Britain defends healthcare system after Trump Twitter attack

Two questions immediately come to mind. 1) How much does each individual Brit pay for health coverage compared to their Yank cousins? 2a) How many people die directly as a result of their medical care in Britain compared to the estimated 250,000 iatrogenic deaths per year which the American Corporate industrial grade healthcare system directly causes? 2b) Is Brittain's healthcare system the third leading cause of death as it is here in the U.S.?

Thanks to the GOP tax cuts, the working poor can use the $1.50 they will be saving each week to buy health care.

CrazyJoeToday  07:48 am JST

Thanks to the GOP tax cuts, the working poor can use the $1.50 they will be saving each week to buy health care.

Yes, that should be good for a packet of Band-Aids once in a while.

I would take any health care system in any european country long before I even consider touching american health care system.

Heads of State do not go around bad-mouthing allies about stuff that is none of their (the HoS's) business.

Very, very unstatesmanlike.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, what would be the US reaction if the heads of other allied countries made a point of sounding off about the US like Donny does about countries that are supposed to be his friends?

Someone needs to take Donny out behind the woodshed and give him a good hard unstatesmanlike slap up the back of the head, knock a bit of sense into him. Point out to him that Twitter is not the same as chatting with mates over a beer in the pub. Folk are listening.

How much does each individual Brit pay for health coverage

Not so easy to give a clear answer. The NHS budget is almost entirely paid for out of tax. The UK wide budget is about £150 billion. The UK population is about 65 million. So it averages to about £2300 per person. Other sources will say about £5000 per taxpayer, but that figure only considers income tax payers, and there are other sources of tax.

Concerning iatrogenesis, I haven't hear that term in a while. (I had to read Ivan Illich as a student.) I've no reason to think things are different in that respect between the UK and the US. (But if receiving healthcare is a bigger killer than not receiving it, perhaps the US is better. :-))

From today's Guardian

The first thing that Americans should know about the National Health Service is that it’s free at the point of use to anyone who needs it. You don’t have to fill out much paperwork, and you get no bills, whether you go to see your family doctor, or go to hospital. No one in the UK goes bankrupt through medical costs, no one needs to delay medical treatment until they can afford it, and virtually no one is uninsured.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/05/americans-uk-health-system-trump-nhs

From my own experiences, I can tell you that the NHS were fantastic for me and without them, I'd have been in poorer health.

But nice of Trump to stick his oar in again.

The US government spends more per person on health than the UK, for a much worse outcome.

The Dumpster doesn't know what he is talking about on this topic, or any other.

And don't forget, the NHS will get an extra 350 million pounds a week because of Brexit.

Why does he like to trash talk the allies of the US?

I don’t get it.

Yes, I do wonder what happened to that extra money that was promised.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/18/boris-johnson-350-million-claim-bogus-foreign-secretary

I don’t care about the NHS and the poor any more.

I’ve just bought a bunch of stocks and shares, given how the economy’s doing so marvelously with the Donald in power!

I’m going to be so rich!!

Why does he like to trash talk the allies of the US?

Somehow he and his gophers think that this will make America great again.

It seems that they don't understand that people who don't like you, will find ways to trade around you.

TPP anyone?

I’ve just bought a bunch of stocks and shares, given how the economy’s doing so marvelously with the Donald in power!

Well, the stock market just crashed there, so it may be a good time to buy in.

But you should do a little voodoo dance or something to try to prevent it from crashing further. It's going to need something like that with Trump in power.

The U.S. has the highest child and maternal mortality, homicide rate, and body-mass index of any high-income country.

The USA is also the only country in the OECD without universal health coverage, and has the largest share of unmet health-care needs due to financial costs. Not only does the USA have high and rising health inequalities, but also life expectancy has stagnated or even declined in some population subgroups.

From https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/22/us-life-expectancy-is-low-and-is-now-projected-to-be-on-par-with-mexico-by-2030.html

Moron Trump - an obese man himself - and America are the very last people that should be dispensing advice about health systems around the world. The place is an abject disaster, and falling so far behind the rest of the developed world it is undeniable.

So is ISNT broke and not working?

Broke:

Protesters demanding more funding for the service marched on Prime Minister Theresa May's office.

Not working:

Last month May apologised after the health service postponed tens of thousands of non-emergency operations to free up staff and beds to deal with emergency patients.

The purpose of the demonstrations was to urge the UK government to up the spending to, perhaps, the high level already being spent by the US government much less effectively.

@Blacklabel

Arguments over the NHS aside, why do you think Trump openly trashed an institution of a key ally of the US?

What good does it do?

