Brutal CIA questioning didn't work, Senate report says

If 'enhanced interrogation' actually did produce results, would it justify doing it?

Let's call it what it was: torture. The supposed leader of the free world, founded on the spirit of enlightenment, tortured those it deemed unworthy of due process or the protections of international treaties on human rights and on the treatment of POWs.

Those who set up these practices, as well as those who condoned them, would surely be outraged if American military personnel were subjected to this torture. After all, after WWII the allied powers convicted a number of Japanese for their use of water boarding.

Torture is abhorrent and damaging to the very fabric of what the United States is supposed to be (and claims it is). And torture only encourages future terrorist acts against countries that practice it.

Brutal CIA questioning didn't work

What a shock!

plasticmonkey:

" Let's call it what it was: torture. "

Reality check: When Saddams police in the original Abu Greib put political prisoners into industrial shredders, with the choice: head first, or or feet first. When Al Quada operators use pliers to pull off body parts, that is torture. That our societies now call unpleasant treatment that leaves no physical damage "torture" simply shows how decadent our societies have become. No wonder that ISIS is laughing at us. For the record, I am not not advocating harsh interrogation methods. I just wish people would keep some perspective and not immediately jump to the strongest term possible. Hysterics like that make a sensible communication impossible.

As for this particular report, that its release is obvious politics does need to be mentioned. As usual, domestic US politics take precedence, long term damaging consequences be damned.

Well, it is clear which party is the party of constitutionality. I used to be wholly against the idea of torture, but now I think we need to keep the rectal rehydration available for al-Baghdadi.

@ WilliB: Good points. What I find amazing is that DiFi who was on the Senate panel at the time and knew of all the goings on now is clutching her pearls and falling on the fainting couch. They all knew what was going on at the time, and all approved of it. Now that they are losing their political power, they throw this out there in order to make the other side deal with it and look like a bunch of torturers.

Interesting, under Bush we used a few rough measures to get info. Under Obama, no questioning just a drone strike and they are gone.

WillB

keep some perspective and not immediately jump to the strongest term possible.

It's torture. Perhaps not of the worst imaginable, but torture nonetheless. From the WaPo:

slamming Zubaida against walls, stuffing him into a coffin-size box and waterboarding him until he coughed, vomited and had 'involuntary spasms of the torso and extremities.'

The treatment continued for 17 days. At one point, the waterboarding left Zubaida 'completely unresponsive, with bubbles rising through his open, full mouth.'

No wonder that ISIS is laughing at us.

Do you have evidence for that?

Reality check: When Saddams police in the original Abu Greib put political prisoners into industrial shredders, with the choice: head first, or or feet first.

Thanks for the Fox News rationalization. Two wrongs do actually make a right.

Hysterics like that make a sensible communication impossible.

Actually spin, doublespeak and the ever-closing ranks of the military industrial complex make sensible communication impossible. The rest of the world is beyond incredulous at the audacity of those who claim the moral high ground.

As usual, domestic US politics take precedence

Cognitive dissonance: domestic US politics is just catching up with everyone else.

make the other side deal with it and look like a bunch of torturers.

Look like?

Under Obama, no questioning just a drone strike and they are gone.

Jealous the dems didn't elect the village idiot?

Dems wrap a Xmas gift for Islamic extremists and those who want to destroy America. Another bad Santa acts by Dems.

Hard questioning is fine but not extreme hard questioning

After 9/11, we found an interesting fact: The NSA, CIA, and DoD make the 4th branch of the US Government. They have life forms of their own.

Sounds like some folks tortured some folks. Are any folks going to prison?

President George W. Bush approved the program

How about this folk?

Truth, Justice and the American Way.... I doubt the original superman comic would be leading with this line these days - these notions are simply a fantasy in America nowadays - just like a comic superhero

President George W. Bush approved the program

Yes he did, and DiFi and the others who were on the Senate Intelligence committee were briefed while it was going on? Why didn't they blow the whistle then? Follow the money and follow the power. DiFi and Pelosi will be out of the committees come Jan, and her abilitiy (along with Pelosi) will lose a bit of power and influence and they are practicing a bit of a "scorched earth policy." Why didn't they have any CIA people explain or rebut?

Some say here that ISIS is laughing, yes they are. They (ISIS) kills women and children, and innoncents and make them convert after beating them, and will execute you on tape, and yet they laugh at us just by dunking people in water and depriving them of sleep. Sure they are laughing at how silly we have become.

I am not advocating the whole scale of rounding up of people and beating them for information, but I am saying if people are caught doing harm to America and her interests.

The CIA had approval and were briefing Congress all along the way.

@nostromo At the time the superman comic came out the US was killing black people in the south with impunity, was about to round up all the Japanese during WW2, and the media or congress didn't ask questions about torture. The situation has improved considerably so you can still enjoy your beloved American comics.

For a different view on this politically motivated report, see the response by the concerned party:

http://ciasavedlives.com/

Truth, Justice and the American Way.... I doubt the original superman comic would be leading with this line these days - these notions are simply a fantasy in America nowadays - just like a comic superhero.

Nostromo -- actually, the release of this report is the strongest possible confirmation that "truth and Justice" are still the American way. Think about it.

Too bad there isn't a certain church somewhere in the US determined to enshrine the spirits of these fine patriotic heroes in the future, you know, one that elected officials will be able to visit without violating the separation between church and state, in a strictly personal capacity.

I mean, that'd be funny, wouldn't it? Meanwhile, some apologists for torture will continue to point out the excesses of militarists in the distant past over there.

Not sure which is more hilarious, the US gov't preaching human rights to tyrants around the world, or Obama getting a pre-emptive Nobel, only to prove his war-criminal street cred by drone bombing not merely innocent civilians but even American citizens.

