switch in favor of "remain".

Almost too convenient, isn't it? Makes one wonder...

-23 ( +12 / -35 )

My gut feeling g tells me if a Brexit happens, Scotland will rethink staying within the UK.

RIP to the MP.

11 ( +14 / -3 )

It's hard to describe how shocked I was by this. It seems like the exaggerated rhetoric about how the European Union has stealthily taken control of Britain against our will, how the European Court of Justice has somehow replaced the British legal system, how we no longer live in a democracy, how our 'birth right' has been taken away from us, etc etc, have come home to roost.

We all understand that these are exaggerations intended to score political points, and we might even be able to pick out the grain of truth within them, but there are many mentally ill people out there who believe every word of these conspiracy theories. I've spoken with Brexit supporters who appear to be entirely normal but then begin telling me that the Bilderberg Group is behind the Euro. Words have consequences.

It’s legitimate to say that if people feel they’ve lost control completely, and we have lost control of our borders completely as members of the EU, and if people feel voting doesn’t change anything, then violence is the next step.

--Nigel Farage

13 ( +18 / -5 )

Coincidence or not, democracy doesn't mean killing people because you disagree with their opinion. This is sad, she had 2 kids.

17 ( +18 / -1 )

My gut feeling g tells me if a Brexit happens, Scotland will rethink staying within the UK.

Scotland may vote to leave the UK, other countries may vote to leave the EU, even France may decide to pull out - there are growing movements in all countries to pull out of the EU, and a successful Brexit would encourage them all. In short, Brexit threatens the EU as an entity, and that means a lot of very rich and powerful people and groups are threatened. They may even see it as the future of the world being threatened.

Ask yourself who this murder actually helps. Maybe he is a lone whacko, and possibly he shouted Britain First (according to just one witness, from what I read). Or maybe there's a lot more to it. I just hope the perpetrator stays alive long enough to answer these questions.

-13 ( +7 / -20 )

Oh dear! The conspiracy theories have begun. Whatever, it is hate that killed her and it is mostly hate behind the Brexit campaign, orchestrated by some shifty, big-ego characters interested primarily in their own futures.

13 ( +18 / -5 )

I really hope I am wrong, but I agree with commanteer. If the UK votes Brexit then the prime minister, the chancellor, and a host of high-profile politicians will have to resign. Remain were behind in the polls and this vote has a very high price. I just hope that my theory is wrong although nothing will save a mother and a wife. She fought for human rights and for good causes.

-6 ( +6 / -12 )

This is great that the banks and corporations will be slapped in the head on a Brexit while Britian deals with social issues that neither the banks nor corporations were interested in ever addressing.

This isn't great for immediate prosperity and runs the risk of extremist justification of views, but in the long haul, any reduction on globalization is a good thing and will benefit local economies. Fair trade not free trade can rebuild.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Oh dear! The conspiracy theories have begun. Whatever, it is hate that killed her

I am glad you have all the answers. I can only envy your certainty. Not saying there is a conspiracy, just that it would be foolish not to consider it, given the circumstances.

-20 ( +3 / -23 )

Not all the answers, commanteer, but, apart from fear, it is probably only hate that induces someone to shoot and stab an innocent several time. It is not happiness, love or compassion, that's for sure.

9 ( +9 / -0 )

sad day for the UK,,RIP MS. Cox

10 ( +12 / -2 )

Oh dear! The conspiracy theories have begun. Whatever, it is hate that killed her and it is mostly hate behind the Brexit campaign, orchestrated by some shifty, big-ego characters interested primarily in their own futures.

This is bizarre and does not fit because this rarely happens in the UK. Gun crime against a politician/ political assasinations are unheard of. And the cost of a Brexit is much higher for the current establishment than it is for any British citizen. I cannot think of any far-right member who would go as far as assasinating a politician for Brexit/ Remain. And this guy certainly intended to kill as he had both a gun and a knife. No conspiracy theories here, this murder just does not fit.

-4 ( +5 / -9 )

I have to agree with those who think there is more to this than meets the eye. The stakes of Brexit are enormous for the vested interests. And The unfortunate victim was the perfect target for bringing on the sympathy vote.

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

apart from fear, it is probably only hate that induces someone to shoot and stab an innocent several time

Well, yes, it is obviously not an act of love.The same goes for the massacre in Orlando, the murder of Pim Fortuyn and Theo Van Gogh, also gruesomely murdered in broad daylight. Sadly, I don't remember many people decrying the words of hate that may have motivated those murders, probably because the murderers were not right wing.

Again, I don't have the answers, but the unusual nature of this murder, the timing and the effect it will have in stalling or stopping Brexit (and the sheer amount of money and global power involved) makes me wonder if he wasn't encouraged by someone to act out this way.

-12 ( +2 / -14 )

I would be very interested to know how he came by the gun. I expect he will "commit suicide" whilst in custody so that there is no chance of anyone finding out.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

actually, this almost could have been predicted.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

A fine woman. One of the good guys and a mother of youngsters. RIP.

A bit early for the conspiracy theories, isn't it? Let's see what is unearthed about this animal first before having smoky rooms with James Bond villains/diabolical politicians/bureaucrats/business tycoons cackling in your heads.

