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China owed more than $1 trillion in Belt and Road debt: report

46 Comments
By Peter CATTERALL

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The CCP is working on taking over the world with economic scams. That is bad, but still better than the American military adventures all over the globe.

-22 ( +7 / -29 )

China does seem to want to be the globe's sole empire, and for now is using its puppet state Russia to further military gains for the CCP.

11 ( +14 / -3 )

ZaphodToday 03:04 pm JST

The CCP is working on taking over the world with economic scams. That is bad, but still better than the American military adventures all over the globe.

The two are not linked. A world with neither would be preferable.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

Former Victorian premier Daniel Andrews wanted to sign the state up to this scam, having signed an MoU with the CCP and trying to do an end-run around the federal government before he deserted the economic disaster of Victoria, leaving his minions to deal with the mess. As bad as Victoria's finances are, if Andrews had his way by signing up to the BRI, it could've been even worse.

7 ( +10 / -3 )

Ha ha! - And China will get back fen on all the yuan it's lent - while at the same time experiencing a devastating economic crisis caused by overbuilding.

There is said to be over one condominium unit for every man, woman and child living in China today. Due to lack of other options in investment opportunities, most Chinese have sunk their savings into real estate whose values are now underwater.

A crisis is coming that will shake the world.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

EastmanToday 03:35 pm JST

when US century is replaced by chinese one?

Sorry, but a Chinese century will not happen.

This is due to the country's totalitarian brutality stifling creativity and entrepreneurship, corruption, alienation of other nations due to economic/military aggression and support for other rogue nations, high unemployment, crippling debt, plummeting birth-rate, real estate crisis, economic stagnation, brain drain, capital flight, and many other issues.

If anything, it'll be an Indian century (though one without Modi's nationalism I hope.) It could've been a Chinese century, but Xi blew it.

8 ( +14 / -6 )

China owns those countries and its resources. The US does not own any countries.

5 ( +9 / -4 )

Central planning has always been a huge success wherever tried; with the Communist Party of China doing this central planning, it is bound to be a success too.

(not hacked - above is sarcasm.)

5 ( +8 / -3 )

For at least the past 60-70 years, probably even from its very beginnings, foreign "aid" has more often than not been a scam, carried out for the benefit of the "donor" country. The US, at the height of its power, was the major practitioner of this kind of trick. (And yes Japan, we're looking at you too.)

If you're interested in learning more about this, I highly recommend "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins, a US citizen directly involved in US projects of the BRI type in years gone by.

It just seems like China has decided to commit more energy to this in recent years, while the US withdraws somewhat. Is this a sign of an irrevocable shift in global power? Maybe. Too early to say for sure?

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

The US does not own any countries.

But it has controlled the IMF and especially the World Bank, imposing its will on the world and its borrowing to make the world safe for its model of capitalism. I'm no fan of China but you have to be oblivious to this global financial and economic architecture to believe the US is not heavily involved in "owning" countries.

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

MoonrakerToday 04:58 pm JST

The US does not own any countries.

But it has controlled the IMF and especially the World Bank, imposing its will on the world and its borrowing to make the world safe for its model of capitalism. I'm no fan of China but you have to be oblivious to this global financial and economic architecture to believe the US is not heavily involved in "owning" countries.

Those who pay make the rules. And yes, we do help rid the world of communist nonsense.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Those who pay make the rules.

Then you won't mind if China does the same, will you? It's not about right, it's about might, right?

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

And China will get back fen on all the yuan it's lent

Most of the BRI loans are in US dollars. That's one big reason why China is so keen to get its money back, because it's real money.

If anything, it'll be an Indian century.

No, it will still be the American century. Over 200 countries in the world, and only one produces a quarter of the world's output. Guess who that is. It's a trend that isn't going to go away anytime soon, especially now that China's economy is floundering.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

A crisis is coming that will shake the world.

And bring CCP down!

4 ( +7 / -3 )

MoonrakerToday 05:26 pm JST

Those who pay make the rules.

Then you won't mind if China does the same, will you? It's not about right, it's about might, right?

If they do it in their own club which they already have, sure. Have at the loan shark game.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

That is a lot of bribe money. Some of it built a few things. Still a lot of bribe money that has to be paid back by the people who got nothing.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

They all become China's puppets on a string.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

With more than a trillion dollars loaned through its Belt and Road project, China is the biggest creditor in the world, a report said this week, with an estimated 80 percent of the loans supporting countries in financial distress, with the IS among them.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

You have to look at net worth and not only the profits a company makes. China overtook the U.S. back in 2021.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

The CCP is working on taking over the world with economic scams. That is bad, but still better than the American military adventures all over the globe.