What this really shows is how barbaric humans can be, regardless of which agency, government, or religious group conducts such heinous acts. It's a symptom of the worst illness: Statism.

It's interesting that Feinstein would bring out these reports right before the Congress Holiday recess and also before the Dems stepping down and the Republican congress taking over. Out of more than likely 39 people that were tortured ( if you want to call it that) 3 it was a known fact that these interrogations tactics were used extensively most noticeably on Khalid Sheikh Muhammad it led to the person of the person to the mail carrier that led to OBL.

Now it's funny to me how the Obama and the Dems want to take credit for getting OBL, but they don't want to take credit for how they got the Intel and that's from enhanced interrogation techniques.

Again, the Dems think for some bizarre macabre reason that somehow in their twisted logic that this revelation will put them back in graces of the people and they will in someway be vindicated the people will love them and will take back Congress???

Not to mention, once again, the Dems are putting a lot of people's lives on the line and that are out in the field and for what? Political gain? It didn't help hem in the past and it's not going to help them now. Good on the CIA. I supported it then and I support it now and all of you are delusional if you think that Obama is NOT aware or doesn't approve of enhanced interrogation techniques. Feinstein and the Dems know what's going on, they turned a blind eye then and now out a sense of moral obligation they feel the need to present the findings? Give me a break

The treatment continued for 17 days. At one point, the waterboarding left Zubaida 'completely unresponsive, with bubbles rising through his open, full mouth.' slamming Zubaida against walls, stuffing him into a coffin-size box and waterboarding him until he coughed, vomited and had 'involuntary spasms of the torso and extremities.'

Oh, my heart really bleeds for this scum! Good! I'm glad they did it and I'm glad they saved lives. I don't have a problem with the CIA doing whatever it is to thwart ANY terror attack that might be coming our way. I hope they continue to never let up and each time we have to deal with these radical terrorists!

No wonder that ISIS is laughing at us.

So do we each time we bomb the bejeezus out of their leaders.

bass4funk: Again, the Dems think for some bizarre macabre reason that somehow in their twisted logic that this revelation will put them back in graces of the people and they will in someway be vindicated the people will love them and will take back Congress???

Not their first trip to the rodeo, they managed to wiggle out of responsibility for losing an ambassador + guards and for dozens of polio vaccination health workers assassinated in Afghanistan so if NY Times is fine with it how do you imagine Dems will get stuck with fallout from this?

It is OK because it is done by the U.S. for justice. They killed more than 3000 people in 911. 3000! Beheadings are not OK because they are done not by the U.S..Those who did that have to die. Even if the U.S. killed more than 10000 people in mideast, that kind of brutal acts are not OK. It's obvious, period.

Sooo... the US made public something that the entire world already knew?....

..."Land of the Free" my hiney....

..."Land of the Free" my hiney....

We are FREE. Why do you think we have thousands of people breaking every law trying to get in.

Not sure which is more hilarious, the US gov't preaching human rights to tyrants around the world, or Obama getting a pre-emptive Nobel, only to prove his war-criminal street cred by drone bombing not merely innocent civilians but even American citizens.

That's easy: you doing the tyrants work for them with your false equivalency is the most hilarious.

@bass4funk

I think in your own reply lays yet another reason why I state that...

Nostromo -- actually, the release of this report is the strongest possible confirmation that "truth and Justice" are still the American way. Think about it.

Has anybody and will anybody be tried or prosecuted as a result of this report?... I don't think so.... not sure how that can be described as Justice

I think in your own reply lays yet another reason why I state that...

Depending on your point of view, in that sense, it's a good thing then.

Out of more than likely 39 people that were tortured

So the other hundred or so subject to extraordinary rendition were treated to mint tea and baklava?

I don't have a problem with the CIA doing whatever it is to thwart ANY terror attack that might be coming our way. I hope they continue to never let up and each time we have to deal with these radical terrorists!

Including letting a resource die of hypothermia on a concrete floor. A bit wasteful, no?

@nostromo We don't launch criminal charges against a previous administration because that would interfere with the democracy. You should be encouraging Australia to take some of these guys from Guantanamo so it can be shut down, but I won't get my hopes up.

@nostromo We don't launch criminal charges against a previous administration because that would interfere with the democracy. You should be encouraging Australia to take some of these guys from Guantanamo so it can be shut down, but I won't get my hopes up.

It's torture. Perhaps not of the worst imaginable, but torture nonetheless.

What Willi B is saying is that you support the terrorists' right to torture and not the U.S. Which side are you on?

If this was against an identified nation, and these were legit soldiers taken as POW's then we would have a problem. But these guys were terrorists, belonging to different states that the USA was not in a Declared war according to the Geneva conventions. So, in my opinion, this is what you get when you decide to live a lifestyle like this. If this was how persons who were accused of committing a crime in the USA and were US citizens protected under the US Constitiution, then I would have a problem. Even though criminals can beat their cases and law enforcement can't use these tactics, that's how our system works.

So if these were American citizens, I would have concerns. But for those who are out to try to harm the US, I saw they got what they deserved. Make no mistake, ask those people who have been beheaded on videos did they have a chance for "due process." And don't give me that tired old tripe about "US Imperialism" when groups like ISIS are doing worse things to people who don't suscribe to their brand of Islam and the US is nowhere in that fight.

Why did they release it now? They lost at the polls, and she will probably be thrown out of the committee, and the Dems and others are basically doing a "slash and burn" on their way out to make sure that the GOP and whoever follows will have a very hard time trying to get things accomplished.

bass -

39 people that were tortured ( if you want to call it that)

Yes bass, I think that's the point of the report, they call it that because it was that. You only think it's not that because it isn't you or your loved ones on the receiving end. If American forces fighting to preserve your freedums were treated in this manner in an attempt perhaps to stop or avenge drone strikes, you would be spitting fire demanding retribution and calling people barbarians.