12 ( +12 / -0 )

@commanteer

Not saying there is a conspiracy, just that it would be foolish not to consider it, given the circumstances

@TigersTokyoDome

No conspiracy theories here, this murder just does not fit.

What are the circumstances? Why doesn't this murder 'fit'? The current evidence points to a man who murdered a pro-remain politician and witnesses report that he shouted 'Britain first'. Those are the circumstances, that is the evidence.

If we turn up even a shred of evidence to support your theory that the remain campaign hatched an elaborate plot to murder Jo Cox in order to win the referendum, then I'm sure it will be investigated by the police. However, your ideas are just wild speculation and this is what makes them 100% conspiracy theories.

13 ( +13 / -0 )

what is unearthed. hmm. probably the usual mentally unstable, acting alone, holding a grudge, failed marriage etc profile.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

So we know nothing about the guy other than that he is 52 years old and just murdered someone in cold blood while shouting Britain First?

Yeah, clearly we can conclude from this that he was working for the remain campaign and murdering one of their own while making it look like the work of a radical Brexiter was the most effective way for them to boost their chances in the referendum.

Totally makes sense. She was probably in on it too, right? Makes way more sense than the idea that this was the work of a nut job ultra nationalist. At no point in history have such people ever acted in a violent manner. Ever. If he had been an actual nut job ultra nationalist, he would have just tried to sit down and have a rational debate about the merits of leaving the EU with her. Pro-EU people, in contrast, murder each other all the time, so yeah, this definitely fits the pattern.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

"what is unearthed. hmm. probably the usual mentally unstable, acting alone, holding a grudge, failed marriage etc profile."

Well, let's see first, eh? That seems to be the sensible thing to do.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Interesting new tactics by the Brexiteers, plain old street executions of the opposition. It's unfortunate there seems to be so many traitors inside developed countries these days

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@Tony 'Just what the "Remain" campaign needed. Now watch all the latest polls switch in favor of "remain".'

Nick Griffin said the same. I'd rather shoot myself in the rectum than agree with anything that loathsome individual had to say.

This news is a tragedy. It's a tragedy for her family. But also a tragedy for decent people who believe in democracy. No one should be scoring political points today. And no one should be speaking about politics.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

He had a history of mental illness. Unclear if there was any political motivation at all.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Oh dear! The conspiracy theories have begun. Whatever, it is hate that killed her and it is mostly hate behind the Brexit campaign, orchestrated by some shifty, big-ego characters interested primarily in their own futures.

Because we all know that MI6 and the CIA, etc are so above politacal assassinations right? The weapon was left behind. That doesn't make any sense for the "hater/lone gunman" theory. WAY too convienent. The globalists plan is in serious jeopardy if Briton leaves the EU. Look what they've done to Greece? Banksters!

-15 ( +3 / -18 )

And The unfortunate victim was the perfect target for bringing on the sympathy vote. oh dear here come all the conspiracy theories, the Brexiteers will try anything to switch blame away from them. Its this crazed nationalist views that has put the UK in this position in the first place.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Violence is not the answer.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

the murder of Pim Fortuyn and Theo Van Gogh, also gruesomely murdered in broad daylight

why not throw in Benazir Bhutto while you're at it?

This was a senseless murder by a local man with - it seems - learning difficulties or mental illness or both. There has been speculation about possible motives.

Let's leave the conjecture to the tabloids, and reflect on the value and sanctity of human life.

We can be grateful for a mother who gave so much love and energy to her conviction that there is infinitely more that unites us than divides us.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Conspiracies are an addiction for some. They want to feel like they are special and have inside knowledge on world events.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

The mentally-ill killer, with just enough intelligence to be receptive to the sirensong of rightwing nationalist ideology (i.e., that of English Nazi types), and suffering from emotional instability fuelled by self-hate turned outwards towards the Other ( foreigners, women, LGBTIs etc.) and aggravated by years of brainwashing by the rightwing gutter press, could form the presumptive profile of the usual suspects. The firearm most likely had been given him by someone of machiavellian intelligence from the fetid ranks of his fascist enablers and then, like a West-Yorkshire version of "The Manchurian Candidate", the assassin was sicced on a young, defenseless woman who embodied the finest qualities of selflessness and public service. I still remember first hearing the haunting words of Bob Dylan fifty years ago, a message that seared into my heart forever: "Only a Pawn in their Game". I only hope her murder will serve to galvanize the British people to reject bigotry and hate and extirpate the toxic influence of those purveyors of rightwing nationalism and ignorance who must share the blame for Jo Cox's tragic sacrifice.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

How come it's not act of terrorism?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

"Because we all know that MI6 and the CIA, etc are so above politacal assassinations right? The weapon was left behind. That doesn't make any sense for the "hater/lone gunman" theory. WAY too convienent. The globalists plan is in serious jeopardy if Briton leaves the EU. Look what they've done to Greece? Banksters!"

