China plans to make Shenzhen a 'better place' than Hong Kong

I wouldn't consider almost 2 million people in a city of 7.5 million a "small minority". That's over a quarter of the population.

Good example of English media brainwashing and misinformation.

It's not 2 million, not even close. The English media originally reported that 1 million people were protesting, but the Hong Kong media reported that close to 250,000 people were protesting citing sources on the ground, includes multiple policeman.

Also, citing BBC. Really? Seriously? Peaceful protestors? Just Google Hong Kong protestors on YouTube and see how peaceful they are. Throwing bombs at the police, attacking innocent passengers, destroying property. You call that peaceful? BBC is a state-owned FAKE NEWS that have been caught lying millions of times. Don't even cite that brainwashing machine again.

The primary difference with Hong Kong is that it is already separate from China, and is being forced to join.

Hong Kong is not separate from China. Hong Kong is a Chinese city. One Country, Two Systems. ONE country. Not, two countries. ONE. The audacity to even talk about Hong Kong as a bargaining chip is astonishing. It's like i invade your home, kill your family and steal one of your rooms but let you keep the house. After decades have passed, and you are starting to grow bigger, i decide to give your room back in exchange for you promising me to keep the walls pink. You would be like "WTF? Just give me back my room, you thief!". What the Fake News English Media is doing with Hong Kong is no different than Mexico bashing America saying "Why is there so much homelessness in LA? We should have never given you back California". It's ridiculous.

If China is so sure of their system, then why not let Hong Kong go and build up Shenzhen as a rival?

Same thing can be said about America. If America is so sure about their system, why not let California go and build Nevada as a rival? If Spain is so sure about their system, why not let Catalonia go and build neighboring regions as a rival? The double standards and hypocrisy are really astonishing. If this was happening in America or any other "white" country (except Russia), we wouldn't even be talking about this. Protests in America calling for independence of their State are described as "rioters", "terrorists", "anti-democracy violence" etc.. The exact same scenario happens in another country, and the media jumps at the opportunity to destroy them calling them "pro-democracy heroes", "freedom fighters". It's disgusting. This is not journalism, this is not news. This is activism. Even if the US media is not strictly or directly controlled by the federal government, they are conforming to the government, pushing their narrative, and defending it mindlessly and obediently. There is no difference from the way the US media lies and the way the Chinese media lies. And don't even get me started on England or other countries. It's so much worse there, but that's besides the point.

10 years ago, I had high hopes for China, and told everyone it was moving in the right direction while the USA was moving in the opposite direction. No longer.

Why? Seriously, what do you want from China? You want them to adopt Democracy so badly? And then what? Who brainwashed you to believe voting is some sort of benchmark of human achievement? India is a democracy, yet look at what they are doing with their disputed territories. They are about to go to war with Pakistan. Their country is riddled with corruption and their standards of living are 50 times lower than China. Look at Japan. They have democracy, yet they are ruled by a single party for over 30 years despite people not liking it. What is this obsession with having democracy. You seem to think if only China has Democracy, everything will be great. No. There is no connection between the two. The goal is to have good governance, not elected governance. Voting should not be the goal. Assuring good governance should be the goal. That's why the US founding fathers only allowed adult working males who own property to vote, not everybody. That's why today we don't allow kids to vote, because we don't think kids are mature and smart enough to make the right decision. Well, what makes you think a bunch of low-IQ bums can make the right decision? Allowing everybody to vote have created the incentive for politicians to lie in order to get elected. US government is elected by a majority of minorities. They just promise each minority group what they want to hear, so they can vote for them. This system is not some sort of panacea as you seem to think. Also, the US founding fathers hated Democracy. The word Democracy is not even written in the constitution. It says Republic. Republics operate differently. They have fixed set of rights that apply to everyone, that are not subjected to voting. The FF also considered having the Senate be aristocratic and not directly elected in order to ensure they would be a check on populace policies pushed by the directly elected representatives.

Just because the government is elected does not necessary mean it will be a good governance. Again, look at all the countries around the world who have democratic elections yet struggle to move forward in their development.

I am not saying the Chinese authoritarian model is better than Democracy, i am saying their model is working very good for them, and it is gradually changing, and it will continue to change as their middle class increase. That's how societies change. While their government is not elected by the people, i would say their policies reflect the wishes of the people to a large extend. It's not black and white as you seem to think.

