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California bar shooter was ex-Marine; had mental health review

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By KATHLEEN RONAYNE and JUSTIN PRITCHARD

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50 Comments
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America your own fault, this will continue to happen with your stupid gun laws. No pity, you are stupidly trying to blame the media and other things when it all comes down to how you allow nearly anyone to get a gun under the gaze of "freedom"

23 ( +25 / -2 )

We'll soon hear gunner nutters screaming how this guy's mental health issues are to blame and not the firearm. We'll also hear about how ineffective firearm control laws are because this guy had an illegal high-capacity clip.

If everyone in the US didn't have such easy access to firearms, we wouldn't have to worry as much about people with mental health issues having such easy access to firearms.

If places with strict firearms control laws were isolated from places without firearm control laws, the firearm control laws would be far more effective.

15 ( +17 / -2 )

taking guns away and placing the blame on guns is not the issue

Yes, it is.

and is a losing argument that can be beaten every time

No, it can't.

These are naked assertions with no supporting evidence from someone who has repeatedly demonstrated a lack of ability to research and think logically.

13 ( +16 / -3 )

Senseless deaths, yet many will believe that their right to dangerous toys is worth more than the lives of the victims.

12 ( +13 / -1 )

RIP to all innocents lives lost. Once again. Knock wood those physically injured will recover completely. Knock wood those affected emotionally will be able to get the support they need to recover. Condolences to all who lost friends, family members and acquaintances. 

Thank you to all law enforcement and emergency service responders. You earn every cent of your hard earned pay, especially when having to deal with tragedies like this.

Taxpayers at all levels, city, county, state and federal, it’s too bad that once again you’ve got to pick up the tab for another gun massacre. It could well be this event further increases your taxes.

The only people benefitting are those in the guns and ammo businesses; they’ll probably see increased sales afterward.

This, like all other gun massacres of innocents, has to be looked at as a complex dynamic made up of any number of variables. The one thing that I’ve noticed in all gun massacres, the one thing that ties them all together, the one way they are all alike is

a human with a GUN fired BULLETS to kill innocent people.

12 ( +12 / -0 )

@bas4 Emotions won’t solve this issue, solutions and a middle ground will.

Until I see the NRA and its membership propose measures to reach 'a middle ground' (How'd the restrictions on bump stocks turn out?), for example by working with those who actually want to take steps to limit gun violence instead of demonizing them, until I see the politicians intimidated by the NRA and its membership willing to take steps to limit gun violence, I'll assume y'all are just going to continue to say shoganai and blame mental health. Which you know you're unwilling to provide more money for. Again, thank the right's Ronald Reagan for starting the programs to cut spending for mental health.

Start by banning ALL semi-automatic weapons for all civilians. Police must enforce existing laws re converting semi-automatics to fully automatic, enforce the no big-magazine laws, the courts must stop wrist slapping violators of existing gun laws, among others.

And further tax all purchases of guns and ammo with funds to be earmarked to finance the costs of gun massacres.

12 ( +13 / -1 )

There are many countries in the world where people can have guns but shooting incidents happen most often in the U.S.A. Why is that?

11 ( +11 / -0 )

PTSD...Divorce, result, suicide by cop. Not all people suffering take this route, and thankfully so, and it doesn't justify the actions, but HOPEFULLY this will turn a very bright light on the men and women in the armed forces, and those that have gotten out too, regarding the pain and suffering they are going through with PTSD.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

If we can't solve 12M illegal immigrants walking around the USA, what makes you think we can solve 300M firearms, inside homes and businesses that 90% of the owners won't give up?

Undocumented immigrants are a separate issue, please don't conflate the two. We have had nationwide firearms restrictions before - assault weapons ban - that have been effective. No, it wasn't a cure, but it helped.

The logic you employed dictates that we take no action unless it is 100% effective.

Access to a firearm just makes it easier,

Full stop.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

13 more victims are dead and the usual arguments are taking place here and on other media platforms around the world.

And nothing will happen. Tempers will get heated and the same old rhetoric will dominate. Nobody will be brave enough to address why America is in love with the gun.

RIP to the dead and the thousands more to follow.

8 ( +9 / -1 )

Access to a firearm just makes it easier, but having no access wouldn't stop it.

Agree, it wouldn't but you gotta start somewhere. There is no overnight solution i.e gun violence is too deeply entrenched in American culture but restricting access to firearms & less glorifying of weapons & gun violence (including in the military, media, politics, movies etc) would help.

As an aside, I also think that the govt, twitter, facebook etc should do more to stop ppl, pseudo journos & media who spread false rumours; last night, Ian David Long was often described as a 'middle eastern gunman'.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

@goldork last night, Ian David Long was often described as a 'middle eastern gunman'.

