China dismisses FBI statement on COVID-19 lab leak theory

The Department of Energy uncovered new evidence. It was created in a lab.

The FBI and the Department of Energy are not in a compromising relationship like the WHO and China are.

Mao on Tuesday insisted that China has been “open and transparent” in the search for the virus’ origins and has “shared the most data and research results on virus tracing and made important contributions to global virus tracing research.”

Obviously untrue since the beginning of the pandemic and the treatment of the first whistle-blowing doctors.

China is a command controlled weaponized capitalist economy in the technocratic model of one-party states like Singapore.

It would be more trustworthy if it followed any democratic socialist values but it is beyond that and only pays lip service. So it is much more dangerous like modern oligarchical Russia.

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I remember a Doctor in China breaking the news of COVID in Wuhan three years ago and this is how the world found out about COVID.

He and others made videos of people dying in hospitals. COVID did indeed begin in China.

I remember very well.

We all do.

The FBI and the Department of Energy are not in a compromising relationship like the WHO and China are.

No, they are in a much more compromising relationship that obviously makes the claim (without any evidence to show) mostly irrelevant.

There is plenty of evidence that the origin was natural, neither the DoE nor the FBI have refute any of that evidence, which means the scientific discussion is unmoved and will remain that way until that supposed evidence is presented and examined by the scientists.

Mao on Tuesday insisted that China has been “open and transparent”

It's the truth. With Chinese characteristics.

There is plenty of evidence that the origin was natural

If you are so sure that the virus was of natural origin, then please enlighten us as to what as per you was the intermediate host?

Hendra virus jumped from bats to humans via horses and sufficient evidence pointed to the same when investigations were done after the outbreak in Australia.

MERS jumped from bats to humans via camels and again evidence was clear. SARS1 jumped from bats to humans via palm civets.

So which was the intermediate host in this case?

If you are so sure that the virus was of natural origin, then please enlighten us as to what as per you was the intermediate host?

Why would that be necessary? if enough scientific evidence is there for this then the lack of identification of an intermediate host does absolutely nothing to refute the rest of the evidence.

Humans evolving from ancient primates is a well stablished scientific theory, even if not every single step of the process has been characterized.

If you want to argument the natural origin is not the hugely more likely explanation you need much more than jsut say that there are still parts not idenitfied, you need to refute the rest of the evidence that points this way.

You can't? that means that the only logical thing to do is to accept this explanation as the most realistic.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8337

China has been “open and transparent”

open and transparent should not be used in the same sentence as China.

No, they are in a much more compromising relationship that obviously makes the claim (without any evidence to show) mostly irrelevant. 

To say the FBI and Department of Energy are in a much more compromising relationship than the WHO and China shows a complete general lack of understanding of the US government, and specifically, a lack of knowledge of the FBI and DoE history., and of China and the WHO.

A joint China-World Health Organization (WHO) investigation in 2021 called the lab leak theory "extremely unlikely". Sounds like a cozy relationship between those two.

The FBI called the lab theory likely in 2020. The DoE, because of new evidence, is just making their proclamation now; independent of the FBI's assessment.

There is plenty of evidence that the origin was natural, neither the DoE nor the FBI have refute any of that evidence, which means the scientific discussion is unmoved and will remain that way until that supposed evidence is presented and examined by the scientists.

Exactly what China is saying.

If there is so much proof of natural origin why was that also considered as “low confidence” yet must be accepted without question?

The FBI has “medium confidence” that it was lab based.

To say the FBI and Department of Energy are in a much more compromising relationship than the WHO and China shows a complete general lack of understanding of the US government, and specifically, a lack of knowledge of the FBI and DoE history., and of China and the WHO.

Since you only claim so, without arguing how this is the case you are recognizing the argument holds weight. Not only are the US agencies completely dependent on a budget from the government, they have also made unsuported claims that have been contradicted by science. This means they are demonstrating a much stronger compromise in their judgments.

A joint China-World Health Organization (WHO) investigation in 2021 called the lab leak theory "extremely unlikely". Sounds like a cozy relationship between those two.

