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Charged Blackwater guards ID'd: All decorated vets

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It's a shame Blackwater has brought so much misery to the people of Iraq and really made things hard for the U.S. military with their methods.

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The Bush-Cheney Legacy

Take brave and decorated soldiers and put them in a conflict without discipline or oversight and watch them fall apart. Later watch them try to reclaim the honor they lost.

It is sad and amazing what America has become under Bush-Cheney.

While expectations are high for Obama to move America back to sanity, I will wait for results and ignore the hype.

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Bad news. Being highly decorated means the Left wants them kept framed and convicted no matter what.

"buddha4brains" exemplifies what I am talking about:

Take brave and decorated soldiers and put them in a conflict without discipline or oversight and watch them fall apart.

No one forced these guys to do anything. But the Left and the media (I know, I repeat myself there) will make them both victims and disgraced.

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Being 'highly decorated' has nothing to do with it. If these guys are guilty, they should face the consequences.

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"It's a shame Blackwater has brought so much misery to the people of Iraq"

It's a shame the Blackwater guards came under fire at that Baghdad intersection from the scumbags who would torture and kill all of us without hesitation or remorse.

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Of course no one forced these guys to become mercenaries, my point is that the soldiers Bush and Cheney love to heap honors on - either rhetorical or actual - are considered by both war-avoiding hawks (in their youth that is) expendable as mercenaries. Bush and Cheney had a lot to do with setting the ground rules - or the lack there of - where these former "heroes" operated. Hence my calling this as part of their legacy.

You do not have to be a lefty to recognize the incredible amount of damage these two have done to America and to the military. Refusal to do so will only prolong the recovery of both. Perhaps that is what TooFarGone wants.

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TooFarGone at 10:37 AM JST - 7th December - Bad news. Being highly decorated means the Left wants them kept framed and convicted no matter what.

What the hell are you trying to say? You make absolutely no sence.

But the Left and the media (I know, I repeat myself there) will make them both victims and disgraced.

The left made them fire those weapons at unarmed citizens.

But enjoy your inane ramble. < :-)

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Ah yes lovely partisan thinking overrides common sense again. The facts of the story are 4 employees of Blackwater who happen to former marines are charged with committing a crime(s) in Iraq. Their guilt has yet to determined and until the court decides, any assumptions made by posters are just conjecture, as no one here was there.

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So Good lorb what is the common sense? Something did happen. Blackwater Contractors did shoot and kill civilians. While they claim self-defense there seems to be enough evidence to suggest otherwise hence the charges and the subsequent news story which we all opine on. Civilians where killed and there needs to be an accounting of that fact.

My take on it is the fact that Bush and Cheney were key players in creating the loose rules under which the contractors operated. This is part of their legacy and a shame on America. Of course that is opinion, something you seem to frown upon.

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The FBI of all organizations had determined that 14 of the 17 killings were NOT justified in this incident.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16288417

And Bush and others responsible for this Iraq debacle do share responsibility for this and other incidents. The fact is arrogants like rumsfeld thought that the iraq war would be a quick and dirty affair, go in, "liberate and be greeted with open arms," move out, and live happily ever after. Ignoring the advice of experts like General Shinseki (bless him he is going to be named V.A. secretary tomorrow, take that rummy), the bush administration realized that they bit off waaaay more than they could chew, and thought that using private contractors was the answer to increasing troops. As the U.S. is not signatory to Geneva and Mercenary conventions where mercenary type activity is specifically forbidden, the use of PMC's like blackwater was thought to be the answer. Estimates of their numbers ranged as high as 100,000 in Iraq at one time. With the lack of oversight and accountability, these PMC's were basically free to act as they please, shoot first.

Really, people need to be more sympathetic towards the Iraqi civilians. How would people feel if Iraqi private contractors went around shooting American civilians and killing them.

