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Anti-Islamist protests flare after British soldier butchered near London barracks

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Disgusting terror attack. My thoughts go out to the soldier who was killed and to his family and friends who must deal with the grief. It angered me when I saw this news. To think that a British soldier could be killed on British soil by extremists is shocking.

That's all I will say though because I dare not post what I posted on my facebook.

7 ( +14 / -7 )

Crazy.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

To think that a British soldier could be killed on British soil by extremists is shocking.

As opposed to a child being killed by an indiscriminate bomb or bullet somewhere else in the world? I don't understand the "shock" just because he was a British soldier.

Terror attacks are terror attacks no matter where they occur. And all should be "shocking" in my opinion.

-8 ( +25 / -33 )

Speechless. At least they caught the sickos.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

As opposed to a child being killed by an indiscriminate bomb or bullet somewhere else in the world? I don't understand the "shock" just because he was a British soldier.

You don't understand the amount of pride that we have in our soldiers. We are proud of our boys and girls who serve in the British Armed Forces.

So the thought that people would kill one of our soldiers outside his barracks is disgusting to us.

6 ( +18 / -13 )

Sick. These people aren't fighting for a cause, they are brainwashed murderers doing someone else's bidding.

26 ( +26 / -1 )

Rest in peace to the poor soldier. Footage coming in suggests these cowardly terrorists may have been home-grown British. Shame the police snipers didn't end their worthless lives: they will be "punished" with free bed and halal meals, and be back on the streets one day.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

You don't understand the amount of pride that we have in our soldiers. We are proud of our boys and girls who serve in the British Armed Forces.So the thought that people would kill one of our soldiers outside his barracks is disgusting to us.

Maybe I don't, yet, don't misunderstand me here, British soldiers are targets for these fanatics, just as much as Americans or other "western" military personal, and all those countries have pride in their men and women in uniform just as much, and maybe more, than the Brits have for their own.

It's disgusting no matter the place and I pray that his soul rests in peace.

4 ( +17 / -13 )

One of the killers in a very short video speaks with a London ascent. It happened on a very busy street in broad daylight. The same killer last week was in Woolwich town center ranting and raving at the public.

For photos and videos http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329089/Woolwich-attack-Two-men-hack-soldier-wearing-Help-Heroes-T-shirt-death-machetes-suspected-terror-attack.html

8 ( +8 / -0 )

News is now coming in that mosques throughout London are coming under attack. Islamists will cop revenge attacks unless they come out and unequivocally condemn these cowardly terrorists and their motives. Awful time to be in London...

3 ( +7 / -4 )

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329236/Woolwich-attack—Moment-heroic-woman-tries-remonstrate-knife-wielding-soldier-killer-police-arrived-scene.html#ixzz2U4ACZkZi

Those British women showed great courage today staring down jihadists bloody meat cleavers still in hand. Very strange they didn't run off, but just stood there as if they were waiting for the police.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

The two killers weren't some kind of Islamic terrorists on a Jihad. Even if they followed Islam I think an investisgation will reveal their faith was not that strong.

3 ( +9 / -6 )

KariHarukaMay. 23, 2013 - 07:51AM JST

You don't understand the amount of pride that we have in our soldiers. We are proud of our boys and girls who serve in the British Armed Forces.

No we are not. For the last 10 years our boys and girls have been doing America's bidding and terrorizing anyone or anything who doesn't follow the US Middle East party line (Isael can do wrong, extra judicial drone killings are OK and democracy is a privillege afforded only to non-muslims).

-13 ( +10 / -23 )

Time to hunt these terrorists dogs down!! These 2 bastard terrorists should not be killed off, no, not right away, “let's interrogate" these 2 bastard cowards for a good long time, maybe make some room for them out at Camp X Ray, Guantanamo, Cuba too! Poor British soldier!! RIP and may these 2 evil dogs get what they so badly deserve behind bars!! My guess, these fools are only tr tip of the iceberg!!

5 ( +12 / -7 )

Burakumin desu:

" News is now coming in that mosques throughout London are coming under attack "

Nonsense. Has never happened, does not happen now. After each islamist terror attack, the government and press bend over backward to claim that islam has nothing to do with radical islam. And muslim speakers immediately deflect attention from the islamist attack to imagined revenge attacks which never materialize.

It is the typical playbook.

9 ( +12 / -3 )

lizz:

" Very strange they didn't run off, but just stood there as if they were waiting for the police. "

Nothing strange about it, and not untypical. In their minds, they were doing gods work. And if shot by the police, a marty`s place in heaven at the feet of god and with virgins at their disposal would be guaranteed.

This is the same mindset that brought us suicide bombers. No tought of escape there, either.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

I wonder if drugs were involved. This kind of insane savagery would suggest so.

-12 ( +3 / -15 )

@ WilliB and Dog - Im just passing on what Ive read 10 minutes ago in the smh.com.au - Reuters/AFP. At least 2 men arrested so far, one after storming a mosque. Apparently some mob called the British Defence League is involved. I agree these events overnight are "just not the British way" - but sadly these events are very real.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@WilliB As Burakumin pointed out concerning reprisals, the EDL are already on the case. They are a far-right group populated by football hooligans and similar types who have attempted to gain respectability by emphasizing their dislike of Islam snd other foreign ideologies ( nrather than focusing on skin colour. I have no time for any religion,

0 ( +3 / -3 )

The two killers have survived the police shooting and are in hospital, one in serious condition. The dead man was an army cadet from a nearby army barracks. The killers first mounted the pavement (sidewalk) in a car, probably stolen, and ran the army cadet over. Then they jumped out and started hacking him, probably trying to behead him. The cadet wasn't in uniform, so how did the killers even know he was in the army?

I think a police investigation will reveal something else than some kind of Islamic Jihad terrorist attack.

The killers were black, probably from a depraved area of Woolwich. Low education achievements. Long unemployment. A fair amount of racism in their lives. Gangs and drugs. Petty crime. Lack of a strong father figure in the family. No passports and have ever been outside of the country. They don't come from Muslim families. All of their hate for the establishment builds up and the idea of Islam provides them with a channel for their hate devil, which won the day.

I think at least one of the killers will survive the police shooting and will face trial.

Its very convenient for the British gov't to call this an Islamic terrorist attack before it even knew the full facts of this tragic event.

9 ( +11 / -3 )

Sorry! I wanted to finish that with - the danger of reprisals is very real, particularly in a place with a history of racial tensions like Woolwich.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

EDL is the Englsh Defense League, which is mostly low level thugs.

9 ( +10 / -1 )

Zichi, as always, first thank you for the update, and for the information as well!

0 ( +3 / -3 )

This is a truly barbaric act that has no basis in Islam

But it does. Here are some extracts from the 9th sura of the Quran, which was cited by one of the killers:

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush." -- 9:5

"Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people and remove the fury in the believers' hearts." -- 9:14-15

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled." -- 9:29

"O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination." -- 9:73

"O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous." -- 9:123

Courtesy of the "religion of peace".

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Muslims again, eh? I thought as much.

They apparently shouted "allahu akbar" while trying to cut off his head with a knife. That's wholly consistent with Islamic terrorism, for those of you trying to downplay the Muslim angle.

Remember what the Met chief said: "It's not a question of if, but when." So be prepared the next one, and the next one, and the next one. This is now your destiny, Britain.

11 ( +18 / -7 )

As opposed to a child being killed by an indiscriminate bomb or bullet somewhere else in the world?

Do you actually think there is any comparison here? Two men stalked an unarmed plain-clothes British soldier (I assume anyway as he was wearing a T-shirt and to the best of my knowledge even soldiers aren't permitted to go about armed off base), approached him, brutally murdered him on the street, and then asked people to take pictures of them. And you're going to compare that to uniformed soldiers fighting an enemy that hides among the civilian population, uses their neighbors as human shields, and kills their own countrymen in suicide bombings?

Your attempt to make a bizarre statement on the equality of human life and death sounds very much like a justification of a senseless and brutal murder. Your statements play into exactly what extremists desire, vindication. That they are no more evil than the people that they fight against and statements like yours make their narrative that much more pervasive within public opinion.

7 ( +12 / -5 )

Why are they terrorists? Everyones a terrorist these days. The governments excuse to do whatever they want to you. Arent they just psychotic murderers?

Get out of their country and tighten up your immigration policies, that`ll solve most of your problems.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

The TV coverage (including video from bus and mobile phones) was quite arresting. Looked and sounded like 2 normal English men you might see in any suburb of London. Homegrown terror indeed.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@jefflee

They apparently shouted "allahu akbar" while trying to cut off his head with a knife. That's wholly consistent with Islamic terrorism, for those of you trying to downplay the Muslim angle.

Just because they shouted "Allahu Akbar" don't mean they are true Muslims who became Jihad terrorists.

The British gov't needs to be very careful how it handles this tragic event. The wrong info and mob rule on the street could so easily spark a race riot in that part of London.

1 ( +6 / -6 )

There are many fragile communities and Woolwich is also one.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Don't call it a "terrorist" attack.Just some knuckleheads who probably aren't even Muslims.Pathetic losers and no doubt karma will catch up with them when they get in jail.

2 ( +6 / -5 )

It always amazes me how a few words can suddenly make people illogical and emotional and start to let loose with a diatribe.

6 ( +9 / -4 )

Two men stalked an unarmed plain-clothes British soldier (I assume anyway as he was wearing a T-shirt and to the best of my knowledge even soldiers aren't permitted to go about armed off base)

First off, what difference does wearing a T-shirt matter? I don't follow your trend of though how what he may have been wearing matters? And armed or otherwise, what does that matter either?

Do you actually think there is any comparison here?

Yes, based only on what the article had written and not on any of the following information, it was an indiscriminate act of violence. The point is to spread fear and terror, and that is what terrorists aim for, whether it be targeted against a child or member of the military.

Your attempt to make a bizarre statement on the equality of human life and death sounds very much like a justification of a senseless and brutal murder.

Not at all, and while it will sound so very cold and heartless I suppose, what makes this soldiers death any more important or significant than any of the hundreds of thousands of others that have died in the so-called name of God?

They are all shocking and all should be as well. Or do you view this soldiers death more meaningful or important than any of the other innocents that die because of terrorists?

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

maria:

" I wonder if drugs were involved. This kind of insane savagery would suggest so. "

The only drug involved is a fanatical belief in a radical ideology.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

zichi:

" I think a police investigation will reveal something else than some kind of Islamic Jihad terrorist attack. "

No, it will not. Although, of course, the media will try to find something.

The killer's rant that they were were fighting for Allah was caught on camera; you can listen to it yourself.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Footage emerged showing one of the men carrying a blood-covered knife and meat cleaver and saying to the camera: “We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you.” The black man, dressed in a hooded jacket and black woolly hat, made a number of political statements. “We must fight them as they fight us. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,” he says, speaking in a London accent. He adds: “I apologize that women have had to witness this today, but in our land our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government, they don’t care about you.”

If you hate the country so much, why don't you go live in Pakistan or some other Muslim country? Go fight British soldiers and marines there if you think you're so righteous.

“Our next generation are being taught through schools that Islam is a religion of peace. “It’s not. It never has been. What you saw today is Islam,” he added. “Everyone’s had enough.”

Comments like this don't help. I've served in both Afghanistan and Iraq in the Royal Marines. While I was there, most of the people were great people. The extremists spoil the image of Islam.

I'm sure there are other people on here who served and saw that not every Muslim is an animal.

9 ( +12 / -3 )

AKB fan:

" Looked and sounded like 2 normal English men "

On the tape, we hear: "We swear by almighty Allah that we will never stop fighting you. The only reasons we have done this is because muslims are dying every day." "Allah Akubar!!

Well, I guess that "sounds like 2 normal English men" these days....

5 ( +9 / -4 )

Yubaru:

" Religions aren't the problem, people are! "

When religions are political, they are the problem. What is the difference between a radical ideology and a radical religion anyway? Both are belief systems. And people act on their beliefs.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

I agree religion more or less has nothing to do with it, but probably for a different reason..

