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Canadian teenager cries in Gitmo interrogation video

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A sobbing Canadian teenager begged for help as he was questioned in the first video glimpse of interrogations at the U.S. "war on terror" prison at Guantanamo Bay released Tuesday.

The video was posted online by attorneys for terror suspect Omar Khadr, who is shown being questioned at the prison by Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) agents in February, 2003.

Khadr is the youngest detainee at Guantanamo, accused of killing a U.S. soldier in a firefight in Afghanistan.

He has been held at the U.S. naval facility in eastern Cuba since his arrest in 2002, when he was 15 years old, and faces a U.S. military commission on terrorism charges in October.

"Help me, help me, help me," Khadr says repeatedly for 20 minutes in the video, weeping, holding his head in his hands.

The footage covers seven and a half hours of questioning over four days. It depicts a dejected young man, tense from the pang of injuries suffered in a brush with U.S. soldiers six months earlier.

In one excerpt, Khadr tugs at his hair, and pulls his orange prisoner suit over his head to show his interrogator his battle scars.

"I lost my eyes. I lost my feet. Everything," he wails.

The U.S. government alleges Khadr was the lone survivor of a four-hour U.S. bombardment of an al-Qaida compound in Afghanistan in 2002, who rose from the rubble and killed a U.S. sergeant with a grenade.

Khadr's U.S. lawyer, Lieutenant-Commander Bill Kuebler, instead described him to a Canadian Commons committee as a "frightened, wounded, 15-year-old boy ... who sat slumped against a bush while a battle raged around him."

During the melee, Khadr was shot at least twice in the back by U.S. soldiers. He is said to have no vision in one eye, and sight in the other is deteriorating because of shrapnel embedded in the eye membrane.

"You look like you're doing well to me," the interrogator says in the video, his face blurred. "I'm not a doctor but I think you're getting good medical care."

"You say this is healthy?" Khadr asks. "I can't move my arm."

"No, you still have your eyes, and your feet are still at the ends of your legs," the interrogator replies, urging him to cooperate.

"You don't care about me," Khadr tells the interrogator. "Nobody cares about me."

An eight-minute video was initially posted on the Internet and a complete version on five DVDs was issued later on Tuesday by Khadr's lawyers, following a Canadian court order.

In the video, apparently shot through the flaps of a ventilation shaft, Khadr is asked what he knows about al-Qaida and questioned about his Islamic faith.

At one point, an interrogator tries to calm Khadr, who is clearly distraught, saying he needs to get a "bite to eat" and adding: "I understand this is stressful."

When Khadr complains his compatriots have not helped his case and says he just wants to return home, the interrogator replies: "We can't do anything for you."

The video shows no beating or physical abuse of Khadr.

But his Canadian lawyer Nathan Whitling said U.S. authorities "manipulated Omar's environment outside the interrogation room before Canadian interrogations to induce cooperation within the interrogation room," citing documents released last week.

According to the files from the Foreign Intelligence Division of Canada's Foreign Affairs department, Khadr was forcibly sleep deprived by his U.S. captors to soften him up for questioning by CSIS agents.

The documents also said that after Canadian officials met with Khadr in March 2004, he was due to be placed in isolation for three weeks before being interviewed again.

A Canadian federal judge studying the documents said Khadr's treatment violated international laws on human rights, and ordered them released to Khadr's lawyers last month.

Human rights groups and Canada's opposition parties have since demanded Khadr be released from Guantanamo, saying his age at the time of capture precludes any war crime proceeding.

Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper said earlier this month he would not ask the U.S. government to repatriate Khadr. His office maintained that position Tuesday.

"It's time for this travesty to stop, and for Omar Khadr to come home to Canada to face justice under Canadian law," said Whitling.

"This kid has suffered enough. This kid needs to come home. This kid is not a terrorist," echoed Dennis Edney, another of Khadr's lawyers.

© Wire reports

©2019 GPlusMedia Inc.

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I wonder if this four hour bombardment was the retaking of that prison compound, if so he was darned lucky to make it out alive.

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So uhh wait... what was he doing in Afghanistan again? And on top of that, a volatile area? He's a Canadian citizen, where are his parents? Were they in Afghanistan too, or in Canada?

How can you be caught in a dangerous area in the first place?

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Notice the video was also taken in 2003... and they haven't mentioned why the boy was in Afghanistan in the first place. That would kind of help wouldn't it? I'd be able to sympathise more if this little question was answered first.

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what was the boy doing in al-Qaida compound if not for the sake of his peaceful faith?!

the boy got this lawyer, but many prisoner of war captivated by al-Qaida got throat cut alive.

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What was a 15 year old Canadian boy doing in Afghanistan?!

It's so sad, a boy of his age should have been back in his home and native land playing hockey and eating kraft dinner.

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What an embarrassment for Canada.

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I don't really think it matters that he was in a dangerous area. I think what matters is that his location was under bombardment--and was under bombardment continuously for 4 hours. Those around him were dead.

Put yourself in his position. Would you expect that the advancing Americans were inclined to show you mercy? Or would you think that the battle was continuing?

As I understand it, he is charged with murder. How can this possibly be murder? How can you possibly murder an advancing armed combatant whose forces have been destroying all life and property around you?

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another Canadian teenager gone awry. Why can't Canada keep these kids in school and out of trouble? And where were the parents?

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What a biased article. The poor, abused, patently innocent little teenager being abused by the evil imperialist Americans. Could we get similar touching descriptions for the victims of jihadists? For the people flown into the WTC? For those beheaded on video? For that matter for the guy he blew to pieces with his grenade? Fat chance.

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SezWho2, you're missing the point. What was he doing there? Certain things need to be clarified before we can just go jumping in blindly to his defense. You can't be in a certain place without a reason, we just need to know why and what that reason was. Was he with his parents, was he visiting relatives? None of that information is shown.

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Remember the old saying, "You're known by the company you keep". Don't hang out with gang members if you don't want a police officer to suspect you are a gang member.

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He was 15 when taken. What was he doing in Afghanistan fighting?

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Would you expect that the advancing Americans were inclined to show you mercy?" If it was the other way around, would he have shown mercy or would he have simply cut a few heads off?