Absolutely none of the evidence provided for the natural origin (and already linked in the comments) depends on the investigation, not even on the WHO but it is product of the general scientific community in general.

The FBI called the lab theory likely in 2020. The DoE, because of new evidence, is just making their proclamation now; independent of the FBI's assessment.

Neither have provided any evidence, old nor new, that would make the lab theory likely, much less more likely than the natural origin. Both only claimed to have this supposedly low confidence evidence, without ever presenting it for evaluation.

No evidence nor arguments to refute the scientific consensus either, which makes the claim completely worthless except as a political excercise.

f there is so much proof of natural origin why was that also considered as “low confidence” yet must be accepted without question?

What reference do you have that the accumulated evidence of the natural origin (such as the two reports linked in the comments) are "low confidence"? in reality they are taken as extremely solid scientific evidence that proves the natural origin is all but the only realistic possibility to explain the available evidence.

Also you are completely free to question the evidence presented in multiple scientific reports, the problem is that you expect for that evidence to be discarded without question just because someone else claimed the opposite without providing any evidence to support that claim.

I remember a Doctor in China breaking the news of COVID in Wuhan three years ago and this is how the world found out about COVID.

I am almost certain I and a co-worker with whom I shared an office in the US had Covid-19 before that poor doctor in Wuhan spoke up. In fact I am almost certain at this point that Covid-19 was circulating well before it took off in Wuhan. The symptoms my co-worker and I had were exactly those of Covid sufferers. We tested negative for everything because at that point in early November 2019 nobody yet knew about Covid-19 and there were not tests for it. I came down with it in September 2019 and tried to gut it out thinking it was just the flu but finally had to go see a doctor I was so sick. Same thing for my co-worker. Our malady was written off as severe bronchitis for lack of anything better to call it. But my physician, an old, experienced and wise PA looking back at her patient load at the time is now convinced we had a wave of Covid locally before the pandemic was ramping up in China.

Another physician I see agrees. She was on a tour in Thailand in the summer of 2019 and her whole tour group came down with a severe respiratory infection that today would be identified as probable Covid-19. In the summer of 2019 nobody knew. There is similar evidence Covid was circulating in Italy around that time as well as evidence of Covid-19 in waste water samples from Spain dating to March of 2019.

There is recent evidence from anthropologists that shows the Black Plague was circulating two or three decades before the Black Plague of the late 1300s. I strongly suspect Covid-19 has likewise been circulating in little pockets around the world before it really got going in late November 2019. I think anyone today who claims to know the origins of Covid-19 is not, to be achingly polite, fully informed. Nobody knows and nobody should pretend to know. Not yet.

What reference do you have that the accumulated evidence of the natural origin (such as the two reports linked in the comments) are "low confidence"?

Four intelligence agencies. You don’t trust the intelligence?

One agency had moderate confidence that the virus infected people after a lab incident, while four agencies assessed with low confidence that the virus had a natural origin, according to the assessment, which did not identify those agencies.

Four intelligence agencies. You don’t trust the intelligence?

That is not evidence, its an invalid appeal to authority. You said the evidence was qualified as weak, but when specifically pointed out to evidence considered solid you only bring a completely irrelevant quote that does not even refer to this evidence. This may surprise you but four unnamed agencies are not a valid appeal to authority on scientific matters, specially when no evidence is presented.

So, you are recognizing that your claim was not true?

“By rehashing the lab-leak theory, the U.S. will not succeed in discrediting China, and instead, it will only hurt its own credibility,” 

By a woman named Mao no less. (Bonus points for irony, China)

The Chinese have not been transparent and have destroyed the ability to investigate the origins of the outbreak by destroying the evidence.

Nobody trusts what they say and nobody should.

And there is as yet no evidence that Covid was "created" in a lab. That would mean that it was the subject of a bio-weapon research project. (The result argues pretty pursuasively against biological warfare by any country.)

IF that were to be proven true, it would be an inflection point (I feel like a more forceful term is called for but nothing comes to mind after only one cup of coffee.) in Chinese relations with, well.... everyone.