They will claim they are muslim.. others will say they aren't or can't be.. much like the Christian guy who killed all those poor people, who claimed he was but everyone denied he could be..

Who decides?

Here is the problem, there is zero substantive truth about religion. It can't be the basis for decision or morals, it is all based on fallacy after fallacy.

Laws and justice must be based on reasonable and rational ideas of freedom and equality.

I think we are heading to a new era, and I hope its one based on truth and reality and not the superstitious musings of stone age tribes with less understanding of the world than a modern 5 year old, and while each person will be free to believe whatever nonsense they like in their head, we hold people accountable by their actions.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Sorry I mean in the first line, "I agree a specific religion more or less has nothing to do with it, but probably for a different reason..

0 ( +0 / -0 )

When religions are political, they are the problem. What is the difference between a radical ideology and a radical religion anyway? Both are belief systems. And people act on their beliefs.

No religion is political.

People are the problem.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

Just because they shouted "Allahu Akbar" don't mean they are true Muslims who became Jihad terrorists.

Just like murderous youths chanting "Sieg Heil" in the streets doesn't make them true Nazis? Just confused youths, perhaps? LOL. "Allahu Akbar" asserts Muslim supremacy, and is commonly shouted/chanted in terrorism and war.

Beheading non-Muslims with knives is part of the "package," seen in Chechnya and with the Western contractors held hostage, to name only two of many examples.

8 ( +11 / -3 )

Yubaru

" No religion is political, "

Not true. If a religion wants to replace secular law with religious law and re-create the society that its founder created, it is absolutely political.

You really should make broad generalizations like that.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

WilliB

No, it will not. Although, of course, the media will try to find something. The killer's rant that they were were fighting for Allah was caught on camera; you can listen to it yourself.

I haven't denied that the killers shouted about Allah but that alone does not make them true practicing Islamists or Jihad terrorists.

You only have to look at the history of 'mob rule' to see what happens when people act before trying to find out the real facts of an event.

Its probably an inconvenient truth for you when it turns out they weren't the Jihad terrorists you might have hoped they were.

I know London very well, having lived and worked there for 25 years. I also know about the problems of race, depraved areas, long term unemployment, drugs, alcohol, gangs, lack of equal opportunities.......it all leads to hate building up in a person.

Sorry to burst your Islamic Jihad Terrorist bubble, but I guess just like a bus, another one will be along soon!

1 ( +6 / -6 )

zichi:

" Just because they shouted "Allahu Akbar" don't mean they are true Muslims who became Jihad terrorists. "

Oh really?? Who else shouts "Allahu Akbar"?

6 ( +8 / -2 )

I agree a specific religion more or less has nothing to do with it, but probably for a different reason..

All religion has the same issue, even by many adherents they admit, there is little that can be proven in what we consider reality to be true about its claims.

Who decides who is a true "insert religion" when there is no process for determining this.

So muslim, christian, buddist, hindu.. all of these things are private matter and have no place in law or governance.

People must be judged on their actions, based on ideals of equality, rights and freedoms for all individuals.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

WilliB Do you know London/Woolwich, its not in Chechnya.

0 ( +4 / -5 )

zichi:

" know London very well, having lived and worked there for 25 years. I also know about the problems of race, depraved areas, long term unemployment, drugs, alcohol, gangs, lack of equal opportunities.......it all leads to hate building up in a person. "

I know you are desperate to find a politically correct explanation, but "race, depraved areas, long term unemployment, drugs, alcohol, gangs, lack of equal opportunities" do not explain a terrorist murder, and certainly not one where the killers are actually on tape stating that they were committing it for Allah.

Also, why is it that you pretend this is happening out of context? Islamist terrorism is hardly new to the UK. Do you also try to explain the 7/7 subway bombings or the Glasgow airport bombings by "race" or "poverty"?

What about the home-grown islamist preachers like Omar Bakri and Arnim Choudary who are constantly calling for Jihad against the British infidels (on UK welfare money, to boot?)

You really need to suspend rational thinking to find a convenient explanation for this.

10 ( +11 / -1 )

Sorry to burst your Islamic Jihad Terrorist bubble,

no need to say "sorry. -- I don't think you "burst" anything in your argument, The prime minister has cancelled a meeting with his French counterpart and the home secretary has met with MI5 over the incident, based on the intelligence gathered so far. Quite a fuss over a random street attack, wouldn't you say?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

If these two killers are true Muslims, then the police investigation will reveal which Mosque they belonged to. If they don't belong to a Mosque, attend daily prayer and converted to Islam then they are not actually Muslims.

5 ( +7 / -3 )

zichi:

" If they don't belong to a Mosque, attend daily prayer and converted to Islam then they are not actually Muslims. "

So you are the arbiter now of who is a "true muslim" and an "untrue muslims"? I would like to see you convince these two that they are actually not muslims because, well, because you say so.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

Zichi, so often you make very insightful and great comments, but I have to disagree with you on this one, who says that these are the requirements of being muslim?

If you say the book then that makes equally almost all christians not christian, for example, and I would assume a large majority of follows of all religion to "not really be religion xxxxxx"

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@Jefflee

The prime minister has cancelled a meeting with his French counterpart and the home secretary has met with MI5 over the incident, based on the intelligence gathered so far. Quite a fuss over a random street attack, wouldn't you say?

It suits the gov't better if it a real terrorist attack. Easier to explain away and give fodder for further laws. If its a result of gov't policy or lack of it, and dealing with the issues of inner city depraved areas, racism, lack of equal opportunities etc, then that becomes something of an embarrassment for them.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

To think that a British soldier could be killed on British soil by extremists is shocking.

Short memory syndrome. This attack was on the same day that a man was charged with the 1982 Hyde Park bomb which killed four soldiers. And a pub frequented by soldiers of Woolwich barracks was bombed in 1974.

The 'Troubles' (an Irish understatement) were only resolved through engagement and dialogue.

To far too many impressionable youth today, the only engagement they can see is drone attacks, and the only dialogue is water boarding.

The 'West' cannot claim moral authority while the obscenities of illegal prisons, outsourced torture and extrajudicial killings continue.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

WilliB

I have never said that there are no Jihad Terrorists or extreme Islamists in Britain. There certainly are. Like you say, there were the 7/7 London bombings.

But this event does not fit the profile of a Jihad Terrorist attack. I'm not interested in finding political correct answers to wash away problems but I am interested in trying to find and understand what happened before jumping on an anti Islam bandwagon that you are always so quick to do.

These two killers could also just be on the fringe of the Muslim story without being full blown ones.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

JeffLee - "Muslims again, eh? I thought as much."

This is an incredibly dangerous attitude and needs to be called out immediately.

This murder was carried out by an extremist. Whatever religion he belongs to may be identified at some point.

Let's be absolutely clear - the vast majority of Muslims do not go around killing people.

I'll repeat that: the vast majority of Muslims do not go around killing people.

Jeff, if you are going to play this game, then why not blame all Christians when one Christian extremist blows up an abortion clinic?

Yes, that's stupid, too.

If the average Muslim in the street suffers reprisals, gets hassled, abused, etc. as a result of this, it really will highlight the shallow-minded attitudes of British. 

If the average Muslim in the street was not involved and had no connection to the killer, why hassle him?

He is not involved. 

British would do themselves a huge favour by stepping back and waiting until the police investigation wraps up before they do anything.

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

Whatever the background, it was not a "terrorist" attack. That would be an attack to use fear to further some ends. This was a revenge attack, pure and simple, just like in war. Who exactly is fighting who is not clear though. Muslims/Christians/Westerners/Africans/Middle Easterns.. who exactly is on which side?

1 ( +5 / -4 )

If the average Muslim in the street suffers reprisals, gets hassled, abused, etc. as a result of this, it really will highlight the shallow-minded attitudes of British.

So, most Muslims aren't terrorists (agree 100%) but all British are shallow-minded?

Double standards?

11 ( +12 / -1 )

zichi:

" But this event does not fit the profile of a Jihad Terrorist attack. "

It absolutely does. Attacking soldiers to shouts of Allah Akbar and declaring that this is revenge for the supposed attacks on muslims in muslim lands is almost a textbook definition of jihadist terrorism.

How is this different from e.g. the Fort Hood shooting by Col. Hassan? (Unless you buy into the administration line that that was a "workplace incident".)

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Yubaru, I wholeheartedly agree with your first comment on this thread but do no agree with this one:

"Religions aren't the problem, people are!"

Both are, in my view.  Without religions, people would have a few less ideologies to misinterpret and use to justify killing people in the name of whatever god their religion follows.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

i just wants to say something @japantoday please get the news correct British council didn't say that these to sikos was motivated by their faith .. it was an eye witness who said that ..

http://www.mcb.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2333:pr-template&catid=40:press-release

and about this act .. its an act of insanity and terror ,and i mean not only killing this poor man but also killing all innocent people caused by the British government . @japantoday please stop stereo typing against Islam . and for all the followers here ..i tell you ..even if this siko has a point he is wrong and Islam teachings never asked him to do so .. my only guess is that he did it because he went crazy or had some tragedy happened caused of some of the foreign policies of UK government or he is just siko .

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

zichi:

" These two killers could also just be on the fringe of the Muslim story without being full blown ones. "

How do you define the difference between the "fringe of the muslim story" and "full blown ones". Your terminology is a bit confusing.

It would seem to me that by definition, religious fundamentalists who go so far as to commit murder are more than "full blown" believers.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

NZ2011

Zichi, so often you make very insightful and great comments, but I have to disagree with you on this one, who says that these are the requirements of being muslim?

All religions have requirements that their followers must meet. You can't just wake up one morning and decide from then on you are a Roman Catholic, you would first have to be have a batistism and agree to follow the teachings of Christ. You can't suddenly decide you are Jewish without meeting their requirements. A Muslem must first convert, join a Mosque and follow the teachings.

5 ( +6 / -2 )

Not true. If a religion wants to replace secular law with religious law and re-create the society that its founder created, it is absolutely political.

Religion wants to replace nothing. It's peoples interpretation of "religion" that causes the problems.

If religion were so bad then pray tell why are the overwhelming majority of the followers of Islam so very peaceful and similarly outraged that others in the name of "their" religion are terrorists? It's the same "religion", just different interpretations made by man.

You really should make broad generalizations like that.

I do believe you meant to say "shouldn't" correct? I do believe that you should learn to separate religion and how people interpret it to mean.

Religion does not kill people, religion does not maim people. Simply put religion is a belief in or worship of God, religions are bastardized by man and an individuals interpretation of it. That is not a generalization, that is a fact.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

This was a revenge attack, pure and simple, just like in war.

But how can you differentiate between the two? The attacks on the twin towers were an act of revenge and terror as well. The same could be said here too.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

WilliB

zichi:

" But this event does not fit the profile of a Jihad Terrorist attack. "

It absolutely does. Attacking soldiers to shouts of Allah Akbar and declaring that this is revenge for the supposed attacks on muslims in muslim lands is almost a textbook definition of jihadist terrorism.

How did these killers even know the guy they killed was a young army cadet? They drove a car onto the sidewalk pinning him to a signpost, then jumped out and attacked him. The army cadet wasn't in uniform? If they had waited outside of the Woolwich army barracks and waited for someone to leave and then decide to follow them and kill them. Well all of that will be on CCTV footage, because all barracks and the streets around them have CCTV as do all the main streets in Britain.

2 ( +4 / -3 )

Yubaru

Quite easily. As I said terrorism is the use of terror to intimidate others or further certain ends above and beyond the act itself. The attack on the WTC was a threat to the US to remove soldiers from Saudi Arabia, and warn the general population, not only an intention to kill 3000 people. Here I see it just as "you kill us, we kill you", just as in war. That's why they attacked a soldier. That is of course assuming what the killers said was true but we don't know anything about their background as of now.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Zichi, this is my point,

Which Christians now promote slavery or the stoning of naughty children? Not many I would guess, but the book, which they are suppose to believe and follow says that those exact things are allowed and tells you how to go about it. And Jesus... do they have bank accounts or insurance.. sparing some "thought for the morrow" thats against "his" teachings too. I'm purposefully going to the more extreme examples but my point stands, who decides.