And on this site posters claimed it was ANTIFA. Bigot's gonna bigot. And social media and the Internet gives them forums to increase the hatred and bigotry.

Governments as well as privately funded organizations that pay trolls to spread lies intended to flame and increase bigotry and hatred need to be censored.

Those overseeing social media sites need to do what they're legally able to do to stop trolls and flamers, the scum of the Earth.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

Simple : other countries have far less guns and much more restrictions, so they don't have mass shootings every other day.

The USA doesn't have mass shootings every other day. This is easily proven as false.

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

November 9th is the 313th day of the year, there's been 307 mass shootings in 2018.

That's more than every other day actually.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

Again and again! America is really cursed by guns. It seems not blessed as long as guns are there. So glad here in Japan no guns.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

Simple : other countries have far less guns and much more restrictions, so they don't have mass shootings every other day.

While the US thinks prayer is a valid solution.

At this point, they should know what's to be done. If they don't, it's their own fault.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

Living in Japan has its downsides, but at least I don't have to worry about my kids being shot at school, my wife being shot at yoga, and me being shot at the pub.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

Sheesh. My daughter's accepted a job at a location near Thousand Oaks. But then, this is America - one never knows when or where mass slaughter will occur, just that it will.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

have medical and mental weekly evaluation, better monitoring especially if it is proven you are more volatile then you should not be allowed to purchase, carry or have any firearms in your home.

Then you'd have to make sure your mental health services are vastly expanded and are funded adequately. That means higher taxes to pay for it, not exactly a popular notion in American political circles. Also legislation would have to be enacted to limit, curtail and even prohibit gun ownership for some - anathema to far too many in the US.

Emotions won’t solve this issue, solutions and a middle ground will.

Yes. But "emotions" "solutions" and "a middle ground" don't mean the same thing to everyone, as demonstrated on these pages and everywhere else whenever something like this latest incident happens.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Why do they call these people "mental health experts" when they are totally incapable of spotting psychosis? An expert is a person who can actually DO something. Let alone not being able to do anything about this guy, these psychs couldn't even SPOT the condition.

We’re talking the human psyche here. There are no owners manuals or construction specs. Those are some pretty unrealistic expectations you have there.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

If there is a will there is a way......problem is there is no will.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

But I do not hear guns are used for crimes in the country while it is not so in U.S.

Many Americans seem to think life is a Hollywood movie, and these events are a perverted fantasy of some supposedly heroic gun scene they've been playing in their minds.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

'There's nothing to be done!' says the one country where this happens on the reg. The American version of gun control is, 'Use both hands.'

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Love of the gun + love of profits that guns bring. The bad people in this story are the gun industry, gun lobbyists and the utterly vile National Rife Association.

Note, in this horror story there was a “good guy with a gun.” He got killed.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Maybe it's merely the human cost of dirty business (wars)

3 ( +3 / -0 )

More repugnance from republicans:

A day after Judge Glenn Devlin of Houston lost his reelection bid, he released nearly all of the juvenile defendants who appeared before him, as long as they answered no when he asked if they planned to kill anyone.

Devlin, one of the 59 Republican jurists in Harris County who was replaced by Democrats, allegedly said: “This is obviously what the voters wanted,” when he released juveniles who have been charged with a wide range of crimes, according to ABC 10.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/judge-loses-re-election-sets-defendants-free-long-promised-not-kill-anyone-223716167.html

Conservatibes simply can't separate their personal opinions from their professional life,

3 ( +4 / -1 )

We’re talking the human psyche here

We're talking about the most complex organism on the planet, each one made up of billions of neurons connected by TRILLIONS of synapses, sets of bio-chemical-electrical connections affected by each part of the system and all parts in the environment, those external to the body.

External effects include words and pictures.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

I’m all for gun control, sure. That said, this guy had a pistol - not some kitted our automatic AR. As another user mentioned, many other countries allow you to carry or own at least a handgun, yet you don’t see shooting after shooting.

That said, just another ‘culling the herd’ day in America. See you all in the comments for the next shooting in about 2 weeks ?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Another day another shooting!

this is becoming too common.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Sadly this won’t change anything!

lots of veterans get out and don’t even realize that they have issues until it’s too late, then the “experts” come in with all kinds of information about how it could have been prevented.

neverending cycle.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Just another day in the good ol' USA. Since they refuse to rethink their utter stupidity on guns, this is, Always, just daily news. How sad. I truly feel sorry for the victims and family members who Believe in stricter gun laws or even in not having guns at all because of this kind of problem. I have almost no sympathy for those who stand by the right to bear arms. Yet another gun-nutter has taken the lives of people with a weapon used SOLELY for Killing. Americans will never learn as long as their is money to be made by the cowards in the NRA and gun companies.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

SchopenhauerToday 07:15 am JST

There are many countries in the world where people can have guns but shooting incidents happen most often in the U.S.A. Why is that?

that's maybe because there are 393 million civilian-owned firearms in the United States, that's nearly 50% of the world firearms owned by civilian. And in lot of other countries, you can't casually buy an automatic or semi-automatic riffle... people use just own a shotgun for hunting.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@bigyen Thanks, but no worries. I'm not affected either way.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Sorry, that emotional argument it’s not going to work,

Please explain how my argument was emotional. You can't because it wasn't. Let's try having a bit of accuracy. I know your hyper-partisan tunnel vision prevents this, but please try.