More likely is that the Chinese had found this virus and were studying it for possible vaccines when, through poor proceedures, it escaped. That makes more sense.

And then through a combination of vainity and a machiavellian sense of not wanting to be the only one hurt, it did not communicate openly about the situation with the world.

That is bad enough and cause enough to re-evaluate relations with China.

But at this point the idea of a "lab-created virus" does not seem plausible.

If we only had “51 intelligence officials” sign a letter saying it wasn’t natural origin? Posters here would be fine with that and claiming natural origin was “Misinformation”.

trust the intelligence!

virusrexToday  09:39 am JST

To say the FBI and Department of Energy are in a much more compromising relationship than the WHO and China shows a complete general lack of understanding of the US government, and specifically, a lack of knowledge of the FBI and DoE history., and of China and the WHO.

Since you only claim so, without arguing how this is the case you are recognizing the argument holds weight. Not only are the US agencies completely dependent on a budget from the government, they have also made unsuported claims that have been contradicted by science. This means they are demonstrating a much stronger compromise in their judgments.

You do not understand the relationship between the FBI and DoE, as you made clear by presenting a circular disjointed argument.

Your argument is because they both are part of the US government they are compromised? Funny.

And you further show you do not understand how this works, because it was sciewntists for the DoE that found the new evidence.

But if you want to trumpet the WHO-CCP party line--feel free!

Oh wait….goalposts are moving.

now it’s that it did escape from a Chinese lab but wasn’t “created” there so it’s still natural origin?

Has “natural origin” narrative been changed to include lab escape?

Natural origin: wasn’t created in any lab as a bioweapon. Was not released from the Wuhan institute, intentional or accidentally.

lab leak: regardless of natural origin or not, intentional or not- it leaked out from that lab.

wasnt this the narrative?

Because before it was the virus came from nature and was transmitted by animals to humans in an illegal wet market nearby= natural origin.

there was no lab at all involved in natural origin.

Now there is?

So the whole time you have been agreeing it came from the lab just like I said, you are just saying they didn’t “make” it?

There is plenty of evidence that the origin was natural

Exactly. Because if Chinese scientists could produce this virus like it was out of some Star Trek episode, then so could scientists in more advanced countries (and they couldn't). Remember, China copies everything they can and they are not original. Was HIV invented in a lab too?

 it did escape from a Chinese lab

Some people are taking the James Bond Moonraker movie too seriously. Just like taking Trump seriously when he said that injecting Mr. Clean cures COVID (and some Trump people did just that)

You do not understand the relationship between the FBI and DoE, as you made clear by presenting a circular disjointed argument.

Again, claiming something and failing to demonstrate it means you recognize this is just an excuse not an argument. Neither the FBI nor the DoE have presented any evidence to support their claims, and they have not even refuted the evidence that demonstrate their claims are wrong. Both are completely dependend on budget from a goverment that is currently engaged in a political move that make such baseless claims desirables. Since you have not argued that this fact is false you are accepting it as valid.

And you further show you do not understand how this works, because it was sciewntists for the DoE that found the new evidence.

Since they failed to present that evidence (which is the pillar of the scientific method) that means they are not doing their jobs professionally, they may not be even be actual scientists or from any pertinent field, which would explain why they make wrong conclusions and avoid addressing evidence that contradict them.

This is again just a baseless appeal to authority from people that have not demonstrated to have any on the topic.

But if you want to trumpet the WHO-CCP party line--feel free!

Both are irrelevant, the scientific community of the whole world is the one that supports the natural origin as the much more likely, based on evidence like the one already linked and that you have refused to address since it proves your personal belief as wrong.

The CCP will never in a million years admit to it. When China did know about Covid what did they do? China put their own cities under lockdown while letting their people travel all around the world.

What were they thinking? How can anyone call it anything else except deliberate?

there was no lab at all involved in natural origin.

According to the best explanation that is congruent with the available evidence this is the case, people may believe whatever they like, but the scientists of the world have clearly said there is no need for any lab to be involved and the natural transmission would still fit what has been found about the pathogen without problems.