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Don't be confused by the name calling and diverting of attention my friends, the fact that these PMC's were utilized in such great numbers, and with little regards to oversight and accountability, can be traced to the bush administration. Authorization of force and conduct has little bearing on ACTUAL conduct. Don't let people confuse the two. For example civilian police are authorized to use deadly force in certain situations. That does NOT give them carte blanche to go around acting like cowboys and shooting everything in sight.

Moderator: All readers stay on topic please. Posts that do not refer to the Blackwater case will be removed.

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Just another dimension of the Bush-Cheney Iraq Debacle. Privatize the war, let these cowboys run amok, a law unto themselves. At the same time, there is also the issue as to why these folks were in Iraq as private contractors? Money? Well, one of the side effects of the War in Iraq is that US military families are under the hammer at home. "No Child Left Behind?" What sort of grass have you been smoking Curious George? It is bad enough that you start a war with no clear idea of how to win the peace. It is worse still when "decorated veterans" like these need to get out of the military in order to make a living. Shame on you George. What a chickenhawk!

And what about these Mercs? They should not have been put in a position that required them to whore themselves on the streets of Bagdad to start with. Moreover, the political current at the current time is such that they are going to be found guilty. What a disgrace! Then again, the overall blame does not lie with them, it lies at the feet of Curious George.

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and insurgent propaganda videos in Iraq.

Exhibit A as to why it was stupid for the U.S. to employ a mercenary force in Iraq. None of the accused was accountable (a dirty word in some circles) to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

The case faces some legal hurdles before it can get to trial. To prosecute, authorities must argue that the guards can be charged under law meant to cover soldiers and military contractors. Because Blackwater works for the State Department, not the military, it is unclear whether that law applies to its guards.

That would be Exhibit B.

Military matters should be left to the military.

Taka

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Just another dimension of the Bush-Cheney Iraq Debacle. Privatize the war, let these cowboys run amok, a law unto themselves.

Except that Blackwater got their start and big break in 1994, under Clinton.

Try again?

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Not talking about Blackwater as a company, talking about the fact that it is disgrace that people like these, decorated veterans, find it necessary to prostitute themselves on the streets of Bagdad rather than staying in the military. George and friends are great at thumping their chests (bring it on, etc.) when they are 10,000 miles away from the front line, however, what have they really done to the fabric of the US military? All these extended deployments, cut backs on non-essential expenditures (read family benefits), have forced people like these guys to sell their services to bottom feeders like Blackwater. What a disgrace.

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Except that Blackwater got their start and big break in 1994, under Clinton.

Try again?

Grow up. You cannot pin every screw up by Bush-Cheney on Clinton. Christ! you are just like Bush-Cheney, always avoiding and evading responsibility and blaming others. Be an adult and admit mistakes were made - it only hurts a little.

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"Grow up. You cannot pin every screw up by Bush-Cheney on Clinton. Christ! you are just like Bush-Cheney, always avoiding and evading responsibility and blaming others. "

Bush-Cheney gutted the military and made necessary the use of private security firms?

No, that would have been Clinton.

Even Obama won't rule out their continued employment.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/28/jeremy_scahill_despite_anti_war_rhetoric

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http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/dec/04/blackwater-joins-fight-against-sea-piracy/

Shake them lil fists

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It is said that one Blackwater employee at the scene in fact had to point his weapon at another simply to get him to stop shooting recklessly. Again the FBI determined 14 of the 17 murdered was not justifiable self defense or the like. And 3 of those were 'maybe' justifiable.

Again, people need to stop hiding behind this 'us and them' mentality that excuses the slaughter of innocent civilians, or diverts attention and accuses those of seeking justice as being 'america hating lefties.' Political affiliation has absolutely nothing to do with conducting yourself responsibly in another country. Shame on those that would use incidents like these to further their political agendas and biases.