Could you run us through your version of what happened here? Conspiracy theorists are never short on imagination and I'm not expecting a perfect timeline of the plot and the identity of the plotters but a general overview would be interesting.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

There was a similar event in Cheltenham UK 16 years ago, where the liberal MP Nigel Jones was attacked and a colleague of his named Andrew Pennington was killed by a mentally unstable constituent who burst into his office armed with a sword:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/mar/23/garyfinn

This is probably a similar case of a mentally unhinged individual with a serious grudge against his elected member. It's horrific, but it has happened before, and will no-doubt happen again. The individual who murdered Jo Cox favoured Brexit, and in 2000 another individual was upset about home repossession, but there is no conspiracy here. Jo Cox was a good MP who cared deeply for others. She didn't deserve this, and neither did her family.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Heartfelt condolences to Jo Cox family, Husband Brendan, Children, Cuillin and Lejla. The alledged killer is reported to have a history of psychiatric problems.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Superlib and Jimzo, not saying this is a conspiracy, just that nothing shouldn't be ruled out so quickly. I've asked but still no answer from anyone of you "level headed" people how building #7 can freefall in less than 7 seconds without demolitions. You can't, and won't, because some just want to live on fantasy island. This murder is child's play to those who planned and executed 911 and used to convince the modern world to start an endless war.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

RIP Jo Cox.

All the fears hyped about foreigners taking over the UK have come back to roost. Remain campaigners got called "traitors", and now Jo Cox is dead. I hope the Leave camp takes a very close look at their behaviour, and the political parties take an even closer look at their behavior over the last decade, behavior which left many UK nationals exiled abroad because they were married to "foreigners".

4 ( +4 / -0 )

All I can see is a country tearing itself apart after years of divisive politics.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Problem - Reaction - Solution.

RIP Jo Cox.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

" The attacker was named by British media as local man Tommy Mair, with neighbours quoted as saying he was a “loner” who kept to himself. The Southern Poverty Law Center said he was a supporter of a neo-Nazi group based in the United States and had what it called a long history with white nationalism. "

Oh boy. If this is confirmed, then this is all we will hear about --- his ideoloy, his beliefs, and how bad and deadly they are.

However, if the attacker in case like this is a jihadist, the ideology, the beliefs and their content are immediately blanked out, and media and politicians will only talk about "a young man" or some such. And the posters here will stress the peaceful majority, and how all beliefs have their violent misunderstanders.

One standard for one group, another standard for another --- that is how this works, folks.

I so hope that this murder does not swing back the scales to the "remain" campaign, which the globalists so dearly want.

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

You don't need a conspiracy to have seen this coming. The debate parted from the facts quite some time ago with reason replaced by emotion, hate and jingoistic nationalism. The hate filled rhetoric has created a hugely divisive, intimidatory atmosphere. It's not a big leap to imagine someone taking this kind of action. A life contribution and compassion wasted for no good reason.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Very sad indeed. This is a political assassination all right even if the shooter was mentally unstable. He knew what he was doing and why he was doing it. Very sad.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@It"S ME

My gut feeling g tells me if a Brexit happens, Scotland will rethink staying within the UK.

Not a matter of gut feeling; SNP have said that if Scotland votes in but the UK overall votes out that they will move for a second independence referendum. In the event of Brexit I expect to see Scotland leave the UK fairly swiftly.

@commanteer

I just hope the perpetrator stays alive long enough to answer these questions.

Why would he not? He is in police custody, the UK has no death penalty, and the UK police don't tend to kill people in their custody. The man is going to be charges and I'm sure they're already asking him lots of questions.

Not saying there is a conspiracy

You're implying that there's a conspiracy in every post you've written.

makes me wonder if he wasn't encouraged by someone to act out this way.

Oh, I'd say he was encouraged alright - encouraged by the right-wing propaganda we're told he read, the years of anti-EU and anti-immigration scaremongering we've had by the right-wing press, and the whipping up of these fears by the leave campaign during this referendum.

@FizzBit

The weapon was left behind. That doesn't make any sense for the "hater/lone gunman" theory. WAY too convienent.

The weapon wasn't "left behind". The killer was arrested at the scene.

@tigerstokyodome

And the cost of a Brexit is much higher for the current establishment than it is for any British citizen.

The cost is high for all normal British citizens, but the ones who are least exposed to the risk are indeed the elite - but "the establishment" very much includes Brexit campaigners and backers like Farage, Johnson, and Lawson. If you believe their spiel that Brexit is for the people, you've been duped. This isn't the establishment vs the people; Brexit is every bit as much establishment as remain.

I cannot think of any far-right member who would go as far as assasinating a politician for Brexit/ Remain.

It appears we've just seen one do exactly that. Far right followers are not exactly noted for being pacifists or proponents of reasoned debate.

@WilliB

if the attacker in case like this is a jihadist, the ideology, the beliefs and their content are immediately blanked out, and media and politicians will only talk about "a young man" or some such

If the attacker were a jihadist, we all know exactly what politicians like Nigel Farage would say about it - and it would be incendiary, manipulative, divisive, hate-stirring rhetoric. But he wasn't, he was a right wing nutter.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Divisive and bitter politics come home to roost. Cameron's referendum was unneeded and could still cause an unmitigated disaster.

The leaders of the Leave campaign are a disgrace to us all.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Unfortunately I did not sort my postal vote registration out and I am kicking myself for it.

I really hope we remain. The leave campaigns seem to be scaremongering and as the article says, it's not surprising that people have started acting out.

It is very sad to hear that it resulted in someone as do-gooding as her was killed because of it.

If we leave, I'm worried what might happen...

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Yoshitsune - brilliant demolition job of the "it's a conspiracy, innit" crowd, whereby anything that happens anywhere must be the result of a conspiracy.