WilliB -

That our societies now call unpleasant treatment that leaves no physical damage "torture" simply shows how decadent our societies have become.

Leaves no physical damage?

From the Guardian report on the report -

Detainees were forced to stand on broken limbs for hours

Prisoners were subjected to "rectal feeding" without medical necessity. Rectal exams were conducted with "excessive force". The report highlights one prisoner later diagnosed with anal fissures, chronic hemorrhoids and "symptomatic rectal prolapse"

One prisoner died of hypothermia brought on in part by being forced to sit on a bare concrete floor without pants.

Sounds pretty physical and damaging to me, especially the dead bit.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/cia-torture-report-worst-findings-waterboard-rectal

AlphaApe -

I am saying if people are caught doing harm to America and her interests.

...it's OK to do anything to anyone in return? From the report - at least 26 were wrongfully held and did not meet the detention standard in the September 2001 Memorandum of Notification (MON). These included an "intellectually challenged" man whose CIA detention was used solely as a leverage to get a family member to provide information, two individuals who were intelligence sources for foreign liaison services and were former CIA sources, and two individuals whom the CIA assessed to be connected to al-Qa'ida based solely on information fabricated by a CIA detainee subjected to the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques....CIA records provide insufficient information to justify the detention of many other detainees.

so...assuming the US is the World Police, if you might have some info about some potential crime, it would be OK for the police to throw Mrs AlphaApe or a few Junior AlphaApes into prison, and make them sit without pants on a concrete floor in an unheated room until either you coughed (making it up if you had to) or they died?

The CIA had approval and were briefing Congress all along the way.

Again, from the report - The CIA provided extensive amounts of inaccurate and incomplete information related to the operation and effectiveness of the CIA's Detention and Interrogation Program to the White House, the National Security Council principals, and their staffs. This prevented an accurate ands complete understanding of the program by Executive Branch officials, thereby impeding oversight and decision-making.

“That's easy: you doing the tyrants work for them with your false equivalency is the most hilarious.”

How about 'you’re on the side of the evildoers' or 'you’re with us or against us'? Any more from the greatest hits from the Bush-Cheney era of proto-fascism? Feel free to consult Ann Coulter. It’s always amusing that authoritarian followers are so deeply concerned about tyrants far away but never those right in their own backyards.

If it’s treason to oppose my government when it does evil, then call me a traitor. Any such accusations are testament that I’m doing something right.

@ cleo: No the US is not the World's police, and no it would not be nice for my family to be thrown in jail for some supposed crime. However, stating your case, that does happen in Japan, where you can be held for up to 23 days without knowing what your charges are.

But we are not talking about crimes but acts of terror and war. If some were caught up then that is a bad thing. But what about those people who had not choice in 9/11 and either had to burn with the World Trade or just jump? What about those people in Syria and Western Iraq who are not Sunni (or Shia) and have to be subject to beheadings and all of the other things that they put them through.

How about this cleo, since you asked if I would be happy if the "Ape clan" were whisked away. What about the parents of the girls missing in Nigeria by Boko Haram. Do you think that those people would want the US (as the World police as you say) or the French military to just ask gently and reach a "dialogue" with them to bring the girls back and not have them be sold off as wives and forced conversion to a religion they are not a part of, or would you rather they would want the authorities to do as much as they can to bring them back, and not just start some twitter hash tag campaign that does nothing but makes the likes of you "feel good" about doing something.

Do a search on Richard Blum, DiFi's husband. Look at his business dealings since DiFi has been in Congress and how their net worth has grown. So now that she is on her way out of the comittee she wants to drop this kind of bomb, when she has been profiting from our policies there.

stating your case, that does happen in Japan, where you can be held for up to 23 days without knowing what your charges are

That's not the same at all. Japan does not detain the intellectually challenged in order to get leverage on a family member who might know something; nor are people deliberately chained on bare concrete in freezing cold rooms in a state of undress until they die of hypothermia. Would you be happy with the Alpha Clan being subjected to that kind of treatment in order for the police to obtain from you or some other relative some piece of information that you may or may not have, and that might or might not be fabricated? (The report points out that detainees did make up stuff just to get the treatment to stop)

But what about those people who had not choice in 9/11 and either had to burn with the World Trade or just jump?

How does abusing intellectually challenged people, people who have been detained on false evidence and people who have been sold by dishonest neighbours, help a single one of those people?

What about the parents of the girls missing in Nigeria by Boko Haram. Do you think that those people would want the US (as the World police as you say) or the French military to just ask gently and reach a "dialogue" with them to bring the girls back

So, how many girls have been brought back using tough guy tactics? How many intellectually challenged people do you need to torture in order to bring one girl back?

just start some twitter hash tag campaign that does nothing but makes the likes of you "feel good" about doing something.

Isn't it rather the folk who plead But what about 9/11 and are so gung-ho about torturing 'them' who are feeling good about 'doing something'?

@ cleo: No the US is not the World's police, and no it would not be nice for my family to be thrown in jail for some supposed crime. However, stating your case, that does happen in Japan, where you can be held for up to 23 days without knowing what your charges are.

But we are not talking about crimes but acts of terror and war. If some were caught up then that is a bad thing. But what about those people who had not choice in 9/11 and either had to burn with the World Trade or just jump? What about those people in Syria and Western Iraq who are not Sunni (or Shia) and have to be subject to beheadings and all of the other things that they put them through.

Exactly, 100% agreed. I cannot put myself in their shoes, because I'm not a terrorist and I wasn't involved or responsible for killing 3000. Again, it's brutal, there is NO question about that, but for people like that, knowing that they would slit your throat for any reason just being what you are or for what you believe in or your way of life or values? Sorry, I really don't have a problem with enhanced interrogation techniques, if it can save lives from a possible attack, then "Green light" all the way. I have Zero sympathy for these animals.