I still don’t get it. Do you?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, what would be the US reaction if the heads of other allied countries made a point of sounding off about the US like Donny does about countries that are supposed to be his friends?

I find it utterly amusing how Europeans get all bent out of shape when he criticizes (and often justly) Europeans or their socialist entitlement culture, he’s just out of lines and overstepping his boundaries, give me a break!

But when Europeans criticize America, we have to stop the presses, listen to them for moral advice and clarity because they know better? Get the.....

"going broke and not working”.

UK bad - USA # 1!

People have to stop thinking Trump is not intelligent. I don’t know if Machiavellian-ness (sic) is considered one of the multiple intelligences, but if it is a category, then Trump’s got to be considered near genius. 

By phrasing things the way he does, by using language representing one pole of a spectrum, he’s got his supporters - and his opponents - to see issues in polar terms, black/white, either/or, us/them. 

Nuance? Gray? Depends on situation and circumstance? That’s so yesterday. 

The great bifurcate-or (sic) is succeeding at pitting sides against each other - while he’s out playing golf. The divider-in-chief is dumbing down all discussions: for the benefit of his followers (simple language is easier to understand and repeat), at the expense of the country.

@Bass

Perhaps you can help out.

Why is it a good thing for leaders of countries to openly trash the institutions of key allies? What good does it do?

I don’t particularly like May, but I don’t see her trashing key allies like the US on Twitter. It’s just... not what leaders do.

What’s your take on leaders trashing other countries who are regarded as allies?

But when Europeans criticize America, we have to stop the presses, listen to them for moral advice and clarity because they know better? 

How would you feel if Theresa May was to write gloating, boastful tweets after the next US mass shooting? Well you don't have to worry about it, because she won't.

The US spends 8% more of its GDP on healthcare than the UK and the outcome is a 3 year shorter lifespan. Despite all that spending, tens of millions of Americans have no medical insurance and Trump wants to increase that number.

Trump keeps boasting about how good he is at making deals: perhaps he should start by slashing medical costs in the US as Americans are clearly receiving poor value for money.

ClippetyClopToday  10:50 am JST

"But when Europeans criticize America, we have to stop the presses, listen to them for moral advice and clarity because they know better? "

How would you feel if Theresa May was to write gloating, boastful tweets after the next US mass shooting?

I think you'll find that what would be totally unacceptable for anyone else is just fine when it's his beloved Donald who's doing it.

I find it utterly amusing how Europeans get all bent out of shape when he criticizes (and often justly) Europeans or their socialist entitlement culture,

@bass, that would be a valid point if we weren't talking about health care. Free healthcare for ALL (or free education) isn't part of a 'socialist entitlement culture' but based on solidarity, personal responsibility and, dare I say, 'patriotism'. Not to dissimilar to supporting war vets don't you think? Helping the poor, sick, disabled, old.. aka 'most vulnerable' isn't/shouldn't be a 'socialist' thing.

I find it utterly amusing how Europeans get all bent out of shape when he criticizes...

But when Europeans criticize America...

Equating the comments of the leader of a nation to the comments of a bunch of dudes on the internet.

Folks, this is a clear example of how the US is broken. Their idea of the ideal to which their leader should be held is the same as they expect of twitterers tweets.

@Jimizo: Specifically for this health care issue, he is correct. But I agree, I have no idea why he would bring it up. It isnt really necessary or productive to point out the imperfections/failures of issues that have little to do with you.

Why is it a good thing for leaders of countries to openly trash the institutions of key allies? What good does it do?

Hey, he's telling it like he sees it! That's more important than doing the right thing for your country.

I agree, I have no idea why he would bring it up. It isnt really necessary or productive to point out the imperfections/failures of issues that have little to do with you.

Because if he kept his mouth shut, he wouldn't be a very good troll. And his 4am tweets prove that trolling is very high on his priority list.

The fact that I could be hit by a bus...taken to the hospital and be treated...all paid for by my NI contributions is good enough for me.

Ok...there are long waiting times for non essential (and sometimes essential) operations due to the underfunding of the NHS.

But at the end of the day the system is the best in the world.

....IMO

And his 4am tweets prove that trolling is very high on his priority list.

Hmmmmm...

bass4funkToday  11:27 am JST

Hey, he's telling it like he sees it!

As he should, if the Europeans feel they have that right,

Now that Your Beloved Idol and Hero Donald The Gorgeous has been... "telling it like he sees it" about other countries, I expect you're okay with foreign leaders exercising the same right to tell it like they see it about the US. Or is that right solely reserved to the man you love?

Hey, he's telling it like he sees it! 

As he should, if the Europeans feel they have that right, Mr. President swing thine axe.