Now days, a motive for the authorities, however tenuous, effectively become de facto evidence of the conspiracy. It is barely plausible that grown men and women, outside of fiction, would conspire together to murder a young woman, and risk life imprisonment for very little personal gain, in order to have a negligible influence on a referendum.

The perpetrator of this crime, a man with a history of mental illness and with far right leanings, was witnessed by many people. Perhaps he was put up to this by the powers that be, but it is so unrealistic.

This is a tragedy for a bright young woman with a young family. Utterly shocking, but please let's not have childish conspiracy fantasies while she remains unburied and her family mourns.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Cameron's referendum was unneeded and could still cause an unmitigated disaster.

Another liberal with contempt for democracy, I see.

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

this movement is getting of hand, this shouldn't be happening in a modern democratic country.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Conspiracies are an addiction for some. They want to feel like they are special and have inside knowledge on world events.

Something like the special feeling others get when they write off thoughtful Brexit supporters as fearful racists? Or when they blame this murder on Brexit proponents in general?

Why is it that the very same people who condemn blaming a religion when one (or several) of its adherents commits a murder, are so quick to blame anyone on the right when one unhinged adherent commits a murder?

“I am struggling to believe what has happened. My brother is not violent and is not all that political,”

Odd, isn't it. And since the article itself tied the murder to Brexit, I see no reason why we shouldn't discuss the political motivations of this hideous murder from all perspectives.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

"I really hope we remain. The leave campaigns seem to be scaremongering and as the article says, it's not surprising that people have started acting out."

To be fair, both sides have been scaremongering. We've had our intelligence insulted with crap about the Roman Empire, Napoleon, Hitler on one side and the possibility of WW3 from the other. It's like listening to a lobotomized Enoch Powell or a nutter in Hyde Park screaming from the Book of Revelation at times. Plenty of sustenance for the mad, bad and paranoid there.

Talking of crackpot ideas, is anyone going to tell us the truth about what really happened to Diana and Dodi's car while we are here?

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@lu thatcher

Unfortunately I did not sort my postal vote registration out and I am kicking myself for it.

You had right up until 8am this morning to register a proxy voter! The right wing Brexit vote is highly motivated and is going to turn out en mass... while I fear that millions of remain supporters like yourself have inexplicably failed to register. We may very well end up leaving the EU as a result of this apathy, and find ourselves paying for it for generations to come.

If we leave, I'm worried what might happen...

So am I. Shame you weren't worried enough to register! Lesson learned I hope.

@commanteer

Why is it that the very same people who condemn blaming a religion when one (or several) of its adherents commits a murder, are so quick to blame anyone on the right when one unhinged adherent commits a murder?

Why is it that you're talking about religion?

Those who need to be blamed are those doing the manipulating and churning out the propaganda. In other words, in your first case, that means ISIS & Al Qaeda, but not all Muslims. And in the other case, that means Farage, Bojo, Lawson, and all the other Brexiteer politicians, but certainly not all of the ordinary folk who vote right.

Why is it that you want to turn this discussion into one about non-existent double standards?

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Instead of saying "put Britain first" I should think he was saying "Britain First", a known far-right group with several members who claim to be veterans, but who delete any real veterans from their Facebook who ask awkward questions. Nice bunch. I'm still voting leave though, got my poster up outside, even if I am living in Osaka. I sure didn't come to Japan for the diversity!

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

@Commanteer

It's just many conspiracy theorists do tend to shy away from putting forward their ideas. Some will honestly put their ideas forward and let them be discussed. The ones who annoy me are those who say "Hey, you can't rule a conspiracy out but I won't say who I think did it, how they did it and I have absolutely zero evidence to support it, but I'm just saying!".

I'm probably one of the ignorant you describe but I'm always willing to learn. Fizzbit hasn't put his/her idea forward yet. Do you fancy it or are you the 'just saying' type?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@WilliB

However, if the attacker in case like this is a jihadist, the ideology, the beliefs and their content are immediately blanked out, and media and politicians will only talk about "a young man" or some such.

I think you are deluding yourself. There was a somewhat similar brutal killing of a soldier (Lee Rigby) in the UK. The killer was a Muslim. The motive was 'jihad'. The media coverage at the time in the UK was no different from this sad case.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

@jimizo

To be fair, both sides have been scaremongering

Aye, true; but also, to be fair, do you think they have been dong so equally badly? The remain campaign has been describing to us the very worst case scenarios in the event we leave - yes, this is scaremongering, and exaggerating, but not outright lying. On the other hand, the leave campaign have been demonstrably lying about empirical facts which can be checked, have been checked, and have been thoroughly debunked; this is a far worse form of deceit in my book. Furthermore, Farage and UKIP, and Murdoch and the rest of the right wing press, have been doing this already for decades now - lying, fearmongering, whipping up animosity towards 'them' by stirring up fear for 'us', and that is what has brought us to this point.

To those who have a vote, vote against fear and hatred and use your vote to remain.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@Yoshitsune Unfortunately all my possibly proxies are Leave supporters...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@lu

Fair enough, that's a tricky one. Real shame you didn't get your postal vote in though

0 ( +1 / -1 )

A.N. OtherJUN. 17, 2016 - 03:14PM JST Another liberal with contempt for democracy, I see.