So, how many girls have been brought back using tough guy tactics? How many intellectually challenged people do you need to torture in order to bring one girl back?

@ cleo, so far none have been brought back from enhanced methods, the same amount that has been brought back from a hash tag campaign. You keep referring to the "intellectually challenged" so what does that really mean? Are you saying that the slow witted are being tortured? Well, I would suggest you take a look at a few videos posted on the web by people who denounce these terror groups, and how they use the "slow" and not too bright young men, fill their head full of promises of 72 virgins in the afterlife and that their families would be taken care of and then strapped with a vest and told to go blow themselves up. A good video documentary that I saw on that was produced by Vice, not your normal right wing group and they in Afghanistan interviewing people to find out what makes young boys want to blow themselves up. Parents, and other elders pointed out that fact, they take the weakest minded persons and send them off to fight, whilie the so called "leaders" sit back and preach hate. Not only there but in other places you will probably find similar stories.

So if the CIA is going into mental hospitals and gathering up the mentally ill to tortue, then yes we have a problem. But they aren't, those people are being sent to fight by the so called leaders to do so and if they are caught then it's their fault and not the CIA's.

I cannot put myself in their shoes, because I'm not a terrorist and I wasn't involved or responsible for killing 3000

Neither was the intellectually challenged person who was detained in order to get leverage on a family member.

Neither were the individuals detained based solely on information fabricated by a CIA detainee subjected to the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques.

knowing that they would slit your throat for any reason just being what you are or for what you believe in

I'm not into slitting throats, but I can understand why 'they' might not like 'you' very much.

we are not talking about crimes

What the CIA was doing was very much a crime, compounded many times over.

cleo:

" So, how many girls have been brought back using tough guy tactics? " How many girls have been brought back by Michelles "bring back the girls" Twitter hashtag?

" sn't it rather the folk who plead But what about 9/11 and are so gung-ho about torturing 'them' who are feeling good about 'doing something'? "

Sorry, but that line is simply dishonest. Firstly, the isolation/water dunking/whatever the CIA did might have been brutal and we can talk about that, but slapping the same "torture" label on it as for the shredded bodies that ISIS torturers leave behind is simply tasteless polemic. Secondly, this never about "feelgood" but rather about results, and remember that there were results, including eg. the arrest of the murderers of David Pearle.

Which of the various illustrious regimes does the CIA most resemble ? The Inquisitors? SS? ISIS? Boy Scouts?

I will pat these politicians on the back when people are actually in the dock about to pay for their crimes of torture.

Until then, its politics and BS. And I predict its going to stay that way.

I will further bet that those who have never been waterboarded for days on end would wish they had the option of beheading. Its all very nasty business. The lack or presence of blood is hardly the defining factor in something as sick as brutal torture. Americans did that enough during Vietnam and still did not learn its counter productive as well as evil. But hey, some people just get off on this stuff and we all know it. Excuses not bought. Sorry.

Neither was the intellectually challenged person who was detained in order to get leverage on a family member.

Anyone that was involved in the attacks, accomplices, friends, family, at the time and up until the CIA had credible Intel that the threat wasn't severe, they couldn't take a chance, at that point all of the associates were under serious suspicion again, given the events, if I were in charge, I would have ordered the same tactics.

Neither were the individuals detained based solely on information fabricated by a CIA detainee subjected to the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques.

Better safe than sorry. Look, these people had a choice, the people that hung around with the jihadists, that conspired with them were putting themselves in a very bad position and were extremely ignorant if they thought that the US was not going to come for them.

You keep referring to the "intellectually challenged" so what does that really mean?

It's in the report. I suggest you try reading it. There's a link to it from the Guardian link I gave earlier. There is no suggestion at all that the person in question had tried to, or would try to, blow anybody up.

But, by your logic, if there are some bad people in a community it's OK to do whaddevva you like to anyone in any way connected to that community. You realise that's the same kind of logic the perpetrators of 9/11 used? That all those people dying in the World Trade Centre buildings simply got what was coming to them, because they were part of the American community and enjoying the American Way of Life? That way of thinking is sick.

But they aren't

How'dye know what they were doing if you haven't even read the report?

remember that there were results

And a lot of non-results. Read the report.

In some cases there was no relationship between the cited counterterrorism success and any information provided by detainees during or after the use of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques. In the remaining cases, the CIA inaccurately claimed that specific, otherwise unavailable information was acquired from a CIA detainee 'as a result' of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques, when in fact the information was either: (1) corroborative of information already available to the CIA or other elements of the US Intelligence Community from sources other than the CIA detainee, and was therefore not 'otherwise unavailable'; or (2) acquired from the CIA detainee prior to the use of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques.

America is being destroyed by clandestine powers such as the CIA and their weak and corrupt politicians! The Land of the Free?Morals?Justice? How can Americans stand to be led by psychopaths like GW Bush who ordered the deaths of thousands of innocent people and whose evil legacy continues to this day!!! How was America protected by stacking nude Iraqis on each other and then terrorizing them with dogs? This happened at Abu Grahib which was subsequently destroyed to erase this image of wrongdoing by the US government. Is Obama any better? Look at Egypt where Morsi the elected ruler rots in a jail and Mubarak has power, people are being executed and free speech is a dream! The US State has no comment!Obama talks the talk and that's it......

So, when are Bush, Cheney and crew going to brought to justice?

There is no suggestion at all that the person in question had tried to, or would try to, blow anybody up.

Yes, but there wasn't a report that exonerated him from suspeciion and that would have been a gross negligent derilection of duty had the CIA NOT taken precautions to throw this guy through the ringer. You are looking at it from your perspective as a civilian, you cannot understand what these agents have to deal with on a daily basis and its a good thing we don't know everything, we don't need to. There are people fighting for our freedom everyday and people on missions as we speak. I don't begrudge these people. You make it seem as if they are picking up people at random and beating the crap out of them just for the sheer pleasure of it and that is just not true.