No one can, when you are baptised, or brought into a church in any fashion.. nothing changes, nothing detectable by anything we can measure in reality.

So then we must refer to the teachings of people of power of those religions, clearly that doesn't work else we wouldn't have 30,000 or so different denominations of christianity alone.

So by who's rules must we determine what religion someone is, simply we can't, and the really frightening thing is if people are being true the brutal stone age thinking that gave birth to these religions then what happened is probably "ok" by them remembering the major two both document and promote genocide and death to infidels.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

That's why they attacked a soldier. That is of course assuming what the killers said was true but we don't know anything about their background as of now.

And we also do not know if they knew he was a soldier either. That is based upon an assumption. But the two could very well be one and the same, a revenge attack and terror attack as well.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

These two guys did this to provoke the English Defence League and British National Party into retaliation and low and behold, the moronic apes in these two groups retaliate. A very depressing situation.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Yubaru

True, and how much is revenge and how much is terrorism can vary wildly, but this seems a much more focused attack on someone who could literally be fighting in the war than the WTC attacks which were on civilians innocent of any bloodshed but merely represented "the West", which is why they were seen almost purely as terrorist attacks.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Sickening. This is savagery, no other words for it.

My thoughts are with the family of this innocent young man.

There are a few radical preachers around who have been radicalising youth for too long. Its time we took action on them and ensured that these guys are put out of action.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

JeffLee - "Muslims again, eh? I thought as much." This is an incredibly dangerous attitude and needs to be called out immediately.

I need to apologize for being right?

"I'll repeat that: the vast majority of Muslims do not go around killing people."

The vast majority of any large group doesn't go around killing people. It's a ludicrous suggestion and simply wouldn't be practical for the group in question.

However, nearly all the conflicts taking place in the world right now involve Muslims. When you consider the utter intolerance of their medieval ideology, I guess that's not surprising.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Back on topic please.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The recruits in the barracks will now be warned what T-shirts not to wear in public! Sad, but perhaps common sense in 21st C Britain?

PS zichi, no areas of London are depraved. Some might be deprived, though.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Absolutely sick behaviour in any country and culture. People without bomb making skills and no real training or budgets will resort to this kind of terrorism. It is easy to pick out soldiers anywhere: short hair, physical bearing, youth, accents different than locals, etc. What will change for the bases in the UK for now is they may implement a buddy system, maybe a curfew and everyones situational awareness will be on "11" - for a while.....until it doesnt happen and time passes. And now watch all the ignorant whites hate groups react. Rinse, repeat. Tragic.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This will possibly lead to further freedoms being lost in the name of security. There will be attacks on Muslims and other dark people and if there is warm sunny weather, there will no doubt be violent demo's and possible riots. It is an awful crime but is blown out of proportion by media and those with an agenda.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

@nandakandamanda

PS zichi, no areas of London are depraved. Some might be deprived, though.

yes, thank you!

2 ( +2 / -0 )

One man killed another man. Nothing more than that. No reason to talk about race, religion, politics or anything else. Don't need to talk about the nation coming together to face adversity and all that hogwash. This is one man killing another man. It's murder. Give the perp a trial. Don't shine a spotlight on him.

“We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you.” <-- ignore this bluster. He just wants attention. Paying attention to it will just make matters worse.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

There is no confirmation that the victim was a soldier. The only thing that can be said is the the victim was wearing a T-shirt for a military charity Help for Heroes. Some reports have him also carrying a military style backpack. The only one that called him a soldier is the President of France but British PM Cameron at the same press meeting did not confirm this. The attack was more in line with line with conflicts in sub saharan african.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I think everyone in Woolwich, in Britain even, should buy and wear Help for Heroes t-shirts in solidarity with the victim of this despicable crime.

This is a good way to demonstrate the revulsion of society at such barbarity.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

zichi:

" How did these killers even know the guy they killed was a young army cadet? "

They assumed he was. Do you expect jihadis to make painstakingly sure who they kill? The 7/7 subway bombers certainly did not do that, and neither did the Glasgow airport bombers, the Madrid subway bombers, the pilots of 9/11, the sunnis who go and blow up Shiite mosques in Iraq (and vice versa).... shall I go on?

It is really quite stunning that you want to double-guess the motivations of people who were ON CAMERA proudly explaining what they had done. How in the world can you claim to know them better they they know themselves??

2 ( +5 / -3 )

So far, all Islamic terrorists attacks in Britain have involved bombs.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

direct quote from one of the suspects,

"We swear by the Almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reason we have killed this man this is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth... We must fight them as they fight us. An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. I apologize that women had to witness this today but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government. They don’t care about you."

5 ( +5 / -0 )

falsflagsteve:

" his will possibly lead to further freedoms being lost in the name of security. There will be attacks on Muslims and other dark people "

Firstly, no there won´t be be attacks on muslims. (Other than those carried out by fellow muslims.) Secondly, where do you get off to label muslims as "dark people"??? Islam has nothing to do with skin colour. In fact, the majority of muslims world-white is lily-white.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

WilliB,

so far the British gov't have not released any information or evidence which shows that this was an Islamic terrorist attack, they have only said it was.

They haven't released the idenities of the young guy who was killed nor the killers. They haven't even confirmed that the dead young man was an army cadet.

I expect very soon, we'll know if it was a terrorist attack or not.

So far, Islamic terrorist attacks have involved bombs aimed at killing the maximum number of people.

2 ( +5 / -4 )

I do not understand the morbid curiosity that the people passing by had in wanting to see or take pictures, invited or otherwise.

I do believe I would be off and running in the opposite direction. Did they not fear for their own lives?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

zichi:

" so far the British gov't have not released any information or evidence which shows that this was an Islamic terrorist attack, they have only said it was. "

They are ON CAMERA for crying out loud. Are you still not aware of that?

" So far, Islamic terrorist attacks have involved bombs aimed at killing the maximum number of people. "

No. Islamic terrorist attacks have involved speed boats, airplanes, guns, SUVs, caterpillars, and yes, knifes.

I don´t know how you come up with all these new definitions.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

a response from the Muslim community in London,

"This is a truly barbaric act that has no basis in Islam and we condemn this unreservedly. Our thoughts are with the victim and his family. We understand the victim is a serving member of the armed forces. Muslims have long served in this country’s armed forces, proudly and with honour. This attack on a member of the armed forces is dishonourable, and no cause justifies this murder."

8 ( +10 / -2 )

The violence in the Arab world is an insult to Muslims everywhere. It is ongoing and large groups of people are murdered weekly or monthly. In fact I find it astonishing that attacks of this sort ( in the UK) do not occur with more regularity. The upshot of this is that the English (people)should question exactly why Iraq,Afganistan and Libya were invaded and why people are still dying on a regular basis.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

kurisupisu - Libya was not invaded.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

WilliB

They are ON CAMERA for crying out loud. Are you still not aware of that?

Yes, I watched the video filmed by a member of the public, so what's your point on that? Read the news articles, watched the TV, looked at the photo's. What's your point if you have one other than your usuall bandwagon rants.

" So far, Islamic terrorist attacks have involved bombs aimed at killing the maximum number of people. "

No. Islamic terrorist attacks have involved speed boats, airplanes, guns, SUVs, caterpillars, and yes, knifes.

I'm only talking about terrorist attacks in Britain, which the post is about, not about what's happening across the world.

2 ( +3 / -2 )

kurispisu: The upshot of this is that the English (people)should question exactly why Iraq,Afganistan and Libya were invaded and why people are still dying on a regular basis.

If a Brit went to Saudi Arabia and starting killing people and he says it's because he is sick of injustices by Muslims, would you recommend that they start to get introspective?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

They then stayed at the scene, asking passers-by to photograph and film them.

I'm ready for my closeup, Mr. Peckinpah.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

" so far the British gov't have not released any information or evidence which shows that this was an Islamic terrorist attack, they have only said it was."

They are ON CAMERA for crying out loud. Are you still not aware of that?

The video I saw just has the guy saying something like "I apologize that women had to see this today, but in our land our women see the same...".

I did not hear anything from the killer about Allah or Islam.

I also want to repeat a comment from Ali Ahmed: "i just wants to say something @japantoday please get the news correct British council didn't say that these to sikos was motivated by their faith .. it was an eye witness who said that.."

-23 ( +2 / -25 )

The Islam practiced by a majority of the world isn't the problem, but the radical Islam used by terrorists certainly is. I do want to remind people who love to point to foreign policy that a vast majority of Muslims who are killed by terrorists are other Muslims. People seem to want to pick and choose their reasons and justifications like a cafeteria.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Islam has nothing to do with skin colour. In fact, the majority of muslims world-white is lily-white.

India, Pakistan, Malaysia and Indonesia are the countries with the largest Muslim populations. Hardly lily-white. Muslims can be any race, but they do tend to be non-Caucasian.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

1 in 10 people under 25 in the UK is muslim, and given the fact that they're out-breeding the native population and most arranged marraiges involve visa applications, that number will grow rapidly.

Maybe we should do a deal. Give them London and hope they leave us alone.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

WilliB, I am British and monitor social networking sites and news. I know what is going on in the UK, The EDF are already on one of their chidish warpaths which are aginst dak people and Muslims. Many of those people are ignorant and know nothing except hatred spewed by some of their peers. The ignorance shiwn by many regarding this is beyond belief. There are diviions slready and people on both sides make it worse. I am neutral, i see people as what they are human.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

@frontandcentre

Libya wasn't invaded?

It was pacified?

Made secure?

Locked down?

Liberated?

The euphemisms know no bounds but the result is the same.......

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

It appears that most, if not all, posters here agree that the killer is a sicko. In other news on JapanToday is "Nations to boost aid to Syria rebels until Assad goes", with a pic of British Foreign Secretary William Hague. I wonder if Hague realizes that the group he is backing is filled with people who are just as sick, if not more, than the above killer.

-21 ( +3 / -24 )

Exactly Bluescript and it appears that the killing was most certainly a response to the massive military campaigns conducted by the British........

0 ( +2 / -2 )

The Islam practiced by a majority of the world isn't the problem,

It is if you're a female or homosexual defendant in a Sharia court and you expect fair and equal treatment.

So far, all Islamic terrorists attacks in Britain have involved bombs.

Al-queda linked groups a couple of years ago indicated a strategy to kidnap and behead British soldiers.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

And lets watch as the BNP and UKIP numbers at the next election soar..

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I never understood why a murder with decapitation should be any worse than a murder without decapitation. If you're an atheist, there's no afterlife, so you shouldn't care what happens to your body (other than organ donations). If you're a theist, your soul is purportedly elsewhere, so you also shouldn't care what happens to your body.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

According to eye-witness Mrs Loyau-Kennett One of the killers responded to her questions by stating 'I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan they have nothing to do there.”

The killers targeted selectively, a soldier outside Woolwich barracks.

This would make it a revenge attack against the British military rather than a terrorist attack.......

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Get RealMay. 23, 2013 - 10:45AM JST ''To think that a British soldier could be killed on British soil by extremists is shocking.'' Short memory syndrome. This attack was on the same day that a man was charged with the 1982 Hyde Park bomb which killed four soldiers. And a pub frequented by soldiers of Woolwich barracks was bombed in 1974.

Being born in 1990 tends to make you forget the stuff that happened previously.

But being Irish I know stuff that happened from what my family told me. But funnily enough I don't memorize exact dates.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Saddened, shocked, furious but…whether this is terrorism or not, the potential for individuals/groups/politicians etc to make this unimaginable and unforgiveable monstrous act a lot worse is very real. The copycats that might start coming out of the woodwork, encouraged by the attention this has and will naturally continue to garner. Groups of knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers such as the EDL now have the fuel to bolster their ranks and bring chaos to the streets of England, when in truth what is needed is a clear and rational head to consider how to hunt down and rub out those that seek to bring an irrational and bloodthirsty rage to our shores. And the politicians…well, nobody knows what planet they’re on. Those that come to our country and those already here with violence on their minds should know that England is not the place for them and their warped beliefs. They won’t be welcomed. It’s about not sharing the videos or news clips on FB etc of these scum. It’s about giving our military, the entire security apparatus and the people who work tirelessly and selflessly to keep our land and our people safe the resources and space needed to do their jobs. It’s not about burning places of worship. It’s not about molotov cocktails n planks of wood. It’s not about attacking your fellow human because his skin is a different hue or if he doesn’t worship the same garden gnome as you. That’s where the “radicals” and “jihadis” etc fail. They don’t have the intelligence and rationality of mind to realize how ridiculous they are. And that’s where we win….that and passing a bill that allows the police to drop the barstuds out of a helicopter.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

kurisupisu: Exactly Bluescript and it appears that the killing was most certainly a response to the massive military campaigns conducted by the British........

