China's zero-COVID restrictions curb May Day holiday travel

@Reckless

This is true but the really sad thing is that something rather similar happened in many countries with democratic regimes. Open discussion and critical point of views about the dramatic and scientifically unproven measures that were taken were systematically and falsely accused as disinformation. New Zealand, Australia, some states in US, South Korea, France, UK, Germany, etc. Japan had also similar things.

This is true but the really sad thing is that something rather similar happened in many countries with democratic regimes. 

Not really not, there is a huge difference compared with lockdowns done against variants that are much more susceptible to them, in situations where deaths were climbing out of control and with the purpose of gaining time for vaccination and other measures to be developed. This approach had solid scientific basis to justify it.

China on the other hand is still trying them against variants for which this is no solution, with low death rates that can be much more easily controlled with other measures and not to be able to vaccinate the vulnerable population but as a replacement of vaccination, which is why scientists and experts of the world do not support this policy.

Countries like New Zealand are the best example of how China could have adapted, first with lockdowns and a zero tolerance for COVID cases until the country prepared sufficiently for infections and the variants made unsustainable to keep that approach, switching to a less restrictive policy and avoiding the disasters that China had.

Beijing, which has tallied 321 cases in the past nine days, is restricting activity to try to prevent a large outbreak and avoid a city-wide lockdown similar to Shanghai. 

So, Beijing averages about 30 something cases a day over the last nine days.

More evidence that a zero covid policy is the best strategy to limit the number of infections.

Well done China!

This is the reason why New Zealand and Australia followed China's example, and also imposed strict lockdowns, which quantitatively kept the numbers among the lowest rates in the world.

And when those countries eases the restrictions, the covid infections and associated death rates skyrocketed, according to government officials from those countries. Anyone disagreeing with those facts is not a medical professional and is deluded by conspiracy theories..

In Australia, a medical expert commented on its zero COVID approach, stating there was "no alternative" to the hard lockdown.

So, Beijing averages about 30 something cases a day over the last nine days.

More evidence that a zero covid policy is the best strategy to limit the number of infections.

Having more cases by itself is a very poor index to judge the efficacy and specially the efficiency of a policy. Much more if this is still an ongoing outbreak and previous examples have ended in huge disasters by following the same method.

If the approach have a much higher cost in resources and have a higher negative effect in public health (as the zero covid policy is doing) it can actually be worse for public health than other options, preventing complications and deaths only as well as other policies, but causing more indirect problems and deaths would mean it is a much worse option.

This is the reason why New Zealand and Australia followed China's example, and also imposed strict lockdowns, which quantitatively kept the numbers among the lowest rates in the world.

Actually this is the opposite, because it became scientifically clear that variants make the approach unsustainable and counterproductive when compared with a much more scientifically based policy, which let them avoid disasters like those that the policy caused in Hongk Kong, Shanghai and apparently now Beijing.

And when those countries eases the restrictions, the covid infections and associated death rates skyrocketed, according to government officials from those countries.

That is still false, for six months after abandoning the unscientific restrictions the cases were mantained stable, what caused the increase was the appearance of Omicrong, which is also something that happened everywhere else, including China.

If your argument is that the explosion of cases can only be caused by abandoning the zero covid policy that means you believe China did the same, which obviously is not the case. The actual reason is clearly Omicron.

In Australia, a medical expert commented on its zero COVID approach, stating there was "no alternative" to the hard lockdown.

Do you have any source for this? because I can't find anything of the sort once the variants made it clear this is the wrong approach.

Outside of Shanghai, only 384 new cases were found in the rest of mainland China.

Incredible.

Even while Omicron is raging in the rest of the world.

virusrexToday  09:16 am JST

If the approach have a much higher cost in resources and have a higher negative effect in public health (as the zero covid policy is doing) it can actually be worse for public health than other options, preventing complications and deaths only as well as other policies, but causing more indirect problems and deaths would mean it is a much worse option.