But, by your logic, if there are some bad people in a community it's OK to do whaddevva you like to anyone in any way connected to that community.

to find out If the person(s) were involved in a 9/11 style plot to kill thousands of people like on that tragic day, you betcha!

You realise that's the same kind of logic the perpetrators of 9/11 used?

Well, they can use their twisted logic all they want, until we go over there and bomb one of their buildings with thousands of people working minding their business from all over the world, there shouldn't be any shame in what we had to do. No one told OBL and his thugs to orchestrate and kill innocent Americans.

That all those people dying in the World Trade Centre buildings simply got what was coming to them, because they were part of the American community and enjoying the American Way of Life? That way of thinking is sick.

So you honest think that slapping the **** out of KSM bothered me or that he had convulsions??? So what. He's still alive at least, which in my opinion is a waste of tax payer money, but he can still talk about what he did! The people that were murdered on that day, who will speak for them?!

America is being destroyed by clandestine powers such as the CIA and their weak and corrupt politicians!

Actually, America to put it bluntly was doing just fine up until 6 years ago, when the party of screaming chickens took over. Again, there was NO reason or urgent emergency to bring out this report. Ok, so Feinstein released the documents, so now what? You think Guantanamo is going to close, do you think the Republicans will lose the Senate, you think people are so damn angry that now the GOP is in big trouble? The Dems are a stupid bunch Feinstein and money other top Dems knew about the enhanced interrogation techniques, most were ok with it and now all of a sudden, they are crying foul??? These people are a joke. Thank God, we have 2 more years left to deal with these liars and backstabbing cowards!

The Land of the Free?Morals?Justice?

For millions of people, Yes, it is.

How can Americans stand to be led by psychopaths like GW Bush who ordered the deaths of thousands of innocent people and whose evil legacy continues to this day!!!

So what about Obama and his war in Afghanistan? How about Obama having blood on his hands with ISIS and and releasing 5 of the worst terrorists of one idiotic, spoiled deserter? Now we are going back into Iraq, but didn't Obama take a bow for the war is over? If you are going to condemn GW, don't forget to throw in Obama and even Clinton if you really want to be PC!

How was America protected by stacking nude Iraqis on each other and then terrorizing them with dogs?

Where are those idiots now that did that?

This happened at Abu Grahib which was subsequently destroyed to erase this image of wrongdoing by the US government. Is Obama any better? Look at Egypt where Morsi the elected ruler rots in a jail and Mubarak has power, people are being executed and free speech is a dream! The US State has no comment!Obama talks the talk and that's it......

Exactly!

@bertie

So, when are Bush, Cheney and crew going to brought to justice?

Probably around the same time Obama and the Dems are brought in.

" but slapping the same "torture" label on it as for the shredded bodies"

We speak of torture. You change the subject to murder where it suits you.

Let us remember that people still rot in Guantanamo despite never being charged, despite no even being fully documented, and despite being set for release 5 years ago, they still languish there because no one will take them in, not even the United States which bears full responsibility for their condition. And being in jail with no hope is a severe form of psychological torture, on top of the tortures many of them have already received. We are talking dozens of people, but supporters sure like to lump them in with people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed which on the level of lumping me in with GWB and torturing and jailing me for it.

How many of those people still in Guantanamo would have preferred the shredder? What they are doing now is only living in a clinical sense.

WilliB

Did you actually bother to read the report?

Forcing prisoners to stand with broken legs, forcing them to be awake for 180 hours straight is not torture to you?

To even justify that kind of treatment is sickening, and just goes to show how some people are cold hearted.

Brutal CIA questioning didn't work, Senate report says

So, the CIA used brutal tactics against terrorists who murdered innocent people. If one innocent person was saved because of those tactics they were well worth it!

http://www.salon.com/2014/12/09/cia_director_insists_torture_saved_lives/

But to the bleeding hearts on the left the rights of terrorists are more important than the lives of the innocent.

Next Presidential election in the states the left will feel even worse when their chickens come home to roost. Republican President, Republican Senate and Republican House will be their reward for their antics.

..."Land of the Free" my hiney.... "We are FREE. Why do you think we have thousands of people breaking every law trying to get in."

And there are thousands of people trying to get into China. So what? People crossing borders is not a measure of freedom. The US borders Mexico. Somehow, I don't think the founding fathers dreamed that their descendants would be boasting, "at least we're better than Mexico."

Is there politics behind this report? Of course. There's politics behind everything in the "land of the free."

"But to the bleeding hearts on the left the rights of terrorists are more important than the lives of the innocent."

You have it precisely backward JoeBigs. Since guilt has not been proven, we are concerned the innocent got tortured and have had their health and lives destroyed to the point they might prefer death. You just assume they are guilty of something because its convenient for you, and you don't even consider that even if they were members of some group, it may well have been because America was running amok in THEIR country!

" If one innocent person was saved because of those tactics they were well worth it!"

This sort of impunity is historically proven to harm more innocents than it ever saves. If one innocent is never again nabbed and tortured without any sort of due process, and never again jailed for years without a trial or charges, it will be well worth closing down gitmo and jailing all those responsible for this embarrassing chapter in American history.

And I will close in saying that all those that downplay these tortures should get together and subject each other to them in the same way as was done to those people. No word on when it ends. No access to friends, families or lawyers for just as many years. Enjoy.

And there are thousands of people trying to get into China. So what?

So that's why, so many of them are coming to the States, I got it now, Thanks!

People crossing borders is not a measure of freedom.

Tell that to the Chinese, Koreans, Mexicans, other people from Latin America, Africa, Russia and the list goes on......