Imagine if some Iraqi private security detail went around recklessly shooting all over the place like cowboys and killed 17 American civilians. Or even a fraction of that. There would be outrage and condemnation. Yet because these are Iraqis and the contractors Americans, it is perfectly allowable to excuse their behavior and rather dubious record in Iraq of shooting first and asking questions later. Ultimately hiding behind some immunity clause giving them free reign to further damage relations with Iraqis.

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rjd is an American hating lefty. :)

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TooFarGone you are equating pirates with Iraqi civilians. Little wonder you still support Bush.

Anyway, the issue is still the slaughter of civilians by American mercenaries and your sarcasm and sideshows won't change that.

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Well, TooFarGone....it an Iraqi had killed 17 Americans he'd be getting free legal advice from the JT regulars. Then we'd all have to invest time trying to figure out a "root cause" that would absolve him of responsibility. Naturally we'd have to deal with the posts talking about how Bush is to blame....oh, wait...that's being done here anyway. Scratch that. That happens in all cases involving any death.

We'd get countless posts telling us that these men haven't faced a trial yet and that so far there is no proof. We'd get posts about looking at evidence, keeping cool heads, not making any rash decisions, etc.

But naturally this is Blackwater we're talking about, not terrorists. Honestly, I think these guys would be better off changing their religion and claiming they killed innocent people on purpose. Lord knows that would end any and all discussion about guilt.

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TooFarGone you are equating pirates with Iraqi civilians. Little wonder you still support Bush.

You equate guessing with actual thinking.

I support Bush? I support my country, thank you. If Obama chooses to end Blackwater's role I'll support it.

I doubt he will. Can we have your prediction?

I base mine on information like this -

"I told him of a cable from a State Department employee who literally watched Blackwater heroes die while rescuing her from enemy attack in Baghdad - how she owed her life to them and would never be able to repay them. I then told him that when Blackwater was being dragged before Henry Waxman’s oversight committee back in February in a blatant effort to help a civil lawsuit, the State Department would not allow them to even quote from that diplomat’s message in order to describe what Blackwater is really about.

"I told Broder [of the New York Times] that our uniformed military are not trained to do personnel security missions - that it would be too costly and a waste of their time and talents. I reminded him that for every soldier deployed forward, it takes eleven support personnel behind them. Blackwater can support 50 security professionals with one support employee back in the States. I told him that for all the talk about the high cost of security contractors, the cost of having our soldiers do the job would be three or four times higher to the taxpayer. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/02/opinion/main3445252.shtml

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TooFarGone For all your self-praise about your ability to think the discussion has been the slaughter of Iraqi civilians and the lack of oversight of mercenaries, in this case those from Blackwater, which contributed to that slaughter. You want to digress and discuss Blackwater itself and the good that it did and may do, but do that somewhere else where that is the topic.

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While they claim self-defense there seems to be enough evidence to suggest otherwise hence the charges and the subsequent news story which we all opine on. Civilians where killed and there needs to be an accounting of that fact.

Charged with is the key, they have not been found guilty of anything yet, and one the corner stones of fair justice is innocent until proven guilty. The blackwater employees should be aloud their day in court before assumption of guilt are made, particularly when opinions are based on biased information of what happened as told by biased media(both left and right). It never serves the common good to get caught up in the "lynch em up" mob mentality, just the same claiming certain people can do no wrong. Seeking fair justice and common sense IMO go hand and hand.

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As with the bogus charges brought against brave US Marines at Haditha (and later withdrawn) I predict the accused in this case will be cleared of their alleged crimes and the "civilians" they shot in self-defense will be revealed to have been carrying AK-47s and using innocent Iraqi children as shields moments before they were shot.

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TooFarGone: "As with the bogus charges brought against brave US Marines at Haditha (and later withdrawn) I predict the accused in this case will be cleared of their alleged crimes and the "civilians" they shot in self-defense will be revealed to have been carrying AK-47s and using innocent Iraqi children as shields moments before they were shot."