The CCP will never in a million years admit to it.

Then why can't American Scientists (or any other non CCP country) create the same thing? Some people are watching too many BioHazard movies.

there is no need for any lab to be involved and the natural transmission would still fit what has been found about the pathogen without problems.

So you are saying natural origin with no lab. Nemo is saying natural origin with lab.

the FBI and the intelligence agencies are just saying lab leak and don’t know if it’s natural or created.

cant you see the (purposeful) confusion?

It is obvious that it came from China, and the deaths, the financial ruin, and despair from the pandemic is the Chinese government's fault!

The rest was the fault of Trump's sabotage and his incompetent and poor leadership skills by intentionally removing all of the safeguards that President Obama put in place to make sure the country was safe from another disaster. The train disaster in Palestine is another example of Trump's sabotage!

“It didn’t come from the CCP lab!”

a: there was no lab involved it came from nature.

b: it didn’t come “from” the lab because they didn’t create it.

these 2 are quite different but used interchangeably to claim it’s not Chinas fault somehow.

then idiots start screaming about Trump and there goes any adult conversation after that.

Both are irrelevant, the scientific community of the whole world is the one that supports the natural origin as the much more likely, based on evidence like the one already linked and that you have refused to address since it proves your personal belief as wrong.

Except for the scientific community involved with the FBI and Department of Energy (and other scientists "of the world") that found recent evidence pointing to a lab leak, or also support the lab leak theory..

But I do agree that scientists "of the world" in China are pushing a different narrative that for some reason non-scientists want to follow.

@nishikat

Exactly. Because if Chinese scientists could produce this virus like it was out of some Star Trek episode, then so could scientists in more advanced countries (and they couldn't). Remember, China copies everything they can and they are not original.

How do you know that other countries could not? Maybe these other countries ethically preferred not to create a more dangerous version of a naturally occurring virus because they understand the danger of such a virus getting free without a vaccine already developed!

Was HIV invented in a lab too?

Considering it showed up in several geographic locations at the same time and within 3 marginalized groups (Black heterosexuals, Gays, and Drug users) hated by racists and conservatives.

Countries and scientists have been able to clone humans for quite a while, but only a Chinese scientist has ignored all the ethical issues, cloned some children, and then bragged about it.

The CCP is now keeping that scientist hidden away to work on other research.

So you are saying natural origin with no lab. Nemo is saying natural origin with lab.

Not me, the scientist of the world are, with evidence to support that claim. The FBI etc have not provided any proof of their claims, so they can be ignored as irrelevant and unsupported until they do.

There is no confusion except for people that have a heavy antiscientific bias, the evidence is what lead to the conclusions, no evidence only means beliefs.

these 2 are quite different but used interchangeably to claim it’s not Chinas fault somehow.

Nonsequitur, none of those theories (specially the much more likely natural origin) in any way make the responsibility of the CCP disappears, there were clear protocols to be followed and agreements about sharing of information coming from the first SARS scare that the CCP completely ignored and that made the pandemic happen, trying to force a lab origin is actually what is beneficial for the government of China, because this is much more easily refuted by scientific evidence, so the Chinese can use it to generalize all other accusations as invalid, even when that is obviously not the case.

Except for the scientific community involved with the FBI and Department of Energy (and other scientists "of the world") that found recent evidence pointing to a lab leak, or also support the lab leak theory..

What scientific community are you talking about? people without names, degrees or experience claiming about evidence they have not shown? that would be the opposite of what the actual scientific discussion is about.

But I do agree that scientists "of the world" in China are pushing a different narrative that for some reason non-scientists want to follow.

Again, claiming only scientist in China support the natural origin, even when clear evidence of this not being the case already provided in the comments only show you already understand your argument is wrong so you have to push false arguments to avoid accepting it.

You still have provided no evidence that refute the clear proof of the likehood of a natural origin that have been linked, that means the only logical choice is to accept it as valid.

Regardless of where it came from, everyone, EVERYONE agrees that the Chinese were not even remotely helpful.