The US borders Mexico. Somehow, I don't think the founding fathers dreamed that their descendants would be boasting, "at least we're better than Mexico."

They didn't envison that we would have a government that try to turn our Nation into a socialist Society either.

Is there politics behind this report? Of course. There's politics behind everything in the "land of the free."

That goes for every country. We're not the exception.

The report, released after months of negotiations with the administration about what should be censored, was issued amid concerns of an anti-American backlash overseas. American embassies and military sites worldwide were taking extra precautions.

... I laughed when I read this. In every other country around the world we all knew what was going on, we all knew it was torture, we all knew it hadn't produced any reliable intelligence, and we all knew that the USA had lost any moral authority it thought it had.

Ironically, the only people who didn't know all this were in the "land of the free", which prides itself on freedom of the press, and freedom of speech... and has neither.

... I laughed when I read this. In every other country around the world we all knew what was going on, we all knew it was torture, we all knew it hadn't produced any reliable intelligence, and we all knew that the USA had lost any moral authority it thought it had.

So you are trying to make a moral equivalency that torturing roughly 39 people is the same as planning and purposely murdering 3000 people?

Personally, I think these guys got off lucky if you ask me. 3000 are dead and you think seriously anyone cares about 39 thugs being slammed and slapped like itches. What really chaps my ss is that for what purpose did this report do? Oh, wait...Jonathan Gruber was being grilled hard today in the House Hearing and the timing was just so hmmmm...convenient. Deflection? Of course NOT! Feinstein and the Dems were briefed over every single detail of what was going on with KSM and the others and what enhanced techniques they were using and NO one objected and if they hated and were not in agreement then, why not say something years ago? Why today on the day Gruber was going to testify all of a sudden?

Ironically, the only people who didn't know all this were in the "land of the free", which prides itself on freedom of the press, and freedom of speech... and has neither.

No, most people knew and are not dumb or really shocked by what the CIA did, most people just really don't care about these guys, not to mention NO ONE is surprised after 6 years what this president and this WH does anymore.

The GOP nominated as its presidential candidate just six years ago John McCain - a guy I have serious differences with except when it comes to torture. (You know, experience and all.) How so many in the GOP ignore his sage advice here is telling. A link to his floor statement is below, but consider this:

Our enemies act without conscience. We must not. This executive summary of the Committee’s report makes clear that acting without conscience isn’t necessary, it isn’t even helpful, in winning this strange and long war we’re fighting.

Counterproductive, in a word. Has the GOP drifted so far to the right that they can no longer hear their champions of just yesterday?

http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=1a15e343-66b0-473f-b0c1-a58f984db996

Most of those "interrogated" were very likely terrorists of one form or another but in some first world countries more people are dying whilst detained by immigration authorities for the serious offence of overstaying their visas; not too much fuss about that in the world press for some strange reason.

The GOP nominated as its presidential candidate just six years ago John McCain - a guy I have serious differences with except when it comes to torture. (You know, experience and all.) How so many in the GOP ignore his sage advice here is telling.

With all due respect to the Senator, that is just one persons opinion and also 9/11 happened and the FBI and the CIA wanted answers, we had NO idea when another attack was coming the FBI uses the technique of let's be friends, talk, get to know each other, a more softer cozy kind of approach to building up trust, the CIA very different and there was NO time to waste, so they took over and decided that things should be ratcheted up a notch and Yes, I read the report, it was brutal, but...Oh, well... Also, the Republicans unlike the Democrats are not within lock, step and sync with each other on every issue.

Counterproductive, in a word. Has the GOP drifted so far to the right that they can no longer hear their champions of just yesterday?

No, more like, 9/11 happened and a light went on and the need to better secure the country from radical terrorism.

" In every other country around the world we all knew what was going on, we all knew it was torture, we all knew it hadn't produced any reliable intelligence, and we all knew that the USA had lost any moral authority it thought it had. Ironically, the only people who didn't know all this were in the "land of the free", which prides itself on freedom of the press, and freedom of speech... and has neither."

Have to agree.

Yes, Laguna, I also agree with you on the one point of McCain's comment. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day. McCain experienced torture first hand, so at least he recognizes that.

Sure, Bush/Cheney Enterprises made some mistakes.

Funny how, when the "news" was embedded, and no one wanted to know anything about this, while journalists were held in American prisons, so American Soldiers could home in coffins no one could photograph, because the Black Water Ops campaign of multi-lateral secrecy meant no one could know anything about how completely irrational and destructive the BushWars were managed and justified, now seems like a really bad plan.

Funnier still, the GOP-Tea, author of this disaster, is now in control of the US Congress.

It just gets funnier and funnier.

I'm just glad my country has these reports and I don't live in Russia or China. You can take your false equivalencies and talk to the hand. The hand ain't listening.

I am more ashamed of my country now than ever. Imprisonment and sometimes even death can be justified, but torture? No.

"Republican Sen. John McCain, tortured in Vietnam as a prisoner of war, welcomed the report and endorsed its findings in the main.

“We gave up much in the expectation that torture would make us safer,” he said in a Senate speech. “Too much.”

Thankfully, one voice in the GOP-Tea Mad House says one important truth. A truth that too many will deny in their contrived ignorance.

For some, who sadly champion torture as part of their American exceptionalism, they have proved one thing. Compassionate Conservatism has proved to be neither and no more exceptional than any other war profiteer in history except in the scale of these corrupt and immoral fiends' depravity.

"we had NO idea when another attack was coming"

Because Bush, Condi and other members of the administration chose to ignore an official US intelligence report stating in its title of "possible attacks on US soil," which was delivered directly to them before 911.

That was August 2001, while Bush spent the entire month on his ranch playing golf and taking life easy. His administration had better things to do at the time.

