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British PM says Brexit poses huge risk to economy

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LONDON — British Prime Minister David Cameron warned Tuesday that a vote to leave the EU in less than 48 hours would damage the economy

Duh?! Like OMG!

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

"You don't throw out the watch because the second hand's fast."

Reckless acts end in remorseless denial. Funny that's familiar.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

The problem is that Cameron has been shown to have been lying about a number of things including the whole immigration control business which is one of the primary topics of the whole Brexit debate.

Even if he is absolutely correct, chances are that Mr. Pig has done as much damage for his own credibility and the credibility of the campaign he stands for as that idiot who murdered Jo Cox in the name of "freedom for Britain" did for his opponents. At this point, I'm having trouble trusting anybody.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

The problem lies within the european parliament, its lost its way, its failing its member states. A system run by unelected faceless bureaucrats, living in their own disillusioned fantasy world. European leaders conned by the promise and expectations of the benefits of being a member state, sacrificing their sovereignty for 30 pieces of silver.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

"At this point, I'm having trouble trusting anybody." - comments

With respect, this sounds wonderful large for expansion. Please do.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The Fear approach worked for the Scotland vote but I don't think he'll be lucky twice. There's just too much not being discussed that makes it difficult for a win for the Remain side. EU isn't liked, and it isn't well liked.

Ironically the free flow of people and goods will have to continue for UK's economy to continue so it's not like there will be a cut off of goods or the regulations that allow that trade. Only that the rubber stamp will be in London not Brussels.

That's it is it? I suppose that's progress?

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

“If we vote out, that is it. It is irreversible. We will leave Europe for good and the next generation will have to live with the consequences.”

There is almost nothing I agree with Cameron on but on this he is right. Right now our kids can come and go as they please all over Europe and work there too. Why jeopardise that for the sake of sticking two fingers up to Brussels. It is short-sighted in the extreme. And if, at some future date, the case for leaving becomes irrefutable, well then, they can leave then. Let's leave the next generation the choice.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

How is this irreversible?

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

How is this irreversible?

How is it not⁉️

0 ( +4 / -4 )

The Fear approach worked for the Scotland vote

To those who wish to protect the Pound, and prevent Brexit, today would be a good day to facilitate some violent event, to increase voter fear. I pray today ends safely.

-11 ( +0 / -11 )

sadly leaving EU probably won't bring the independence that the UK long for in the age of the globalism

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I see Jon Oliver's excellent Brexit rant isn't airing in the UK until after the election? I hope anyone in the UK will watch it online. Link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8

3 ( +4 / -1 )

If your reason for wanting England to remain part of the EU is because your kids can 'come and go as they please all over Europe' then I'm going to have to call you for being selfish.

If you vote remain tomorrow, don't sit there a year from now and complain about hospital operation waiting lists, declining wages for low-skilled jobs, lack of housing .... the list goes on.

But wait, your kids can go and come as they please so all of those other 'petty' issues don't matter....

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

Moonraker,

Ignore the hysteria, Ladbrookes odds of Remain are still going up. 76% chance today.

I don't like Tory Boy particularly, especially as he is the author of this unnecessary madness. My only hope is this will shake up the bureaucrats in Bruxelles. People have a right to be pissed but committing suicide by Brexit is not the answer. Common sense will prevail....

4 ( +6 / -2 )

For a number of years now I have been watching Europe and watching the United States. In the United States it was pretty obvious this past year, with the rise of Bernie Sanders, that many people are in love with many of the social programs that exist in Europe. What many people in the United States fail to understand, is the how/why the programs are existing. (1) The United States and Britain are the first line of defense for all of Europe, so when nations don't have to pay for their own extensive military, they can use that money elsewhere. (2) Equally as important, if not more, to (1) is the fact that Germany and Britain are basically keeping countries like Greece, Italy, France, etc... afloat financially. If Britain pulls out of the European Union, wait and see how long before Germany decides it no longer wants to be a part of the Euro. Wait and see how long before Germany decides it doesn't want to keep paying for early retirement in Greece or 9 week paid vacations for Italians. You will see the Euro and, by default, many of the European economies fall apart. This may not happen over night, but it will happen.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Sf2k, of course it's irreversible. Do you think EU membership is the same as gym membership? The political and economic systems are deeply intertwined. Extricating the UK will be costly and time consuming. In addition, any UK exit will create further instability in the EU so it will be politically expedient for the remaining nations to make it as tough as they can. Even if that adds cost to their businesses selling to the UK.

timtak, not clever, as demonstrated by recent events. You shouldn't always let those thoughts free.

Njca4, if you think the EU only provides for easy travel, you've not done your homework. It can be demonstrated that unskilled wages have drifted lower due to the availability of labour willing to work for minimum wage. But is that the fault of the EU, or the companies paying those salaries? Hospital waiting lists are longer as a result of reduced investment as is the lack of affordable housing.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

"But the websites of six major bookmakers showed the odds heavily pointing to a “Remain” vote, with the chances of Britain staying in put at nearly 80 percent."