Each year, close to 200 million Chinese travel overseas, and they voluntarily go back to China. If they were living in some repressive regime, why would they want to go back? Millions of Chinese students graduate the best universities in America, and they choose to go back to China. Why won't they stay in the land of the free, instead they choose to go back to the land of the oppressed? Apparently because it's not the land of the oppressed. In China, you are free to do and say whatever you want so long as you don't threaten the government or try to organize a revolution or something like that. Yes, Americans may have more rights than the Chinese, but that does not mean the Chinese have no rights, or that they live in some sort of dictatorship hell like North Korea. Societies change gradually. Not over night, and certainly not by being pressured by a foreign country. The new generation of Chinese will have different expectations, they will put pressure on their government, which would have to respond. That's how societies change. Gradually. One generation at a time.

Also, while the Chinese government is not elected, i would say it has more incentives to keep their people happy than an elected government. The chinese government is very much afraid of the people getting angry with them. Their whole legitimacy is based on improving the economy and the standards of living. The Chinese have shown many times in the past they can riot, violently, if they are not happy with something.

I agreed to replace Hong Kong with Shenzhen lol. Shenzhen will suddenly have protesters and rejecting the government hahahaha very good idea. I wonder who in the smart guy in Chinese Communist party suggest such idea. Human that has tasted freedom will never want to be controlled again lol. All my China friends that lived in western countries for more than 3 years for studies, refused to go back to China. hahaha

extraditing people to china makes perfect sense to me, and will close a loophole that allows rich criminals to escape to HK and also will remove all the EU and US spies there... the sooner they do it the better, and no not one country will bat an eye .

Ganbare japan:

"Just like saying 99% of citizens in North Korea "support their government ". It means nothing in a one-party communist dictatorship."

In recent news, the 1% who said they did not support their govt have either changed their mind, said they misunderstood the question, or have mysteriously disappeared.

The fact is that, the majority of people in Hong Kong do not want to be independent from China, a small minority want, and they are trying to achieve that through violence.

I wouldn't consider almost 2 million people in a city of 7.5 million a "small minority". That's over a quarter of the population.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49386298

Spanish police brutally beat the crap out of them and forcefully stopped people from voting? Remember that? Why do you expect China to allow this to continue when you don't have the same expectations for others? 

I do have the same expectations of others, as I said. The primary difference with Hong Kong is that it is already separate from China, and is being forced to join. Not to mention the Chinese government is ahead of the pack when it comes to oppression, though most world governments seem to be headed in that same direction. (All the more reason people should be allowed to leave.)

There is no legal way to petition for freedom, thus the riots. The founding fathers of the US understood that freedom sometimes requires blood. Sad but true. If people quietly petitioned China for a free Hong Kong, the leaders of the movement would all be quietly persecuted and arrested until the movement died down.

If China is so sure of their system, then why not let Hong Kong go and build up Shenzhen as a rival? We will see which one is the most desirable in a side-by-side comparison (Shenzhen will have the advantage of support from China, HK will have the advantage of freedom.)

10 years ago, I had high hopes for China, and told everyone it was moving in the right direction while the USA was moving in the opposite direction. No longer. Now it seems as though both are in a race to the bottom. I wish the USA had more people like those in Hong Kong.

talaraedokkoToday  

01:34 am JST

are the Hong Kong rioters the new Chinese version of Lech Walesa’s Solidarity? It’s looking more and more like that. A precursor to the final lowering of the Soviet curtain. We’re in the last scene. How will it end?

This is more like it's gonna end up like Hungary-1956.

Now HK people want their own freedom but After 50 years, they will desperately want to live in parts of China.

HK will be abandoned, it's already a sinkhole.

If the people of Hong Kong really want to leave China, there is always a way to do it peacefully and in a legitimate way through a referendum.

And who will grant them that referendum? The CCP? You're insane if you believe they will allow any cracks to appear in their empire. HK will be razed or ruined before it becomes independent.

The Chinese govt. has done more for the Chinese people that any other government in their entire history. For just 10 years, they have lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, and turned a backward nation into the 2nd largest economy on Earth.

Can't argue with this, you are right. Unfortunately HK has a standard of living, education, health, infrastructure and 'happiness' far far beyond Shenzhen or anywhere else in China. They are standing up now because they don't want to be under the miserable boot of the CCP. Given the choice, who would?

Shenzhen is a 'better place' than Hong Kong, more GDP, more secure, more peaceful, more satisfying, more convenience, more advanced, more technology, more open, more freedom, more happiness, more fair, more human. Is it obvious which system is better ?

Hilarious. HK is an incredible, improbable place. A testament to well-run liberalism and capitalism. Shenzhen is a polluted dump. And everyone in HK knows that when the wind blows in from Shenzhen, you'd better wear a mask.

Shenzhen could never have Hong Kong’s class, internationalism, history, etc. It may be a place for a day trip but it’ll never equal the original. It’ll forever be the neighboring little sister city. For sure some things will be modern but then again that’s why HK is HK.

are the Hong Kong rioters the new Chinese version of Lech Walesa’s Solidarity? It’s looking more and more like that. A precursor to the final lowering of the Soviet curtain. We’re in the last scene. How will it end?