If you want to blame Bush, then you need to go back further and blame Clinton for NOT trying get OBL back in 1998. So why don't you be fair? Don't just go back to 2001. That is the main issue!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/bill-clinton-hours-911-attacks-killed-osama-bin/story?id=24801422

There was no reason for bringing up this report, now that you know. so now what? One person died, so you are telling me, slapping someone, throwing them against the wall, putting insects on them, depriving them of sleep? If we had a record number of people dying on a massive scale, you might have a point. You think our enemies will hate us more than they already do? Remember our freedom in this country didn't come from playing by the rules all the time, that is just pure nonsense.

bass

our freedom in this country didn't come from playing by the rules all the time

I guess you have a point. Our 'freedom' came at the expense of genocide, slavery, neocolonialism, systemic discrimination, economic favoritism of corporations and the rich, global policing, and torture.

Which of those are you proud of?

Bass, please point me to the page in the report where it describes the 'intellectually challenged' individual needing to be exonerated from suspicion (suspicion of what?) and thrown through the ringer, because I cannot find it.

Thank you.

You make it seem as if they are picking up people at random and beating the crap out of them just for the sheer pleasure of it

Erm no, that what the report says they did. (Well it doesn't actually say 'for the sheer pleasure of it' in so many words, but if they didn't know who they had in custody, didn't know if they knew anything or not, didn't get any useful information out of anyone yet still carried on with the torture - and had people who, not understanding the language of the person being tortured, were unable to understand any information blurted out during a torture session - why on earth were they doing it, if not for the pleasure they got out of it?)

they can use their twisted logic all they want, until we go over there and bomb one of their buildings with thousands of people working minding their business from all over the world, there shouldn't be any shame in what we had to do.

The US went 'over there' and bombed lots of their buildings with tens if not hundreds of thousands of people minding their business. There is plenty of shame there, bass. Trying to pinpoint why you don't feel it is apparently what got my last post zapped.

No one told OBL and his thugs to orchestrate and kill innocent Americans.

But you're quite happy to have your country 'orchestrate and kill' innocent non-Americans. Please try to explain the difference.

The GOP nominated as its presidential candidate just six years ago John McCain - a guy I have serious differences with except when it comes to torture. (You know, experience and all.) How so many in the GOP ignore his sage advice here is telling.

People tend to forget that McCain was a Naval Officer, and during that time and still going on now, military members are taught the "Code of Conduct" on how they are to act as a POW as a results from lessons learned from WW2, and Korea. It was designed as a guide for them to follow, to help them understand their duties as an American fighter and what they are to do and not to do. It does talk about tortue, and it realizes that each person has a breaking point, and if they reach that point, it is understood, but the goal of the Code of Conduct is that they shouldn't just "roll over" and abet the enemy.

So yes McCain is right tortue may not have worked in his and other cases of American POWs in Vietnam since they had been taught guidance and to understand their duty as a military warrior. This warrior ethos is what guided them and still does, even though some may have broken. But these terrorist don't have this guidance, and if they do have one, it is only that they will get their reward in paradise.

I guess you have a point. Our 'freedom' came at the expense of genocide, slavery, neocolonialism, systemic discrimination, economic favoritism of corporations and the rich, global policing, and torture.

Which of those are you proud of?

Everything has its price and every first world nation has done bad things or questionable things to get where they are today and the poorer countries are worse, where you have human rights trampled on every single day. As long as we learned from our past, we can move forward, however the dynamics dramatically changed once a country like ours was on attacked on 9/11 The FBI and CIA did their best with the tools that they were allowed to use to get the people that were responsible and for keep our country safe, they should be praised and applauded and not vilified.

@cleo

please point me to the page in the report where it describes the 'intellectually challenged' individual needing to be exonerated from suspicion (suspicion of what?) and thrown through the ringer, because I cannot find it.

What I was referring to you is, we don't know what the CIA or which contractor knew what or was suspicious of what? We weren't there and if one of the agents at the time felt it was necessary to interrogate a potential person of interest, why not?

Erm no, that what the report says they did. (Well it doesn't actually say 'for the sheer pleasure of it' in so many words, but if they didn't know who they had in custody, didn't know if they knew anything or not, didn't get any useful information out of anyone yet still carried on with the torture - and had people who, not understanding the language of the person being tortured, were unable to understand any information blurted out during a torture session - why on earth were they doing it, if not for the pleasure they got out of it?)

Here we go, so now you think you can understand or read the minds of how a field agent thinks or operates? Again, you don't know what they know and NO witnesses came forward or testified to challenge any of the reports.

The US went 'over there' and bombed lots of their buildings with tens if not hundreds of thousands of people minding their business.

That happens in a war, show me a war in history where you didn't have collateral damage? If we go by that ludicrous logic, all wars since the days of Spartan were just wrong and immoral.

There is plenty of shame there, bass. Trying to pinpoint why you don't feel it is apparently what got my last post zapped.

Then it wasn't that important. The only shame belongs to the Democrats who continuously try and try in vain in hoping to make some political stride by attempting to throw monkey wrenches at the Republicans when they themselves benifited greatly from enhanced interrogations and now that they are unhappy with the new GOP congress and with Johnathan Gruber on the hot stand before the House hearings on the insidious comments he made about the American people and how they fooled the people to pass Obamacare, just ironic how this CIA revelation blew everyone's attention from Gruber, Ferguson, Gardner and racism? Very conveniently strange.

But you're quite happy to have your country 'orchestrate and kill' innocent non-Americans. Please try to explain the difference.

I would anything to keep my country safe from radical terrorism, or any person or group, foreign or domestic, big difference and that is all that we are talking about.

What I was referring to you is, we don't know

You know what's in the report if you've read it. Just tell me the page number where it says the intellectually challenged individual was suspected of anything. Or that he was interrogated.

so now you think you can understand or read the minds of how a field agent thinks or operates?