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute chat with your average voter" - Winston Churchill

Never has that phrase been more pertinent that this fools referendum.

Contempt indeed.

Contempt for the Tory party and this cancer that has festered since Thatcher. Contempt for those voters that are pea-brained enough to suck up the lies of the Leave campaign, a campaign still yet to offer any credible economic plans should their be a vote to leave. And utter contempt for the Leave campaign, a dishonest platform appealing to the racist tendencies of your average gutter press reader, that has ratcheted up the hate to the point where football hooligans are cheering about a Brexit as they indulge in their violence porn abroad, and while mentally unstable people go out and deprive two young children and a husband of a loving mother....

And contempt for the fools spouting conspiracy theories here. The leaders Leave campaign are responsible for the hateful rhetoric and mis-information and ultimately therefore incidents such as this. Johnson, Farage et al - disgraceful political opportunists out for their own gain, the consequences be damned. Real political super-whores.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

WilliB, Commanteer. Correct. If this killer were a muslim we'd be inundated on this site with the usual liberal claptrap in defense of Islam and yes, the press would be concealing or glossing over the Islam connection. Sorry, but at the risk of being called a conspiracy theorist, the killer fits the expected profile perfectly and the victim fits the bill as the perfect victim. To those who Think its outside the realm of possibility that this was a carefully planned event with the purpose of influencing the Brexit vote in favor of Remain, you have been well conditioned by the corporate-driven establishment.

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

@ Madverts.

Breathtaking arrogance by the Bremainers.

Brexit.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

The poor children.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Those who need to be blamed are those doing the manipulating and churning out the propaganda.

Oh, and the poor innocent, unelected power-brokers in the EU haven't been spitting out propaganda? And yet so many here are worried and frightened (dare I say making decisions based on fear?) about what may happen if the UK decides it wants to be ruled by a democracy rather than by unaccountable shadows in Brussels. Fear cuts both ways, some of it is real, some is imagined, some is instilled by media manipulation.

@Jimizo - I'm of the just saying type. I don't have any more idea what happened than anyone else here. It just struck me as a remarkably convenient tragedy for EU backers. With the huge motives involved, it would be extremely foolish not to even entertain the possibility. If this guy who was arrested turns up dead or otherwise unable to communicate with the week, I'll be more of a believer. Now I'm just sayin'.

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

Her poor children. So absolutely pointless. Give him the maximum penalty.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Outrider:

Nonsense. Read Albaleo's excellent post above for what actually happened, as opposed to idle speculation.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute chat with your average voter" - Winston Churchill Never has that phrase been more pertinent that this fools referendum.

I must say I envy you getting 5 minutes of face time with Winston Churchill. When exactly was that?

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

An assault upon one MP is an assault on our entire democratic process.......Well no factually it isn't until, one cannot determine the motivations of the alleged assailant.... it is hearsay...

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

commanteerJUN. 17, 2016 - 05:54PM JST "The best argument against democracy is a five minute chat with your average voter" - Winston Churchill Never has that phrase been more pertinent that this fools referendum. I must say I envy you getting 5 minutes of face time with Winston Churchill. When exactly was that?

Alas for a millennial that would prove a tad difficult:

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/w/winstonchu105424.html

A.N. OtherJUN. 17, 2016 - 04:42PM JST @ Madverts. Breathtaking arrogance by the Bremainers.

I wasn't expecting intelligent rebuttal. Not in the slightest. Vote for your dishonest campaign of lies. Ladbrookes, the only poll that counts until next week, still have you losing by a landslide.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute chat with your average voter" - Winston Churchill

I can see the point but given Churchill's elitism and snobbery, the average voter would almost certainly include you and me. He was hardly one to praise the ideas of democracy either. Another aristocratic Tory British Prime Minister, Harold MacMillan, complained that the country had been taken away from the Etonians and given to the Estonians ( a jibe at the Jewish members of the Tory cabinet at the time ).

I don't think old-fashioned patrician Tory snobbery is the best way to deal with issues. What was the quote about Heseltine being so new rich he had to buy his own furniture? I can imagine the Bullingdon louts Cameron, Osborne and Johnson sharing Churchill's sentiment.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Madverts . churchill also said that no greater retrograde force existed in the world than islam . I suppose you'd choose to selectively ignore this one.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

@commanteer

Oh, and the poor innocent, unelected power-brokers in the EU haven't been spitting out propaganda?

The European Parliament and European Council are both directly elected, so you must be referring to the European Commission (not directly elected, but appointed by the directly elected parliament and council)... so, has the commission been spitting out propoganda? No, I don't think it has; if you know otherwise, show us where.

what may happen if the UK decides it wants to be ruled by a democracy rather than by unaccountable shadows in Brussels

This is a perfect example of the dishonest propaganda upon which the Brexit argument is based. The status quo is not that the UK is ruled by unaccountable shadows in Brussels, a vote for Brexit is not a vote against shadowy dictators, and to claim it is is utterly ridiculous. The UK is ruled by a democratically elected government.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@WilliB

However, if the attacker in case like this is a jihadist, the ideology, the beliefs and their content are immediately blanked out, and media and politicians will only talk about "a young man" or some such.

Well we've had a few incidents in Britain where the attacker is a jihadist. So which particular one did you have in mind?

