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British PM unveils tough anti-riot measures, including social media controls

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Looks like Orwell's "1984" is coming to life, and all because of a bunch of hooligans. I say shoot any and all violent rioters and let God sort them out.

-5 ( +2 / -6 )

It looks more like Anthony Burgess' "A Clockwork Orange" coming to life. In that book, nihilistic youth gangs speaking a language called "nadsat" (which means "teen" in Russian) terrorized UK society.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

"He reiterated that police had been given powers to use water cannon and plastic bullets, and also suggested they use technology to control future unrest, by stopping rioters using Twitter, Facebook or BlackBerry Messenger to organize themselves."

We are all against rioting, but why empower police to invade social media sites? Especially when it is obvious that anyone intent upon using web communication to organize would be aware of and bypass any such restrictions.

What this results in, is another violation of the general public's rights with no net benefit for society. Like America's "Patriot Acts" this is just another constriction of privacy and liberty in the name of addressing fear and terror. When in reality none of these solutions address the problems, they all simply impose undue restrictions upon liberty.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Jeffrey, " I say shoot any and all violent rioters and let God sort them out."

Way to demonstrate an understanding of repression. Really? Kill people for rioting? And let "God" sort them out? Are you for real? I pitty such thinking as barbaric, inhumane and lacking any understanding of the rule of law. Further to invoke "God" shows you have no understanding of religion either.

Shameful post.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

He reiterated that police had been given powers to use water cannon and plastic bullets, and also suggested they use technology to control future unrest, by stopping rioters using Twitter, Facebook or BlackBerry Messenger to organize themselves.

So China in early 2008 has riots in Tibet before the Olympic games. China cracks down using violence and shutting down internet and social media. The world decries China for its heavy-handedness.

England in 2011 has riots before the 2012 Olympic games. The Army may be called out, water cannons and plastic bullets to be used. The PM wants to shut down social media.

Interesting how a 'modern democracy' like England feels the need to respond similarly to backwards, totalitarian China.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

I agree with tkoind2. The people on the streets are the people of Britain. The people in power are toffs with inherited wealth and elite education. the governments reaction is so Big Brother that it's makes China look free. For example, making poor people homeless, is this how an educated nation tackles the problem of poverty, desperation and social exclusion? The only reaction to such hard line policies is an armed rebellion similar to Libya.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Democracy in 2011 is a propaganda illusion. Who actually directly elects their political representatives? Who directly elects the top leader of the state? Who has the greatest influence over the decisions of the government? Who do the actual representatives listen to?

How many people have any kind of economic democracy?

England, with their assault on social media IS like China IS like the US Patriot Act and IS NOT democracy.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

The civilized world is looking more and more like one collective police state with each passing day

0 ( +1 / -1 )

We are all against rioting, but why empower police to invade social media sites? Especially when it is obvious that anyone intent upon using web communication to organize would be aware of and bypass any such restrictions

Sure and why not? If these hooligans pose a serious threat, ignore the rule of law, disregard property and use that as a shield to loot, extort and to just use the riot as an excuse to be rowdy is totally unacceptable. The point is, the police are not dumb, they can equally intercept chatter and other forms of communications that these creeps might employ. When you engage in such acts, you are also violating innocent peoples liberties.

What this results in, is another violation of the general public's rights with no net benefit for society. Like America's "Patriot Acts" this is just another constriction of privacy and liberty in the name of addressing fear and terror. When in reality none of these solutions address the problems, they all simply impose undue restrictions upon liberty.

The Patriot Act is necessary, I know liberals believe at every corner, the government wants to check their iphones. Yes, in order to protect our civil liberties, we have to give up some rights, but I personally don't have anything to hide, but liberal organizations like the ACLU will do anything to erode and enable these rights, which hurts the nation and allows people that want to harm us skate through these loopholes. Liberals are so paranoid on ANY government intrusion as if the government is single-handedly and purposely trying to steal people's rights just for sole purpose of entertainment.

Way to demonstrate an understanding of repression. Really? Kill people for rioting? And let "God" sort them out? Are you for real? I pitty such thinking as barbaric, inhumane and lacking any understanding of the rule of law. Further to invoke "God" shows you have no understanding of religion either.

What's shameful is, is when people don't understand, you try to reason with people, but they didn't respond, what else are they supposed to do, offer them flowers and hope that these nuts will somehow come to their senses? Hasn't happen and from the looks of it, won't happen, therefore, the only way to quell this uprising is to use ANY LEGAL means necessary at their disposal. Why is it that you are not condemning or coming down on these thugs? You are quick to point out the faults of the government, but let's have pity on all the thugs and especially the one's that weren't originally affected by this tragic situation in the first place. The shooting of this man and the subsequent anger and legitimate protest that spilled over has nothing to the lawlessness that these thugs, purposely used a tragedy to jump on the bandwagon and to use that as an excuse to loot pillage, the city. And you think, the government has to be gentle and show compassion to these thugs?? Now that is a real shame!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

human target

The civilized world is looking more and more like one collective police state with each passing day

I chuckle reading that and think of how many times I heard Leftists saying it before the advent of the net and social media.

Asagao

The only reaction to such hard line policies is an armed rebellion similar to Libya.

Sounds like someone wishes he was back in London...

tkoind

England, with their assault on social media IS like China IS like the US Patriot Act and IS NOT democracy.

Democracy is mob rule. Most people who invoke it do so with bait and switch tactics in mind, like the Muslim Brotherhood is doing in Egypt right now.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Bass4funk. " If these hooligans pose a serious threat, ignore the rule of law,.." so your solution is to then empower the state to do the same thing by infringing upon access and the right to use social media? No one is saying they cannot read public posts to help with enforcement, but to infringe upon the majority to address the issues of a small minority is a violation of liberty. You need to learn that such violations are equally dangerous to a free society as rioting.

"The Patriot Act is necessary," Utter propaganda and nonsense!!! Remember Franklin's admonition that giving up liberty for safety means we deserve neither. Are you going to call Franklin a "liberal" now? This idiotic support of the Patriot Act in the name of combatting terror was utter nonsense from square one. It repressed Americans and did nothing to stem the tide of terror. I for one stand for LIBERTY and against OPPRESSION.

"What's shameful is, is when people don't understand, you try to reason with people, but they didn't respond,..." I am sure Hitler, Mao and Stalin would equally subscribe to this approach to governance and problem solving. When those pescky citizens don't understand, you can impose understanding on them. Don't waste time protecting civil liberties and freedom, get those peasants to comply by any means necessary.

Well done mate. Way to support making the US and UK like China!

Law enforcement and Liberty can and do coexist. But you must have the good sense to know where to draw the line and assure that you achieve both!

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Blame the scum and the rioting thugs for any loss in freedoms and rights, they're the ones who will have brought the difficult policy changes down on everyone.