And the Son of Sam killer was most certainly motivated by what his dog told him to do. In his mind.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Back on topic please.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

kurisupisu: According to eye-witness Mrs Loyau-Kennett One of the killers responded to her questions by stating 'I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan they have nothing to do there.”

So is he a typical Muslim?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

There are more than 1 million Muslims living in Britain but it isn't a hotbed of Jihad terrorists. Less than 10 Muslim terrorists have been involved with attacks. The worse being the London 7/7 bombing which was by 4 terrorists.

Compare that with the number of terrorist and bombing attacks by the IRA.

So far, the police have not called this a terrorist attack.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

So is he a typical Muslim?

No, he isn't, or the global murder rate would be pretty high. However, he did cite the Koran and Allah as an influence:

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Which Muslim country: has illegally abducted people from their allies' cities? has outsourced their interrogation to dictatorships? runs a no-man's-land gulag beyond judicial reach?

The beauty of being a Muslim country is that you don't need to outsource or try to cover up your human rights abuses. You can have your gulag right at home.

has a policy of extrajudicial killings?

Most of them.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

'I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan they have nothing to do there.”

What if this guy was just out of boot camp and had not deployed yet? Is he still guilty of killing Muslims? If those killers wanted to make a statement, then they should have gone to the countries that the fighting is going on and done the killing there. Trying to equate the killing of a soldier just going about his way in a non war zone for supposed killings overseas is a cowards way.

Also, I thought that the war on terror was over and that we are not at war with Islam? That's what Obama keeps saying and the other leaders in the UK, and yet these guys didn't get the memo. One of the differeneces between the US and the UK can be seen in the police reaction. It took the police 20 minutes to get there, and from some sources it may be because the regular cops aren't armed, and they had to call in the special police to shoot this guy. In the USA, all cops are armed and will shoot.

If these guys accuse the British for killing Muslims, then where do they stand with what's going on in Syria? That's a case of Muslim vs. Muslim, and from the press reports innocent women and children are getting killed, and the leader of Syria is really not a friend to the USA and Britain, so where is his outrage. Not sure where these guys are from, but I would suspect that in their ancestrial homeland, there are groups fighting each other, and I bet a good majority of the fighting is between Muslim groups.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Anti-Islamist protests flare after British solider butchered near London barracks

Leave it to the British press to try to deflect the real problem. The problem is not that there are Anti-Islamic people, but that the Islamist started it all by killing a person in cold blood on the street. If the anti-Islamist groups would have started attacking Mosque's unprovoked, then that would be a story. But the Islamist groups started this, and now they want to play victim.

If they claim that these guys do not represent Islam, then they need to be the ones out front, denouncing them and if required turning in any cohorts who may have been behind this. Where is their statement condeming the killing?

Mob violence is not a good thing, but I think some of these Muslim groups need to step up and denounce the killings that people are doing in the name of their religion and stop turning a blind eye. If they feel that conditions are that bad in Britian, then they can leave. Same thing that is going on in Sweeden, with mainly Muslim youths rioting in the suburbs about perceived injustices. If they don't like it, they can leave and go back to places where the Muslims are the majority.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

The BBC has just confirmed that the victim was a member of the armed forces, and it is still being treated as a suspected terrorist attack.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

kurisupisu:

" This would make it a revenge attack against the British military rather than a terrorist attack..... "

Well, according to he islamist narrative, yes. That is if you believe that the West is engaged in Crusade against islam and selectively killing muslims in Afghanistan (although what the UK and US are doing in Afghanistan is defending one Shariah regime against another, more radical, Sharia movement.).

So, yes, if you buy into the islamist narrative, you argue exactly that. Which is in fact, what all the jihadist terrorists are doing.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Alphaape.

Read the news lately, the Islamic community already issued a statement.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

zichi:

" There are more than 1 million Muslims living in Britain but it isn't a hotbed of Jihad terrorists "

Maybe, but it is a hotbed of islamization, complete with islamist firebrands like Arnin Choudry preaching jihad, Sharia courts, special privileges for muslim patients in NH hospitals, prison toilets re-modelled islamically correct across the nation.... shall I go on?

And yes, about 50% of the young UK muslims want Sharia to be the law of the land.

If all that is A OK for you, you have a surprise coming.

Murder attacks like this are only the icing on the cake.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Read the news lately, the Islamic community already issued a statement.

I have seen some statements that have been issued from previous events like these. in all of them, they give the blanket comment on how they "deplore the actions" but then if you listen closely they do a turn around and justify the reasoning of why the attack occured, if not the method.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

WilliB

Murder attacks like this are only the icing on the cake. By the way, when is the last time a young Buddhist did that to shouts of "Buddha is great"?

In Burma in reacent attacks and killing of Muslims by Buddhists including Buddhist priests.

4 ( +6 / -3 )

Please do not bombard this thread with so many posts and tone down your anti-Islam rhetoric.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

WilliB

It doesn't matter what we believe, that's what one of the killers said the reason was. Like you were saying to zichi, do you purport to know more than the killer himself?

And if that wasn't the reason what exactly do you think the motivations for this act were?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

WilliB:

" It doesn't matter what we believe, that's what one of the killers said the reason was. Like you were saying to zichi, do you purport to know more than the killer himself? And if that wasn't the reason what exactly do you think the motivations for this act were? "

Yes, what you believe does matters. Because beliefs leads to actions. And I am simply taking the killers at their words. They stated their motivation clearly. Why is it that you and zichi want to double-guess them?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

VIOLENCE and TERROR in the name of RELIGION is absolutely CRAZY !! I dont think any RELIGION says, KILL PEOPLE !! This is so INSANE !!!!!! are they HUMAN ???? its so SCARY !!!!!!

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Zichi... as a former member of HM Royal Navy I'm surprised you aren't more outraged.

When this happened yesterday it made me sick... it's barbaric and utterly, utterly evil. That filth like these can walk the streets of the UK, spouting their rhetoric one day and killing a soldier the next beggars belief.

The police should have slotted these two... had military police been on the scene first they would be dead now, as they should be.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

If they claim that these guys do not represent Islam, then they need to be the ones out front, denouncing them

Many groups have done that in Britin, and CAIR has done it in the U.S.

In Burma in reacent attacks and killing of Muslims by Buddhists including Buddhist priests.

There is much less scriptural and ecclesiastic support for terrorism among Buddhists. Buddhism does not get off scott free, but when was the last time you heard someone invoking the name of Buddha during and act of terrorism or violence? Even if there was scriptural support, Buddhist scripture is not peddled as an inerrant miracle from God. And that's exactly how the Koran is peddled.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

WilliB

Sorry it may not have been clear with all the posts but at 3:17 you replied to kurisupsu that "that's what the Islamist narrative is" so I think it's you that's double guessing them. That's why I said "like you said to zichi, do you purport to know the killer's reasons?" I think what kurispusu said is just the same as what the killer's said.

Again, what do you think their motivations were if not for what they stated themselves?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

oikawa, I believe they believe what they are saying, but they are not rational human beings. I asked if he was a typical Muslim for a reason: Either he is which means any Muslim can snap at any time and kill, or he isn't which means he's not like the rest and is out of touch with everyone/everything else. Personally, I think he was pushed over the edge by radical Islam and my proof is that he just tried to cut someone's head off with a meat cleaver. He's not typical at all, and attaching some kind of logic to his actions just doesn't make sense to me.

Over a billion other Muslims have seen the same evidence that he has and they haven't killed anyone. He is not like the rest and he shouldn't be judged like he's got legitimate reasons to be clearly insane.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

In my heart I don't want to believe its a religious attack, but so far everything show it is indeed looks like one. as a muslim, im sorry for the loss and pray for his soul. when I hear news like this, I'm always saddened by the loss of others and get shocked for the prejudice of the people against Islam and muslims. to tell the truth i don't know which Kur'an that those attackers or other muslim extremists read but the one I read was keep advicing people to: have a peaceful life, don't lie, don't steal, always show respect to your elders and protect the youngs, forgive other people as Allah gave created all of us ( Hz. Muhammed the Prophet forgave the non muslims who caused great pains to him him and killed his dear uncle) And NEVER AND EVER kill another human being as no human has the right to take the life that Allah gave(in Kur' an it say s only Allah can take back the things as He is the one giving everything). Im not an Arab and my country doe s not ruled by shariah. so I don't have much knowledge about stoning people to death or cutting heads. but from what I know those traditions are pre islamic death sentences used around arabic lands at the time.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

I don't have much knowledge about stoning people to death or cutting heads. but from what I know those traditions are pre islamic death sentences used around arabic lands at the time

Yes, pre-Islamic penalties that were codified under Islamic law, along with rules condoning slavery.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Good post by frostthenoob. Thanks for coming and speaking as a normal human being. :thumbsup:

0 ( +0 / -0 )

frostthenoob:

" . to tell the truth i don't know which Kur'an that those attackers or other muslim extremists read "

They are using exactly the same as you. Obviously, you are able to ignore the many suras which call for hatred of and attacks on the unbelievers, and that is to your credit.

Alas, there are plenty of fundamentalist preachers who read the Koran literally, among them the leading scholars of both Sunni and Shiite sects.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

willib/ seriously dude? u do believe everything u say here? did u really read Kur' an? did u search of the life of Hz. Muhammed? did u know he banned slavery as one of the first things of Islam(by saying a man should get on his knees and bow his head only to the will of Allah) and freed thousands of slaves from the non muslims Arabs of the time. did u know that the first one to read Ezan(the call for prayers) was a freed slave? did u know that Hz. Muhammed declared the same free slave as his step son and arranged a marriage between that freed slave and Hz. Muhammed's cousin? did u even cared about these stuff before writing here? sorry pal but I only see prejudice in your comments here. I repeat once again. killing another human being and slavery are forbidden in Islam. though u are right on sth.Kur'an indeed says that if a man tries to kill you or tries to destroy your homeland, then u have right to "DEFEND" yourself. and if u die trying so, ur place will be heaven. but AGAIN it does NOT say anything about killing is right or it does NOT say you can freely kill anyone you want. its the people like Hassan Sabbah that created this effect. people who wanted power and total domination over the minds of mere people interpreted the meanings of surahs in the Kur'an.

sorry for the long post btw. thx for reading.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

There are more than 1 million Muslims living in Britain but it isn't a hotbed of Jihad terrorists

About 1,600 a young British Muslims are under constant surveillance by MI5 and the police, including around-the-clock highly sophisticated eavesdropping (in the assumption that pre-emptive action is better than waiting for terrorism to happen).

If the UK is NOT a hotbed, then this approach is total waste of taxpayer money, eh?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

About 1,600 a young British Muslims are under constant surveillance by MI5 and the police, including around-the-clock highly sophisticated eavesdropping (in the assumption that pre-emptive action is better than waiting for terrorism to happen).

Is this common knowledge in GB? Ever hear of racial profiling?

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

@KariHaruka

You don't understand the amount of pride that we have in our soldiers. We are proud of our boys and girls who serve in the British Armed Forces.

You don't speak for "us".

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@Thunderbird

Zichi... as a former member of HM Royal Navy I'm surprised you aren't more outraged.

*Its a deplorable act of violence regardless of whether the man killed was an army member or not.

*Its unclear until the gov't and police release the details if these two criminals are home grown Islamic terrorists or just two men who decided to vent their hatred and make their own actions.

*If the criminals survive their shootings, when the day for their punishment arrives they'll both receive the maximum life sentences regardless of whether they are terrorists or not. They won't get less or more time by whichever side of the coin they fall on.