I am confident that it can be easily proven for any UK incident you name, that what you say above is incorrect. Take a shot.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Churchill also said that Democracy was the worst form of government except for all the others we have tried. This murderer does not represent any political viewpoint, no he is not a puppet in some giant conspiracy, just a deluded, mentally ill and violent person who sadly has acted out their rage. In this country we do not go around murdering people just because they disagree with us. I did not agree with her stance on the referendum but utterly reject this abhorrent act and maintain her and anyone elses right to their own opinion. Unfortunately much of the underlying case for Brexit is not being reported in the media, as usual they are concentrating only on the more flamboyant "newsworthy" aspects and ignoring the many cogent and serious factors, which I would cheerfully expound upon but this post is already too long.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Jimizio,

Maybe I just like the quote. Surely you missed the part where I lay the blame for this referendum fiasco directly at Posh Boy's feet. The Conservative's are unfit to govern. Labour a joke. UKIP a disgraceful band of racist bigots. Where's the democracy when you would vote for none of the above. We are governed by self-serving idiots.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

We are governed by self-serving idiots.

You just made a wonderful case for reducing the size and power of government. Except you seem to be asking for more. Why would you want to give self serving idiots yet more control over your life, economy and society?

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Where's the democracy when you would vote for none of the above. We are governed by self-serving idiots.

As it's a democracy, if you don't like the policies on offer stand your self!

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Sorry for the loss of life but how can this happen?

"UK firearms policy is based on the fact that firearms are dangerous weapons and the State has a duty to protect the public from their misuse. Gun ownership is a privilege, not a right. Firearms control in the UK is among the toughest in the world,"

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

As it's a democracy, if you don't like the policies on offer stand your self!

A fanciful idea. The way I see it is that power is passed through the same hands as it has been for hundreds and hundreds of years. The notion of freedom and democracy is a ruse for us plebs that live in slavery. Our rulers learned many years back that this ruse makes us more productive. This kind of stalemate is exactly what the ruling elites crave to keep them where they are, and more importantly us where we are.

All I do know is this same elite group of people will not be affected by either outcome of the referendum. Their cash envelopes and sweetheart deals continue. Even if the system collapses, they carry on winning. Be it a debt collapse, or even a war - the plebs will pick up the tab. What's happening in the US right now is identical. Just on a larger scale. Donald Trump the "outsider". Britain perhaps leaving the safety of the EU without a single credible economic plan proposed to voters. It would be hilarious if it wasn't really happening.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

A sad day for the UK.

fwiw, leaving the EU, at the time the far less encompassing EEC, was official Labour policy in the 1980s, back when the party actually stood for something. You can make a very strong ideological case for the UK not being in the EU. I'd vote Remain if I could though because I believe Brexit will guarantee Scottish independence and entrenched one party (Tory) rule over what's left of the UK. Theresa May's non-EU spouse rules that will not give my wife a visa are only a glimpse of what would be to come. Without EU rules, I think we'd see less worker rights, more pollution, less money for development in the provinces (the North, Northern Ireland etc.), dirtier beaches, .... Those things could be kept, but they will go because Tories don't care about them and pass the whole thing off as austerity.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Sorry for the loss of life but how can this happen?

Japan T - it happens, just very infrequently, as you would expect in a country with tight gun control. Most wannabe mass murderers have to resort to the very complex job of making explosives out of fertiliser and hairdressing products.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Now the reports are that the killer was a lone neo nazi nut.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/17/jo-cox-suspect-thomas-mair-bought-gun-manuals-from-us-neo-nazis-group-claims

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Fair trade not free trade can rebuild.

What is fair? If you are Japan and Australia, Japan thinks zero tariffs on their goods is fair, whilst Australia thinks 10% tariffs on their goods is fair. "Fair" is a very relative word which has no firm legal definition.

"Free" is an easy word to define and comprehend, and I will take "freedom" over "fairness" any day.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Scotland may vote to leave the UK,

The Scots have found another territory where they can go to live ?

other countries may vote to leave the EU, even France may decide to pull out

France can't get out. We are the EU. The EU is not a club, it's a state of diplomacy, it is when the countries get along. If it fails, we are back at what it was before, which was war.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@kohakuebisu

I'd vote Remain if I could though because I believe Brexit will guarantee Scottish independence and entrenched one party (Tory) rule over what's left of the UK. Theresa May's non-EU spouse rules that will not give my wife a visa are only a glimpse of what would be to come. Without EU rules, I think we'd see less worker rights, more pollution, less money for development in the provinces (the North, Northern Ireland etc.), dirtier beaches, .... Those things could be kept, but they will go because Tories don't care about them and pass the whole thing off as austerity.

Well put; I'm voting remain, and you've listed a number of my key reasons. In the event of a leave vote, I expect to see an independent Scotland before the end of the decade, and yes, the naturally left wing voters who've been conned into backing Brexit will realise far too late what they've done when the hard-right of the Tory party get their hands on the reigns.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Yoshitsune, are you suggesting the European council is directly elected? ......The EU parliament has a form elected representation made up of MEPs from all 28 EU member states, however there this significant definable democratic deficit in the use of a form of proportional representation. States like Luxembourg for instance are over-represented, this affords disproportionate voting rights.