> there is no way on this planet that guns are going to be taking away her that the second amendment will be repealed or even ratified, 

The Second Amendment was ratified a long time ago.

Nobody is claiming the Second Amendment will be repealed. Please stop arguing with the liberal you've created in your head.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Big question: was the shooter on meds for PTSD? We will not learn the answer, for the toxicology results will not be revealed -- Big Pharma will see to that.

I have a proposal. 1) Ban all discharged former US military personnel from purchasing and/or owning a gun -- too many PTSD-related mass shootings; and 2) Repeal the 2nd Amendment -- there aren't any more militias in the US, they ended 200-plus years ago.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Yeah. Why haven’t they memorized the manual on human mentality.

And where is this magical manual? Who wrote it?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

PTownsend and ChipStar,

Sorry, your downvotes came from me and weren't intended - I hit 'up' and got a 1-1 response.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Mass shootings are as American as apple pie and July 4th. Look for them to continue.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

TheFu:

The USA doesn't have mass shootings every other day. This is easily proven as false

You sure about that? Cause i think i've seen more reports about mass shootings on this website in the past few weeks than in the past 2 years

0 ( +1 / -1 )

This is guns country destiny. More tragedies would come in the future whatever, because of guns country.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

prossnip42 - You sure about that? Cause i think i've seen more reports about mass shootings on this website in the past few weeks than in the past 2 years

Positive. The number of stories doesn't map 1-for-1 to the number of events.

Follow the real data. This is a little harder because the term "mass shooting" means something different in different reports and the FBI doesn't track the category.

The FBI uses "Active Shooter" incidents.

In 2017, there were 30 active shooting incidents throughout the nation. A total of 138 were killed in the shootings, the first time a death toll has risen above 90 for a single year.

....

An active shooter is defined by the FBI as someone actively killing or attempting to kill people in a populated area. This data is not just mass shootings, which is the killing of three or more people. The data also doesn't include drug and gang-related shootings that appeared targeted.

That's from USA Today.

Rand https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/supplementary/mass-shootings.html says there were 371 "mass shootings" which include the shooter. So that averages out to 1.016 events per day. That isn't every other day. Being off by a factor of 2x isn't good.

If we take out gang related events (don't know why they bother), the numbers drop drastically to 65 mass shootings. The math ... that's 1 event every 5.61 days.

But the point is we should use real data when it is easily available.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

It's often said, "Guns don't kill people, people do." Can't deny that. But what kind of people go into a bar and shoot up a dozen people? Not being terribly technical about it, that person would have to be crazy, right? And not in a good way. The guy would have to be psychotic.

The people termed “mental health experts” in the above article, the psychiatrists, are those people in the society who are supposed to know about people's minds and who are supposed to be able to recognise and treat mental illness. They even call themselves doctors.

Yet they are totally incapable of recognising or treating mental illness. The article states, "The mental health experts out there cleared him that day." He was given a clean bill of health by these "mental health experts."

Supposing you were a racing driver and you had your car cleared for the race by "experts," then you took the car out and it fell to bits on the second lap. You would have something to say to the "experts," wouldn't you?

This is not an isolated case. The biggest percentage of this kind of mass shooting involves people who have been "treated" for mental illness or who are currently being and/or people who are on so called anti-psychotic drugs.

These mental "doctors" are not experts, they are fake.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

We have to stop spending on taking care of illegals and help our mentally ill.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

America is "Have gun and travel."

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

"The mental health experts out there cleared him that day," Dean told reporters Thursday, less than 12 hours after the Wednesday night massacre.

Why do they call these people "mental health experts" when they are totally incapable of spotting psychosis? An expert is a person who can actually DO something. Let alone not being able to do anything about this guy, these psychs couldn't even SPOT the condition.

Almost ALL of these cases where someone walks into a school or bar, etc., and shoots up a load of people are in the middle of psychiatric "treatment," discharged from a mental health facility as "cured," and/or on psychiatric drugs.

It's about time psychiatry was recognised for the quackery it is.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

Simple : other countries have far less guns and much more restrictions, so they don't have mass shootings every other day.

The USA doesn't have mass shootings every other day. This is easily proven as false.

goldorak : but you gotta start somewhere.

I can agree on that.