Which European leaders have been trashing the US? May did politely disagree with him for retweeting dodgy racist trash from a racist group but I think that was justified.

Why is swinging an axe at key allies for no good reason a good thing to do?

I still don’t get it.

It seems a few people are terrified by the word socialism. It's just another system of government, folks.

For all the NHS shortcomings - lack of fundings, government closing AEs and attempts to turn it into an American style nightmare (which is why the people were protesting, btw) - the service is much beloved and the doctors and nurses do a fine, admirable job under pressure.

Now that Your Beloved Idol and Hero Donald The Gorgeous has been... "telling it like he sees it" about other countries, I expect you're okay with foreign leaders exercising the same right to tell it like they see it about the US.

They have been before there was even a US, so go figure.

It seems a few people are terrified by the word socialism. It's just another system of government, folks. 

Not a system I want in the US.

For all the NHS shortcomings - lack of fundings, government closing AEs and attempts to turn it into an American style nightmare (which is why the people were protesting, btw) - the service is much beloved and the doctors and nurses do a fine, admirable job under pressure

Europe can have their entitlement system, keep it, Love it and hold it to the vest. I don’t want it and not jealous of it.

Which European leaders have been trashing the US?

Take your pick.

Which European leaders have been trashing the US? 

Take your pick.

I can’t think of any. Please name one with his or her quote trashing the US.

Even if you can, why trash a country in Europe because the leader of a completely different European country upset him? May didn’t trash the US. It doesn’t make sense.

I still don’t get it.

I can’t think of any.

Try, Google won’t laugh.

Even if you can, why trash a country in Europe because the leader of a completely different European country upset him? May didn’t trash the US. It doesn’t make sense.

They did and this President from a few leaders in the UK, Merkel, Austrian leaders.

I still don’t get it.

I don’t either.

But you use and contribute to the Japanese one?

Yes and No.

Britain's health system delivers free care for all.

No service in this world is truly "free".

People are always paying for a service, somehow.

Hiding the costs from the people receiving the service doesn't mean it was "free", only that the people paying for it were charged some other way - usually taxes or similar types of thing.

This is the essence of the real debate - how best to provide services of quality commensurate to their true costs. Criticisms of "free" service include charges that they tend to cost more than the outcomes are perceived to be worth, and that because the recepient of the service gets it for "free" that they needlessly consume more of the service than they really need. 

Criticisms of non-free service include charges that a non-free service would mean that vulnerable people are unable to afford to pay to get service.

There is middle ground, but people are more concerned about politics than they are about actually achieving desirable outcomes, or even improving current outcomes.

This is the essence of the real debate - how best to provide services of quality commensurate to their true costs. Criticisms of "free" service include charges that they tend to cost more than the outcomes are perceived to be worth, and that because the recepient of the service gets it for "free" that they needlessly consume more of the service than they really need.

Well it certainly isn't the American system, where the people paying get less for their buck than any of the modern countries that have national health care for all their citizens.

Europe can have their entitlement system, keep it, Love it and hold it to the vest. I don’t want it and not jealous of it.

Is it "entitlement" for the middle classes, the poor, the less well off, the marginalised to avail of a system that won't leave them in hock forever?

Well it certainly isn't the American system

My comments were general in nature, and the current American system is nothing to aspire to.

The system in Singapore appears to produce much better outcomes than ‘free’ systems elsewhere, and the expensive, failing US system. It is neither entirely ’free’ nor entirely user-pays.

Something the three people who thumbed me down do not want to know about, for political reasons...

Something the three people who thumbed me down do not want to know about, for political reasons...

Some people like to approach a discussion on health care as if they are standing outside politics and looking at the cold, hard facts.

Is your view of this entirely non-political? I tend to find those in favour of lower taxes generally find fault in systems like the NHS. That wouldn’t describe you by any chance? I’ve seen examples of various systems thrown about from both sides to support their view.

I’m honest about it. I’m coming at this from the left of the dial.

The system in Singapore appears to produce much better outcomes than ‘free’ systems elsewhere, and the expensive, failing US system. It is neither entirely ’free’ nor entirely user-pays.

The middle path is often the best path on most issues (except maybe defense). But it requires the ability to truly engage with an issue so you have a sophisticated understanding of it and can therefore implement the best possible approach. We use to know this. Partisanship, dumbed down identity politics and general irrationality encouraged by the mob and the media are not at all helpful to viable policy or practical outcomes.

"Healthcare is a human right."

You could say trash pick up is a human right too, but somebody has to pay the doctors, nurses, medicine makers, and trash collectors. They don't work for free. It's a complicated issue. There are pluses and minuses for different systems. Obamacare is is an udeniable disaster.