Hahahaha... well, kiss any credibility you had remaining up to this point goodbye, my friend. Yes, do tell us about how the boys of Haditha were framed... and the raped and murdered little girl and her family were somehow militants, etc. You really do not care one little bit about innocent people so long as they are Muslim, do you? Or wait, let me rephrase that in your own thinking... they cannot possibly be innocent if they are Muslim, can they?

Well, I know you hate to hear about your own boys going in you seeing little proof of the genocide you want being prosecuted by your government, but there you have it. These Blackwater morons deserve to be locked up and the key thrown away for good, just like the terrorists they proclaim to be fighting, and in this case LIED about fighting. Good thing I don't believe in the death penalty, or I'd say they deserve that, too. These guys are just as bad as those in Mumbai, if not worse because they can get away with it more easily.

Hey, TooFarGone... what religion are the Blackwater terrorists? I'm curious if we can now condemn whatever religion they belong to, since by your logic all people in a group are the same as any individual in said group who goes bad. Errr... damn... maybe they were Muslim.

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smithinjapan - You should get down on your knees and thank your lucky stars that there are tough men like the Blackwater guards and U.S. Marines and, yes, Canadian soldiers, who risk their lives each and every day to battle these scumbags who would torture and kill you without hesitation or remorse.

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You should get down on your knees and thank your lucky stars that there are tough men like the Blackwater guards and U.S. Marines and, yes, Canadian soldiers, who risk their lives each and every day to battle these scumbags who would torture and kill you without hesitation or remorse.

no no no no no

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Notice that for some, there is absolutely zero expression of regret for the deaths of the Iraqi civilians involved in this shooting, as in, "yes it is sad that 17 civilians died, but i believe that these Blackwater contractors involved used self defense."

Nothing more needs to be said.

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"Notice that for some, there is absolutely zero expression of regret for the deaths of the Iraqi civilians involved in this shooting, as in, "yes it is sad that 17 civilians died, but i believe that these Blackwater contractors involved used self defense."

Just bring the proof.

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Except that Blackwater got their start and big break in 1994, under Clinton.

And they caused exactly, how many international incidents under the Clinton administration that ended up becoming a stain on America's reputation abroad?

Try again?

Yes. Please do. This time with some thought.

Taka

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And they caused exactly, how many international incidents under the Clinton administration that ended up becoming a stain on America's reputation abroad?

Since nothing has been proven yet the only stain is the one our Leftard media has made.

Try again?

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Taka313 at 10:09 PM JST - 6th December When logic fails, where do American radicals turn to: Bill Clinton Liberal media conspiracy. But...but...you can't judge me because I'm not quite as radical as their radicals. Heh.

Taka

I have a feeling that little nugget of truth is going to be awfully useful for me.

Taka

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Very good argument, bushlover.

So...as long as we're not as bad as the bad guys, we're good. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

No. Really.

Taka

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"Notice that for some, there is absolutely zero expression of regret for the deaths of the Iraqi civilians involved in this shooting, as in, "yes it is sad that 17 civilians died, but i believe that these Blackwater contractors involved used self defense."

Just bring the proof.

Let's see now, out of a total of 7 posts here by toofargone, absolutely zero posts expressed any sympathy or understanding for the deaths and pain of the Iraqi civilians. The same goes for the other posters here who are automatically siding with the blackwater contractors (even though it has repeatedly been pointed out that the FBI and other sources have stated that it believes 14 of the 17 killings were NOT justified and in no way shape or form is this even remotely similar to Haditha), a total of four posters and six posts, not any of them expresses any ounce of sympathy for the Iraqi's that were shot and killed, justified or not.

I rest my case.

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smithinjapan - You should get down on your knees and thank your lucky stars that there are tough men like the Blackwater guards and U.S. Marines and, yes, Canadian soldiers, who risk their lives each and every day to battle these scumbags who would torture and kill you without hesitation or remorse.

Sarge why the heck would you place Blackwater in the same sentence as our forces? These guys are getting paid a ridicules amount of cash to do whatever they want. Mercs should not be praised for running a muck and staining our nations name by their actions.