*Until the gov't or the police release the details there are many unanswered questions.

@JeffLee

About 1,600 a young British Muslims are under constant surveillance by MI5 and the police, including around-the-clock highly sophisticated eavesdropping (in the assumption that pre-emptive action is better than waiting for terrorism to happen).

that's a very small number compared to the tens of thousands of black guys who are profiled by the police every single day.

I think everyone, but especially the gov't and the politicians need to keep this in perspective. Some of them are already calling for more laws, more access to anyone's emails and what people are doing on the internet.

And BTW, all that "around-the-clock highly sophisticated eavesdropping" did nothing to save the life of this young man.

In the days when the IRA were active on mainland Britain, tens of thousands of Irish people were under constant surveillance, just for being Irish!

6 ( +6 / -1 )

Footage emerged showing one of the men carrying a blood-covered knife ...

Some "Rebels" from " Free Syrian Army"?

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Security was reinforced at all army barracks in London following the incident.

Is it situation SO bad in UK?

Is it now so dangerous to be britan soldier in Britan?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

zichi,

And BTW, all that "around-the-clock highly sophisticated eavesdropping" did nothing to save the life of this young man.

No but it did help catch four men who planned to kidnap and behead a British soldier back in 2008:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jan/29/terrorism.world

3 ( +3 / -0 )

The London Met Police have confirmed the murdered man was a soldier, he also served one tour of duty in Afghanistan. The police haven't released his identity. Soldiers in London have been advised not to wear their uniforms outside of their barracks.

Counter-terrorist officers have search the Lincolnshire home belonging to the father of one of the killers. The police have raided a house in Greenwich which is near to Woolwich and is the home of one of the suspects. The police took away, two sisters in their 30's, an older woman and a teenage boy. The police have also raided a flat in Essex belonging to a sister of one of the killers.

The killer in the videos with blood on his hands and holding a meat cleaver, is thought to be a Michael Adebolajo. Has a child he attended the Primary School near to the killing.

It was his father's home in Lincolnshire which was raided. He was also known to a banned Islamist organisation. Anjem Choudary, the former leader of the group, Al Muhajiroun, said the man converted to Islam in 2003 and was a British born Nigerian but had stopped attending meetings Al Muhajiroun and its successor organisations two years ago.

The second killer is believed to be a British citizen born in Nigeria.

The two suspects “were known to the security services”. Its not thought they belong to a terrorist group, and this is most likely a one-off event.

The media have been criticised for showing so many videos and photos but I suppose they would also quickly hit the internet anyway. With so many mobile phones on the street, criminal events like this one, and the recent one in Boston can become instant spectacles.

4 ( +4 / -1 )

No we are not. For the last 10 years our boys and girls have been doing America's bidding and terrorizing anyone or anything who doesn't follow the US Middle East party line (Isael can do wrong, extra judicial drone killings are OK and democracy is a privillege afforded only to non-muslims).

If that is indeed true than that would make the UK a colony of the US and its not a sovereign nation that can think or do for itself or decline to stand with the US. That is what you ar implying??

Utter nonsense!

Anyway, the only thing I can say to this tragic incident, it is very scary when these things happen on your own soil, I don't have any answers as how to fight homegrown and raised radical Islamists, but I think maybe the government needs to inact stricter laws in dealing with hate crimes and or radical Islam. One thing I do know, you can't kick them out or ban their religion, so I think there needs to be some sort of social outreach to these communities and see if people can live together.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

SuperLib

I wasn't referring to what you'd said but thank you for your reply anyway. I think your argument is fallacious though. It's a strawman argument. Just because they might not have been typical Muslims in that of course not all Muslims go out beheading westerners doesn't mean their underlying rationale for their actions couldn't be shared by a certain number of other Muslims and be the direct inspiration for their actions here. Many Muslims might also feel to whatever extent that the west shouldn't be in Muslim countries but that doesn't necessarily make them have to go out beheading people. The fact could still remain though that that was the reason in this case for the murder. Whether that is the case or not is one matter, and it's quite another to say that that can't be the reason purely because you think they are madmen.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

zichi:

" It was his father's home in Lincolnshire which was raided. He was also known to a banned Islamist organisation. Anjem Choudary, the former leader of the group, Al Muhajiroun, said the man converted to Islam in 2003 "

I am not surprised. In fact. I mentioned Anjem Choudary before; he is one of the most blatant examples of the insanity of UK policy. The guy lives on generous UK welfare and spends his time demanding Shariah for the UK, the end of democracy, and the death for critics of islam.

By the way, your information that his organization is banned is misleading at best. The name "Al Muhajiron" might be banned, but his group keeps re-inventing itself under new names every time one is banned. Last time I looked they were called "islam4UK", but they might have moved on already.

Google him, he is quite outspoken.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

....this is most likely a one-off event.

Just like Boston, just like Canada's Via Rail, 75, 9/11, Madrid train bombing, the underwear bomber, the shoe bomber, etc., etc. Yeah, a "one-off event." LOL. Seems like we face a constant and connected series of of "one-off" events for many years to come.

Its not thought they belong to a terrorist group,

Al-Qaeda isn't a "group." It's a network.

The media have been criticised for showing so many videos and photos

Criticized by whom? Not by me. Maybe by a smug and small group of vested interests who want to control what we see and hear, in the interest of "community relations"?

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Yubaru,

First off, what difference does wearing a T-shirt matter? I don't follow your trend of though how what he may have been wearing matters? And armed or otherwise, what does that matter either?

When the US or UK are fighting over in the middle east they are fighting against armed men that hide among the civilian population. Soldiers in combat wear uniforms to differentiate themselves from the civilian population in times of war in order to minimize the impact on civilians. NATO forces have rules which they are compelled to abide to not target unarmed individuals which are displaying no hostile intent.

Instead of attacking an armed soldier in an actual theater of war they attacked an unarmed soldier going about his daily business having nothing to do with the war.

When a soldier is killed in war the loss of life is terrible but understandable. When in an active war-zone soldiers are assumed to understand the risk to their lives, this soldier was at home and posing no threat to anyone, combatant or not.

Yes, based only on what the article had written and not on any of the following information, it was an indiscriminate act of violence. The point is to spread fear and terror, and that is what terrorists aim for, whether it be targeted against a child or member of the military.

The no NATO nation is targeting, has targeted, or will ever target children or civilians during a military campaign. The levels of collateral damage that result in civilian death are a result of insurgents that hide in heavily populated civilian areas in order to make such collateral damage incredibly difficult to avoid, in response to that western nations have taken unprecedented steps in the field of military reconnaissance to minimize civilian casualties while conducting a war.

What NATO nations do is anything but indiscriminate. They have developed weapons and targeting systems to make civilian deaths as low as possible while the enemy they fight has done everything in their power to inflict as many civilian deaths as possible. If you don't see the difference than you are deliberately skewing facts about established improvements in military science to fit your own preconceived notion about the western involvement in middle eastern conflicts.

Not at all, and while it will sound so very cold and heartless I suppose, what makes this soldiers death any more important or significant than any of the hundreds of thousands of others that have died in the so-called name of God?

Importance is debated by philosophers and theologians. Significance, on the other-hand, is well within my grasp. This was a personal attack on British soil on a British soldier that was conducted by, more than likely, British citizens of Islamic faith. This could be a flash point for incredible anger towards the Islamic community and a deepening in tensions across Europe if other radicalized individuals begin doing the same thing.

Additionally, the significance is that these attacks were unprovoked, at least by any understandable measure and for purely ideological reasons. When the US invaded Afghanistan it was for a very tangible, easily identifiable reason, that that country was housing and protecting individuals that had killed US citizens and intended to kill more in the future.

They are all shocking and all should be as well. Or do you view this soldiers death more meaningful or important than any of the other innocents that die because of terrorists?

I think you lack a fundamental understanding of what terrorism is. You are operating under the impression that it is a result, that any attack which results in widespread fear among the civilian population is an act of terrorism. This is not true as all attacks provoke fear regardless of the target or perpetrators. For example I would not call the bombing of the Cole a terrorist attack, it was against an identifiable military target with a set agenda. Terrorism is about intent, these men intended to cause widespread fear as the primary motivator of their attack. Suicide bombers detonate themselves in order to spread fear.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Well, Zichi is so far in denial its unbelievable. I know there are some good muslims out there because they interpret their religion differently than the rather large number of Islamists that have no problems deceiving gullible PC "progressives" under the convenient Islamic rules of taqiya. In no way could I condone Islam as a peaceful religion, no more than I could confirm all Christians to be peaceful just because Jesus was.

There is a problem with the EDL, and they're sounding quite familiar to another group that eventually gained control of the political field and targeted a specific group of people, and Britain should be quite familiar with their history with that country. The difference here to an extent, is that Islam is not an ethnicity, and you can't really tell a person's religious belief just by the color of their skin.

I'm just going to observe what is going to happen next in the UK. The next 10 years are going to be interesting considering how Islam and Judaism are allowed to have their own court systems....

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Coward attack as always! Good that no woman or child in victims.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

No matter how much we argue about Islamist and Christians; This Is A Dangerous Precedent. A man justified hacking to death another man because of an ideal. An ideal that if not followed, warrants death. That type of idealism on leads one thing and a lot more people are going to start dying when we go down this road.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

isoducky

" No matter how much we argue about Islamist and Christians; This Is A Dangerous Precedent. A man justified hacking to death another man because of an ideal. "

There have been plenty of precedents of this "precedent". Remember Theo Van Gogh? Remember the Danish cartoonists? (OK, they are still alive, but not for the lack of trying.) Even here in japan, remember Professor Igarashi, whose "crime" was to translated the Satanic verses? Speaking of Salman Rushdie, surely you remember him, and Cat Stevens aka Yussuf Islam openly declaring he hoped that someone would do him in.

I though a "precedent" is something, well, unprecedented...

1 ( +4 / -3 )

oikawa: The fact could still remain though that that was the reason in this case for the murder. Whether that is the case or not is one matter, and it's quite another to say that that can't be the reason purely because you think they are madmen.

I'm still skeptical as how much credibility you want to give to the words of someone who is clearly insane. Perhaps it fits your worldview?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

@HonestDictator I don't support the Islamic religion, and in fact, I don't support any religions. I dislike all of them.

I don't believe the more than one million Muslims in the world are all Islamic terrorists. The majority of them are not.

We should at least try to understand why people like these two killers, are raised as Christians and then turn to Islam for solutions to their life problems. I think the causes run deep and its difficult to pin point any one aspect but young blacks in Britain suffer from too much police profiling. They have lower expectations, more long term unemployment, lower quality housing. All that builds up into hate, hate of authority, hate of the establishment. Maybe the radical and extreme ideas of Islam provided an outlet for their hatred?

From the information provided so far it does not seem that the killing was part of a terrorist group. They did attend some meetings of radical Islam groups but it don't seem like they were actual members. It does seem like they acted on their own

On mainland Britain during the 1970's there were 16 major terrorist attacks. 14 by the IRA, one by an anarchist group and one by the Black September Group.

In the 1980's, there were 10 terrorist attacks. 9 by the IRA and 1 by the Animal Rights Militia.

The 1990's was a bad decade with 24 terrorist attacks. 20 by the IRA. 2 against Jewish targets. 1 against a Sikh newspaper and another against blacks and gays.

In the 2000's there have been 11 terrorists attacks. 7 by the IRA and 4 by Islamic extremists.

From 1970 there were 61 terrorist attacks with 50 of them by the IRA, and 4 by Islamic extremists.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

I don't believe the more than one million Muslims in the world are all Islamic terrorists. The majority of them are not.

Zichi, what does it matter that the majority are not. Its like saying that the majority of South African's don't have AIDS, so South Africa doesn't have an AIDS problem.

From the information provided so far it does not seem that the killing was part of a terrorist group. They did attend some meetings of radical Islam groups but it don't seem like they were actual members. It does seem like they acted on their own

So what?