Personally, I already like Shanghai better than Hong Kong, if I had to choose between then two.

I've never been to Shenzhen, but I heard it's a relatively new city, being only a few decades old. Who knows, if they were able to transform this apparent old fishing village to what it is now, I think it will affect Hong Kong a bit.

I think in general, China's opening up since the 80s had eroded the economic prowess of Hong Kong.

Even if you don't trust any polls, just go and ask random people on the streets if they support their government. I guarantee you that 90% of the people will tell you they support their government

Just like saying 99% of citizens in North Korea "support their government ". It means nothing in a one-party communist dictatorship. They arent allowed to oppose their government. If they do , look what happened to Uighur, Falun Gong, Tibet, the list is endless.

Shenzhen is a 'better place' than Hong Kong, more GDP, more secure, more peaceful, more satisfying, more convenience, more advanced, more technology, more open, more freedom, more happiness, more fair, more human. Is it obvious which system is better ?

If people want to determine their own destiny, they should be allowed to, whether it's Catalonia, California, Hong Kong or Taiwan.

And i agree with that, but they have to do it in a democratic way, not through forceful separation. If these protestors want Hong Kong to be independent, fine, petition the government to allow you to organize a referendum, and we'll see how many people in Hong Kong want to be independent. The fact is that, the majority of people in Hong Kong do not want to be independent from China, a small minority want, and they are trying to achieve that through violence.

You might say - "the Chinese evil govt. will never allow a referendum on independence", and you might be right, but neither would the American govt. allow California to have a referendum on separation, nor the French one would, nor the Japanese would for Okinawa or Hokkaido, and, as we all saw, nether would the Spanish govt. allow it. Remember when the people in Barcelona tried to organize a referendum on leaving Spain, and the Spanish police brutally beat the crap out of them and forcefully stopped people from voting? Remember that? Why do you expect China to allow this to continue when you don't have the same expectations for others? This double standards is what i am against.

If the people of Hong Kong really want to leave China, there is always a way to do it peacefully and in a legitimate way through a referendum.

The whole world has ganged on China in the most animalistic and unfair way possible. As much as i am against any form of authoritarianism, i am even more against unfairness and double standards, especially deception. And all i see is deception, deception and more deception. Cunning, unscrupulous deception. I cannot support this. You have to remain fair and objective as much as possible.

The Chinese govt. has done more for the Chinese people that any other government in their entire history. For just 10 years, they have lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, and turned a backward nation into the 2nd largest economy on Earth. There are so many good things happening in China, and yet all of that is ignored. There are many protests in China that have changed local government policy, yet non of that is ever reported. Even if you don't trust any polls, just go and ask random people on the streets if they support their government. I guarantee you that 90% of the people will tell you they support their government, but non of that is ever reported on the "international" aka "English-media" news. I can't support this double standards and unfair attacks on China. My only allegiance is to the truth, and this is the truth as i see it right now.

^ And yet, when they are oversea, they exercise the same protest....against whoever speak ill of PRC. Those protest rights, etc. are not granted within China at all without party's approval or authorization.

A country will not go under just because people's protest. The leaders will not simply be removed from power just people speak ill of him/her.

The problem with China is that it wants respect and 'face", but those are earned not given.

What a joke. The awful, polluted city of Shenzhen will end up just like the rest of modern China built under the commies. Cheap, fake, and low quality. Apartments and shopping malls will be White Elephants.

Instead of hatching hair-brained schemes, PRC should give the citizens of HK the democracy they are crying out for. HK people built their own great city, and just want freedom, unlike mainland communist chinese who hate freedom and human rights.

expand people's participation in politics in an orderly manner under leadership of the Communist Party of China".

Tells me all I need to know. Do what the CCP says, or else.

without freedom or the rule of law then it's not going to matter. Chinese rule means nothing

Hong Kong needs to be set free

^ China had been trying to promote Shanghai to replace HK for a long time, but it still not happening.

Without a law system that can be trusted by international business communities, freedom of information, and freedom of money floating in-and-out, it won't be happening.

So the plan is for Shanghai to take over the Financial activities of Hong Kong and Shenzen just the other Business, leaving HK to be starved and run down... ?

If that's the case, look for the Port city no longer receiving any maintenance grants, and that will be the start of the decline. The Bridge to the mainland has already got problems, what a waste of money, wonder if HK will be charged for it's construction now ?

I hope the UK offers all HK Citizens UK Residency.

More likely, Xi is encouraging the outsourcing of the best jobs to Singapore. Working for a dictator is not ideal for the majority.

Great... so they'll also give Shenzen the ability to rule Democratically and will face zero chance of being extradited to Communist China in the future. Sounds better to me.