Sarge are you condoning the actions taken by these mercenaries?

Time to praise our boys and not these paid thugs. Just because they are an American company does not mean they have the interest of our nation in mind when they do their jobs.

These guys are not fighting to protect our Constitution these guys are fighting for their Company plain and simple.

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Exactly JoeBigs. I've seen other message boards where posters were actually taking the sides of the Blackwater guys in other cases over the words of the U.S. military personnel. The U.S. military personnel for the most part have conducted themselves with professionalism the best they can under the circumstances. There have been instances where U.S. military personnel have shot and killed what turned out to be civilians, but with the rules of engagement in place they did best they could and the killings were justifiable. Certainly they didn't go around blasting everything in sight with no sense of their surroundings or concerns for others.

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sarge: "You should get down on your knees and thank your lucky stars that there are tough men like the Blackwater guards and U.S. Marines and, yes, Canadian soldiers, who risk their lives each and every day to battle these scumbags who would torture and kill you without hesitation or remorse."

Sorry, sarge, but not only will I not get down on my knees and thank people for making war, I CERTAINLY will not get on me knees to thank my lucky stars there are hired MERCs out slaughtering innocent people with the OK of people like yourselves. If this were 17 Americans killed by a few Muslims in the US you guys would only reinforce your calls for the worldwide death of 1.4 billion people. Now you have PROOF (in fact, sworn testimony by various people, including one of the guards in return for leniency), and you still try to find ways to make these guys look good for being terrorists.

sarge, that's what they are... terrorists; as bad as the people in Mumbai who attacked innocents on business/vacation, for the sole reason of hatred.

TooFarGone: "Just bring the proof"

You've been given proof on EVERYTHING you've ever said 'bring the proof' for, and all you can do then is try and change the topic or pretend you never called for the proof in the first place. Meanwhile, you explicitly express your desire for the end of 1.4 billion people (or their lifestyle, at any rate, and have yet to say you DON'T want them eliminated) based on the actions of a mere few. You are defending terrorist scum here, TooFarGone, and then you wonder why Muslim terrorists sometimes try to claim their actions are based on 'defense' or 'revenge'. Tsk tsk, you are as bad as they for your excuses.

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TooFarGone: "A sixth guard who has been under investigation in the case was negotiating a plea deal with prosecutors."

Geez... too far gone... if there was nothing at all wrong done, why would this guy be looking for a plea deal? Hmmmm... and what about all the eye-witnesses? Oh wait! The latter are just Muslims, which is the same as dirt in your books, so they can't be trusted or believed, right? As to the former, if he gives any 'proof' like you request, well then he must be a dirty Muslim liar too, eh?

Hahaha... once again, you've shown without a doubt you have no credibility.

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Being 'highly decorated' has nothing to do with it. If these guys are guilty, they should face the consequences.

They should be re-decorated.

New for spring: prison stripes!

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Smith, you do realize that your above screed is almost word for word the rant that Murtha gave about the Haditha group, right?

To far gone prefers to believe the US view. You prefer to view the US view as evil and lies, each and every time. There is NO DIFFERENCE between what you accuse him of... and yourself.

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smithinjapan:

Geez... too far gone... if there was nothing at all wrong done, why would this guy be looking for a plea deal? Hmmmm... and what about all the eye-witnesses? Oh wait! The latter are just Muslims, which is the same as dirt in your books, so they can't be trusted or believed, right? As to the former, if he gives any 'proof' like you request, well then he must be a dirty Muslim liar too, eh?

But smith, I'm the one who supported regime change in Iraq. You wanted how many more decades of the Hussein dictatorship/

If a competent US authority finds these guys guilty then so be it.

Meanwhile, you explicitly express your desire for the end of 1.4 billion people (or their lifestyle, at any rate, and have yet to say you DON'T want them eliminated) based on the actions of a mere few.

I do? Where?

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Yea, that's what I thought.

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