I think the causes run deep and its difficult to pin point any one aspect but young blacks in Britain suffer from too much police profiling

Google Richard Dart. White guy, Islamic convert in prison for planning terrorist attacks. RIchard Reid. You're really saying we should look at police profiling as the cause of this attack? That's bizarre.

On mainland Britain during the 1970's there were 16 major terrorist attacks. 14 by the IRA, one by an anarchist group and one by the Black September Group.

Everyone knows about the IRA. Criticism of Islamic terrorism does not equate with indifference towards the IRA.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

I am miles away of defending these killers. BUT 3 days ago I watch a TV grand reporters program about the drones usage in Pakistan. Really awful, 50 collateral deaths - including children - for one target, while officially not in war. This has resulted in 3,000 deaths for 60 objectives as we speak. Shocking, isn't it?

How do you expect there will be none getting mad about that?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

A 75-year-old Pakistani man was hacked to death in Birmingham on May 2nd. That never made it on to Japan today.

Of course both attacks were heinous, but the response to the Woolwich one has been ridiculous. I've seen people screaming for lynchings, mass deportations, ethnic cleansing.

Stupidity on a massive scale.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

@bigfujiyama: It couldn't be a worse time to be brown/black in UK at the moment, regardless whether you are Muslim,Atheist,Christian,Buddhist,Hindu or Rastafarian, an immigrant or UK national at birth. I myself am a brown Atheist born in the UK, but have faced the brunt of apparently being a "Muslamic Terrorist" or "Paki paedo", when I am not ofcourse being a "Job Stealer". You are totally helpless in this situation. Some non muslim asians have this idea that doing certain things will "spare" them the hatred of a white racist, such as wearing clothing with the Union Jack, going to pubs and drinking a lot, one even joined the racist EDL group. I however wouldn't do something like that for two reasons, 1) It won't work 2) I won't sell my soul.

Social media is absolutely rife with the kind of stuff you mentioned, one could call it almost fanatical, asking for all "pakis" to be burnt alive, etc. Personally, I fear for my life now. I don't know how many "Islamists" are out there who would want to kill me, but for sure there are far more racist whites waiting for any excuse to cause harm to someone like me, ie, not white.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

The people who condemn Islam are also the same people supporting the killing orgies in Iraq and Afghanistan in courtery of USA and NATO. Extremism feed off each other. What these simple minded people on Japan Today do not realize is that extremism, be it war mongering Christian fanatics from USA or some fanatic suicide bomber from the ME is that without each other their life would have less meaning. Their enemies are the best friends. They are both morons.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

I should also point out that these "protests" may claim to be "Anti-Islamist", but I can assure you from personal experience that is simply not the case. I have witnessed these English thugs attack anyone who is brown, regardless whether they are Islamist, Muslim or not.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Open Minded: Really awful, 50 collateral deaths - including children - for one target, while officially not in war. This has resulted in 3,000 deaths for 60 objectives as we speak. Shocking, isn't it? How do you expect there will be none getting mad about that?

People get mad, but not many try to cut off the head of a stranger, then ask people to record a message while the stand in the street with bloody hands. But if you can understand that, so be it.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

They get a sense of pleasure almost by allowing asylum seekers and immigrants into the country I am living in the same country you are referring to? do you know how difficult it is for asylum seekers to come to Japan?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Would you believe it, on the way back from the shops, I was confronted by a bunch of white thugs, shouting "Paki murderer", "Terrorist", and the like. Thankfully the locals (Sikhs) came to my aid. Someone tell me, just what am I supposed to do? As I am mentioned before, I may be brown, but I'm not a muslim. Why is it suddently my fault? Because it's RACISM rather than "ISLAMOPHOBIA" at work. In the eyes of these kind of white thugs, all brown people are muslim, and all muslims are terrorists, simples.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

God created Hell just in case his flawed creation did not love him back... but stupid knows no single religion or belief. Stupid infects religious nuts of all colors and of all races. Now having said that, may street justice prevail!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

When I was a teenager in London 1973-1980, "Paki-bashing" (beating up Pakistanis) was a already a well established pastime for the yob crowd. Just an anecdote, but I remember meeting a real hard nut steel toecap type of yob in pub who claimed he'd deliberately hit a "Paki" with his car. He could have been lying but still, the mentality.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

In the 2000's there have been 11 terrorists attacks. 7 by the IRA and 4 by Islamic extremists.

About 2,200 people have been arrested in Britain under the Terrorism Act since Sept. 11, 2001, and hundreds convicted. Nearly all are Muslim fanatics.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@JeffLee How many Islamic terrorists are in prison?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

JsffLee

About 2,200 people have been arrested in Britain under the Terrorism Act since Sept. 11, 2001, and hundreds convicted. Nearly all are Muslim fanatics.

So what you are saying it that before they started to arrest people there weren't any Islamic terrorist attacks. But since they started arresting people there have been 4 attacks?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

zichi: I think the causes run deep and its difficult to pin point any one aspect but young blacks in Britain suffer from too much police profiling. They have lower expectations, more long term unemployment, lower quality housing. All that builds up into hate, hate of authority, hate of the establishment. Maybe the radical and extreme ideas of Islam provided an outlet for their hatred?

I don't think you can focus on just one country. This is a problem in dozens of countries. It's fair to find a link between how a person starts out and how they end up in radical Islam, but I'm guessing it's bigger than growing up in certain parts of the UK. Young men are turning radical all over the world and we need to find out why.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

You don't understand the amount of pride that we have in our soldiers. We are proud of our boys and girls who serve in the British Armed Forces.

You don't speak for "us".

Maybe not you but he speaks for many, including me, my family, my friends, and my home community of Royal Wootton Bassett. I am not proud of the killing that is an inevitable part of war. But I am proud of the GOOD work the British army does that never hits the news - building roads, repairing bridges both physical and metaphorical, de-mining land, building schools, protecting medical personnel, training local police and countless other good work.

@Shoryuken - I am SO sorry. Please stay safe and try to avoid those thugs. They are no better than the nutjobs spewing extremism. Just know that the vast majority ot Brits with any intellect "get" it. They know there are muslims and muslims, immigrants and immigrants.

@Probie - then you served alongside my Dad, God rest his soul. God bless you.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

But since they started arresting people there have been 4 attacks?

If the hundreds of British Muslims hadn't been rounded up by the British authorities, they would have carried out many, many more attacks in Britain.

Indeed, Zichi, this isn't a British problem, it's a Muslim problem. For instance, scant media coverage has been given to five nights of mob violence now in Stockholm, mainly by Muslim immigrants... and asylum seekers!!! This, in one of the world's most tolerant and generous societies. Most peaceful too, well no longer, eh?

Jeez, if you don't like the place, then go elsewhere, preferably home to a Muslim majority society, where you won't feel so "alienated." (Does saying this make me a racist?)

1 ( +4 / -3 )

JeffLee

There are less than 20 Muslims in prison because of terrorist attacks, out of a Muslim population of nearly 3 million. The 1600 under surveillance are less than 0.05 of that population.

Why did Muslim terrorist attacks only started happening after 2001. Was it because of the Iraq war?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

SuperLib

You don't seem to understand what insanity is. If you think they committed this horrendous act for some other reason then please tell us why they really did it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

okikawa: You don't seem to understand what insanity is. If you think they committed this horrendous act for some other reason then please tell us why they really did it.

Just about every one of these guys has a history of studying under a radical imam or living in an area where they go to a madrass. You don't develop natural thoughts at a place like this. They are designed to radicalize young men and I find it hard to believe you would agree with anything they say, especially their conclusions. You are here to have a discussion, they are there to get young men to kill innocents. That's all they want, and part of the process is feeding them daily outrage so they can hurt strangers.

You're projecting your own opinion onto their actions, and in that instance they seem to make some sense. I'm guessing you agree with what he says in terms of British troops. But in that moment you trick yourself to forget that he's a guy with a meat cleaver after cutting someone up. And personally, I think some people believe that if we were just able to make some slight changes then these people wouldn't exist. I don't agree with that. They kill each other on a daily basis in the Middle East regardless of what the West is doing. If he's really angry about Afghanistan he'd be killing the Taliban who are responsible for exponentially more civilian deaths.

You can tell me that he did it for the reasons he said, but he's insane. I said before that the Son of Sam killed because he thought his dog was telling him too. In his mind that's why he did it, but no one would find that to be a credible. These guys are just as crazy.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Footage emerged showing one of the men carrying a blood-covered knife and meat cleaver and saying to the camera: “We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you.”

Actually, I had a look at the unedited footage. He says "We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone." Why did AFP decide to take out that last bit?

And he goes on talking about British bombs wiping out entire families.

Dear Moderator: How can the above be "off topic"? Although I do not agree with the killer's actions, he made a very clear point that his actions were retaliation for the killings by the British military and that they will stop retaliating when that killing stops. The above AFP article cut out part of the quote (intentionally perhaps), giving the impression that this is just "a Muslim attacking the infidels", as some posters seem to often bring up, which might convince some people that the attacks against Muslims should be increased (get'm over dere so dey don't get us over ere).

-21 ( +2 / -23 )

Maybe not you but he speaks for many, including me, my family, my friends, and my home community of Royal Wootton Bassett. I am not proud of the killing that is an inevitable part of war. But I am proud of the GOOD work the British army does that never hits the news - building roads, repairing bridges both physical and metaphorical, de-mining land, building schools, protecting medical personnel, training local police and countless other good work.

You may be as proud as you like, and I certainly haven't got a problem with that.

At the same time, it is not compulsory to revere our armed forces, so I believe that those who want to, should, and those who don't want to, should not.

It is not for anyone to say what "we" are proud of, especially when reverence in Britain for the military is mixed at best.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

SuperLib

I still think you need to look up what insanity is. Killing people in however barbaric a way does not, unfortunately, necessarily imply insanity. If they did this for the reasons they claim they are based on reality whether or not you agree with the conclusions they came to. The Son of Sam was experiencing auditory hallucinations. It was not REAL. That's a pretty massive fundamental difference between the two situations. They're incomparable.

My world view has nothing to do with it and not what's at stake here. I'm just taking them at their word. You seem to have stopped denying they may actually have thought what they said but have taken it back a step and said the Imans are there everyday preaching hatred and trying to radicalize young men to kill innocents but I have to ask for the 4th time in total, if not for the reasons they claimed in the video, then what? Why are the Imans preaching hatred? What are their reasons and motivations for this and other attacks if not for the commonly spoken grievance of western occupation and killing in the Middle East and Muslim countries, whether that justifies them or not?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@zichi

Your suppositions in this thread have been so hilariously off the mark (ie "wrong"), that I'm surprised you're still here. To whit:

"I think a police investigation will reveal something else than some kind of Islamic Jihad terrorist attack." (Zi) -- Hilarious!!!

"Its probably an inconvenient truth for you when it turns out they weren't the Jihad terrorists you might have hoped they were." (Zi) -- ROTFL!

"The killers were black, probably from a depraved area of Woolwich." (Zi)

-- Michael Whatshisname's background is described as "middle class." His mother was a social worker and he attended college. He is from Essex.

"Its very convenient for the British gov't to call this an Islamic terrorist attack before it even knew the full facts of this tragic event." (Zi) -- LOL!

"There are many fragile communities and Woolwich is also one." (Zi)

-- Woolwich is a lot more resilient than you smugly assume. Its denizens are strongly condemning the killers' actions, and placing flowers and emotional messages at the site.

Doh!

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

@JeffLee

Michael Olumide Adebolajo (27), was born in Lambeth in December 1984 to a Christian family, grew up in Romford. (Romford is part of Eat London). He converted to Islam in 2003 when he was serving time in prison for petty crime. He was using drugs and was drug dealing. Fearing he had become radicalised, his parents moved him away from Romford in 2004 to the well-to-do village of Saxilby, six miles from Lincoln. He studied sociology at Greenwich University.In 2004 and 2005 he was living in Greenwich. He was frequently seen on the streets of Woolwich preaching about Islam. He was known to the security forces since at least 2006 after a protest outside the Old Bailey.

"For the last three weeks he had been walking up and down the main street shouting and preaching. It was an obvious sign there was a mad man walking around," Mayur Patel, a local told leading British daily.