If only the head of the US Government had held Xi's feet to the fire.

Remind me, who was that giving him a pass again until it was politically necessary to blame China?

Hint: That was the same guy that politicized public health, vaccines and mask wearing in the name of "Freedumb!"

So, not quite the own that his rubes were hoping for....

@Black

then idiots start screaming about Trump and there goes any adult conversation after that.

Then idiots who claim a lot of business acumen complain because Trump did not win re-election like swore up and down that he would. Putting into to question how many other things that they are lying about.

Trump's loss is directly correlated to his involvement in removing the President Obama's safeguards and his terrible response once it reached the US.

Unfortunately, the other incompetent leaders like Boris, Shinzo, and Bolsonaro followed Trump's lead and made it a snowball affect!

What scientific community are you talking about? people without names, degrees or experience claiming about evidence they have not shown? that would be the opposite of what the actual scientific discussion is about.

For starters, the scientific community that you pretend doesn't exist because it contradicts your view that you share with the WHO and Mao.

The scientists who published an open letter in the journal Science in 2020 who supported taking seriously the lab spillover theory (they have names and degrees)

Dr. Fauci (a name and a degree) who said "it could have been a lab leak".

Scientists with the Department of Energy and the FBI--the focus of this article.

Wrong. This is just your opinion and is not based in any scientific journal or study

Two very solid articles have been already provided in the comments, this clearly demonstrates your criticism invalid and false.

What part of the evidence provided can you demonstrate is not solid and clear about the natural origin. Obviously pretending that the description of the research is not being copy pasted from the contents of the report is not an argument to prove this description is false. For that you would need to argue with arguments and evidence the description do not fit. If you can't do that then it is valid.

For starters, the scientific community that you pretend doesn't exist because it contradicts your view that you share with the WHO and Mao.

So, which respected institution of science and medicine (obviously with actual autorities in epidemiology, infectious diseases, etc.) say the lab origin is the most likely? Neither the FBI nor the DoE fit the description.

The scientists who published an open letter in the journal Science in 2020 who supported taking seriously the lab spillover theory (they have names and degrees)

So, when confronted with evidence published in 2022 your argument is that people in 2020 say this evidence is insufficient or false? how does this work in your mind? do these scientits have a time machine? The same applies to Fauci, one thing is to say something is possible when only very limited information is available, another completely different is to say this is even likely (much less the most likely explanation) once the evidence found clearly contradicts this explanation.

How do you know that other countries could not?

I sense another James Bond movie plot being written soon based on Bioterror. It's an international conspiracy.

within 3 marginalized groups

Women? heterosexual men? Women who receive anal sex from an HIV positive man have the same risk as men who do. It's depends on the component of the body exposed and how vulnerable it is to the virus. They taught this in 10th grade health class. This is not the Old Testament. It is science. Jerry Falwell is an evangelical entertainer on TV. He is not a Scientist.

the FBI and the intelligence agencies

I thought the Trump world hated the FBI and said they cannot be trusted because Trump himself hates the FBI and thinks they should be eliminated.

It is so nice to see so many confused people. Lab accident does not equal created in the lab. Lab accident does not equal any conspiracy theory you might have heard. Lab accident does not equal this virus was engineered in the said lab. People, calmn down and look up the definition of ”accident”.

At this point, I would be more likely to believe "incompetence and vanity" over "conspiracy and design" but if evidence of the latter were convincing, that would be a really big deal.

And it still does nothing to rewrite the history and incompetece of the US govt in power AT THAT TiME.

Nishikat

Women? heterosexual men? Women who receive anal sex from an HIV positive man have the same risk as men who do. It's depends on the component of the body exposed and how vulnerable it is to the virus. They taught this in 10th grade health class. This is not the Old Testament. It is science. Jerry Falwell is an evangelical entertainer on TV. He is not a Scientist.

Your strawman argument does not work with me. No one is arguing how HIV or any virus spreads.