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Let him sob. He chose his profession. Soldier at 15 in Afgahnistan. Wanna fight better be prepared for the consequences.

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His father was a nutty terrorist that basically brainwashed his kids and took them along into his dark life. I think his father was killed or killed himself but his mother and sister live in suburbia somewhere around Toronto. hmm How do they support themselves? The charges against him seem sort of trumped up as at first they said it had to have been him that tossed the grenade because he was the only one left alive but as it turned out there was at least one other guy still fighting. I feel for the kid because if he had not been raised by nutty parents he probaly would have never been involved in fighting Canada's best friend. How much blame can you put on a kid who's brain is not fully developed and has been brainwashed by terrorists?

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How much blame can you put on a kid who's brain is not fully developed and has been brainwashed by terrorists?"

So what do you suggest? I am sure when they took him, they may have not realized how young he was. They can't just put the guy back in school, where he belonged mind you, nor can they just let him go sending a message that its ok to recruit young people because they would just let them go.

Besides, I don't really consider 15 to be too much of a kid. Most people are getting it on at that age. Old enough for that, so hey.

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The video upset Michelle and I.If I could have just reached through the ventilator and given that young man a fist bump,perhaps I could communicate to him the message,uhhhhhh,that it won't always be like this.It won't always be so hard on those who we have locked up,down in the state of Cuba.

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Put yourself in his position.

Sure. Let me check on plane tickets, and if you would be so kind as to get information on how I can start traveling with the Taliban in Afghanistan then I should be able to put myself in his position.

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I don't agree. Most armies like 18-19 year old recruits because they are easy to train, easy to control and best of all they follow orders without thinking. His father dragged him over there and he was stuck with his "uncles." What would you do if you had just turned 15 and your father had dragged you over there and left you in the care of other nutters and not a dollar in your pocket. Probably you would just follow along with whatever your "uncles" told you to do. That said, what do you do with him? I guess ideally he would be handed over to Canada and go through the criminal justice system and be rehabilitated. The trouble with that is that Canada's youth justice system is too lax and Canadians are clamoring to toughen up the punishments so Canadians don't want him back.

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When child soldiers pop up in places like Sudan, Congo and Burma fighting for and against 'rebel' forces, we're told the children are innocent and the people who recruited/coerced them to fight are guilty of war crimes. When the same thing happens in a place where the big boys are playing, suddenly it's the kid who's at fault. Nice double standards there.

A child soldier is any person under the age of 18 who is a member of or attached to government armed forces or any other regular or irregular armed force or armed political group

(By this definition, the US, UK, Canada, France and Germany all use child soldiers, too. But that's different, of course.)

http://www.child-soldiers.org/childsoldiers/questions-and-answers

Why was the interview filmed through the flaps of a ventilation shaft? Why not just rig the camera up in a corner of the room?

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He's a Prisoner of War folks. 15 or 25 and he deserves the full protection of the Geneva Convention. He wsasn't looking around for a US soldier to kill, he was involved in a combat operation and he was fighting to survive.

This is where george buish helped out the US soldier. he pulled us out of the ICC so that deaths due to the war in Iraq wouldn't be under the authority of the ICC.

But this kid was fighting for his life. Now he has to be survive a court of military law to see if he's going to receive the death penalty. This is ludicris. < :-)

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Nice post cleo, spot on. Double standards anyone?

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cleo: sorry, but I disagree and I don't care what laws says different. if a 15 year old kid were to hit me, I ain't gonna wait for the police to do something. 15 is a man in my book, mostly because he is from North America, not some impoverished land. A suburban brat to say the least. All this 18 year old crap is something recent. When my father's parents first went to the US, they were both 13 and 14 and working 12 or more hours a day to feed themselves, married by the time she was 16 and he 17 and then went fought wars in Nicaragua. Old enough to sow your oats, you are old enough to fight, old enough to do time for your crime. That Juvey crap is bull!

Aday: where does it say he faces such a sentence? Fighting for his life? could have been a lot worse, don't you think? We are talking about Afghanistan, not Iraq! How in the hell do you put blame on GWB?

rjd: "Double standards anyone?" Yeah, they go and catch an American soldier, hang him up, cut some heads off, dismembered some and they get what aday points out - fighting for their lives, they aren't bad. Even praised. Double standard, yeah because had he made it out of there, you know he would have been considered a "brave young man"!

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He's a Prisoner of War folks. 15 or 25 and he deserves the full protection of the Geneva Convention. He wsasn't looking around for a US soldier to kill, he was involved in a combat operation and he was fighting to survive.

But this kid was fighting for his life. Now he has to be survive a court of military law to see if he's going to receive the death penalty. This is ludicris.

He should be held like any other POW and not under the threat of a trial. < :-)

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I think there is another side to this story.Uhhh,the notion that Canada can send child soldiers into firefights,for the oil in Afghanistan,is wrong. It's wrong on many,many levels.

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"killed a U.S. sergeant with a grenade"

What's the normal punishment for murder for a 15 year old?

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All this 18 year old crap is something recent. When my father's parents first went to the US, they were both 13 and 14 and working 12 or more hours a day to feed themselves, married by the time she was 16 and he 17 and then went fought wars in Nicaragua. Old enough to sow your oats, you are old enough to fight, old enough to do time for your crime.

Yes, people grew up earlier (they had to) back then. We supposedly live in more enlightened times.

I'm not sure what sex has to do with this, but what makes you think this 15-year-old has been sowing his oats? And how does that affect his guilt or otherwise with respect to fighting in Afghanistan? In Africa girl 'soldiers' barely out of puberty are 'enlisted' to 'serve' the fighting men. Would you say that they deserve all they get because they're old enough to accommodate a man? Or again is that different because they're not from North America?

Yeah, they go and catch an American soldier, hang him up, cut some heads off, dismembered some...

Again, any reason to believe that this boy was involved in any cutting off of heads? Or do you approve of the notion of group responsibility, whereby (eg) all Americans are equally responsible for what happened in Abu Ghraib? Or is that different, too?

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Again agree with cleo, this kid had nothing to do with cutting off heads or any other atrocities. Of course those kinds of brutality are unacceptable but this case isn't anything to do with that.