England winning euro 2016 have shorter odds than England leaving the EU. Yep thats how unlikely it is (them leaving the EU that is)

;)

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@CrazyJoe

With all due respect, each one of your points fails to stand up to scrutiny. Completely baseless claims are the biggest problem that the reality based community has with the Brexit campaign. Let's take them one by one.

(1) many people are in love with many of the social programs that exist in Europe... The United States and Britain are the first line of defence for all of Europe, so when nations don't have to pay for their own extensive military, they can use that money elsewhere.

Countries in Europe are not cutting corners on defence to fund social welfare programs. France, a country with some of the most generous social welfare programs in Europe, spends 2.2% of its GDP on military expenditures. There is only one other country spending a higher percentage, Greece at 2.3%. The UK only spends 2.0%.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS

(2) Germany and Britain are basically keeping countries like Greece, Italy, France, etc... afloat financially.

Simply untrue by any stretch of the imagination. Which of these countries are net contributors and net recipients of EU funds? France and Italy are both net contributors to the EU budget. In fact, both France and Italy contribute MORE to the EU budget than the UK once you factor in the UK rebate! So please explain to me how exactly Britain is 'keeping them afloat'?

Greece is a net recipient of EU funds, but even so, EU money represented only about 2.5% of Gross National Income in 2014. This EU money is important for the Greek government, but it's tourism keeping Greece afloat, not the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union

http://english.eu.dk/en/faq/faq/net_contribution

5 ( +5 / -0 )

The Fear approach worked for the Scotland vote but I don't think he'll be lucky twice.

It's a little different this time, as fear seems to be part of both side's arguments. Stay and be overrun by foreigners; leave and be begging on the streets by Christmas.

The words of Private Fraser say it all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EH1G4EwljM

2 ( +2 / -0 )

We don't need bigger government! We don't need wasteful destructive globalization! We don't need to overpopulate already overpopulated countries

However,

We do need a return to democratic individual freedom which unfortunately the EU is not about

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

"But the websites of six major bookmakers showed the odds heavily pointing to a “Remain” vote, with the chances of Britain staying in put at nearly 80 percent."

The same bookies had a hung parliament as odds-on in the 2015 general election and a Tory majority at about 5/1. That said, they did call the Scottish Independence referendum right.

The most terrifyingly low odds are for Boris Johnson becoming the next UK PM. For all our sakes, let's hope they are very wrong on this one.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

We do need a return to democratic individual freedom

Are democracy and individual freedom not somewhat contradictory? I can't park my car wherever I want. I think we try to find a balance. It could be argued (it probably has) that the EU actually prevents the UK government interfering in our lives in various ways. And it has given us screw-in light bulbs in addition to bayonet fittings, so more choice. It hasn't outlawed our massive three-prong plugs and sockets though. Perhaps a pity.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I have selected a data from a number of sources below, Ian Begg from the LSE, EU Europa formula in reality up until 2104 and UK Gov.

The UK is the third largest contributor, well technically the second, all is dependent on how one views, subdivides subsidies not rebates.Sorry I would like to break this down but am a tad busy.

Government/HM treasury 2015....

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/483344/EU_finances_2015_final_web_09122015.pdf

European Union Finances 2015.....

Who pays for the EU and how much does it cost the UK? Disentangling fact from fiction in the EU Budget....

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Who-pays-for-the-EU-and-how-much-does-it-cost-the-UK-Disentangling-fact-from-fiction-in-the-EU-Budget-Professor-Iain-Begg.pdf

EU expenditure and revenue 2014-2020...Pay particular attention to financial framework

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/figures/interactive/index_en.cfm

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Sorry I would like to break this down but am a tad busy.

Quite the Brexiteer mantra. Pints all round?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Gin and tonics and apologies SenseNotSoCommon, I don't think the UK can technically Brexit the EU no matter the outcome of Thursdays referendum.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Thanks @itsonlyrocknroll. I look forward to your figures when you get a chance to break them down. The paper from Ian Begg seems to paint an even more damning picture than I imagined.

Although the scale of the UK contribution to the EU budget is often highlighted, the evidence is clear that, once adjusted for the size of the economy the UK pays the least. Moreover it has done so consistently.

Since you mentioned subsidies, I'm guessing that you want to open the can of worms that is CAP. I'd be curious to see how you plan to allocate the payments by country. It seems like an impossible task considering that the money is just a giveaway to multinationals and almost certainly isn't spent in the member state that it's sent to. Ironically, one of the top beneficiaries of CAP is probably Switzerland when you look at how much Nestle receives in subsidies.

@SenseNotSoCommon

Sorry I would like to break this down but am a tad busy.