No, I most certainly do not understand the mind of a person who thinks it's jes' fine to torture people - even bad people, though we're not sure they were all bad people - to get information that they already have or that is likely to be fabricated anyway. I do not want to understand that mindset, and if I did find myself beginning to understand it, I would take myself off to a shrink because I would be mentally ill.

You know what's in the report if you've read it. Just tell me the page number where it says the intellectually challenged individual was suspected of anything. Or that he was interrogated.

Just because I read it, does it mean now I'm in the class of Cleo and I have to prepare for a quiz test? Come on now! I have better things to do. Again, I read all of it and as I said, I don't know what the contractors were thinking, what mindset they were in, but if they had a reasonable suspicion, so be it. I'm not going to quibble with their judgement. They do this for a living and my hats off to them if they have a reasonalbe feeling about an individual.

No, I most certainly do not understand the mind of a person who thinks it's jes' fine to torture people - even bad people, though we're not sure they were all bad people

No, we are not sure, I'll leave it to those guys who do this for a living.

to get information that they already have or that is likely to be fabricated anyway. I do not want to understand that mindset, and if I did find myself beginning to understand it, I would take myself off to a shrink because I would be mentally ill.

But we can never take a chance after an attack like that, nor should we ever.

Just because I read it, does it mean now I'm in the class of Cleo and I have to prepare for a quiz test?

If you have information that backs up your claim, isn't it to your advantage in making your point if you can provide your source? If you cannot or refuse to provide a source you claim to have, it makes people think maybe perhaps it's possible you might not have the source you claim to have.

I have better things to do.

I imagine you're quite behind if you spent yesterday reading through a report covering pages of 525 closely-printed text and posting copious comments on JT all day long at the same time.

Again, I read all of it and as I said, I don't know what the contractors were thinking, what mindset they were in, but if they had a reasonable suspicion, so be it.

If you've read the report you know it says that they had no suspicion regarding him at all. He was held solely as leverage to get a family member to provide information. Would you be happy having a vulnerable member of your family held for the sole purpose of getting you to provide information you may or may not have? Do you think the rest of your family would feel cordially inclined towards the people who incarcerated your innocent vulnerable family member? Or do you think it would likely make your peace-loving, law-abiding family members feel very angry towards the people who did that to your vulnerable family member, and make them want to exact satisfaction in whatever way might be open to them?

I'll leave it to those guys who do this for a living.

Yes, you'll leave it to the guys who seem to have the same kind of mindset. I don't see you taking the same easy attitude towards the man who does presidenting for a living, or the people who do politics for a living, if they happen to sit in blue seats.

If you have information that backs up your claim, isn't it to your advantage in making your point if you can provide your source?

Don't need to. I am just playing Devil's advocate and having and knowing people in the agency and again for the record, we don't know the mindset and as in Hilary's most famous words "what difference does it make?"

If you cannot or refuse to provide a source you claim to have, it makes people think maybe perhaps it's possible you might not have the source you claim to have.

Cleo, seriously if people think that, it's perfectly alright with me. I didn't sound off any quotes, I merely said, the possibility of what the agents were thinking of what tactics to use and how they came to the conclusions they did doesn't bother me in the least.

I imagine you're quite behind if you spent yesterday reading through a report covering pages of 525 closely-printed text and posting copious comments on JT all day long at the same time.

Glossing over key points and multitasking is something that doesn't require a significant amount of skill.

If you've read the report you know it says that they had no suspicion regarding him at all.

That is left to anyone's interpretation. Because it was printed doesn't mean it was or panned out like that. It is not entirely conclusive. Been too long in this business of taking everything face value.

He was held solely as leverage to get a family member to provide information.

Fine, you just made my point.

Would you be happy having a vulnerable member of your family held for the sole purpose of getting you to provide information you may or may not have?

If I am accused in any way of associating myself with the enemy in any fashion, then that's on me and I would have NO other choice but to accept the inevitable.

Do you think the rest of your family would feel cordially inclined towards the people who incarcerated your innocent vulnerable family member?

Dunno, I would never put myself or my family in that situation, so I cannot relate.

Or do you think it would likely make your peace-loving, law-abiding family members feel very angry towards the people who did that to your vulnerable family member, and make them want to exact satisfaction in whatever way might be open to them?

I can't speak for them.

Yes, you'll leave it to the guys who seem to have the same kind of mindset. I don't see you taking the same easy attitude towards the man who does presidenting for a living, or the people who do politics for a living, if they happen to sit in blue seats.

No, I just hate these guys trying to gain sympathy and bring on hatred for what? This serves absolutely NO purpose other than to hopefully try to get the people on your side, but libs are narrow-minded, case in point: droning people is ok, but water boarding is not?? Give me a break.

Anybody who thinks the CIA has done a good job post 9-11 is in a very small minority, mainly consisting of previous Directors and their Deputies.

The torture was not only painful but also disgusting in extremis! The euphemistic 'rectal feeding' was a method employed to elicit information. All I can imagine is that the CIA has a large number of sadists on the team.

According to CNN news, water torturing method is just copy of Japanese water torturing method, CIA announced. Method used against American prisoners during WW II. Not my opinion, so don't blame me.

Sigh.... one day the US will be gone and we won't have to hear the whiney sniveling gits who are complaining about this because they'll have to be doing it themselves as their world falls apart around them.

I'm pretty sure all American's posting here agree that torture is wrong, but those of us that advocate for the CIA to do it's duty to gather whatever information they can get by using whatever means necessary within reason (prisoners still get food and healthcare to keep them alive) even if it makes the person being interrogated miserable and uncomfortable. If we just kept them in prison and let them walk around freely and fed them and let them sleep, they'd just see it as a Hilton hotel with bars on the windows. The goal here is not to kill them with kindness, its to get info out of them. And Islamists see kindness as weakness, that is why many of us don't have compassion on them.