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if this kid would have gotten an iPhone he would have never joined the league of terror. I blame Steve Jobs for/and the limited supply of iPhones. I also blame the crook Kanadian cell companies = and you thought SoftBank was bad !!

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Why won't Canada take him back?

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Cleo: allow me to clarify. I did not mean to imply that he has cut any heads off but I was implying that had the shoe been on the other foot, as we have seen/witnessed, that should a soldier get caught in that area, what happens. Would he or wouldn't he participated forced/non-forced was not meant to be my case. What I was trying to point out is he was fighting against a force. Whether or not it was voluntary is not known, but what is one suppose to think? There are two sides in this conflict, take away right and wrong, you against him. What are you suppose to think?

Why should he get any special treatment is because of his age goes the argument. I don't think he should. Some say he didn't do what he is accused of others have said he did, I don't I wasn't there, but he is on the other side and that is how the game is played. Haven't you ever had a problem with someone and then perhaps kick his brother down?

Do I approve in group responsibility? No I don't these days, but let's face, most people do. When you see one of my kind on the news, everyone goes back to Scarface. When a KKK group kills a black kid, you know all whites are to blame. When a white kid is ambushed on a city bus, you know all blacks are bad. I don't like that thinking at all, but that is just how people, when in our groups, think for the most part in times of crises.

Sarge, you state the kids committed murder... I don't think that is the case. It is a war and really isn't killing as many on the other side the goal?

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Apparently,the young man has his own websight,probably so he can fight the smears.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr

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I would say all of us would act the same given the same treatment and time-frame.

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And how does he put it up and maintain it from Gitmo without access to a PC. Some people really need an injection of real-life.

That don't mean I am pro or con him.

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Zen: the article doesn't say, but how did people get a hold of this video. I wasn't aware they (the US) was releasing interrogation vids to the public. Why only 2003?

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Skip: Cleo's got you beat down, bud, and you have contradicted yourself at least twice in your 'arguments'

"Why should he get any special treatment is because of his age goes the argument."

Well, according to you, none..... 'ESPECIALLY if he/she is from a non-impoverished nation', a statement which in and of itself shows favouritism, now doesn't it (that's before you go on an unrelated diatribe about the sufferings of your Cuban family).

Anyway, just cut it with the double standards, eh, mate? Just because a kid comes from a nation that is not impoverished, if you think all people deserve fair treatment, then don't make an exception. I don't agree with you either way, but at least you wouldn't be contradicting yourself.

Regardless of what results of this, the kid deserves a fair trial, IN CANADA! It needs to be proven that he was fighting among AQ and not just a kid hiding in the bush. If he was, and saw troops coming after him, it's like skip said, "Would you just let someone come up and hit you?" No, he saw a US soldier coming to finish him off (in his mind) and so he defended himself, as skip admitted he would do. If he was part of AQ in this, then give him an appropriate trial and an adequate result. This is the same for all in Guantanemo, and one of the problems of the place.... no one gets a trial until ages after they've been locked up, in many cases for nothing more than mere suspicion.

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This is the offical word:

The lawyers for Omar Khadr, now 21 and still at Guantanamo, released the 10-minute 2003 segment on the Internet early Tuesday before releasing about eight hours of interrogation footage in Edmonton, Alberta, in the afternoon.

This is straight from CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/07/15/gitmo.tapes/index.html

Same can be found on BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7507216.stm

Personally I wouldn't read too much into it.

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HonestDictator.

With respect, I think you are missing the point. It doesn't matter why he was there. No one can murder a soldier who is attacking them.

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SuperLib,

Let me know, when you have an unsnarky moment, how that search for plane tickets is going. Otherwise if you are incapable of putting yourself in this young man's position, just say so.

Even if he were a terrorist, this is not murder.

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I really just don't get it. The child soldiers's webpage says Amnesty International,UNICEF,the Canadian Bar Association and other prominent organizations feel it would be best if he were brought back to Canada.But the government won't accept him.Is it because of his religion? That's not the Canada I know!

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The wiki entry (which is not 'his own websight', Alinsky4prez) is a pretty horrific read.

After using rocket-propelled grenades, rifle-fire, helicopter cannon, rocket fire and 82 bombs, the Americans went in and one of them saw Khadr crouched on his knees facing away from the action and wounded by shrapnel that had just permanently blinded his left eye,[29] and shot him twice in the back.

Is that what they teach American soldiers to do? To shoot injured children in the back?

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cleo: I went to wiki as well. We all know wiki, as of late, is not the best source of info any longer. One day you will see his piece standing for him and the next day, it will against him.

We may never know the truth, we can only go off our gut feelings.

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Sez-Don't ever recall saying the boy murdered anyone. I just wanted to know WHY he was their to be caught up in such a situation. The boy was captured as an enemy combatant. The blame lies on the father that took him there to indoctrinate him in his own footsteps. The lawyers for him are doing their job trying to victimize the boy (which is true to a degree thanks to his fathers probaby forceful influence).

Sad state of affairs but those are the breaks, life isn't nice and people aren't nice. Canada says they have no plans to repatriatize him either? Thats interestingly odd.

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I think we need to ask why the Canadian government let a child go to a war zone. It's not a pretty picture,when you add that to all that surplus oil they sell,keeping us addicted to our SUVs,and our yachts,and our private jets.Don't folks in Canada care about peace,and the environment?

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smitty: You calling me out? If you have anything against me I could care less.

Of course I have double standards in my argument, simply because I haven't made a decision on what I would do with him because I am not there, I am here. And yes, I don't pity some 15 year Ipod/Iphone chat room kid who finds himself in a dire situation where as if he had been directly from that area, I probably would have given him a pass. That is just the way it works for me and you can go screw your blancito self for all I care. I have read your posts enough to know where you stubbornly sit without ever budging from your position regardless if facts show you differently.

how does Cleo show me when I am not even really arguing him? Seems to me you trying to instigate something. That my friend is not cool and it is very unwise had you not been sitting behind a computer.

Why does he deserve a fair trial in Canada? That's a double standard. Now, since you feel so strongly that he is innocent of not being a combatant, why don't you show me up so much and lay the facts out on the table. And please tell us why he should be given a pass when people his age in other wars were POWs up until the end of those said wars namely Japanese, Germans, Italians and on the other side allied countries. Didn't POWs in the Philipeans remain there, taken in 42, until around the time of surrender of Japan? Face it, you only want to give him a pass because he is not a north American, like yourself, which leaves me and a few others who I read along side with, a self hating fool!