The second suspect is Michael Adebowale, 22, of Greenwich, south-east London. He's a university student, probably at Greenwich. British boen by Nigerian parents. His neighbours of his Greenwich flat haven't seen him for a few months.

So far, there are no reported links with any known terrorist group.

Before the start of the Iraq War in March 2003, there had been no British Islamic terrorist attacks in Britain.

Greenwich (most of Woolwich is part of Greenwich) is also a relatively deprived borough, with 62% of its ‘Lower Super Output Areas’ (LSOAs) in the bottom 30% of the country in the Index of Multiple Deprivation. Wards that include areas of extreme deprivation include Abbey Wood, Eltham West, Glyndon, Greenwich West, with Woolwich Common and Woolwich Riverside in the bottom 5% for London. These wards are concentrated along the waterfront, but with significant concentrations in the south of the borough as well.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

"Why don't you go and do something about it, instead of shouting at people on the street corner?" many people must have said to him.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

He converted to Islam in 2003 when he was serving time in prison for petty crime.

Well there's your problem right there. Prison guards in the UK have repeatedly flagged the problem of extremist gangs on recruitment drives. Run the prisons like they do in Japan and this would stop pretty quick.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

@zichi

Good work Googling or Wiki-ing the latest background info -- much of which contradicts your wild speculation yesterday -- and posting it on this thread. Is this your idea of personal "damage control"? LOL

You could just admit your assumptions were wrong or that you didn't properly grasp the incident, but nahhh....

Next: Stockholm.

-7 ( +0 / -6 )

@JeffLee

and your contribution to the post was?

that's right, "Muslims again, eh? I thought as much."

???

Thank you for the insight.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

@zichi

Ok, I apologize for being correct, and defer to you, whose hunches yesterday were wrong! I guess you missed all the rest of my points, which incidentally have panned out. And I stand by them. Do you stand by your assertions including that the killers were NOT Islamic followers? Here are some of my earlier points yesterday for your reference. Happy reading:

"They apparently shouted "allahu akbar" while trying to cut off his head with a knife. That's wholly consistent with Islamic terrorism," "Beheading non-Muslims with knives is part of the "package," "The prime minister has cancelled a meeting with his French counterpart and the home secretary has met with MI5 over the incident, based on the intelligence gathered so far. Quite a fuss over a random street attack, wouldn't you say? "The vast majority of any large group doesn't go around killing people. It's a ludicrous suggestion and simply wouldn't be practical for the group in question." "Al-queda linked groups a couple of years ago indicated a strategy to kidnap and behead British soldiers." "About 1,600 a young British Muslims are under constant surveillance by MI5 and the police, including around-the-clock highly sophisticated eavesdropping (in the assumption that pre-emptive action is better than waiting for terrorism to happen)." Al-Qaeda isn't a "group." It's a network. "About 2,200 people have been arrested in Britain under the Terrorism Act since Sept. 11, 2001, and hundreds convicted. Nearly all are Muslim fanatics."

0 ( +1 / -1 )

It´s not much about him being Muslim, it´s more a case of a man being disillusioned. The guy who killed 80 people in Norway was a Christian fundamentalist but you don´t hear people criticizing Christianity. Was not Geroge W Bush a born again Christian who told some press that "god told him to do it"? meaning starting 2 useless wars resulting in hundreds of thousands of dead people in the process.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

If they did this for the reasons they claim they are based on reality whether or not you agree with the conclusions they came to.

It's based on their reality, and one that is almost always taught to them, not one that they come up with on their own. If there are "spontaneous" terrorists, I'm guessing they are less than 1%. People don't just wake up and decide to do this because of injustices. This is almost exclusively unique to one group, and within that group it's almost exclusively done by people who have received radical training.

Let me put it to you this way. They also claim to be doing this in the name of Islam (most do). Can I say that it's evidence that Islam is violent....because they said it? At some point credibility has to come into play.

Why are the Imans preaching hatred? What are their reasons and motivations for this and other attacks if not for the commonly spoken grievance of western occupation and killing in the Middle East and Muslim countries

Your focus is too narrow. From Europe to Africa to Asia to The Middle East to North America, there are terrorist attacks that have been planed or carried out by radical Muslims. You would have to have a long list attributing each instance to a grievance, correct?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

It's perfectly obvious...

These two killers have interpreted islam teachings to murder a person.

Forget poverty or deprivation etc...

In their rantings they made it perfectly clear why the killed the poor man.

Let's take as the starting point their rantings.

Let's think about what they themselves said.

NOT what we want to spin on their motives.

Let's first consider what they said.

They have quoted the Koran and talked about muslims etc

Let's take THAT as the starting point to interpret what they have done.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

It is not for anyone to say what "we" are proud of, especially when reverence in Britain for the military is mixed at best.

Indeed. A million people demonstrated in London against the Iraq war, to be ignored by a prime minister seduced by the neocons with their Project for a New American Century.

Wootton Bassett was given the royal prefix as a salve for its wounds. Prominent local firms had exported jobs to Asia (Dyson and Clarks, for example), and the local creamery had closed. To add insult to injury the town, famous for dignified turnouts of townspeople to honour fallen soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, was to lose the air force base (RAF Lyneham) used for their repatriation.

Cue visits by royals (Britain's crisis PR vehicle par excellence), designation of the prefix, and even Prince William's presenting the Sun newspaper's 'Millie' award for Support for the Armed Forces. The townspeople may have lost more jobs and their patriotic raison d'être, but wasn't Britain still proud of 'em?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Send them back to their countries of origin if they claim to have one. If not, ask those extremist countries to receive them under "religious" exile. There is nothing worse than a religion trying to force conversion by force.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

OMG SO MUCH HATE.... I am sorry, it's a good thing I am not in charge of immigrations anywhere. I would not be letting possible enemies into my country. I would be so grateful for a chance to live in one of these developed countries for a better shot at life, I probably would not be. Yet some people are allowed in and then turn on the folks who stretched a helping hand. I am praying for a change, murder cannot be the answer for everything...

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Although I do not agree with the killer's actions

Why is it then that the rest of your post seems to be justifying the killer's actions?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

This article is not factual. The two Islamist terrorists who carried out this atrocity were wielding knives and a Meat Cleaver, and they drove their car into the soldier first, then proceeded to hack him to death, and trid to behead him, while shouting Allah Akhbar. They new exactly what they were doing, and they hung around in the hope they would die as jihadist "martyrs" and thus go to their Islamic "paradise" and get their 70 virgins. London today is just 40% White. British people refer to London now as Londonistan. This is because of unfettered immigration over many years by successive British governments, resulting in a population increasse of over 5 million in just a few years. Britain is a multicultural society, and for an atrocity like this to happen on the streets of the Capital City of the UK may lead to the rise of racism and racial attacks. The British Government has tried unsuccessfully to deport radical Islamic Preachers of hate, but their hands are tied because of the EU. These radical Islamic preachers of hate continue to radicalise young men like the ones who carried out this act of depravity. The one who spoke to the cameras with blood on his hands after the attack actually comes from a Christian parents, but converted to Islam a few years ago, according to BBC News reports. He was subsequently radicalised by the preachers of hate. Many years ago, a right wing Conservative MP said that if immigration in Britian was not controlled, there would be "rivers of blood" on the streets. He was condemned at the time, and is long gone, but his words are currently haunting the streets of London.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

London today is just 40% White. British people refer to London now as Londonistan

1) The 2011 census showed that London was 45% "white British". There are many white non-British, mainly immigrants from other EU countries. By far the majority of the capital is white.

2) No British person refers to London as "Londonistan". It is sometimes a term used in newspapers to point to the popularity of London as a home for Muslims, particularly those with an extremist agenda.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

From the BBC, according to a childhood friend MI5 asked Adebolajo if he wanted to work for them about six months before the killing. There might be more to this story ...

-16 ( +2 / -18 )

SuperLib

I'm not sure what you're trying to say tbh. I'm not trying to deny that what they said might be wrong, but you're not stating what the alternative might be. That's what I want to hear.

You seem to be agreeing that what they said might be their personal reality, but not actually true. Fair enough, but what is the truth then? If perceived western action towards Islamic countries and people is not the actual reason for all the Islamic attacks on Western targets that have been occurring around the world for the last 20 years or so, then what is the actual motivation for it?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

a right wing Conservative MP said that if immigration in Britian was not controlled, there would be "rivers of blood" on the streets

..he (Enoch Powell) was promptly sacked from his position in the Conservative Party's Shadow Cabinet, and offered a candidacy with the National Front. Nice.

Londonistan

Lived in London for 16 years without hearing this term. Perhaps it's from the NF, British National Party or the English Defence League?

Try befriending a Pakistani or African. Have family dinner with them in their homes. You'll find them very welcoming, generous hosts and great conversationalists. Go on, surprise yourself.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Try befriending a Pakistani or African. Have family dinner with them in their homes. You'll find them very welcoming, generous hosts and great conversationalists. Go on, surprise yourself.

This is very sound advice. Put as a rhetorical question, why would one expect people to defend a system that rejects them and/or holds them in suspicion and contempt? The cycle gets broken on both sides when advice like yours is acted upon.

Case in point: the recent terrorist plot in Canada to attack a train line. It was members of the Muslim community who alerted authorities to the plotters.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I grew up in Amsterdam then later moved to Oslo. Both countries are multi cultural. About 30% of my highschool classmates were from a non ethnic European background but having been born and raised in Europe , they were Europeans. It never bothered me or anyone I knew of at school. THere was no divide as far as I could see between the various ethnicities. It really was a non issue . Despite what some of these xenophobes and islmophobes want others to believe, the majority of Europeans don´t have a problem with immigrants. And visa versa.

Everyday, someone is getting killed in every major city in USA or Europe. Especially in USA. Why is that not news? Or for that matter, almost everyday someone is being stabbed to death in Japan by some random crazy person or some stressed out parent killing their children.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

As far as extremist ideologies are concerned. They come in various shapes and colors. Japan has had it´s crazy left wing extremism which among other things resulted in the massacre at Tel Aviv airport. Norway had a right winged Christian fundamentalist sicko killing 80 people. The American government with it´s history of orchestrating blood baths and terrorism is an extremely extreme government. Need to see things in a bigger perspective to understand what is going on. There is Muslim extremism but it is not as if that is the only extremist ideology in society. Despite this homicide in UK compare the overall numbers of homicide in UK to for instance USA, Mexico, Brazil and then you can start to realize that UK overall isnt`t such an extreme place after all.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

You don't understand the amount of pride that we have in our soldiers. We are proud of our boys and girls who serve in the British Armed Forces.

When British Armed Forces go around in places like Iraq, Afghanistan people argue a place where they never should have been in the first place, this could trigger some mentally unstable man to go overboard as it did.

I am sure even more people would be proud of British Armed Forces if they did not travel half away around the world and bomb the crap out of one of the poorest countries on this planet just to kiss Uncle Sam´s greasy fat butt. Could have stayed home instead.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

[Yawn] I remember when Russian Armed Forces fought muslim radical terrorists in Chechnya, british media sources often called those terrorists as "freedom fighters". No less, no more. FREEDOM FIGHTERS. Furthermore, Great Britain provided a safe harbour for Akhmed Zakayev, one of notorious leaders of chechen rebells and terrorists. He escaped to british soil.. The court of London refused of extradition under request of Russian side. Other his "collegues" were exterminated by Russian Special Forces. So, GB praised murderers and terrorists and now muslim terrorists began to kill your own people, servicemen on streets, at daytime. No offence, but you have got what you deserved.

Welcome to reality, mr Anderson (C) Without western double standards.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I wonder why there are so many folks living their comfortable lives in liberal, materialistic, godless, westernized nations who want to defend and excuse the extremism in Islam. I wonder if such people have ever bothered to read the scriptures religious zealots hold dear. I kind of doubt it since such folks can usually be found prattling on dismissively about "fairy tales" and the "big spaghetti monster in the sky". Its too bad they don't read the books because if they did, they would know that the scriptures of Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all bloodthirsty documents full of calls to savage and destroy the infidels and non-believers in the service of "God". None of them are "religions of peace" and only someone who has not read the books would even try to pretend that they are.