We need to follow the data, not the emotions. For example, rifles, including assault variants, are not the primary firearm used in homicides.

According to the FBI stats, knives kill far more people than rifles. In 2014, knives were used 6.3x more often than rifles.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls is newer data. Handguns were used in 64% of the homicides in 2016. Rifles in 3.4% in the same year.

Regardless of the firearm, kids shouldn't have access to any handgun without direct parent approval. Gun safes and trigger locks, need to be required by law for all handguns. Gun safes are required by law for certain firearms already, BTW.

Let's follow the data as we seek solutions. Hysterics won't get to a solution. Follow the data.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

Until I see the NRA and its membership propose measures to reach 'a middle ground' (How'd the restrictions on bump stocks turn out?),

Personally I think this should be banned and they should be a middle ground on it so I’ll give you credit on that and I’m with you on that one.

for example by working with those who actually want to take steps to limit gun violence instead of demonizing them,

I also agree

until I see the politicians intimidated by the NRA and its membership willing to take steps to limit gun violence, I'll assume y'all are just going to continue to say shoganai and blame mental health. Which you know you're unwilling to provide more money for. Again, thank the right's Ronald Reagan for starting the programs to cut spending for mental health.

Well, on that last part I think Reagan did make a monumental mistake with that, had he not gone that route, I think much of this could have been avoided.

Start by banning ALL semi-automatic weapons for all civilians. Police must enforce existing laws re converting semi-automatics to fully automatic, enforce the no big-magazine laws, the courts must stop wrist slapping violators of existing gun laws, among others. 

Not unreasonable request.

And further tax all purchases of guns and ammo with funds to be earmarked to finance the costs of gun massacres.

On that one, I have to vehemently disagree with you, but on everything else, I think there is room to come to some viable agreement.

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

Realistically, there is no solution that will guarantee no shootings in the US, or any other country for that matter. SO, how to decrease gun crime? There are two approaches- one concerning the weapons and one concerning the humans.

Banning semiautomatic weapons is a non starter. The vast majority of firearms in the US are semiautomatic, so that would be a de facto gun ban. Best of luck getting any change to the Second Amendment passed. Other than that, any small changes in law (assault weapon bans, large capacity magazine bans) are basically meaningless. They only allow politicians to crow about 'doing something' while not actually doing anything.

I would say that national licensing and safety requirements would be a good start. Having a patchwork of laws from state to state is ridiculous. Second, vastly higher funding for mental health care for people in need. Perhaps even involuntary commitment to mental hospitals in extreme cases, where recommended by physicians.

Still, overall gun crime and violent crime in general is way down from twenty or thirty years ago- at historic lows really. So there is no need to panic about these tragic events that make headlines, but do not reflect the reality of the situation.

-9 ( +0 / -9 )

Yes, it is.

No, it’s not.

No, it can't.

Yes, it can

These are naked assertions with no supporting evidence from someone who has repeatedly demonstrated a lack of ability to research and think logically.

Sorry, that emotional argument it’s not going to work, there is no way on this planet that guns are going to be taking away her that the second amendment will be repealed or even ratified, it’s just not going to happen and if any liberal think so then they are setting themselves up for a very, very big disappointment, it just won’t happen, but the Democrats can try to do whatever they can and really lose votes in they can lose the house over this again, which is fine by me, they know it’s a lose, lose issue and won’t touch it, they can come up with middle ground solutions, but if they want to kill any chances of gaining more power, attack the second amendment, go ahead.

-12 ( +1 / -13 )

Chip S - If everyone in the US didn't have such easy access to firearms, we wouldn't have to worry as much about people with mental health issues having such easy access to firearms.

If we can't solve 12M illegal immigrants walking around the USA, what makes you think we can solve 300M firearms, inside homes and businesses that 90% of the owners won't give up?

The time where it may have been possible has passed 80 yrs ago.

What is a realistic solution?

A marine who wants to kill KNOWS how to kill. Access to a firearm just makes it easier, but having no access wouldn't stop it.

-14 ( +1 / -15 )

PTSD...Divorce, result, suicide by cop. Not all people suffering take this route, and thankfully so, and it doesn't justify the actions, but HOPEFULLY this will turn a very bright light on the men and women in the armed forces, and those that have gotten out too, regarding the pain and suffering they are going through with PTSD.

PTSD is a very serious problem and it seems it was to some extent addressed, but there is room for improvement and a middle ground that can be reached, taking guns away and placing the blame on guns is not the issue and is a losing argument that can be beaten every time, but there are things that we can do from strengthening soft targets, arming security guards, have medical and mental weekly evaluation, better monitoring especially if it is proven you are more volatile, then you should not be allowed to purchase, carry or have any firearms in your home. Emotions won’t solve this issue, solutions and a middle ground will.

-17 ( +2 / -19 )

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