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superlib,

Don't you think this in an embarasment to the US, too? They are afterall operating this torture Gulag outside of international law.

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Regardless of what results of this, the kid deserves a fair trial, IN CANADA!

The US can't release him to Canada. The Canadian government refuses to take him. Instead they are helping with the torture gulag.

This is similar to the story of Maher Arar, a Canadian who was arrested in the US at the request of the Canadian government. He was then flown to Syria and tortured. You also have reports of Canadian soldiers capturing enemies in Afghanistan and handing them over to Afghan authorities for torture. I will give it to the Canuks....they are aces at plausible deniability.

I guess Canada will now have to add itself to their own "Torture Watch List," next to America and Israel. The hypocrisy is astounding.

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"The hypocrisy is astounding."

It is indeed mate. I thought you at least would denounce the US's use of torture in its' Gulag, you having supported invasions for humanitarian reasons and all.

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HonestDictator,

I don't recall saying that you said that Khadr murdered anyone. I recall saying that the US military accuses him of murder and I recall expressing my opinion that the allegation is preposterous.

I agree that the father seems responsible for putting him in harm's way and for indoctrinating him into a militant version of jihad, but that seems to me to be very much beside the point of whether or not it's possible for a wounded combatant (or non-combatant) to murder a single member of an attacking force.

Canada says it has no plans to request his repatriation. I say there's no need to give Canada the option. Return him to Canada and let Canada deal with the problem.

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indoctrinating him into a militant version of jihad" Funny, I thought the whole idea behind Jihad was militant. Wasn't aware of any other versions.

Canada says it has no plans to request his repatriation. I say there's no need to give Canada the option. Return him to Canada and let Canada deal with the problem" Hmm, if he took up arms against Canada, why should they welcome him back? Of course, depending on how you look at the situation.

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Maybe if Canada weren't trying to force democracy through the barrel of a gun in Afghanistan, they wouldn't have this problem. Ever hear of diplomacy?

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skipthesong,

I don't think jihad is essentially militant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

Why should Canada welcome him back? I don't think they'll give him a parade, but he is a Canadian citizen.

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Superlib, just to confirm your position;

Saddam henchman torturing Iraqi's in the Gulag = bad.

The US and Canada torturing suspects (even a child) in the Gulag = good.

Is that right?

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Khadr I don't care about you and if the CSIS officers given access to you don't either you are correct no one cares about you. Questions to be answered: why was this 15 year old on a battlfield in Afghanistan in the first place, did his parents put him up to it? How did he get there from Canada? I feel no more sympathy for this kid than I did for John Walker Lind but I suspect being that Khadr is too young to have travelled on his own that we may want to talk to his family as well.

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USAexpat,

His parents, or what passed for them, are responsible. This kid was fifteen when he got shot in the back twice, blinded and then tortured whilst being held without trial by the US.

I'm not the kind of person that endorses this kind of disgraceful behaviour, and I don't think most Americans are either. Though one wouldn't think so reading some of the comments on here...

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Well,I guess that we can say that Canada is officially some kind of a rogue nation.They invited the child soldier's father to their country,even though he misunderstood jihad,violently.But now they diss us all by refusing to take back the son.The injustice covers thousands and thousands of miles-it goes all the way from Afghanistan to Taronto to Cuba!

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I would agree that his parents are to blame but as for his being shot in the back it's a direct result of being in a combat zone. I think Gitmo needs to be closed and I think all of the prisoners are entitled to trials with representation. The worst thing that the Bush administration has done is not Iraq or domestic spying or any of the other misguided policies, it's in evading our own justice system when dealing with these detainees. The USA is first and foremost a country of laws, when we don't follow our own laws we lose credibilty. That said my point was that I can't feel much sympathy if he was actively fighting with the Taliban. Brainwashed he may have been but he was where he was and that can't be ignored. He certainly isn't the only child soldier in the world one only needs to look to the various conflicts in Africa. If Canada wants him back and they will try him under the Canadian justice code for whatever they deem his crimes to be I say the US needs to return him.

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Well,I guess that we can say that Canada is officially some kind of a rogue nation.

Spot on, mate. My Canadian friends are already too embarrassed to say where they're from.

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Boo hoo, he's crying in the video. Its totally not his fault he was attending a terrorist training camp. Totally not his fault he was shot, not his fault he threw a grenade killing a soldier. Yep, I feel so much pity for the guy. After all they have it all on video, him being tortured right. Interrogators just torturing him repeatedly by talking to him. Oooh, scary! </sarcasm> Too many bleeding hearted idiots on this board.

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The "bleeding hearted idiots" would seem to be necessary to balance out the thick-headed idiots.

"Responsibility" is the key word here, not "fault". I don't think anyone has ever said that he was not ultimately responsible for being where he was. People have claimed, however, that he was not the one who threw the grenade and that any claims he may have made to have done so were extracted under torture for which no videos were made. And people have claimed that when you are under attack it is not murder to fight back.

In general the "bleeding hearted idiots" are in favor of small niceties like habeas corpus, assurances that no confessions were extracted under torturous conditions and open access to legal council. When those conditions do not exist, we have a system of incarceration that is every bit as bad as the gulag. The reason that the thick-headed idiots imagine that this is necessary does not excuse us from a moral crime which is greater than that which Khadr is accused of.

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well said, SezWho2

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"His parents, or what passed for them, are responsible"

Sure, blame the parents! LOL!

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This is a clear cut case of Canada creating more misunderstanders of Islam. They should repatriate the child soldier they let go off to war. He needs to be tried in Canada.

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Uh, sarge - yes, I blame the parents. If his father hadn't indoctrinated him, and then taken him as a 15 year old to Afghanistan, he wouldn't have been there.

But I'm sure you support the torture without trial.

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Adverts - I'll admit his father wasn't exactly a good role model. But his father didn't put the grenade that killed that U.S. soldier in his hand.

"uh, sarge"

( Sigh ) You know what that gets you, don't you, Madverts? Madverts, I'm laughing at the superior intellect.