It's always the same, scum, terroists, criminals, arseholes bring curtailment of everyones freedoms.

Society needs to take a very hard line on these rioting scum bags, not hug them and give them more benifits as some would like to do.

Asagao

The only reaction to such hard line policies is an armed rebellion similar to Libya.

I hope you were being tongue in cheek if not then you have serious anti social/mental issues that need to be addressed.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Being poor gives a person to destroy, loot, and kill? I say all rioters get one warning shot into a random limb, if they don't stop they receive a second shot in the head.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

"Blame the scum and the rioting thugs for any loss in freedoms and rights, they're the ones who will have brought the difficult policy changes down on everyone."

Sorry this thinking is wrong! Blame government for violating the rights of the majority to address the issues of a few bad people.

You can and MUST address crime in a way that protects and retains freedom. Anything that fails to do that is wrong.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Jeffrey DuelleyAug. 12, 2011 - 07:31AM JST

Looks like Orwell's "1984" is coming to life, and all because of a bunch of hooligans. I say shoot any and all violent rioters and let God sort them out.

More than a nuisance, people like this see riots as a sort of opportunity to invoke carnage. In fact, their heart is the same as the most vile of rioters, its just that they act on that heart from a different angle. Some people like this are not even conciously aware of the truth of their hearts.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@tkoind2

Not once did I hear you say anything or make ANY comments about these thugs, you are just ranting as how the Patriot Act is propaganda, invoking Stalin, Mao and Hitler (don't see ANY correlation whatsoever to this topic) what is your solution, while London is burning down, what are these government officials supposed to do? Also, I find it very funny and oh, so convenient when liberals start to preach about human rights and morality only when it fits THEIR agenda! These thugs forfeited their rights, the moment they started tear up the city like they are doing. Had they'd done peaceful protests, this story wouldn't have been an issue, but they turned the main reason for this unrest into something that never needed to happen. How do you justify looting and assaulting innocent store merchants and people? So I think the natural response would be to tear gas them, use rubber bullets and any other tools at their disposals reinstate the rule of law. These thugs had the chance not to out into the streets and loot, they chose otherwise. So I think if you want to make any comments, you should address the real issue and that is, the Brits need to put their country back in order and use any or all resources they have at their disposal.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

ExportExpertAug. 12, 2011 - 11:36AM JST

Blame the scum and the rioting thugs for any loss in freedoms and rights, they're the ones who will have brought the difficult policy changes down on everyone.

That works fine for temporary curfews, but not for tinkering with the internet and not if the curfews become permanent. The government is still going to be responsible for all of its mistakes, and if those mistakes exceed what was excuseable considering their mandate, then they will be more trouble than the rioters and beyond forgiveness.

In other words, they have an excuseable margin for error, but its infinite by no means.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Blame the scum and the rioting thugs for any loss in freedoms and rights, they're the ones who will have brought the difficult policy changes down on everyone.

Sure, because the only way to respond to any threat is the immediate suspension rights and freedoms. There is no other possible way to respond to anything ever.

This idea works really well for second graders but is a wee bit wrong for a nation composed of laws.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Bass4funk. Because I am more concerned by the violation of civil liberties than I am by the rioting.

The solution is to use law enforcement, as was done, to suppress lawlessness. And you must take it a step further by working on the causes of the riots to help assure that they do not happen again.

Only dictatorial thinking leaps from law enforcement to the restriction of civil liberties beyond the scope of the criminals involved. And that is where the analogies come in to other dictatorial examples.

Got it now? You do not "Put your country back in order" by violating the civil liberties of the general population. For anyone freedom and liberty oriented, this is common sense. It seems only hard for more repressive thinking people to grasp what Franklin was trying to teach us.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

tkoind

I am sure Hitler, Mao and Stalin would equally subscribe to this approach to governance and problem solving.

As if any of those control freak socialists and communists would have allowed social networks or the internet. Try and keep a little perspective.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

The Govenremnt has lost the plot and is making childish rules and lwas to please the minority of panicking nutters who blame otehrs for their ills. Of course action must be taken but if a 13 year old kid causes trouble his whole family can be evicted and made homeless by the council. Great idea!!, Let's us solve social issues by punishing whol families and putting them on the street, that will teach them!!

Wonder how long it will be before some lads having a drink do something silly like use a friends mobile to make threats of rioting and the police lock an innocent person up under primitive laws. Knee jerk laws do not work to solve societies problems. Mr Cameron stop trying to make laws to please Daily Mail and Sun readers. I know you are an upper class twit, but you van do better than that, if not resign. Bring us anotherr leader from the wroking classes who has empathy and real life skills. Not another Thatcher though please, that woman proved women should never be placed in high office.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

One more thought. If your desire is long term security and peace, why invite a whole new round of protests by passing impositions upon civil liberties? This is planting the seeds of an entirely new problem.

You cannot solve problems by compromising liberty. History teaches us clearly that this always fails over time. It will result in greater long term public damage than any local riots would cause. And your solution fails to look at the plethora of other options at the disposal of the state to secure and maintain order.

Do try again....

0 ( +2 / -2 )

steve@CPFC: First time I've agreed with you in a while! :)

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Bass4Funk: Yes, in order to protect our civil liberties, we have to give up some rights, but I personally don't have anything to hide

I dare you to post all your emails in a public space. A copy of your passport would also help. Don't forget to specify your religion at the next census.

BreitbarVictorious: I chuckle reading that and think of how many times I heard Leftists saying it before the advent of the net and social media.

Democracy is mob rule. Most people who invoke it do so with bait and switch tactics in mind, like the Muslim Brotherhood is doing in Egypt right now.

At least, there is a constant thing in your posts. Muslim this, leftist that. Fantasy binary world. Seems you agree the government can do whatever it wants as long as taxes don't increase.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Wasn't it Thomas Jefferson that said, "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it"?

Strange. Must be one of those many progressive ideas the founding fathers set forth that all those constitution-quoting conservatives choose to ignore.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Because I am more concerned by the violation of civil liberties than I am by the rioting.

That's exactly my point!

The solution is to use law enforcement, as was done, to suppress lawlessness. And you must take it a step further by working on the causes of the riots to help assure that they do not happen again.

Been doing that and so far, it hasn't worked. You are making excuses for these scum, putting ALL the responsibility on the the government and law enforcement, but these are not kindergarden students. They know right from wrong, but as I said, Liberals will always make an excuse or shove the blame to someone else and never take responsibility or accountability for their actions. I am all for human rights and legal and lawful demonstrations, but this is way beyond all reality and sense of logic! Before ranting about these thugs and their civil liberties, I want to know what about the civil liberties of the innocent people and the store merchants, what about them tkoind2?