Anyone that thinks China is nicer than America, or would be a better world leader is either naive or delusional. Long may the US stay on top because no next-best option even exists.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

quercetumToday 06:49 pm JST

with an estimated 80 percent of the loans supporting countries in financial distress

Yes, financial distress that the BRI has exacerbated even further.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

No, China is trying to get rid of its US dollars. Look up US tresuary bonds. It's down to 800 million. China is also trying to get rid of its US dollars by loaning in dollars but having payments be paid in yuan RMB.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

The borrower is servant to the lender.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

And no China is not collapsing. You've made posts where you seem to be in the know. This is just regurgitating propaganda. Yellen, Blinken, Kerry, Raimondo, Newsom, Zipse, Cook, Farley, Musk and so on visit China. Albanese is visiting China. Everyone wants money. China is flushed with cash. China is going to have Australia swimming in cash. Albanese trumps Morrison.

The China collapse is just like the Xinjiang genocide lie. Thousands of Palestinians and Israelis deaths and you've got photos and videos everywhere. Millions in Xinjian and nothing but satellite pictures of some factory in Arizona. If China is collapsing why would it be a threat to the world? If China is collapsing it would be Xi visitng countries asking for help and not the other way around.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

The borrower is servant to the lender.

I am very happy as a servant to serveral banks. Do you not appreciate capital?

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

Some people/countries like to paint these loans as bad for the borrowers??? When the IMF/World Bank, western institutions, failed to do their jobs, or, with so many conditions attached for/when doing its jobs, some others need/can step up, for developing countries. Or, are these western countries just like to see the developing world stay developing forever, perhaps, its easier to get the developing world to do its bidding/easier to acquire their recourses?? Before someone says that China is doing the same. At least, they do not go around heaping all sorts of slanders/accusations at other lenders. That alone earns it the benefit of the doubt.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Wow!

0 ( +1 / -1 )

ZaphodToday 03:04 pm JST

The CCP is working on taking over the world with economic scams. That is bad, but still better than the American military adventures all over the globe.

Try posting that part about the CCP inside of China and see how fast you get thrown into a dungeon. The American military that you hate is partly, if not wholly, responsible for the freedom you have to post that nonsense.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

China is flushed with cash.

You probably haven't noticed, being in your nice, censored, authoritarian bubble, but investors are pulling out of China at record pace:

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/business/china-first-deficit-foreign-investment-west-reducing-capital-3899901

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/business/china-stocks-global-funds-dump-october-morgan-stanley-3899951

And if China's prospects are as good as you say, the wealthy Chinese who are leaving in record numbers don't seem to have got your memo:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/chinas-billionaires-looking-to-move-their-cash-and-themselves-out

https://fortune.com/2023/06/14/china-millionaires-leaving-migration-common-prosperity-henley-partners-private-wealth/

The China collapse is just like the Xinjiang genocide lie.

No, it's really not. As far as I can see, the only thing China's economic morass and the Xinjiang genocide (no, not a "lie") have in common is that they were both engineered by Xi. And Xi will pay for them both eventually.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

but investors are pulling out of China at record pace:

And after the pullouts there is still FDI. You might want to step up a level and not just read what you are reading. Talk to people.

In the words of Jeffrey Sachs, yesterday someone with $2 million invested in China , someone with $20 million invested in South Korea and someone with $200 million invested in Japan.

Today China has become a $ 200 Million Nation. That means the $2 million and $ 20 million investments will be leaving and heading to Mexico, Vietnam and India. The $ 200 Million investments will be flowing to China in areas of AI etc. The Governor of California visited Beijing. California is after Japan #5 in the world. Look at the total picture.

On the other hand, it is the US Economy is at risk, a time bomb waiting to explode. When it does it will take the economy of the entire world with it. It will cause huge blows to every nation including China.

Yet it will also finish the US as a global power completely unless China steps in. China can invest $ 770 Billion today without needing a signature or getting into debt. China has $ 18 Trillion in savings alone

A huge swathe of Chinese Investments into USA , especially PUBLIC MONEY belonging to the Chinese People will allow the US to either delay this time bomb from exploding immediately (7–12 years) to around 40 years.

It's why so many US higher ups are visiting China again and again.

Xinjiang is obsolete, Ulysses. You all were saying millions of Uyghurs are being killed. Now you're witnessing only 10,000 Palestinians being killed and what about the millions of Ugyhurs? Where are the bodies? Besides the Xinjiang propaganda is already outdated and forgotten.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

China going down!

2 ( +4 / -2 )

There is an irony in there being so much Sinophobia in Japan.

But the reality is that 'sweeping up the foreign currency of debtors' is one thing, stealing (well, the polite term is sanctions and seizing it on 'behalf of the legitimate government' but there's no difference) the foreign currency of independent countries is worse. And as the BRI network countries growth in comparison to the countries that are economically bound to the White Bloc becomes ever more apparent expect the 'approval ratings' to show more positivity towards China.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

quote: massive carbon footprint and the environmental degradation caused by massive infrastructure projects.