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The kid was shot twice in the back by one of Uncle Sam's boys after 4 hours of being bombarded by rocket fired grenades, rifle-fire, helicopter cannon, rocket fire and 82 bombs all topped off with a piece of shrapnel in the eye. Maybe he can be allowed one measly grenade.

That's assuming he did throw the grenade, and for that we only have the word of people who think it's OK to shoot blind teenage boys in the back and then submit them to years of solitary confinement, sleep deprivation and heaven only knows what else.

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So has Canada taken the child soldier back yet?Is there a update?I'm confident that the video of the boy,reduced to tears after being tortured by the Canadian operatives,must have shamed his government into action.

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Cleo - "Maybe he can be allowed one measly grenade"

That "measly" grenade took the life of a brave soldier who was fighting for your right to say that kid should be forgiven.

Madverts - "there were witnesses denying the boy threw a grenade"

Yeah, and there are witnesses who say he did throw it.

"a fair trial without torture"

Yeah, he'll get it. More than one of our soldiers can expect from the Islamic extremists.

"those with superior intellect"

Who, you?

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"Has Canada taken the child soldier back yet?"

Heck, they don't want him.

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"Yeah, he'll get it."

No, sarge, he's already been tortured in the US Gulag. And he's been held for years without trial, against fundemental American principles, whilst being tortured in captivity.

Again, I'm sorry to see you shoulder to shoulder with the shared "principles" of despotic dictatorships, and of course, Islamic terrorists...

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Mad - "he's already been tortured"...

Do you have some proof of that?

"... in the US Gulag"

Are you equating having a dog bark at you at Club Gitmo with what the Soviets did to their prisoners at theoir penal labor camps? Pathetic.

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I don't disagree with the facts that questionable forms of interrogation are being used at Gitmo, but I really don't think you can compare it to a gulag. That's just hyperbole.

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RepublicofTexas,

As far as Guantanamo and the gulag are concerned, I'd give you exaggeration. I wouldn't give you extravagant exaggeration. Guantanamo is a black hole and it's only the deducible part of what we are doing.

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sarge - all civilized countries, including in America requires the proof to be submitted by the accuser, in a court of law.

And we civilized people don't torture other human beings to get confessions.

Again, I'm saddened to see you so willingly stoop the level of the evil-doers.

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That "measly" grenade took the life of a brave soldier who was fighting for your right to say that kid should be forgiven.

Was he as brave as the brave soldier who shot a blind and bleeding teenager twice, in the back?

If the situation had been reversed you'd be telling us about the brave soldier who, under intense fire and in the face of overwhelming odds and overcoming excruciating injuries somehow found the strength to hurl one last heroic grenade at the enemy before being taken down by a vile murdering militant-from-hell.

The kid was taken to Afghanistan by his parents, in particular his father. He was where he was because his father put him there, not because he made any decision to leave Canada to go and kill Americans in Afghanistan. There is no evidence (apart from the word of the brave soldiers) that he threw the grenade or took any part in the fighting. I know Wiki isn't the gospel written in stone, but the article on the boy claims that In February 2008, the Pentagon accidentally released documents that revealed that although Khadr was present during the firefight, there was no other evidence that he had thrown the grenade. In fact, military officials had originally reported that another of the surviving militants had thrown the grenade just before being killed; and I don't see how in this instance Wiki is any more or less believable than the claims of the US soldiers involved in the fight.

If this boy had been picked up off a battle field in say the Sudan instead of Afghanistan, he probably wouldn't have two holes in his body and instead of being incarcerated, tortured and prosecuted he would have been rehabilitated, given schooling, psychosocial counselling and vocational training.

http://www.unicef.org/newsline/01pr22.htm

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Was he as brave as the brave soldier who shot a blind and bleeding teenager twice, in the back?

I wasn't there or anything obviously, but I doubt that the soldier knew he was a "child", after all it was a chaotic war-zone.

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Cleo - your wasting your time dear.

"Do what I say, not what I do" is afterall a Republican slogan, right after "I have a wide stance in the bathroom".

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after all it was a chaotic war-zone

-- where people do things like throwing grenades at the enemy. So how come he's being charged with murder and terrorism? If they want to treat him as an adult, why isn't he being treated like a regular prisoner of war, which is what you're supposed to do with people you capture on the battlefield?

If he'd lobbed a grenade into a crowded cafe in downtown Kabul, or chucked it into a crowded bus in Kandahar, that would be terrorism. But throwing a grenade at a soldier coming to shoot him, on the battlefield, in the middle of an engagement? That's what happens in war, isn't it? (Assuming of course that he did throw it, and we don't know that he did.)

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[People have claimed, however, that he was not the one who threw the grenade and that any claims he may have made to have done so were extracted under torture for which no videos were made.] [all civilized countries, including in America requires the proof to be submitted by the accuser, in a court of law. And we civilized people don't torture other human beings to get confessions.]

But the liberal crowd does not require proof of their accusations that this case actually involved torture. They just think it so it's true!! No proof necessary!!

[Was he as brave as the brave soldier who shot a blind and bleeding teenager twice, in the back?] Shot in the back twice and not killed? Wow either that is pure incompetence or pure political correctness getting into todays modern killers mind. How not to kill after 2 shots to the back!! incompetence or skill? you be the judge people? who needs proof of anything?

[Cleo - your wasting your time dear."Do what I say, not what I do" is afterall a Republican slogan, right after "I have a wide stance in the bathroom".]

yeah and believe what I believe not what is fact is pure liberal idiot 'bleedin heart' prose. No proof necessary. a liberal slogan right after: "conspiracies are true until proven wrong so they are right right right!! Where's your proof they are wrong? huh? toot..toot! "

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I must add. I was having a bad day until I read this thread. I'd especially like to thank Alinsky4prez. I think I know who you are.... and thanks for the laugh. good on ya mate. oh and honoralble mention to smitty.

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One doesn't have to be a bleeding heart to understand that the crime of which Khadr is accused does not meet the test of reasonableness.

As for whether he was tortured or not, nearly 6 years of incarceration without trial, most of them without access to rights of habeas corpus appeal is torture in itself. More brutal and physical torture may not have been employed, but the tragedy of Guantanamo for the United States is that it is no longer given that it has not.