The European Commission is made up of civil servants/bureaucrats from all the member states. Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the EC, Donald Tusk, President of the European Council, and Martin Schulz, President of the EP were not directly by any recognizable democratic process.

All were chosen by a process held in secret by the so called heads of the 28 member states of the EU. Political parties present a candidate for presidency of the European Commission. Luxembourg's Jean-Claude Juncker was chosen after his European People's Party (EPP) won a majority of votes in the European elections.

Imagine if this process was transposed in the forthcoming US Presidential elections in November Donald Trump could be chosen simply because his party achieved a majority of the votes.

Please also can you equate this ten year cycle to Scotland Independence, maybe the time it would take to decide the national denomination of currency!

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Brexit odds (at the bookies, not the "news" have declined following Jo Cox murder, cui bono..

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Furthermore Yoshitsune, this is your idea of accountably......the Council of Ministers holds public sessions, the so called member states elected governments will not grant access to these debates in the Council in public session, no!... all are held behind closed doors, and it is the process where all the most important decisions are made. None of the sessions can be reviewed online , the minutes taken are never made public. Not even MEP of the European Parliament are allowed to attend. As a financial research reprehensive seconded to the OECD I have attended, the non disclosure contractual agreement is bullet proof

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Rocknroll,

are you suggesting the European council is directly elected?

Yes; there is no suggestion about it. The European Council consists of the 28 directly elected heads of government / heads of state of the 28 member states, plus two appointed individuals (presently Tusk and Juncker) who are there in non-voting capacities as president of the council and president of the commission, respectively. In the UK's case we have an unelected head of state (QEII), so our elected Prime Minister is on the council. In other cases they have an elected PM as head of government and an elected President as head of state, so for example we see the French President on the council.

The European Commission, on the other hand, is indeed not directly elected...

Imagine if this process was transposed in the forthcoming US Presidential elections in November Donald Trump could be chosen simply because his party achieved a majority of the votes.

The European Commission is not a national government. The EU is not a nation. The EU is a supranational organisation, closer in nature to the UN or WTO than it is to the US - and the EU is far more democratic than any of the other supranational organisations in existence. Is it perfect? No. Is it a dictatorship? Obviously not, and the claim is ludicrous and a mockery to all those who do and have suffered under dictatorial regimes both today and throughout history.

Please also can you equate this ten year cycle to Scotland Independence

In the event that the UK votes to leave the EU, but Scotland votes to remain, the SNP have indicated that they would then seek to hold another independence referendum as a result. There is no "ten year cycle" about it - simply put, the terms of their continued membership of the UK would be radically changed by the UK leaving the EU.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@kohakiebisu

Great post. The idea of tooth-and-claw Toryism is repulsive but as a northerner I see a Brexit as a quicker death for the areas outside the English south rather than a slow death.

Pretty pessimistic but a remain vote might prolong life.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

For the conspiracy theorists among us, that venerable conservative organ the Daily Telegraph is reporting that Thomas Mair first purchased neo-nazi literature, including IED cookbooks in 1999.

Talk about a sleeper agent...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-suspect-thomas-mair-bought-book-on-how-to-make-han/

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The election process is at a national level , the democratic deficit or deceit for want of a better word is akin to the unelected UK house of Lords. There is no election process to the council of ministers which gives rise to the EU democratic legitimacy and to the pooling of sovereignty within the EU institutions.

A huge question mark is legitimacy that affords co/equal legislators at national government levels that meet in the Council of Ministers. Broken down the EU is directly/indirectly responsible for almost half of all legislation in Europe, by definition the European Parliament has more legislative power/authority than most national governments.

As for Scottish independence, the canny First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has put a 60% trigger level before calling looking for another vote.

Look I am of the opinion that Scotland should be Independent, certainly politically. The UK would have to assist economically. Scotland has some weak numbers. I always, in my naivety that the rest of the UK would set historic differences aside, the Braveheart dimension and hoover up a deficit running currently at over 9%..a debt ratio of some £2700 per head. Also the BOE would under-right Scottish pension liabilities and support currency requirements. Threats do not make friends, if Scotland wants Independence at least give them a economic fighting chance to succeed.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@jimizu

as a northerner I see a Brexit as a quicker death for the areas outside the English south

I agree, and it's probably the reason I will vote to remain.

@kohakuebisu

I believe Brexit will guarantee Scottish independence

This idea is voiced a lot, but I don't agree. (I'm a fairly strong supporter of an independent Scotland.) Scotland is tied to England in so many ways. The idea of Scotland being an independent country within the EU and England being out of the EU raises too many difficult questions. Independence is easier to imagine if both England and Scotland are within the EU.

Sorry. The referendum seems a little off-topic for this thread.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I know UK doesn't have the death penalty so what sort of sentencing will this man probably get?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The UK including Scotland has a choice, the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign has been a series of threats and intimidation and woefully short on facts. The vote leave position is a series of conundrums and quandaries. Jo Cox tragic death, at the hands of a loner with a history of mental illness has no place in the outcome of this referendum.

I am a Brexit supporter because I genuinely believe that Great Britain's economy, in fact its economic future, it political sovereignty is totally incompatible with EU brand of federalism. I won't be voting I chose Japanese citizenship, and struggle sometimes getting to grips with the culture, I have a family in the UK though and Great Britain provided a first class education, and wealth. I will forever be grateful.