Quite the Brexiteer mantra. Pints all round?

lol, yes that's the usual response from Brexiteers but I'm sure itsonlyrocknroll is a genuinely busy guy.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Lol Girl unless the mirror is deceiving me,

Ian Begg hasn't brought the UK benefit system, pensions and health care into the equation. Also the calculation for Gni, Tor. are abstract to say the least, but Begg makes this clear. It is a alternate view giving a more positive evaluation of UK membership. The UK membership/obligations to the EU, the benefits, trade, access to the single market, etc, also it's contribution cannot and will not cease on Friday in the event of a negative outcome.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@itsonlyrocknroll

Lol Girl unless the mirror is deceiving me,

Oh, I'm very sorry! It looks like I might have a gender bias. I'll have to be careful.

Ian Begg hasn't brought the UK benefit system, pensions and health care into the equation. Also the calculation for Gni, Tor. are abstract to say the least, but Begg makes this clear. It is a alternate view giving a more positive evaluation of UK membership.

Thanks. I suppose it's also true that the more Europe integrates, the more difficult is becomes to clearly compare the costs against the benefits. The grey area keeps getting bigger and bigger as companies and people cross borders.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@kcjapan

"At this point, I'm having trouble trusting anybody." - comments

With respect, this sounds wonderful large for expansion. Please do.

When you don't know who to trust, trust nobody. I don't trust Cameron because of the lies told on the campaign trail when he was trying to get back in at the last general election. Since then his lies have been uncovered (though to be honest I had an idea that he was bending the truth anyway).

I have trouble trusting Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage too. Boris has been the court jester for quite a while and some of his deeds during his tenure as the Mayor of London make me cringe. Farage, on the other hand, is the leader of a group that has been shown to be at least casually rascist.

With the huge and sudden shift of certain business interests at the last minute I am sure that more than a few of them are scared that leaving the EU would put their personal fortunes at risk. But these are the types that have been pushing the agenda in their own favour for a very long time so I can't really trust them either.

I also can't really let the general politician off scot-free either. It will take a very long time for me to forget the whole expenses scandal; it wasn't just the money that mattered there, it was the overall trust.

That's what I mean by "I'm having trouble trusting anybody". Finding somebody who can tell it like it is without some perceived personal slant is nearly impossible.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

If you vote remain tomorrow, don't sit there a year from now and complain about hospital operation waiting lists, declining wages for low-skilled jobs, lack of housing .... the list goes on.

Do you seriously imagine, njca4, that these will all improve by leaving the EU? All of your examples are in greater part the result of Tory government-for-the-rich, unaffected by the EU. There is no overwhelming case to leave, as far as I can see, so why make it? Others in future may have a case and they can make it, if they like. Sounds obvious to me.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

No apologies necessary M3 frankly more concerned but turn out.

If the electorate especially young voters stay at home or in the pub, that would be a betrayal of the fundamental principles of democracy.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Not too late yet.... "The referendum result is not legally binding - Parliament still has to pass the laws that will get Britain out of the 28 nation bloc, starting with the repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act. eferendum result is not legally binding - Parliament still has to pass the laws that will get Britain out of the 28 nation bloc, starting with the repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act.eferendum result is not legally binding - Parliament still has to pass the laws that will get Britain out of the 28 nation bloc, starting with the repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act. The withdrawal agreement also has to be ratified by Parliament - the House of Lords and/or the Commons could vote against ratification, according to a House of Commons library report. In practice, Conservative MPs who voted to remain in the EU would be whipped to vote with the government. Any who defied the whip would have to face the wrath of voters at the next general election. One scenario that could see the referendum result overturned, is if MPs forced a general election and a party campaigned on a promise to keep Britain in the EU, got elected and then claimed that the election mandate topped the referendum one.e referendum result is not legally binding - Parliament still has to pass the laws that will get Britain out of the 28 nation bloc, starting with the repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act. The withdrawal agreement also has to be ratified by Parliament - the House of Lords and/or the Commons could vote against ratification, according to a House of Commons library report. In practice, Conservative MPs who voted to remain in the EU would be whipped to vote with the government. Any who defied the whip would have to face the wrath of voters at the next general election. One scenario that could see the referendum result overturned, is if MPs forced a general election and a party campaigned on a promise to keep Britain in the EU, got elected and then claimed that the election mandate topped the referendum one".

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Parliament still has to pass the laws that will get Britain out of the 28 nation bloc, starting with the repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act.

You can say that again.

Parliament still has to pass the laws that will get Britain out of the 28 nation bloc, starting with the repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act.

And again

Parliament still has to pass the laws that will get Britain out of the 28 nation bloc, starting with the repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act.

And again

Parliament still has to pass the laws that will get Britain out of the 28 nation bloc, starting with the repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act.

And again

0 ( +1 / -1 )

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