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No, sarge, he's already been tortured in the US Gulag. And he's been held for years without trial, against fundemental American principles, whilst being tortured in captivity.

You have to understand, people here equate talking with people as torture. I know, I do empathize. Talking with some people for me is like torture. Still, its not like he was put on the rack, or given the thumbscrews. Now if he underwent what McCain did, and so many others, at the Hanoi Hilton, then, you guys might have room to make an argument.

But here is the fundamental problem. When does is murder, murder. At what age, do we have to accept responsibility for our own actions, even if we're influenced by poor role models? He chose to be there, and he chose to throw the grenade. Thats what it really comes down to here.

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"US Gulag", EmVee?

I think you should understand the terminology you just employed, or were you bein' dramatic.

I runs with the latter. Drama is entertainment, too.

USAR

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USAramen,

A gulag is a Gulag. Being held indefinitely and being tortured has all the hallmarks of a Gulag to me.

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I agree.

Lets also remember that the "concentration camps" were invented during the US Civil War.

Don't believe me check the historical records. They were-reused during the boer-war and gained fame during WW II.

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He chose to be there,

Did he? Or was he taken there by his Dad?

and he chose to throw the grenade.

That's not what the initial report by the soldiers on the ground said. They said they killed the one who threw the grenade.

But even if he did throw a grenade, since when was trying to defend yourself in a war, a 'war crime'? What makes him (apart from his age) any different from any other POW?

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It looks like the Canadian child-soldier has updated the web page of his Afghanistan Home Stay adventure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Omar_Khadr_getting_battlefield_first_aid.jpg

Why won't Canada take him back? Is it - - it must be because of his religion.

That's NOT the Canada I know!

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USAR -

Does being refused pain medication for his wounds, having his hands tied above a door frame for hours, having cold water thrown on him, having a bag placed over his head, being threatened with military dogs, being forced to carry 5-gallon pails of water to aggravate his shoulder wound and not being allowed to use washrooms so that he was forced to urinate on himself come before, during or after the homework and the veggies?

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USAR read your own history, it is all there.

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USAR -

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v02/v02p137_Weber.html

Read.

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USAramen,

Torture is torture. It's against the American way. Holding people without trial is in the same boat.

Guantanamo is a Gulag. America's Gulag. Deal with it bud.

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USAR.

Hint: Anderson prison camp.

Just because the term came afterwards don't mean it didn't exist.

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"USAR read your own history, it is all there."

So when I ask you what you're talkin' about when you say the US "invented concentration camps" durin' our American Civil War that was all a bluff?

OK.

USAR

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EmVee, I have considered it.

I know what a "gulag" is, and I know what constitutes "torture".

If he hadn't been on a battlefield killin' Allied soldiers, you and I wouldn't even be discussin' this.

I'll bet he wishes he could re-do his life over. That "be a jihad warrior" and kill all of Islam's enemies in the West didn't work out well for him.

Now he's in court... as you wanted.

USAR

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Cleo, and now the Allies will present their case in the real world just as you will present his to us in the cyber-world.

Thank you.

USAR

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USAR.

NOT a bluff. For a long time it was considered the brits for the boer-war, till the civil war records were closely examined.

Yes, the Germans NEVER invented it, they might have perfected it the honour for invention goes to the USA.

I would LOVE you to show me proof to the contrary.

I called you out on a few occasions to show counter-proof so far zilch, nada, nothing, nichts, zero.

You talk big and make big statements but never back them up. I told you about anderson prison camp and you got nothing to say about it.

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"Now he's in court... as you wanted."

After years of imprisonment without trial and being tortured. That's so un-patriotic and against the American way, you could be hugging a terrorist sometime soon.

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Cleo, did you bother to read that link?

These were POW camps that were horribly run by both sides, not "concentration camps".

I foget his name but there was a Southern German major immigrant that was hung by the North for his administration of Andersonville after the war. More than a hundred years later, it appears he did what he could for his prisoners but the South had little provisions to improve their lot. This guy took the heat and swung. I remember that the guy whose testimony who got that accomplished was never even there at Andersonville.

Another problem was that the North stopped prisoner exchanges to deplete the South's military manpower. Southern POW camp populations swelled beyond their capacity to manage prisoners as that Southern major had wished and requested time and again.

As for a few of the Northern POW camps they were not only mismanaged but some corrupt Northern soldiers took money from the prisoners. It was not uncommon for Souhern POWs to be seen shoppin' in the local communities if their families in the South sent money to them. This had to be stopped when it became know in that day's media.

As soon as I saw "Andersonville" in your piece, I knew this was gonna be pretty zany.

Cleo, as far as I know the US did not "invent concentration camps". That was the Brits durin' the Boer War. These were deliberately set up and specifically designed to kill men, women and children.

I respectfully suggest you read something besides Americaphobic hit pieces.

USAR

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EmVee, so far Bush has prevented any terrorist from huggin' me which I'm all for.

On the other hand, thank Goodness I don't go that way, so I wouldn't want to be doin' a whole lot of terrorist huggin' in the first place.

USAR

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You want to refute records approved by YOUR own goverment.

Go for it. The rest of the world is laughing at you.

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So the US of A invented 'horribly run POW camps'. OK......

Have to admit, they've 'improved' on their prototype no end - they don't even call them POW camps these days. And they put children in them.

Another problem was that the North stopped prisoner exchanges to deplete the South's military manpower. Southern POW camp populations swelled beyond their capacity to manage prisoners as that Southern major had wished and requested time and again.

I understand that problem could have been largely overcome if the Southerners had agreed to man-to-man exchanges of prisoners, instead of refusing to hand over negro 'slaves'.

The Boer War was after the US Civil War. Maybe they got the idea from the colonies.

<strong>Moderator: Back on topic please.</strong>

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Madverts:

Torture is torture. It's against the American way.

Against the American way, yes. American orginizations torturing and teaching other allies how to properly torture however......

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Folks,we are on day four of this international crisis.Why does Canada send child soldiers overseas,torture them,and keep them in Cuba?

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If you don't want to be questioned as a detainee in Gitmo, don't go around killing US SDoldiers, and don't aid and abet terrorists. I have no sympathy for this teen. He killed a soldier, and was sent to prison. Justice served....