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

No more excuses and no need to become a commando, Mr. Cameron should assume full responsibility and resign immediately.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@Tumble

I dare you to post all your emails in a public space. A copy of your passport would also help. Don't forget to specify your religion at the next census.

Childish rant, has nothing to do with the present situation in the UK.

At least, there is a constant thing in your posts. Muslim this, leftist that. Fantasy binary world. Seems you agree the government can do whatever it wants as long as taxes don't increase.

Stop deflecting and please stay on topic. I didn't say ANYTHING about Muslims in this post. Nice try. And it's true, leftist that cause mayhem in the streets, selfishly destroy property, loot, intimidate, hide behind masks, don't care about the rule of law. Seems like you agree with the leftist point of view that accountability of an individuals actions are no matter how damaging is totally acceptable, take, take, take and take and increase taxes too.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

soundandthefury; In the 19th Century society started realising that society was didvided , made efforts to give everyone a better life. Parks and open space were made whcih allowed workers to have enjoyable times with theri families for free as a break form working life. In London a wonderfull park was opened in South London named Crystal Palace, it was world famous and was a sign of better things for the "underclass" of the time. The peopel of London were so happy that a football clun was formed to bring joy to the workers of South London, it was called Crystal palace Football Club. To this day it still brings joy to the people of London and even the world. Contrast that with now when we are "richer" than ever, so they say! The poor are having money cut by up to 80% for community projects, the police is having a 20% cut in officers.

Being poor is getting worse, keeping public order is getting harder. 21st Century progress?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

"You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide", right?

Unless we think you're hiding something, even if you're not.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

A 'commission' has of course been appointed so that the preening careerist politicians can 'get to the bottom' of the problem. So do any of the experts here have a prediction for its findings? It's been almost twenty years since I last visited London but I predict the upshot of all this will be that the guilty white 'progressive' class - and in the UK as far as I can tell that means both parties these days - will make the usual bland call for greater tolerance and understanding, and implicitly blame themselves. And the moochers and the predators they will smile, and know that they have won again.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

bass4funk: You have nothing to do with the Muslim part. That was for Breitbart. Read the post. Not just a few words.

Childish rant, has nothing to do with the present situation in the UK.

You want to stop the riots? Shutdown all transportation. Monitoring social media or forbidding them won't change a thing. French people were able to start a revolution without phone, ipad and Facebook.

The riots are nothing other than just looting and violence. Nothing political. The police should be in the streets to stop violence and protect people. Not spying on you. Even if you have nothing to hide.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

BV; Time to get online or buy a book and start studying about the Uk, One first important thing is to realise that the UK has three major political parties. At the moment there is a coaltion of Conservatives and Liberals. The Labour party is the opposition party.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

I finally see why so many people on here hate a conservative society like Japan, you're all liberal beyond reason. I think Republicans are generally a mix of insane and evil, but many people on here just don't get it.

If people are committing arson, murder, and theft on a massive scale, you don't coddle them and ask how they feel. Society has broken down, and innocents need to be protected. These rioters have shed their humanity and have become monsters. How can you liberals defend such vermin? Maybe you all should take the next flight to London and have a heart-to-heart chat with these poor, downtrodden "virtuous" souls.

Before anyone slanders me by calling me a "Nazi", or whatever, I just want to say that depending on the subject my political beliefs can range from Democratic Socialist to Libertarian.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

You want to stop the riots? Shutdown all transportation.

Are you serious? That's your answer??? Standing on the street corner and waving your hand, telling them to go home, you think law enforcement have to bow down to their thuggish demands and France is not the UK!

The riots are nothing other than just looting and violence. Nothing political. The police should be in the streets to stop violence and protect people. Not spying on you. Even if you have nothing to hide.

I agree, but at the same time, if you have nothing to hid, why worry? Do I want the government to spy on me, no, but these are different times we are living in and If the government would spy on me, they would be bored to death, whatever the government needs to do to protect its citizens, then so be it and if these thugs use the internet to plan, congregate in order to defy the law, then the law can do whatever to counteract it. Fight fire with fire!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

They are best described as anarchists, even if they are not dedicated adherents.

And what are most anarchists? Leftists which most of them are dedicated troublemakers.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Tariq Jahan, whose 21-year-old son Haroon Jahan was one of those killed, was featured on the front page of several newspapers addressing an angry crowd and urging them not to take revenge.

Where are the Islam haters now? If it had been a Muslim behind the wheel, the would have called it a terrorist attack. If it had been a Christian urging them to go home, they would have declared that that is the true face of Christianity. But since its the opposite, they are all silent.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

bass4funk,

Actually by the modern definition, leftists tend to be "Big Government" on economic issues, but pro-privacy and pro-civil rights. Conservatives, on the other hand, are more about "survival of the fittest", and little-to-no government intervention in the economy, which seems to fit your idea of "anarchist" much, much better.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

stevecpfc

Time to get online or buy a book and start studying about the Uk, One first important thing is to realise that the UK has three major political parties.

In the end, regardless of the number of parties you have in a democracy (in a civil society that has chosen democracy), there is only the position each person or group takes in the struggle between liberty and equality.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Looks like Orwell's "1984" is coming to life, and all because of a bunch of hooligans. I say shoot any and all violent rioters and let God sort them out.

Hrmmm.

It looks more like Anthony Burgess' "A Clockwork Orange" coming to life. In that book, nihilistic youth gangs speaking a language called "nadsat" (which means "teen" in Russian) terrorized UK society.

I'm going to go with Lord of the Flies.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

oracle

Where are the Islam haters now?

In your imagination, as usual.

If it had been a Muslim behind the wheel, the would have called it a terrorist attack.

Would they? Sometimes a car accident is just a car accident.

If it had been a Christian urging them to go home, they would have declared that that is the true face of Christianity

Who is this 'they' you keep bringing up?

But since its the opposite, they are all silent.

Until the driver / felon is found and the case examined I can't say the incident is a momentous one.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Bass4Funk: Are you serious? That's your answer??? Standing on the street corner and waving your hand, telling them to go home, you think law enforcement have to bow down to their thuggish demands and France is not the UK!

Of course not but if a 100 people have to walk more than 5Km to loot a shop, burn a car, they would stay home and watch a re-run Knight Rider.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

humantarget

"Actually by the modern definition, leftists tend to be "Big Government" on economic issues, but pro-privacy and pro-civil rights."