But that's not the issue I presented. Very clearly the point is that a zero covid policy is the best strategy to limit the number of infections.

Actually this is the opposite, because it became scientifically clear that variants make the approach unsustainable and counterproductive when compared with a much more scientifically based policy, which let them avoid disasters like those that the policy caused in Hongk Kong, Shanghai and apparently now Beijing.

Beijing, which has tallied 321 cases in the past nine days,

Sounds sustainable. And 30 odd cases a day looks very productive. Whereas Australia and New Zealand saw their numbers zoom higher and higher as soon as they moved away from the zero covid policy, as government numbers show.

That is still false, for six months after abandoning the unscientific restrictions the cases were mantained stable, what caused the increase was the appearance of Omicrong, which is also something that happened everywhere else, including China.

So as you state, the numbers were stable after restrictions were eased, and then there was an increase. You do see how your own argument supports my simple statement that covid infections increased in NZ and Australia after moving away from the zero covid policy.

Unless you have statistics that show otherwise? But you don't, so you?

Do you have any source for this?

Yep.

Outside of Shanghai, only 384 new cases were found in the rest of mainland China.

But since Shanghai is in China it stil counts as a huge failure of the policy, the same as Hong Kong and likely aso Beijing, that is only beginning in the outbreak.

But that's not the issue I presented. Very clearly the point is that a zero covid policy is the best strategy to limit the number of infections.

That is the problem, you failed to present an issue that affect the qualification of a policy as the best or not. To say a policy is the best it also has to cause less negative effects as other that are as effective, which in this case is obviously not happening. You failed to consider something that deeply affect your judgment and invalidates it.

Sounds sustainable

To you? and what is your expertise about epidemic control?

So as you state, the numbers were stable after restrictions were eased, and then there was an increase. You do see how your own argument supports my simple statement that covid infections increased in NZ and Australia after moving away from the zero covid policy.

For this to be true that would mean that numbers increasing in other countries (like China) are due to the same reason, is that what you believe?

A much more clear reason is readily available, that is chronologically much closer and that have caused the same effect everythwere where it has been present. That means a much less likely reason, half a year apart and not present in other countries that experience the same surge of causes can be safely eliminated.

Can you prove that the increase observed around the world is always related to abandoning the zero covid policy? if you can't that means you can't argue this is the cause.

Yep

Failing to present them clearly points to the opposite conclusion.

Taking care of slowing down the spreading is a good measure, but turning it up to eleven as if it was two years ago will only hurt China in the short, medium and long term. In some way it is understandable because there is little else China can do since its local vaccine has low efficacy and the people that should be most interested in being vaccinated are really against it because they don't trust their government.

On the good side, this are good news for every other country that competes economically with China, so they must be really happy that the Chinese communist party choose to sacrifice their economic advantage for no reason.

Outside of Shanghai, only 384 new cases were found in the rest of mainland China.

If you believe them. I don't. With the CCP there is no incentive for public officials to report case numbers truthfully. In nearly every instance cities with sharply rising case numbers will have their leaders replaced and the former leaders exiled in disgrace. Honest reporting is career ending in China so the numbers public officials report are artificially low.

Very simply, zero covid policy results in lower numbers of infections and related deaths.

Nobody knows if that is true or not. China defines a death from Covid-19 differently than the rest of the world. For a death to be recorded as caused by Covid-19 in China it has to have been the only disease afflicting the victim when they died. Unlike the US where a death is attributed to Covid-19 if someone with one or more other medical conditions contracted Covid-19 and died, in China if someone with other medical conditions who was unlucky enough to also contract Covid-19 and die, that death is not attributed to Covid-19 but to one of the other medical conditions the victim suffered from. It doesn't matter to the Chinese if Covid-19 was the final straw that killed somebody, if they had anything else wrong with them it was that something else that killed them and not Covid-19. The Chinese have never been honest about their infection and death rates. As I mentioned above high infection rates are career ending for public officials so they routinely under report.