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I have no sympathy for this teen. He killed a soldier

You don't know that. The initial report said that he didn't, and eye-witness accounts are contradictory.

Justice served....

Not without a proper trial, it isn't.

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The report seems to hold legitimacy that this kid did kill a US Soldier. If, cleo, you have proof -- PROOF -- otherwise, put up or shut up. Otherwise, this kid is right where he needs to be, in a prison, locked away from killing other innocents. And, yes, if he was captured on the battlefield, then he is duly in prison for a legitimate reason, trial or no. Justice served....

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Well, I've always said that if Canada won't do the right thing then it's defacto ruler,that would be the government of Great Britain,must intervene.

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If, cleo, you have proof -- PROOF -- otherwise, put up or shut up.

It used to work the other way round - you know, innocent until proven guilty? Now you demand proof - nay, PROOF - that a teenager isn't the anti-christ? Just because some US troops high on adrenalin after a bloody battle can't get their story straight about who did what to whom?

if he was captured on the battlefield, then he is duly in prison for a legitimate reason

POWs aren't held in prisons, they're held in POW camps. If he's a POW, then the treatment he has received appears to be way out of line.

this kid is right where he needs to be, in a prison, locked away from killing other innocents

IF we accept the story is true (and it's a big IF), he didn't kill any innocents. We're told he threw a grenade at soldiers who were attacking him with RPGs, rifle fire, helicopter rockets and bombs. That's what people do in wartime when they're attacked. They fight back. It's what you would do. It's what peace-loving, pacifist little me would probably do. It's not a war crime, nor is it an act of terrorism.

Makes one wonder what you guys think you are fighting for these days. Certainly not for justice, honour and the American way. Those have all been thrown out of the window in the rush to Get Even at all costs. You've dragged yourself back to the days of witch-hunts and lynch mobs. Suddenly anyone who looks squint-eyed at a son of Uncle Sam is devilspawn.

It's sad. Very, very sad.

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I don't know, cleo, if an enemey soldier is shooting at you, its pretty clear-cut that said enemy soldiers is guilty of beign an enemy combatant, and that is further indicative when said enemey soldier kills one of your buddies. The proof as it stands is that this 15-year-old killed a USA Soldioer, was captured, and taken to a POW camp. There's the proof. now, the burden of proof is on you, cleo, to prove he wasn7t there, was somehow innocent, or call into question the proof that the US Military does have. So far you, cleo, have offered opinion, and opinion, no matter how eloquent or not is never admissable as evidence. Get off your high horse, offer proof that disputes the US Military Account: put up or shut up. Simple.

So the Allies didn7t otrture or aggressively question captured Germans, Italians, and Japanese in world war two? If you, cleo, believe that they didn't, it begs the qestion, "What color is the sky in your world?"

What's intersting is that it was Canadian Intel that quesitoned him, and the US is being blamed? And how do we really know, cleo, that he was all alone and this innocent kid tossing grenades at the meanie American Soldiers, Helicoptersm, and planes that were blasting away at him in his innocence as you OPINE, cleo? SAo this 15-year-oldi somehow a pacifist now, who was merely defending his home against aggression....but wait, he's from CANADA!!!! Was he captured in 1780 or 1812?? After all, that's the last time the USA invaded Canada. And in those two instances, did Canadian Officials question American-held Canadian prisoners? Hmmmm... Also, if this kid was defending his home, Cleo, WHAT WAS HE DOING IN AFGHANISTAN IF HE'S CANADIAN??????????????

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Khadr is presumed innocent of any criminal charges unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt at a military commission (Press release by the USDOD, 1st Dec 2005)

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=9123

Blue Tiger - Shooting/throwing grenades at the people attacking you in a war isn't murder, it's what happens in a war. As I've said before, if this boy had been picked up in Sudan instead of Afghanistan there would have been much tut-tutting over the unscrupulous use of child soldiers, and he would have been sent off for rehabilitation, not locked away in solitary for five years.

Your argument contains enough straw men to keep a barn going through the winter.

No one is saying that the boy is a pacifist; he was born and raised in a fundie family. By all means rant and rave at his parents for taking him to Pakistan and then Afghanistan and putting him in harm's way. As far as we can tell the boy was simply doing what his father had told him to do.

Nor is anyone claiming that he was 'defending his home against aggression'. If you found yourself being attacked here in Japan, would you just curl up in a ball and wait until the attack was over, just because you weren't 'home'?

I don't understand what you mean about the US being 'blamed' for the Canadians questioning him. Canada appears to have been very backward in coming forward to do its duty by one of her citizens, which makes me think that maybe a Canadian passport isn't worth the paper it's printed on; but I don't see how that makes it OK for the US to ride roughshod over its own (once high) standards of justice.

And how do we really know...

My point exactly. We don't know anything except what the US military tell us, and they've apparently changed their story enough times, in this instance and others, to indicate that their word is less than sterling.

Would you like to tell us which POW camp he was taken to? Because the US insists that Guantanamo is not a POW camp and does not contain POWs.

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I think the simple answer to this one has been missed time & time again. If this boy was a combatant in a war then he should have been taken prisoner as a prisoner of war. But, if as the Americans say, he was not a combatant & his actions are to be seen as murder then he can, with a lot of witnesses to back him up, claim self-defence. A lot of men in American uniforms have just spent a long time trying to kill him & now one of them is walking towards him. I would call that self-defence. However, all that said, his age has nothing to do with it, his father took him to a war zone to fight & he fought, that makes him a combatant & as such he should have been put in a POW camp. What the hell is he doing in Guantanamo? Any useful information he might once have had in his head is long passed it’s use by date & judging even from the little we can read here I would say that he of no use to anybody now. He sounds like he has gone a little crazy & with his loss of sight added to that where is the point of keeping him? All the US has to do is take him to the states put him on a plane to Canada & let the Canadeans deal with his surprise arrival.

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Just for a little balance.