Once big gov has ensured your economic freedom is gone you can kiss all your other rights goodbye. And please - - entrepreneurs , vibrant free markets - i.e. 'capitalism' - have done far more for the cause of civil rights than have any bunch of elected politicians.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

BV; Some of us though don't basxe many of our decisions that one political party advocatse. When one says that they are a Liberal or Conservative they toe a party line and adjust their beliefs to fit in with the ideals of the leadership. It is far better to look at everything without an agenda. The reason Britain has become like this is partisan politics with many voting for a party for the sole reason they parents and grandparents did. Flexibility would be more welcome in these issues instead of more knee jerk reactions by poticians and stereotyping certain sections of society to make repressive laws more palatable to the masses.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Tariq Jahan

I've heard this man speak, and he was amazing. We are used to reading this sort of "us vs. them" narrative regarding immigrants, especially when those immigrants are South Asian/Middle Eastern/North African and Muslim. There is something fundamentally Britsh about him; something which stands in stark contrast to the rioters.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Breitbart,

you have progressives and "big government" to thank for weekends, 8-hour work days, minimum wage, overtime pay, OSHA, women's rights... oh, not to mention, if it weren't for government regulations, you'd have a whole lot more of those scary illegal immigrants you're always going on about in the workplace.

Remember when the government cracked down on hiring illegal immigrants in Georgia? It killed their farming industry - one of the state's most lucrative - practically overnight.

When conservatives say, "less regulation" they really mean "less regulation for me, but not for these poor folks and people with skin pigment"

0 ( +2 / -2 )

BreitbartVictorious. Your posts sound like propaganda posters for the ultra-conservative American right. Government bad, and yet government repression somehow works out to be good for you. No social programs, but ok to have a repressive policy imposed upon society. This bipolar thinking is sadly out of touch with reality.

steve@CPFC nailed it. The late Victorians and Edwardians had the good sense to realize that passification and represssion would only lead to further upheaval and social discontentment. So they took steps to improve the lot of working and poor people. And for some time these efforts yielded positive results.

The sad fact is that as long as the UK and other countries have large disenfranchised communities who are under increasingly dire economic conditions, there will be a risk of public uprisings. And it will only get worst if you add to that impossitions on civil liberties as these will invite more anger and from a wider demographic.

You cannot resolve rioting by becoming repressive against liberties. It WILL NOT WORK. Spend some time studying history and you will see that such efforts have invariably failed.

For the near term all you can do is leverage law enforcement to do the best you can to stop violence. But over the long term you must solve the many problems that give rise to these problems.

The educated classes like my colleagues and I will resist your efforts to repress freedoms EVERY step of the way. It is wrong and even Franklin new this kind of thinking was wrong 200 years ago. It is time the right and people like you came into the 21st century with a better grasp of both history and political theory to resolve problems in meaningful and non-destructive ways.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Actually by the modern definition, leftists tend to be "Big Government" on economic issues, but pro-privacy and pro-civil rights.

Ahh, the old "Entitlements, nanny states" argument again. Hand outs, give me more FREE stuff. Pro-privacy, when it fits their narrative. Pro-civil rights?? Yes, back in the day, they were, but we're in 2011 and the Anarchists of today don't know anything about the struggle of human rights and civil rights and freedom. those people had a very serious agenda, also, their protests were never violent unlike these thugs, so to equate the anarchists with the civil rights movement of the past IMO is quite insulting to what these people fought and struggled for.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@tkoined

I love how you and all of your liberal kind are not posting ANYTHING as to the behavior and the absolute lawlessness of these thugs, NOT one of you guys addressed or condemned the actions of these criminals, you are just shoving the responsibility over to the government or law-enforcement, it's always their fault, right? Poor anarchists. Give me ONE, just ONE reason that justifies these goons actions. I don't want to hear any rant or blame the government spin, just stay on topic, why is it OK for these guys to torch cars and homes and shops and hurt businesses, property and people? NO BS, just a straight answer!

2 ( +2 / -0 )

bass4funk. "Anarchists" Where are they? No anarchists are out there waiting to steal away your middle classed world away. Look to corporate profiteers and corrupt government to pin that blame on.

There is considerable anger in our growing urban mega-cities. People who cannot find adequate work, who are not empowered to be invested in society. Those who do not have access to education, work or the opportunity to break cycles of poverty.

These are not illusions friend. They are realilties. Even growing as problems here in Japan. And when people are disenfrancised or disaffected, they can and will become resistant. Especially if incited by some event in their community.

You cannot wish these problems away with dreams of uber-happy socieites where government is abscent from benefits and ominpresent in law enforcement. This thinking has no basis in history, reality or political savy.

You must solve problems of the poor and disaffected to solve problems for the city as a whole. Political labels will not help solve this for you. You have to have real plans that put people to work, get people into education, address social issues and invest as many people as possible in society.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

As for your small vs large government argument. Again this is nonsensical propaganda. Most people who care about working people do not have illusions of either. What we have is the rational idea that government and society must be both supportive and involved, while respeciting liberties and freedom. These are not mutually exclusive concepts. These are concepts that offer the synergy required to solve problems, build community and yet demonstrate the capacity to protect and save rights and liberties.

Trying to portray it as an A or B world paints a complex problem into a black and white choice. Which nothing in modern society is and never has been. Solutions must be comprehensive, flexible and above all in line with our values to protect civil rights and liberties.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Some of the rioters were goons and opportunists, but it would be completely naive and misinformed to assume that they all were, or that there weren't more deep-seated reasons behind the riots.

I'm reminded of severe riots in my home town about 8 years ago, which resulted from a very similar situation. An African American gunned down by white police officers. It wasn't more strict surveillance that won the day, but long-term police reforms and more efforts at alleviating deep-seated issues of poverty and racial strife. The city now enjoys much better race relations and a far lower crime rate.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

bass4funk; the rioters are not anarchists. I doubt they would know what anarchy means.

Has anyone said it is ok to torch cars and break the law? I haven't seen it here, Fixed and inflexible beliefs about others can lead to judging others and believeing we know what they are thinking,

There is a problem with society, mostly involving the poorest members but involving others as well. When talking about the problem and analysing the remedies and finding the cause we do not have to condemn the rioters every breath. we know what they did was wrong, to keep repeating it serves no purpose.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

By anarchists, I did not mean the organized thoughtful anarchists. I meant people who genuinely want a state of pure anarchy, riots, disorder and violence. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a moe appropriate word for them. It should be anachists, and the political position of anarchist should be named something else.

There rioters don't have any political concerns worth mentioning. They are more akin to beasts raised in and set free from a zoo, as they don't even seem to have the sense of order and stability that even so-called wild beasts do.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Oracle. The rioters are "Rioters" not anarchists, nor any other specific political movement. On the contrary it is arguable that these are people without the support of political ideology, representation or organization.

Anarchists, contrary to popular mythology, do have a pretty clear political belief system that does not invite or include violence and mayhem. The word has been coopted by propaganda that has made the term synonymous with chaos. When in fact, the word once meant a specific set of ideas that believed in small or no central governance.

So exactly how do rioters fit into that political box.