Whereas the US ones and Biden's own for America have no impact? All infrastructure has an impact, but without it, we would be living in caves, have no food security and no economy.

Most debt collectors have mechanisms for getting their cash back via banks, but the BRI will have limited success.

Lending cash to poor people rarely ends well, and these were developing countries. Much of the cash will have been filched by politicians that will not have stuck around. Regimes will have changed. Western countries will not supply cash aid if it will just be (legitimately) used to repay debt if that debt is owed to China.

The developing world did need infrastructure, but too much cash will have been lost to corruption. And as we tribalise and the borders go up, the infrastructure will not be able to generate as much of a return as was expected, as the global economy slides.

They will most likely write off some debt for political favours, as the West do.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

The choice for these indebted countries isn't either China or the Western countries (USA). They can play each of them against the other and go in a third direction, gaining some from both.

Lending money to large, failing, institutions/countries is a mistake. Lending money to the poor inside these countries is over 80% win-win for everyone involved. If the loans are to women, not men, the rate of repayment increases to over 95%.

While we can't build stadiums or bridges with these micro loans, not just the family, but the entire community nearby gets raise up. Farms, mining, manufacturing, overnight inns/taverns for locals and travelers, a bazaar for exchange of local goods/foods, then as a community's economics improves, they can fund municipal projects - schools, water, sewers, electricity, telecommunications. To decide and manage all of this, a city council is setup. - BAM - politicians. Then they have a thriving local economy and need transportation - better roads, rail, ports, airports to connect to the rest of the country and world. Didn't anyone else ever play SIM World? OF course, the actual order for any of these things isn't a science.

The main thing is not to have the streets too small/thin. OTOH, don't make them too wide either like 9 de Julio Avenue in BsAs. https://www.amusingplanet.com/2012/06/9-de-julio-avenue-widest-street-in.html Think 5 lanes wide plus room for sidewalks on each side.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

There is an irony in there being so much Sinophobia in Japan.

It is the CCP-Chinese media pushing that with their anti-Japan and anti-Japanese false claims throughout China. The news local Chinese see are slanted against anything outside China these days thanks to Xi being xenophobic.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Concerned CitizenNov. 7 07:51 pm JST

The borrower is servant to the lender.

Not necessarily: if you are the US with virtually unlimited borrowing capability and issue standard bond contracts, the lender can't make too many demands on ya.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

OKuniyoshiNov. 7 08:39 pm JST

Some people/countries like to paint these loans as bad for the borrowers???

Depends whether major assets mysteriously end up under Chinese direct control.

When the IMF/World Bank, western institutions, failed to do their jobs, or, with so many conditions attached for/when doing its jobs, some others need/can step up, for developing countries.

Or China needs to open its criminal dealings for the world to see so others can steer clear of them appropriately.

Or, are these western countries just like to see the developing world stay developing forever, perhaps, its easier to get the developing world to do its bidding/easier to acquire their recourses??

Nobody benefits from a country being so mired in poverty that it can't even access its resources.

Before someone says that China is doing the same. At least, they do not go around heaping all sorts of slanders/accusations at other lenders. That alone earns it the benefit of the doubt.

China has earned no benefit of the doubt by conducting itself always in an underboard manner.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

RichardPearceNov. 7 11:30 pm JST

There is an irony in there being so much Sinophobia in Japan.

But the reality is that 'sweeping up the foreign currency of debtors' is one thing, stealing (well, the polite term is sanctions and seizing it on 'behalf of the legitimate government' but there's no difference) the foreign currency of independent countries is worse. And as the BRI network countries growth in comparison to the countries that are economically bound to the White Bloc becomes ever more apparent expect the 'approval ratings' to show more positivity towards China.

Yes, just two more weeks and China will be loved :)

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Xijing ping’s Belt and Road project challenge is a brilliant undertaking. He foresaw that graft and corruption would motivate developing countries to offer key access to ports and other transportation facilities as collateral free of debtor consent upon default. China would eventually own free access to ports and critical routes throughout the world for its commercial and military fleets.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

BRI was always a scam to take over other counties. Poor countries in debt and all assets ports roads whatever to Communist China basically forever now.

Or, all those countries will have to go to war against Communist China in order to absolve all the loans

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Iam not rooting for China in anyway

Sadly, Randy, there can be no nuance in this thread. You are either for US or agin US.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

You forget the infrastructure is the collateral. Handing over cash has not worked well. See IMF World Bank and Sri Lanka. China can lease the port it’s built from Sri Lanka the owners of the port.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

"These cash seizures are mostly being executed in secret and outside the immediate reach of domestic oversight institutions... in low- and middle-income countries," it said.

"The ability to access cash collateral without borrower consent has become a particularly important safeguard in China's bilateral lending portfolio."

Wow, that's scummy

1 ( +1 / -0 )

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