Christianity has become so watered down by virtue of its constant contact with the above mentioned hedonistic, materialistic, liberal western societies, that what exists today is but a pale imitation of what the scriptures actually say. Islam on the other hand has millions of devotees who live in patriarchal, conservative, poor societies where there are few if any influences to mitigate the words of the book. Christianity has modernized and adapted itself to survive in the modern world. Islam has not, and until it does such incidents will continue. I just wish liberals would stop pretending that its the west which has to change itself in order to accommodate the line of thinking espoused in Islam. Foul up your own country with hateful practices of religious extremism if you must, but when you immigrate to a place which is about a 1000 years ahead of that line of thinking, either step in line or gtfo.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

oikawa: I'm not sure what you're trying to say tbh

Three things. First of all, I think your focus is too narrow. If these attacks were only happening in countries that "bomb Muslims" then you'd have a case. But we're seeing it around the world in all kinds of different situations, vast majority being Muslim on Muslim violence. That means you need to make a case for each situation, or start to think about the fact that they are on the offensive, not some reactionary entity.

Secondly, these people almost always study under the teaching of a radical member. They don't decide to be terrorists on their own, they are trained to be. They don't come to the conclusion that killing is OK because of grievances around the world, someone tells them to do it. It's not some natural conclusion they arrive at on their own.

Finally, I think it's fair to look at the credibility of their statements. When someone's actions are so detached from reality I don't see why you put so much stock into their own stated reasoning. Like I said before, these men claim they did it in the name of Islam. Can I go around and say that this is the face of Islam because they said it was? I don't do that and I don't care that they claim it is. They have no credibility.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

hidingout:

" I wonder why there are so many folks living their comfortable lives in liberal, materialistic, godless, westernized nations who want to defend and excuse the extremism in Islam. I wonder if such people have ever bothered to read the scriptures religious zealots hold dear. "

It is a pretty safe bet that they have not. And neither have they read up on the history of the religions in question, and on the stance of its current leaders. I wonder how many of the are aware that the Muslim Brotherhood (which Western governments now laud as a moderate force) is calling the destruction of Western societies from within.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

avigator:

" Send them back to their countries of origin if they claim to have one. I "

Alas, that is no solution, because an increasing number of virulent islamists are native born and have native passports. Next idea...

1 ( +3 / -2 )

From the BBC, according to a childhood friend MI5 asked Adebolajo if he wanted to work for them about six months before the killing. There might be more to this story ...

Apparently, this friend was arrested immediately after the BBC interview. Hmmm

Secondly, these people almost always study under the teaching of a radical member. They don't decide to be terrorists on their own, they are trained to be.

Yes, they are taught by radicals and/or by a member of an intelligence agency.

They don't come to the conclusion that killing is OK because of grievances around the world, someone tells them to do it. It's not some natural conclusion they arrive at on their own.

Are you referring to Adebolajo or the western military?

Finally, I think it's fair to look at the credibility of their statements. When someone's actions are so detached from reality I don't see why you put so much stock into their own stated reasoning.

The massive innocent civilian casualties, killed by western military forces, is well documented.

-25 ( +1 / -26 )

Cute, Bluescript. Useless, but cute.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

SuperLib

we're seeing it around the world

what is "it"?

they are on the offensive

who is on the offensive? and an offensive with what aim?

It's not some natural conclusion they arrive at on their own.

I don't know how you can say that. Everyone has free-will. Otherwise you could say nobody has arrived at any conclusions on their own as we have all been taught at some point. They could have rejected the teachings of violence.

detached from reality

They're not detached from reality. Just because you or I don't agree with the way someone sees something or may disagree with the conclusion doesn't mean their view is not based on reality. Lots of people think there is western aggression in the middle east and Africa, they're no different from millions of people in that respect. They just come to very extreme conclusions in terms of how to react.

Can I go around and say that this is the face of Islam because they said it was? I don't do that and I don't care that they claim it is.

I don't know why you're so worried about this point. They are as you said "extremists", not the "face". They are but one part of it and a very minor one, irrelevant really if it weren't for the violence they perpetrate. Again I'm not really sure what you're point is here. Do you think I'm saying they are a good representation of Islam? And they didn't do it "in the name of Islam". What does that mean? They did it according to them simply for revenge for attacks on Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq. It's pretty simple. You attack some members of a group and some other of the members may attack you.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Keep up the god work Superlib. Please keep us informed about the Muslim Watch. Go and live in Europe for a while and talk with "Muslims" instead of getting all your info through the internet, TV and media. The threat is not as great you wish it was. It takes an extremist to know one.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

what is "it"?

Radical Muslims attacking.

who is on the offensive? and an offensive with what aim?

Radical Muslims. Depends on the situation. Most are trying to set up a hardline Muslim state in the areas in which they live. Others are being radicalized to kill innocents.

I don't know how you can say that. Everyone has free-will. Otherwise you could say nobody has arrived at any conclusions on their own as we have all been taught at some point. They could have rejected the teachings of violence.

You are avoiding the point that radical Muslims train others to kill innocents. You don't seem to want to admit that there is a structure for this, instead trying to tell me that injustice on it's own is motivating people to take action. If it were a natural conclusion then they wouldn't need to train others to kill. And you should see who they are training, sometimes disfigured women and mentally slow men in the case of the Palestinian militants.

They're not detached from reality. Just because you or I don't agree with the way someone sees something

Then no one is ever wrong. Apparently we can't even speak out against slave owners since it's just the way they saw the world.

Lots of people think there is western aggression in the middle east and Africa, they're no different from millions of people in that respect. They just come to very extreme conclusions in terms of how to react.

Now we're getting somewhere. Very extreme conclusions. But again you refuse to look at any evidence outside of places where the West is heavily involved.

Again I'm not really sure what you're point is here. Do you think I'm saying they are a good representation of Islam?

Again, you're intentionally missing my point and feigning ignorance. By your logic if they say they are part of Islam then they are. Does that mean we can include their actions as evidence that Islam isn't a peaceful religion?

They did it according to them simply for revenge for attacks on Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq. It's pretty simple. You attack some members of a group and some other of the members may attack you.

Once again, I'm going to ask you to explain Muslim attacks in other parts of the world. Will it be a very long list of perfectly justifiable grievances? And how do you explain that a vast majority of those killed are other Muslims? You're intentionally keeping your focus so narrow in order to ignore other evidence.

Look, you and I probably agree on quite a few things. I think part of the solution is education, economic empowerment, and building bridges between the cultures. Another part will be to include some analysis of our actions and how they affect the situation in a negative way. I'm not trying to eliminate any of that. I just take exception when someone tries to attach logic to inhumane actions. I think that hurts the situation overall.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Keep up the god work Superlib. Please keep us informed about the Muslim Watch. Go and live in Europe for a while and talk with "Muslims" instead of getting all your info through the internet, TV and media. The threat is not as great you wish it was. It takes an extremist to know one.

You're too sensitive. Check my posts and see how many times I've said these people aren't indicative of real Muslims. All of my comments focus on extremists only, and I support Obama's new approach to the situation.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Rather unsurprisingly the backlash is well an truly under way. I've been called a "Paki Terrorist" numerous times and my friend has been beaten up by white racist thugs. Before you can say "you deserve it for being a muslim", let me point out a) I'm not a muslim b) I'm not a PAKIstani either (not that I could justify an attack against me if either of the two were correct). There's been plenty of white folk who have come out with the line "why don't the moderate muslims come out and condemn this" etc etc. Well we HAVE actually heard condemnation of this incident by "moderate muslims", perhaps it's time moderate white people came out and condemned the racist attacks by white people like those of the EDL? Or are the rules different?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

And what was that OECD survey talking about saying Brits are the 10th happiest. Clearly not.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

These extremists share more in common than differences. Just a bunch of misguided stupid people. Whether white or not. The brutal murder of the soldier was meant to shock and create a reaction. By backlashing the people who orchestrated the murder they have achieved their goal. They want polarization of society. It´s one man and not an entire religion or an entire ethnicity.

It´s kind of hypocritical too. Harry the Prince goes on TV and says he has killed Taliban fighters and people think that is heroic. Then when someone who is working for an organization which openly states that they kill people in a foreign country people go crazy.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

It is time for the world to put its foot down and stop supporting radical arab propaganda in all of its forms. They can join the world and change ttheir culture of abuse of women and children, rabid hatred for anyone who is NOT an arab and their aggressive and angry violence or they will see themselves increasingly as the enemy of all clear and right thinking people of any country. They have had more than their chance to make this change. I dont see it happening and am glad people may be waking up to the danger. Japan has a very good policy about such things, they do NOT allow the Arab crazy culture stuff to happen in Japan and I am very proud of them for that courage.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Check my posts and see how many times I've said these people aren't indicative of real Muslims. All of my comments focus on extremists only, and I support Obama's new approach to the situation.

My point is that you are an extremist. When a terrorist kills an innocent person he kills the person in cold blood. When USA kills someone it is an accident. No one really buys this lie unless you are a gullible nationalist Especially as US seem to be killing innocent civilians everyday. It becomes hypocritical of some American trigger happy war mongering extremist to label people as terrorists and extremists while supporting terror and extremism carried out by their government.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

I'm a practicing Muslim and I condemn this attack. Apparently, what these attackers did were against Islamic teaching, whether they are muslims or not. It saddens me that every time a muslim commits a crime, it will be associated with Islam, without investigating the root cause. I mean, these terrorists will be called jihadist, islamic terrorist, islamic fundamentalists etc, but you rarely hear something like christian terrorists, buddhist terrorists etc. And some people are using incidents like this to justify their hatred towards muslims.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

If you say the book then that makes equally almost all christians not christian, for example, and I would assume a large majority of follows of all religion to "not really be religion xxxxxx"

Islam defines itself in this way.

Do you believe there's only one God?

Do you believe Muhammad was the last prophet?

Do you believe the Koran is the infallible, miraculous word of a God?

If you answer "yes" to all three questions, congratulations, you're a religious Muslim. If you answer "no" to any of these questions you're not a Muslim, or you're a cultural (not religious) Muslim. The Koran is central to the religion.

Here's the list for Christians:

Do you believe Jesus is the son of God?

Congratulations. You're a Christian. The Bible is important but not central to the religion.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

ultradarkmelvin: My point is that you are an extremist. When a terrorist kills an innocent person he kills the person in cold blood. When USA kills someone it is an accident. No one really buys this lie unless you are a gullible nationalist Especially as US seem to be killing innocent civilians everyday. It becomes hypocritical of some American trigger happy war mongering extremist to label people as terrorists and extremists while supporting terror and extremism carried out by their government.

I guess? I haven't given my opinion about collateral damage in US strikes since it's not part of this article. If you are obsessed about it then so be it, but you don't need to project your extremism onto comments that I've never made. It's a bit creepy....

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Western Europe is currently being deliberately popultaed by Islamist immigrants. As the numbers grow, usually when they reach around 12% of the populations, they start agitating for their own Shariah Law system to be introduced and the more extreme elements become very vocal about their attitude to "kaffirs" and "infidels" or people who do not believe in the Islamic religion. This sometimes leads to extreme violence, as in this case in London with the beheading of Lee Riggs, the annual rioting on the streets of Paris, and the recent week-long rioting in Stockholm. Many of the caucasian natives of these countries are beginning to feel threatened, and for good reason. There are areas of the UK which have become "no go" areas for white people. Even in President Obama's home ground of Dearborn, Michigan, a large part of that city has almost become a no-go area for Christians. What are we to say in repsonse to all of this? People are being attacked in the streets of some of these places by Muslim extremists, for no other reason other than the fact they ar percieved to be "infidels" who deserve punishment. I have zmuslim friends, and I know that all Muslims are not bad people, but the fanatics have given their religion/ideology a very bad name in recent years. The mass media largely ignore the daily violence and growing problems, and as a UK citizen, Iremember the words of a famous politician decades ago, whn he predicted that unless immigration was curtailed, the streets of Britain would have "rivers of blood" flowing in them. I hope mot, but recent events make that seem more, rather than less likely.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

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