In July 2002, a Special Forces unit in southeast Afghanistan received intelligence that a group of Al Qaeda fighters was operating out of a mud-brick compound in Ab Khail, a small hill town near the Pakistani border. The Taliban regime had fallen seven months earlier, but the rough border regions had not yet been secured. When the soldiers arrived at the compound, they looked through a crack in the door and saw five men armed with assault rifles sitting inside. The soldiers called for the men to surrender. The men refused. The soldiers sent Pashto translators into the compound to negotiate. The men promptly slaughtered the translators. The American soldiers called in air support and laid siege to the compound, bombing and strafing it until it was flat and silent. They walked into the ruins. They had not gotten far when a wounded fighter, concealed behind a broken wall, threw a grenade, killing Special Forces Sgt. Christopher Speer. The soldiers immediately shot the fighter three times in the chest, and he collapsed.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11128331/follow_omar_khadr_from_an_al_qaeda_childhood_to_a_gitmo_cell

Most left wing rag you'd ever read. Junior here has some 'Issues',

By the the Sgt. Speer was a the Medic assigned to the unit man never even carried a gun as if folks here care.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I don't see the big deal here. Canadians (especially Tories) always need something to complain (and cry) about. The U.S. is kind of throwing Canada a bone here. No matter he is protected by Cuban laws.

I say try in another 5 years and Canada will take him back. Patience in needed in a case like this and lawyers need time to work out the facts. Look at the Anna Nicole estate = I figure 10-20 yrs to get that finalized.

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Cleo, although I'm not unsympathetic to what you're saying about child soldiers in Sudan, the critical difference is that Khadr was caught in a firefight in which US soldiers were killed. Of course child soldiers in the abstract are bad, but when they're shooting at you that trumps the abstract. It's unreasonable to expect unconditional support.

Given his bio on Wiki, I very much doubt he wasn't disturbed before his incarceration. Parental choices have severe consequences for kids, some of which harm them irreversably. My heart goes out to the kid in some ways, but I'm more inclined to condemn his parents anew for their choices than I am to pick up an armband. Being a parent yourself and having seen kids suffer because of their parents, I'm sure you understand what I mean. I feel sorry for him in principle, but not in specific.

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Kijimuna -

I don't think you and I are all that far apart on this. I'm sure his parents deserve a lot of the blame for the boy's predicament; but when all's said and done, he is (was) just a kid.

I also understand the bit about 'when they're shooting at you it's different' - but surely that applies only to the soldiers on the ground, not the whole darn US government? Elsewhere the US does show understanding of the plight of child soldiers. It isn't that big of a step to apply the same principle here, and the abject failure to do so smacks of double standards.

USAID .... has tried very hard to focus programs on all children affected by conflict.

http://www.america.gov/st/hr-english/2008/February/20080201170846ajesroM0.9215052.html

At the U.S. Department of State, child soldiering is considered to be “a unique and severe manifestation of trafficking in persons that involves the unlawful recruitment of children through force, fraud or coercion ….”

http://www.america.gov/st/hr-english/2008/April/20080403145159ajesrom0.242428.html

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-teenage 'youthful rebellion' gone horribly wrong.

Whoops.

USAR

0 ( +0 / -0 )

teenage 'youthful rebellion' gone horribly wrong.

Teenage yes, horribly wrong, yes. But this was no 'youthful rebellion'. He was doing what his dad had told him to do. A filial son. Pity that his dad was a fundie terrorist.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Bet he's bumming he went to Afghanistan now.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Cleo, so it's not his fault. It's anyone else's but his.

I see.

USAR

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I guess Canada doesn't care about people whose homestay adventures in Afghanistan ended with rendition to one of Bush's own personal gulags.

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USAR -

I doubt that you do see. If he'd been picked up in Sierra Leone or the Congo he'd have been rehabilitated, given access to education, physiotherapy and skills training, and the US would have felt good about helping him. The only difference is that he would have been throwing his grenades at dark-skinned soldiers from a poor country instead of multi-coloured soldiers from a rich country.

Alinsky -

'homestay'?? He was taken to Afghanistan by his own family.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

All this liberal BS about people, including teenagers, not having the ability to take responsibility for their actions is amazing. Anyone looking at the rise in youth crime, grafiti, etc. etc. has to realize that liberal policies of allowing any behavior by anyone anytime anywhere is the root of most of the decline in moral values and rise in crime around the globe. Time to take out the paddle and smack some sense into the miscreants.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Cleo, nice to see you contradict yourself twice in one page of responses to this story. And you didn't answert he question I posed: you aelege that this boy was defending his home. He's from Candaa. If he is Canadian, and defending his home, WHAT IS HE DOING IN AFGHANISTAN (or anywhere else in the world for that matter) KILLING US SOLDIERS IF HE'S DEFENDING HIS HOME? Put up or shut up.....

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Blue Tiger -

I have never said the boy was defending his home. Yet not only do you keep repeating this strawman you yourself cobbled together, you even put it in CAPITALS and scream it at us. Do you have reading disabilities, or did they teach you in school that if you repeat any rubbish often enough and loud enough, eventually it will be true?

Put up or shut up.....

You need to have a word with Sarge. He tells us the US soldiers were shooting children in the back so that I don't need to shut up.

As I mentioned earlier, I think some of you have completely lost the thread when it comes to what you think you're trying to defend. It's come a long, long way from Mom and apple pie.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Yes, cleo, you did say that this kid was defending his home. He is from canada. If he was defending his home, as you said he was, what was he doing in Afghanistan? And I'm not "screaming "it at "us" but "you", as, yes, you stated that he was defending his home.

So sarge is the end all to the situation with the US Troops in Iraq and Afghanistan? He is the all-knowing, all-telling source? He may know a lot, but there are far, FAR better sources that I know, and those sources I have make this allegation of US Troops "shooting children in the back" a load of rubbish.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Correction: you didn't say that he was defending his home, cleo, but you did imply that he was.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

you didn't say that he was defending his home, cleo, but you did imply that he was.

Perhaps you'd like to quote the bit where I 'implied' any such thing.

Because I didn't.

I'd suspect you of tilting at windmills thinking they were dragons, but there aren't any windmills there.

Why not just be a good kitty and fess up that you were mistaken?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Hey cleo, thanks for the reply. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you--doubtful that you're still reading this. Again, I don't see a problem in the contradiction you keep pointing out. The fact that the kid was instrumental--or at least proximate--to the deaths of soldiers pretty well means the government doesn't help him out. You don't intervene on behalf of teen runaways who mug and kill a person either. You try them as adults.

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