Orwell warned that the meanings of importan words would be corrupted by doublespeak and propaganda. I guess he nailed that as well as many other predictions we now see unfolding.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

tkoind2

You have to have real plans that put people to work, get people into education, address social issues and invest as many people as possible in society

Please stop talking crapola, these scum dont want to work or be educated, they prefer to rob and steal or deal drugs, as for education they had the same opportunity as millions of others in the UK but choose not to pay attention at school, dont blame the state, the individual must take responsibilty for their own actions.

This scum had the same chances as millions of other law abidding hard working educated people but choose not to take those chances. Wake up dude !

0 ( +2 / -2 )

And besides alot of these rioters wernt even old enough to get jobs so being unemployed has nothing to do with it.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

bass4funk. If you want to accuse groups of certain attributes, you should become familiar with that those groups actually stand for.

This is part of my point. You toss around slogans about "liberals", "anarchics" and such with little or no understanding of what those movements represent or stand for. And you make broad assumptions based upon information that is suitable only for Fox News that is essentially propaganda.

This is entirely the problem. We dismiss the riots in the UK as being all about thugs only. When obviously there was more at work in the UK that led to these outbursts of public anger.

So what are the motivations that led to this? Who are these people rising up really? And why? We have to answer these questions with real, rational answers if we want to solve the problem and prevent future upheaval.

If it is police behavior that led to this, then we must address that. If it is economics, we must address that. Otherwise we invite a repeat of this series of events.

Blocking or undermining social networking sites will not solve the root problems or address the issues. It is simply a knee jerk repressive reaction by a government too lazy or too blind to seek out real solutions.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

If we all took the same attitude as this bunch of rioting scum bags then lets smash into every shop in omotesando coz we feel disenfranshised and disconnected from society as we are disadvantaged coz we arnt as rich as bill gates or steve jobs, we would be justified in your view if we did.

Get real !

0 ( +2 / -2 )

ExportExpert. And exactly how do you know what these people want? Did you meet with a wide range of these people? Did you interview them? Did you study their responses? Have you talked with authorities in the area? With local representatives?

It is extremely easy to sit back and make broad assertions about what people do or do not want. But when we actually start to talk to these people we find out that the vast majority want the same thing you and I want. Stability, a job, safety, security for family etc...

Why is is to easy for you to dehumanize these people? And attack those who would hear them out to see if we can find lasting solutions to these problems? Are you that afraid of the poor classes?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

This scum had the same chances as millions of other law abidding hard working educated people but choose not to take those chances. Wake up dude !

My point exactly! No one forced these thugs to go out and do what they are doing and yet, liberals always want to make excuses for bad behavior and that there is a perfectly legitimate reason for rioting, certainly it can't be the rioters fault, because of their social situation and circumstance and being downtrodden pushed them to do this. It's the systems fault, never the individuals fault. Nice try though.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

And "Dude" social problems have been the root causes of riots all across history. When the problems are addressed, the riots stop. Fail to solve the problems and you will see more. This is the unvarnished truth.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

bass4funk; Something to think about. A lot of the people arrested come from stable middle class families, with employed parents. Some of those charged are also from differnet parts of society.Several Universoty students are amonst them, a trainee teacher and other profeessional jobs. I guess some of these scum did take the chances and still behaved like that. Something to think about.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Good point, tkoind. If the rioters were motivated expressly by greed and a desire to "break stuff", wouldn't riots like this be happening pretty much all the time in London?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

ExportExpertAug. 12, 2011 - 02:30PM JST

And besides alot of these rioters wernt even old enough to get jobs so being unemployed has nothing to do with it.

In fact, the modern and mistaken belief that teenagers are "too young to work" has a lot to do with it. The situation of having young adults with no financial options and pinning their financial fate directly to that of their parents, is not one that arose through careful planning and consideration. This is part of the price to pay for treating young adults as children.

tkoind2, I cannot speak for or against your claim that the term "anarchist" has been appropriated. All I know is that political order is about the last thing on their minds. They just don't give a damn about anything but their immediate desires, and such people should have an appropriate label and they belong on no political spectrum. The label of "rioters" hardly suffices.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

My understanding of political things.

Politics revolves around 4 things. Conservative, Liberal, Authoritarian, and Anti Authoritarian.

The Conservatives and Liberals form one axes , normally placed as Liberalism on the left and Conservatism on the right. The Authoritarians and the Anti Authoritarians can be represented as a vertical axes with Authoritarianism on the top and Anti Authoritarianism on the bottom.

As stated earlier Liberals want government to control the money while keeping away from civil liberties. In plane language Liberals feel the government can better spend your money than you can but that government should keep their noses out of your bedroom.

Conservatives do not want to control your money, but they do want to control what goes on in your bedroom.

Both Conservatives and Liberals tend to gravitate towards Authoritarianism as in both cases, they need government to be big enough to control either your spending, or your bedroom practices.

Anti Authoritarians tend to not care what other people do and say they are for personal responsibility in both money and bedroom issues.

The extreme Anti Authoritarian would be considered an Anarchist, as they would feel they do not need the help of a government to assist them in either their finances or their bedroom practices. Since the Anarchist feels no government is needed they would be considered neutral on the left and right axes.

Libertarians tend to be Anti Authoritarians but believe a limited form of government is needed. Libertarians can be conservative, liberal, or neutral on the left right axes.

Politicians are almost always Authoritarians or they would be working for a living, (small smile on that one)

Authoritarianism in almost all cases leads to the development of a bureaucracy as more and more non elected people are needed to keep track of either your finances or your bedroom or both.

Bureaucracy tends to be self sustaining and soon serves only the perpetuation and GROWTH of the bureaucracy. That is why you will never see a politician proposing actual cuts in budgets. The most they can get away with will be slowing the rate of growth. The bureaucracy that funded them and allowed them to play with other peoples finances and/or bedroom practices needs to feed and will spit out the politician that actually tries to cut their budgets.

I am not a Londoner so I can not say much about the riots but I have thought a lot about politics and wanted to put my say in as there did not seem to be a clear consensus on what being a Conservative, Liberal, or Anarchist is.

In my opinion, getting rid of self perpetuating bureaucracies is probably the one thing that could fix social unrest. The less fortunate of society are prodded to increase and multiply by policies whose origins are actually the perpetuation of the bureaucracies needed for the care and feeding of the less fortunate.

dzimmerm

1 ( +1 / -0 )

tkoind2 -

you go hug them then and see if you still walk away with your wallet. Or go hug a tree.

Go hug them and give them a job I bet they steal from you too even if you gave them a job, they dont want to get out of bed at 6 am to go to work like you n I, they dont want to learn to better them selves, its too easy to be scum collect the dole and steal from hard working people.