Can't make Shenzen better than Macau though. Gambling, women of all backgrounds & walk of life, decent nightlife, great food (incl portuguese tarts) and even some good old Portuguese architecture ('official' reason for any bloke's trip to Macau i.e. "why Macau? oh i've always loved portuguese architecture, a subtle mix of...').

Can't beat that!

It won't be as vibrant as Hong Kong though

Heck, China is now the 2nd largest economy over Japan, but Japan is still the more vibrant place to be for people around the world

Alex Einz: "The protesters might have some foolish ideals that they truly believe in , but the results wont be to their liking...."

Yes, Shenzhen will grow and become a hub as long as they continue to suppress Hong Kong. China tried for years to make Shanghai the economic hub above and beyond Hong Kong, and have failed, at least until the two-tier system of government lapsed. But there's an important distinction -- history and location. Hong Kong has all this stuff established, in particular tourism. Shenzhen has to build from scratch and ask people to change to there.

Without democracy? Cannot see that happening.

China is known to work fast, not long before Shenzhen overtakes HK as the main hub.

The protesters might have some foolish ideals that they truly believe in , but the results wont be to their liking....

Ok, but will Shenzhen embrace democracy and capitalism as well as HK?

Some people apparently have such a miserable life that they can't stop living in their fantasy version of the past, because it is the only thing that gives them sense of significance and superiority. China was the world superpower many centuries before people in England knew how to build a ship. 

Funny how you decry people living in a fantasy version of the past, and then go on to do the same for China.

The past is the past. The idea of nations owning territories that don't want to belong to them is simply warlord behavior dressed up as nationalism. The age of conquest is over - we all live on the same small ball of rock now. If people want to determine their own destiny, they should be allowed to, whether it's Catalonia, California, Hong Kong or Taiwan. It is simply barbaric and dangerous to all of us to maintain the primitive desire for conquest and ownership where it is not wanted.

The British never should have returned Hong Kong to this repressive communist regime.

Then China would've just taken it back by force.

The "repressive regime" is the one that stole the land in the first place, not the one whose land had been colonized. Hong Kong under colonial rule did not had Democracy or any form of rights. Those were given to them when they became autonomous region. So, ironically, China gave Hong Kong what they think China is taking away from them, and the people who they seek support from are the people under which they had neither Democracy nor Freedom. This is the power of propaganda and brainwashing.

Speaking of stealing lands, when is England going to return Northern Ireland to Ireland?

Some people apparently have such a miserable life that they can't stop living in their fantasy version of the past, because it is the only thing that gives them sense of significance and superiority. China was the world superpower many centuries before people in England knew how to build a ship. The only reason China never colonized any European country is because they weren't of any use to them, not because they couldn't. Just putting it out there for perspective... you know, perspective, the one thing missing from English textbooks and media, apart from correct information, of course.

China just doesn’t understand. It is the freedom oh Hong Kongers that have allowed it to prosper. Free thought allows for greater creativity and economic prosperity. It is authoritarianism and tyranny that stunts growth and scientific progress.

Don't care the details. But Central government made an announcement discriminating provinces?

As it is under the dictatorship of the CCP it never can be a better place. They may starve HK and drag it down to the same level but that is a very different beast.

and all the "free" speakers here... please let me know in which "free" country do you live at exactly ?

Yes BigYen and which country have the benevolence and tolerance make up ... maybe USA that sactions absolutely everyone by force and army? Seems to me, if China makes  Shenzhen work as better alternative.. that is simply winning.

Why would China need to support HK economy if HK doesnt see themselves part of China...

They could do it, though. They could economically starve Hong Kong, boost an alternative like Shenzhen. This is the Chinese Government we're talking about. Benevolence and tolerance are not part of their makeup.

Sure. And they may even do it.

Which would still put the HKers in a better position than being under Chinese control.

China's oppression will stall its growth at some point. When HK falters, the slack will be picked up by Singapore, perhaps by Bangkok and Saigon as well (depending on their governments, largely).

I'd rather be free in rags, than wearing Gucci without freedom.

Enough said.

The British never should have returned Hong Kong to this repressive communist regime.

It never made an agreement to return Hong Kong to any such regime.

The agreement they made was with an entity called Qing China, which no longer exists. So why didn't that make the agreement null and void?

The protesters might have some foolish ideals that they truly believe in , but the results wont be to their liking....

I'd rather be free in rags, than wearing Gucci without freedom.

Good. Then they don't need HK and can let the HKers have their freedom.

Yeah good luck with that. Hong Kong is far better than any other Chinese city.

China is known to work fast, not long before Shenzhen overtakes HK as the main hub.

The protesters might have some foolish ideals that they truly believe in , but the results wont be to their liking....