Your response shows you have no clue what you are talking about so you are resorting to tomfoolery. Viruses always have an epicenter. HIV had multiple centers on different continents in marginalized groups (Blacks, Gays, and Drug users) hated by racists and conservatives. Like these CCP virus experiments, the decision makers did not really consider intersectionality. Everything is connected.

Tuskagee experiments saw the US government in the early 20th century deliberately infect Black men with veneral diseases. Who do you think they passed those diseases on to? They did the same research in South America. The have been doing it for decades in Africa.

The Nazis experiment on the Jews. The Israeli government deliberately sterilized Black Jews in Israel. Japan has done the same to its own people. The British and other countries "conversion therapy"

Some European scientist wanted to initially start human trials of the first COVID-19 vaccines on Africans.

All these facts are verified! Netflix is not!

History is our friend!

Who knows...

Perhaps not a accidental lab leak.. But a completely intentional one, for reasons whatever.

We common folk won't ever understand the mind of power hungry warmongering mad men.

Here are examples of why I don't necessarily believe Covid originated from Wuhan in November/December 2019

https://www.ub.edu/web/ub/en/menu_eines/noticies/2020/06/042.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53106444

China dismisses FBI statement on COVID-19 lab leak theory

Hmmm... a lot of us said from the start that a Corona virus emanating from a Coronavirus Lab is much more likely than coming from a fishmarket nearby. However, at the time we were lambasted by the local self-declared experts for being Trump fanatics and conspiracy theorists. Seems that now our experts are suddenly in complete agreement with the CCP....

The FBI could not take non existent evidence before a judge,why is this no different,it originated in China ,that is the only evidence

Here are examples of why I don't necessarily believe Covid originated from Wuhan in November/December 2019

These examples are of people without proper experience doing something they were not familiar with and ending up making mistaken claims that could not be confirmed later because of that

https://en.ara.cat/society/inaccurate-data-led-to-belief-that-covid-19-was-circulating-ahead-of-time_1_4095999.html

In short, for every test there is something called "detection limit" which represents the minimum amount that can be detected reliably and without significant false positives, the reports you use as a reference did not do this very basic determination and considered as a true positive any kind of amplification found, which is why they ended up only as preprints and could never be replicated by people doing things properly.

Is it possible the origin was natural but then weaponized or was being studied and escaped.

Everything is possible, but if something is unnecessarily complicated and implausible then the likehood of that possibility drops importantly.

Is like finding a pool of water on the street after it rains, if someone says "is it possible that this is actually from an ice meteorite of exactly the necessary size to reach the surface at the same time it melted completely?" it is theoretically possible, but the much more likely explanation is there already.

Monkey virus was weaponized or so i read.

Not from any scientific source, viruses mutate and adapt, that is how they still exist now, no evidence of any "weaponization" has been described for it.

Virusrex

Not from any scientific source, viruses mutate and adapt, that is how they still exist now, no evidence of any "weaponization" has been described for it.

The Europeans weaponized diseases to decimate the Native tribes throughout the Americas. You do not need to be a scientist to do that. The Tuskegee experiments did not involve some genetically modified variant. They just secretly gave Black men syphilis.

On the other side of the coin:

Highly infectious viruses are researched all the time because some virus's characteristics make them great tools to deliver cures for serious diseases.

So, these theories are really not that complicated or less plausible than everything just happened coincidently.

They are all plausible, but with a virus research center close to a dirty crowded food market then some theories become even more plausible than others.

There is plenty of evidence that the origin was natural, neither the DoE nor the FBI have refute any of that evidence, which means the scientific discussion is unmoved and will remain that way until that supposed evidence is presented and examined by the scientists.

...if enough scientific evidence is there for this then the lack of identification of an intermediate host does absolutely nothing to refute the rest of the evidence.

Nah, the only "evidence" ever presented is that because previous pandemics were (allegedly) natural, this one must be too. That's it, that's all.

But the released E-mails from Fauci's team indicate that they believed it was engineered, just days before they publicly announced it must have been "natural".

SARSCoV2 was clearly engineered in a lab, most likely at the WIV at Wuhan, however with help and funding from the US.

Hearsay evidence is the easiest impeachable info