I dont need to go talk to the bleeding heart types who want to hug them and say its ok society is sorry for your plight, to realise the problem here . The problem is they are not law abidng hard working decent types.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Cameron is an idiot. Does he seriously think that putting troops on the streets and imposing a curfew is going to "improve" Britain's image in the world?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

ExportExpert,

so... why aren't these people going out and doing this every weekend, since it's apparently so easy and it's all they want to do?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

tkoind2Aug. 12, 2011 - 02:32PM JST

So what are the motivations that led to this? Who are these people rising up really? And why? We have to answer these questions with real, rational answers if we want to solve the problem and prevent future upheaval.

I have no confidence this can be done until they are brought under control. The onus was on them to tell us what their problem is, and since they have utterly failed to do that, its not bad to assume they actually have no goals worthy of noting. I scarcely think even they know what their problem is, and so, how are we supposed to figure it out while they run riot?

These particular people are acting like beasts, and until that stops, how can we do anything but treat them like beasts? Of course we must be careful not to treat the rest of the country the same, but these rioters? I don't advocate intentional bodily harm, but they need to be herded and subdued. Then we can move on to training them to act civilized and maybe figure out why they lost that ability.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

They at home watchin Tv and playing modern warfare 2 on their stolen 50" TV now, give it a while and they'll get bored and go back to stealing.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Some on here may need to go get blood transfuisions for their bleeding hearts.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

ExportExpert; you do realsie that a lot of those charged are employed , some inprofessional jobs or are too young to work, pree teens even?

Public hangings for rioting pre teens the solution perhaps?

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Or perhaps some of us had to work hard to get where we are in life and understand the plight of the less fortunate.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

steve@CPFC

ExportExpert; you do realsie that a lot of those charged are employed , some inprofessional jobs or are too young to work, pree teens even?

Public hangings for rioting pre teens the solution perhaps?

Yup PC steve and hang the parents too.

Dont be so ridiculous PC, the problems start at home the parents need sorting out too, its been like rising damp for generations and its almost bred into some of them.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

ExportExpert, you keep your head firmly planted in the sand where it is. Don't let the light of reality seep into your very prim and proper world.

Human Target and others have raised good questions. If this is about thuggery, then why doesn't this go on all the time? You would do well to remember that the Watts riots and many other uprisings in the last century were also dismissed by the "head in the sand" crowd as thuggery, criminal chaos etc.....

And yet nearly without exception there were social, political, economic and other factors underpinning the violence.

Does it do you harm to try to get to the bottom of this issue with true insight and understanding? Afterall a rational establishment of governance should desire to assure that such events do not recurr. As such logic demands that we get to the points of the problem and resolve them to assure the safety of the community in the future.

What about reasonable, intelligent problem resolution do you have such a problem with? Does this amount to "hugging" as you so gleefully exclaimed? I think not. Afterall history shows that understanding these incidents helps prevent them happening again. So if what we will now term as "hugging" (just to make sure you are happy with the term) will be defined as investigations into the catalyst and causes of the riots in an effort to assure the future stablity of public safety. Then by all means let us Hug Away.

Second issue: "The label of "rioters" hardly suffices." So you resort to absconding with another, unrelated political movement's word and fulfill the predictions of Orwell in a most admirable fashion. Well done.

How about we call them Republicans instead? After all Republicans have started at least two wars in the last two decades. So it seems fitting to call the rioters something in line with people who begin wars.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

...it's almost bred into some of them.

Now you're talking sense. It's not (with exceptions) their fault. They were brought up by apathetic, waster parents, educated (more or less) at second-rate sink schools where almost none of the teachers wanted to be, and basically left alone to their own devices.

What's necessary is a genuine (yes, it will cost a lot of money) to intervene to reverse the sense of alienation coupled with a sense of entitlement without contributing that exists in these communities.

Problem is, Cameron's bunch want cuts in social services, cuts in education and cuts in policing. It's the old Tory conundrum of wanting a safe, orderly society without being willing to pay a penny more in taxes to achieve it. What you sow, you reap....

1 ( +2 / -1 )

tkoind2

Afterall history shows that understanding these incidents helps prevent them happening again

and didnt they investigate the causes of the brixton riots and the other riots of that era, did they insvetigate the causes of the LA riots, did that stop future riots did it?

No it did not, head in the sand you say, haha you are the one with your head in the sand.

I have lived with the same types of people as these rioters - lived as in LIVED WITH, I know how they think and where they are coming from. I managed to break the cycle and get myself up on my feet, Note I said I was able to, and that is the whole thing, it is up to them to lift themselves and their standards, but most of this lot dont want to.

They expect the govt to provide everything for them, the govt abd the bleeding hearters.

I know how their minds work and the way they think, they be loving the fact the PC brigade is on the case.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

ExportExpert; the Brixton riots and those also in Southalla nd Tottenham (1985) werer race riots. These riots led to a change of policy in policing which involes the community policing policy. There was also an ending to suss laws in which a large amount of young men of West Indian descent were stopped and searched without evidenec of a crime being committed.

Since the riots of the 80's which led changes in law and police proceedure race riots of that scale have ended in the UK. Each riot and public disorder is different. Students rioting against tuition fees is unrelated to thsi for instance. The only emasures to prvent disorder are martial law. Is this the way forward?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Great writing, the writer should be getting the Pulitzer prize anytime soon, labeling race when EVERYONE was involved in the riots..

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

If this is about thuggery, then why doesn't this go on all the time?

Thuggery does go on all the time. UK has a pretty high violent crime rate among the G8.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

ExportExpert. As an American having lived in big cities, I also know the demographic we are talking about. But I see them very differently. I see them as people.

I grew up in a depressed area where good paying jobs had left the area and diminished the local economy from middle class to poor in a very short period of time. Most families wanted to work. Wanted to send their kids to school. Some did, like my parents. Others did not.

A generation or two later, the area is far worst than before. Crime, drugs, more unemployment. The cycle of poverty is well entrenched there. Yet the people there still long for better opportunities. But programs for schools have been cut, social programs to engage children in these areas have lost funding and opportunities for jobs have still remained very limited.

The same elements that empowered my family to extract my sister and I from this cycle are now gone. Thus less people manage to break the cycle.

You can dehumanize people all you want. But I have profound faith in the ability of people to pull themselves up when given the tools to do so. Which is simply not happening in enough places.

As for US riots. There have been far fewer of these as we start to better understand how they happen. Read your history and learn.

Finally, you even try to dehumanize those of us with more open minded views as "PC", "Liberal" etc... Yet it is our community that often are the ones taking the steps to help where government and the right fail.

As others have said here. You want security but you don't want to pay the cost to achieve it. I call that cheap and unrealistic thinking. But at its worst it is the worst kind of class elitism, which will inspire more uprisings,

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

"Orwell warned that the meanings of importan words would be corrupted by doublespeak and propaganda. I guess he nailed that as well as many other predictions we now see unfolding."