The EU monetary policy underpinning its single currency is fundamentally flawed. The Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) is the fore runner to Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership with its insidious proposals for investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) is being hidden behind a wall of secrecy. There is no transparency. Both will affect democracy, national sovereignty, the environment we live in, the laws that govern our society , our health service, public services and employment laws.

Brexit will have consequences politically more than economically. There will be a run on Sterling, between 3% and 5%, both the BOE and the ECB will have a joint hedging strategy in place.

Most of all the EU institutions will be aghast, legal or judicial separation has consequences. However trade will continue much as before simply because it is in both the EU and GB interests. I have reviewed private polling forecasts that show remain in a strong position, how voters react in the sanctity of a polling booth is differentiation, anger and how one vents that anger.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@dadude

The sentence for murder in the UK is life in prison. In practice, those who receive this sentence don't spend all of their remaining days behind bars (unless they are already fairly old) - when sentencing, the judge sets a minimum number of years. This is typically in the two or three decade range. As this guy is already 52, and the crime appears to have been brutal and very much premeditated it is quite likely that he will spend his remaining days in prison, and if he ever does get out he will be very elderly.

@rocknroll

the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign has been a series of threats and intimidation and woefully short on facts

The Brexit campaign hasn't been merely short on facts, it has been outright lying about them. And not only for the few months of the referendum campaign at hand - UKIP and the Daily Mail have spent more than two decades lying and fearmongering on the EU and immigration, and that is what has brought us to this point.

EU brand of federalism

EU federalism?

The EU monetary policy underpinning its single currency

The UK is not in the single currency and never has to be. The UK's currency is not affected by this referendum.

There will be a run on Sterling, between 3% and 5%

Very conservative. It has already fallen more than that during the campaign - I personally would expect a double digit fall following a Brexit vote, perhaps even 20%.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

You fear change Yoshitsune I understand that, a bad deal has to be walked away from, in demanding situations one has to summon the courage and negotiate , the risk, evaluate, and transaction, formulate the actual decision criteria that underlie any organizations future and have the back bone to stick to it.

The BOE and the ECB will work side by side, hand in glove, if necessary both monetary policy committees will review interest rates, both the ECB and BOE have had contingency plan in place for the last 12 months. A fact that is not lost on any Euro zone government that foolishly threw away that advantage.

Review your last two comments - The UK's currency is not affected by this referendum - followed by - I personally would expect a double digit fall following a Brexit vote, perhaps even 20%.

The UK will be required to sooner or later to review or negotiate it's rebate, the European Commission will use a draft amendment to circumvent correction mechanisms, there is also stakeholders and analysts vrocedures that only require unanimity. Southern Europe is on the brink of a debt crises. The UK will be required to assist.

However the €21.00bn already review by OECD analysts is unavoidable and will increase....

EU budget: backlog of unpaid bills on the way of phasing out...However all remains unresolved, it is inevitable that the net contributors will be required to fund a stop gap mechanism.

<http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2015/05/26-eu-budget-backlog/ >

Kippers and the Daily Mail are irrelevant. The last election is evidence enough.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

You fear change Yoshitsune I understand that

I do not fear change in the slightest; I have changed careers, countries, continents, multiple times, taken many leaps; I am merely opposed to the self-harming change for no good logical reason that constitutes Brexit.

Review your last two comments - The UK's currency is not affected by this referendum - followed by - I personally would expect a double digit fall following a Brexit vote, perhaps even 20%

You're either being very disingenuous, or you've misunderstood my comments. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Just as the first statemeet of yours I replied to dealt with the single currency, my first comment - that the UK's currency is not affected - meant that the UK's currency will continue to be Sterling and will not switch to Euro; I wasn't referring to the value of the currency, which will most certainly be affected. The second statement, in response to your statement about the value of sterling - that I expect a double-digit fall - of course refers to the value of Sterling.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

If my tone is disingenuous then I apologize. I fear change, I am not to proud to admit it.

Brexit will herald change, and change is inevitable, which is probably why the electorate in the polling booths will vote to remain and then tut-tut into there gin and tonic.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The Southern Poverty Law Center said he was a supporter of a neo-Nazi group based in the United States and had what it called a long history with white nationalism. - article

The execution of an innocent human being, mother, representative of her constituents and compassionate humanitarian serves only to instruct what comes of prejudice.

“According to records obtained by the Southern Poverty Law Center Mair was a dedicated supporter of the National Alliance (NA), the once premier neo-Nazi organization in the United States, for decades,” the US-based legal advocacy group said on its website. - article

This pointless slaughter of a human being should also instruct what comes of political movements that have their foundations in religious prejudice.

While prime examples may be found in other countries, it is particularly grievous, that, in Britain, a deranged neo-nazi had the opportunity and means to kill for no reason except hate.

A horror lesson that could be applied and should be noted as other Democracies approach their most important decisions in open and free elections. Hate has no conscience. Those who have no conscience use hate to build their influence among the most mentally incompetent and should be judged by the support they craft for self deification.

As some subjects and illustrations are limited, they are no less apparent and have no less potential for this same destructive and cruel expression. Some in the States may take note given the article's identification of this murderer's political inspiration.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Why are mass murders worse than multiple single murders?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Unclear if there was any political motivation at all.

He knew who Cox was. There absolutely was some political motivation.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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