I hope this tkoind isn't trying to insinuate that George Orwell would approve of twhat the rioters and looters are doing. He would not recognize modern-day England. He would be shocked and horrified at what became of his country. People like to pretend 1984 is the only book he wrote but it wasn't. Please try and broaden your mind a little, mr tkoind2.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Steve PC - EDUCATION is the way forward, it will take generations and generations to sort it, there is no magic bullet to fix this sort of problem.

Problem goes way way back to the lack of education their parents had to be handed on to their offspring and so on and so on, if the parents wernt so undereducated there may not have been this situation.

Trouble is lots of these paople dont want to learn and dont want others to learn.

Eduaction can mean better job prospects which can lead away from poverty and depressed feelings.

No one on this forum or any other forum has the complete answers to solve these issues, and they cannot be solved in a few paragraphs, just like one cannot get their complte point across in a few paragraphs.

But the fact remains these people who did this rioting are scum.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Lieberman2012. How would you arrive at that bizarre conclusion? I was talking about the use of the word "anarchist" do read the posts again. And then we can talk about whose mind needs broadening.

note: Lieberman has a snowballs chance in hell of winning in 2012 for a long, and very good list of reasons. Broadening of the mind? Please.....

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

The onus was on them to tell us what their problem is, and since they have utterly failed to do that, its not bad to assume they actually have no goals worthy of noting.

Not necessarily. They may be too frustrated to repeat again what has always been ignored by the major political parties or institutions. They may not be educated enough to express it or bring it into a consolidated political agenda. They may be youths who simply want to get some attention from their parents. Or a combination of the above. Don't jump to conclusions quickly just because these people did not carry political banners with them. Look at how the Arabian spring started seemingly unpolitical and then quickly swept away whole regimes. Cameron looks a lot like Mubarak in his reactions.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Out of curiosity, why doesn't the Queen consider having a televised statement

1 ( +1 / -0 )

"... and they cannot be solved in a few paragraphs, just like one cannot get their complte point across in a few paragraphs." The first rational thing you have said about these people.

I do remind you that we are indeed talking about people. And people who have problems that must be resolved or those problems will come to haunt the rest of society. No one part of society can be fully secure and happy while another suffers in abject poverty. When will you people learn this fact?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

oracle Where are the Islam haters now?

BreitbartVictoriousAug. 12, 2011 - 01:15PM JST

In your imagination, as usual.

You, Alphaape, Lieberman2012, Spidapig24, WilliB and Madverts are all part of my imagination?

Suddenly I feel like the guy in Fight Club! But you are not as cools Tyler Durden, sorry.

Sorry, but one of you should have stepped forward and admitted that at least some Muslims can and do appeal for peace.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

As for US riots. There have been far fewer of these as we start to better understand how they happen. Read your history and learn.

Tkoind2, are you serious? There are far fewer? The US has a very serious problem at the moment with violent flash mobs. Specifically, gangs of black kids terrorizing whites. In Philadelphia and Chiacago the mayors have had to publicly adddress the issue.That doesn't happen unless the powers that be are worried about which lever you are gonna pull on election day. Heck, even the Wisconsin State Fair was marred by a mob that injured hundreds of people . , the list is growing.

But not many people want to talk about it partly because the election of Obama included the myth that we were officially post-racial , and you seem like one of the people with blinders on.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

ExportExpert,

Investigating the cause of the LA riots did stop riots... in LA. Same with Cincinnati. Each city is unique and requires different measures to combat violence, but creating a police state is never the answer.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

tkoind2Aug. 12, 2011 - 03:17PM JST

Second issue: "The label of "rioters" hardly suffices." So you resort to absconding with another, unrelated political movement's word and fulfill the predictions of Orwell in a most admirable fashion. Well done.

I have no idea why you are attacking me. My understanding of the word "anarchist" has two meanings and I meant one and not the other and I said that. If the reason I think the word has two meanings has to do with it being appropriated, know it was not appropriated by me. Also know, that no is stopping you from proving the contention that it was appropriated with malicious intent.

I am perfectly happy to use another term as soon as you offer one, as it is you making such a big issue. In fact, since it is such an issue to you, it seems like it is in your best interest to come up with an alternate term. I have offered you an opportunity to fight back, in pointing out that these people need a label so as to not be confused with people who actually do have political and social goals. Some thanks I get for it, just because you perceive that I use a word in a way that has been drummed into my head by the media. I don't work magic you know. I use words as they are taught to me. This is the first time I have had someone angrily harangue me about the "real" meaning of anachist.

So what's it going to be? You going to give me a different term, or is this group going to continue to enjoy the power of faceless anonymity? Or do you really think even a slim majority have a real political agenda, they just haven't figured out what it is yet?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I did not say that we live in a perfectly peaceful world where no outbursts of any scale happen. But I am saying that we have not had the major riots on the scale that we have seen in the Watts and similar level riots.

Part of that is attributable to major shifts in thinking about poverty in the 1970's. But we are dangerously headed back down the road that could indeed lead to greater rioting in the future. The cycle of poverty and growing poor classes pose substantial problems that society seems unwilling to acknowledge or address. Thus the problems fester and threaten to errupt in the future.

The intelligent learning cycle that took place in the 1970's is being buried under the poor sighted policies of the right who want secuity and safety but are unwilling to pay for what is required to achieve it.

Now with regards to race. I have never said we are out of the water of racism. And before you try lumping me in with the DEMs in America. I don't live in America and I am not a DEM.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

tkoind2

I thought everyone wanted security and safety not just those on the right !

I do know however that if you are one of the mob scum rioting you have safety and security, simply by the numbers you are with, that is untill the coppers turn up, but then once you leave court you will again experience security, and that should be in a prison.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

and the fact remains decent law abiding citizens do not go on mindless criminal rampages robbing and stealing SIMPLE FACT !!

These fleabg sum have no respect that is half the trouble, they dont even respect their parents or themselves for that matter

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Oracle, labels achieve nothing. Why do you need a label? These are people with issues that clearly gave way to these riots. If you dehumanize them into some kind of category, what do you achieve?

I don't think there is a classical political agenda here. I think there is a pissed off community of people who let their rage run rampant when the opportunity arose. Was this right? No! But it was to a certain degree inevitable. As it is in many urban centers around the world where frustration, anger and outrage are festering.

We cannot diminish this into thuggery alone. While I am sure a good part of it was simple opportunists taking the chance to loot and steal. But the scale and diversity of this mob suggests something else. It suggests underlying motivations that we need to get at and understand.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

ExportExpert "I thought everyone wanted security and safety not just those on the right !"

True, we all want security and safety. The difference is, some of us are willing to invest in making it happen.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

tkoind2Aug. 12, 2011 - 04:23PM JST

Oracle, labels achieve nothing.

They assist understanding. Besides, if you really think they acheive nothing, then why are you so mad at me for what you perceive as a labeling mistake? I think some humility is due here, not back pedaling.

We cannot diminish this into thuggery alone.

If the majority are just thugs, oh yes we can and we might as well. Of course we can analyze the underlying reasons why they are thugs, but its not really all that complicated. Its human nature really, and it takes a certain upbringing to make it unthinkable to perform this type of thuggery and to be able to fall back on that nature. When you figure out how to legislate an upbringing, you get back to me. Yes, I know that money helps, but its no answer. In fact, some people are so handicapped by their own DNA they will never have the capacity to be anything but rabble almost no matter what.

Some people say pit bulls can make good pets. The thing is that those people are master dog handlers and most politicians aren't.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I thought everyone wanted security and safety not just those on the right !

Of course everyone does. Locking up people and avoiding remedying the cause of the problems does nothing to provide security and safety.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Ahhhhh.... all young people with so much energy in their bodies ,if they don't work what will they use all that energy and times for all day? Low pay ,high pay, volunteer ....etc it doesn't matter, government should just make them work ,give them jobs!.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

And "Dude" social problems have been the root causes of riots all across history. When the problems are addressed, the riots stop. Fail to solve the problems and you will see more. This is the unvarnished truth.

Wow, so that means, if I don't give in to your thuggery, mob style, blackmails, you will just continue with your tantrum and force me into giving you more stuff, more FREE stuff, I mean, so what, you are entitled to whatever you want, if we don't give in, you will just forcefully take it! Yep, that all sounds so familiar....hmmm..where have I heard that kind of talk before?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

It's a bit worrying that with the encouragement of Cameron and other politicians, the courts seem to be handing out very heavy, custodial sentences. Some calmness and consideration might be appropriate in thinking about how to deal with this situation.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

bass4funkAug. 12, 2011 - 07:38PM JST

Yep, that all sounds so familiar....hmmm..where have I heard that kind of talk before?

The tale of Robin Hood?

The IRS?

Actually, I don't think caving to demands was mentioned. I think he was talking about addressing problems, which could be a lot of things besides caving in to thuggery. Some things, like subsidizing education, are considered to be a investment rather than a freebie.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Not to every condone violence, but the recent events and disorder in England seems like the logical conclusion to centuries of colonialism. Sad though. Food in England has benefited from immigrants, but now they are pissed off and what not.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Too much of one side. In my opinion, as someone who was in LA during the LA riots.....

Things like this usually do start with a spark, and it is usually because of an injustice, and it usually is because the injustice has gone on for too long. That's how it starts. But, in my opinion, the thugs quickly take over and turn it from a social message to "lets steal everything we can get our hands on." That's to say these people in this area do have legitimate gripes. I saw an interview with a black man talking about how often his grandson has been stopped and searched by police. I believed him. BUT....

It doesn't mean you ignore the message or the thugs. Right now I think the thugs have control of the message and that's not good. Their actions are counterproductive. I'm not going to sit here like tkoind2 and forgive everything I see and say that people aren't responsible for their own actions, and I'm not going to sit here and say to shoot protesters on site. Not everyone is stealing.

The police have to move in an restore order. Then you can work on dialogue. You have to get the thugs out of the picture who are in it only for personal gain. There are people who will seek to sweep the injustices under the rug and blame it all on the violent ones, and there will be people who will excuse the violent ones by mistaking it for legitimate protest. That's what the UK has to navigate through.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The IRS?

No, I mean the guy with the funny last name.

Actually, I don't think caving to demands was mentioned. I think he was talking about addressing problems, which could be a lot of things besides caving in to thuggery. Some things, like subsidizing education, are considered to be a investment rather than a freebie.

Of course, if you go on youtube, you can see a bunch of clips of these thugs saying things like, the rich need to pay up, we'll take our share, laughing and mocking the system. By the way, who exactly would be subsidizing the education? Where would the money come from?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Way to demonstrate an understanding of repression.

So China in early 2008 has riots in Tibet before the Olympic games. China cracks down using violence and shutting down internet and social media. The world decries China for its heavy-handedness.

England in 2011 has riots before the 2012 Olympic games. The Army may be called out, water cannons and plastic bullets to be used. The PM wants to shut down social media.

Interesting how a 'modern democracy' like England feels the need to respond similarly to backwards, totalitarian China.

I agree with tkoind2. The people on the streets are the people of Britain. The people in power are toffs with inherited wealth and elite education. the governments reaction is so Big Brother that it's makes China look free. For example, making poor people homeless, is this how an educated nation tackles the problem of poverty, desperation and social exclusion? The only reaction to such hard line policies is an armed rebellion similar to Libya.

Are you people seriously reading the same news as the rest of the world?? How much clearer can it be made that these riots are not about social injustice in any way/shape/form but simply an excuse for young people to go wild. This isn't Kent State and comparing the riots in London to those in China are apples and oranges (more like apples and grapes) in my opinion. Whether there is class or social unrest and disparity in Britain - or in many/most other nations is not a question - but stating that these riots are a result of that disparity is fallacy.

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But the scale and diversity of this mob suggests something else. It suggests underlying motivations that we need to get at and understand.

Yes, it illustrates that if we would stop this new age PC bullsh#t and discipline our children, and actually take interest and care in raising them, they would not be disaffected animals running wild in the streets. This is on the parents, not the British government. It is time for people to rise up and act. But rather than blaming and burning the actions taken should be more in the lines of personal responsibility for their own behavior and that of the children they readily choose to have.

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Tigermothll, I'm in strong agreement with you. I'm glad to see someone on this forum with common sense.

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...how Deprived they live...in there(sic) so called Great country.

You obviously don't understand the meaning of "Great" in "Great Britain". It's got nothing to do with "great" in its usual sense. Look it up and educate yourself a little.

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Apologists for the rioting scum have their work cut out for them:

England (AP) — The Burger Bar Boys. The Cash or Slash Money Crew. The Bang Bang Gang. These names sound straight out of a dime-store novel, but they're real-life Birmingham gangs — some of the underground armies that spearheaded England's worst riots in a generation. As Britain comes to grips with the causes of the past week's descent into anarchy, Prime Minister David Cameron has identified the growth of gangs as a key factor and is recruiting high-profile American anti-gang experts to help bring them to heel.

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Breit... you do the cause of civic peace and order a great disservice by trying to see this topic in black and white. It isn't! And doing so robs you of any ability to intelligently address the problem and thus reduce the risk of having it happen again.

Not every person in that riot acted out of the same motivations. Where there people just out for opportunistic crime? Yes! I am sure there were. Were there people acting out social and economic frustrations? I am sure there were.

My point is simple, you cannot solve a problem unless you understand it and learn to understand the perspective of the people involved. When you do that you have greater capacity to take workable steps towards a solution.

The knee jerk punitive approach does not work, never has and never will. It is far more likely to insite greater conflict and social strife.

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